Hyrule...Keep it or ban it?

[Glöwworm]

A stage hazard that:
- appears out of nowhere in a random part of the stage
- has a big hitbox
- the camera doesn't even let you see it at times (especially when it's on one of the platforms)
- can potentially kill you, and if not, at least create an easy kill/massive damage opportunity for the opponent when you come out of it

Pretty stupid if you ask me. It would have been fine if it wasn't completely random, but it is, so.........

1. yes, it does appear randomly in the stage but it's not so sudden that you're engulfed by it the moment it appears (though, it does happen sometimes).

2. what?

3. this does happen but the tornado usually has a sound notifying you it's there. You may not know where exactly it is, but you know it's somewhere there. To me, it's a cue to send my foe flying in that direction or avoid getting grabbed.

4. don't get caught into the tornado?

You have to use the tornado to your advantage.

 

[Deleted member]

Argument for hyrule:

The **** tent balances the game because virtually every character can 0 to death in it, some have it easier than others. Dreamland Falcon, Kirby, Pikachu are pretty much guaranteed a kill on a hit and it is extremely easy to get a hit with them on Dreamland
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People whine about tornados too much you get a good 2 seconds warning to get out of a tornado if it spawns on you. Tornados can also break up the camping
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Kongo is probably the fairest stage by far, compared to dreamland and hyrule there are way less cheese combos (up-air x 6 up-b with falcon on dreamland), (b-throw 6 times in hyrule tent to up-smash)

No solid bottom makes it more interesting too both for the barrel and normal recovery

Variable platforms

I don't get why people say Kongo has so much 'weird crap' when Hyrule has way more **** that can *** with you as you play. Dreamland also is a fuken cheese stage where a fuken ****** using falcon can n00b their way to victory despite knowing very little about the game. I've seen this happen in the 64 tournaments I've gone to about 4 times. It makes very little sense why you would make this stage standard if it gives top tiers an extremely heavy advantage. Lower tiers at least have a better chance on Hyrule

You want to make Dreamland the tournament standard so newer players can see the fuken cheese and get turned off by the reverse-brawl gameplay?

The barrel can save your life but the better your opponent is, the more likely they will hit you as you come out. It is less of a hazard then Hyrule's center tornado
---


Having the first game guaranteed on Dreamland gives certain characters almost guaranteed victory of the set. once again, Lower tiers are better against higher tiers in Hyrule and you're probably gunna get a Dreamland--Hyrule--Dreamland set. Why force a set on a 'neutral' that overwhelmingly favors top tiers?


Overall, because theres about 3-4 not fuken terrible stages people just have to learn to deal with the cheesiness.

 

[Tambor]

I've probably played more in Dreamland than most of you. And while Falcon is great on Dreamland, I think Pikachu and Kirby are even better. And Fox is about the same level as Falcon. In fact, all Fox needs to completely destroy a semi-noob Falcon on Dreamland is SHDL.
If it was such a broken stage, a Link would never have gotten 2nd place in the last Japanese tourney.

 

[Glöwworm]

If it was such a broken stage, a Link would never have gotten 2nd place in the last Japanese tourney.

seems to me like this is a bit of a logical fallacy. yes, a good japanese link player placed second on dreamland. while this may hold true that link did indeed defy all laws of smash by placing second on dreamland even in the version where DI is non-existant, it doesn't mean everybody is going to be really good on dreamland just because he did. It may pave the way for "dreamland isn't really that broken because link can win too" ideas but you need to be really good to beat a falcon who relies on 0 to death combos.

EDIT: not to mention in dairantou smash bros, Link has a kirby-esque utilt which doesn't necessarily mean that's why he got to 2nd place but it's a factor that you gotta look at too.

 

[dch111]

Hyrule>Dreamland for teams and vice versa for singles.

This. Hyrule for counterpick in singles, neutral in teams.

It may pave the way for "dreamland isn't really that broken because link can win too" ideas

That's all that example really needs to show. Some complaints were about Dreamland screwing over some characters. We see here that it's not necessarily the case (and far from it since this was one of the biggest SSB tournaments, so I would caution against dismissing it as an anomaly). And the utilt still wouldn't give him a good match-up against the top four characters on the stage, which were no doubt prevalent at that tournament.

Edit: Superboom should change the title to "neutral or cp?" since next to nobody advocates banning it.

 

[Lawrencelot]

@KF: I didn't mean spacing bairs with Falcon. Spacing is fine. But in Hyrule, if both players play competitively, often the situation arises that one player should stay in place and wait, and the other player should not approach. That's what I meant with fleeing/camping/defending. I think the game should promote either you going to your opponent or your opponent going to you, or both.

@S2J: Kongo Jungle is not played much, I didn't play it much either but I think it's a good stage. That's why many people propose the 3-stage system (both players strike one stage out of KJ, DL, Hyrule)

 

[Nintendude]

I also like the 3-stage system for singles.

I guess the same can work for doubles too but other than tornadoes, Hyrule seems pretty fair in doubles.

 

[ballin4life]

Falcon isn't that good on dream land. He gets gimped so easily. Also Kongo Jungle is cool and all but it's so dark lol I can't see anything. Time to turn up the brightness on my TV I guess.

At the very least you gotta ban black falcon and black samus there though

 

[ciaza]

Falcon's strength's and weaknesses are amplified when playing on Dreamland. Sure he gets gimped much easier but I'd argue that he finds it much easier to combo thanks to the help of rising platforms.

I think it could be argued both ways on whether he gets better or worse but I think if he plays relatively defensively he gets an upperhand for the most part.

I'm sure better falcon's know better though.

 

[Mahie]

@Battlecow : Even if a decision you disagree with is taken, at least there's something done. Because it is obvious we won't be able to all agree with each other, in the end we need someone to decide and have the final word.

Kongo Jungle is a good stage but it can't be the only neutral either, because of the same camping argument. How can a Jigglypuff/Ness/Yoshi reach a Fox camping on the upper platforms ?

Another idea would be to force players to start on a stage depending on the matchup.
Let's say we have a Fox vs Jigglypuff. Fox has the advantage on both Hyrule and Congo, while it is more fair on DL. Therefore making them start on DL might actually give more chances to the Jigglypuff, because even if he wins there, then loses on Hyrule, he can counterpick again and actually win the set in a broken matchup.

That's a bit weird of an idea, not sure it would work.

 

[xMasterSnicklefritzx]

keep hyrule.

i agree about the tornadoes though..

 

[Limeee]

nevermind

just noticed the thread about backrooms

 

[Battlecow]

@Battlecow : Even if a decision you disagree with is taken, at least there's something done. Because it is obvious we won't be able to all agree with each other, in the end we need someone to decide and have the final word.

OK, so we decide. It's a bit harder to do with this many people, but not impossible; I doubt that all of the BR peeps would agree on this. It's not so much that a decision I disagree with is made, it's that a decision I had no say in is made.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i don't think Hyrule is banable. But I do think that it is weird that smash 64 has a bunch of viable stages and people only play on Hyrule and Dreamland.
Why don't we strike like the other smash games?

In other words, instead of Hyrule being the only neutral stage, add these stages as well.
Congo Jungle
Peach's Castle
Dreamland
Saffron City

i know people will complain that saffron city is too broken for ness recovering (But i find this as a moot point, as in, have you ever seen a ness recover).

But with 5 stages, there will be less stagnancy.
With 5 stages, the first person can strike 1 stage, the 2nd person can strike 2, and then the first person will just choose which of the last 2 stages to play on.

 

[HellxBound]

@ciaza - I'm no falcon expert but i think the pros far outweigh the cons for falcon on dream.

The tornado is at its most annoying when it's basically ledgehogging. Really can effect the outcome of the stock and thus the entire match. I'd put hyrule as a cp, and dream as neutral.

 

[Lawrencelot]

Yeah a 5-stage system works as well, but is more complicated for people that are not used to other smash tourneys. With 5 stages, peach castle and saffron or peach castle and zebes can be added to the 3 stages, dunno which one of saffron and zebes is more balanced

 

[rawrimamonster]

I think most of the point boom was trying to make is that the overall skill of the community declines while more and more people rely on the crutch of a stage that gives unearned pressure situations from a random uncontrolled element and a combo wall that even noobs can abuse (much like uairs on dl that was mentioned)

Like s2j said, you get a warning. BUT its not always avoidable and does create stupid pressure situations you probably would have not been able to create yourself without its aid. I've seen the tornado shift the tide of a battle WAY TOO MANY times. and easier combos.

And its not just the tornado, The sides give an advantage you wouldn't normally have either. While yes you do create the situations yourself, its still an element of the stage you wouldn't normally have anywhere else. Dumb **** like this is why (despite it having wallteching) temple was banned in melee (yes I know its a different stage, but same camping idea with even more space for runners)

Also in no way is the combo pit balanced, certain chars just have natural advantages no matter the stage they're on, and while yes everyone has a 0-death in there like its been pointed out. Others have a SUPERIOR ability to abuse the camping/combos that go on down there. If there was no specific advantage and everyone was equal:

1: we wouldnt have the tiers we have today (if a need for them at all), as a lot of the play is reflected from the most played stage (hyrule)

2: this all wouldn't of sprung up in the first place.

 

[The Star King]

i know people will complain that saffron city is too broken for ness recovering (But i find this as a moot point, as in, have you ever seen a ness recover).

People complain about Saffron because you can camp really badly on that stage.

 

[Nintendude]

@Battlecow : Even if a decision you disagree with is taken, at least there's something done. Because it is obvious we won't be able to all agree with each other, in the end we need someone to decide and have the final word.

Kongo Jungle is a good stage but it can't be the only neutral either, because of the same camping argument. How can a Jigglypuff/Ness/Yoshi reach a Fox camping on the upper platforms ?

Another idea would be to force players to start on a stage depending on the matchup.
Let's say we have a Fox vs Jigglypuff. Fox has the advantage on both Hyrule and Congo, while it is more fair on DL. Therefore making them start on DL might actually give more chances to the Jigglypuff, because even if he wins there, then loses on Hyrule, he can counterpick again and actually win the set in a broken matchup.

That's a bit weird of an idea, not sure it would work.

If a Jiggly/Ness/Yoshi is facing a Fox they should just strike Congo Jungle then. I think it's stupid to assign neutral stages for specific matchups. In Melee Marth is a lot better on Yoshi's Story, but they don't remove that stage just because someone is playing Marth. Instead, the opponent will just strike that stage like 99% of the time.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Like s2j said, you get a warning. BUT its not always avoidable and does create stupid pressure situations you probably would have not been able to create yourself without its aid. I've seen the tornado shift the tide of a battle WAY TOO MANY times. and easier combos.

What about the wind on DL. If you're shielding at the edge, it will make you do stupid stuff like falling down doing a nair >.>

Same deal.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

People complain about Saffron because you can camp really badly on that stage.

as if you can't do the same thing on Hyrule.

also, Yoshi vs fox isn't bad on Congo Jungle, it is a much worse matchup on Hyrule.

 

[Mahie]

If a Jiggly/Ness/Yoshi is facing a Fox they should just strike Congo Jungle then. I think it's stupid to assign neutral stages for specific matchups. In Melee Marth is a lot better on Yoshi's Story, but they don't remove that stage just because someone is playing Marth. Instead, the opponent will just strike that stage like 99% of the time.

My point was that if they're facing a Fox there's 2 stages on which they're ****ed up, the Fox just has to ban the 3rd stage and he's all good.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

lol saffron is worse than hyrule, stage should straight out be banned.

 

[King Funk]

My point was that if they're facing a Fox there's 2 stages on which they're ****ed up, the Fox just has to ban the 3rd stage and he's all good.

Matchups... matchups... =/

Not much we can do about some of them. D=

 

[rpotts]

Not going to go through and quote all the arguments I'm replying to.

Falcon can uair -> upb combo on every stage and the only stage that doesn't have platforms to make them even easier on is FD. The argument that dreamland is the only stage that augments falcons uair comboing is invalid. I think that all the staggered platforms/tent in hyrule makes them easier/longer than dreamland versions.

If a player chooses to play jigglypuff/ness/yoshi against a campy fox and can't figure out any way to beat him on any stage they need to switch chars or get better.

Tornadoes aren't as big of a deal as people make them out to be. I wish you could turn em off w/o gs but don't see them as a completely unavoidable hazard that breaks every game or something.

I stress the option for the two players to simply agree on any stage if possible.

Why do people feel that this needs to be decided anyway? No one really holds smash64 tourneys so i don't see the need for an agreed upon rule set.

I'm down for

Neutral-
Hyrule
Dreamland
Kongo

CP-
Saffron
Peaches
(Zebes mebe?)

I feel that any stage could be used as a tourney stage if both players agree on it and if excessive camping is truly monitored and violators forfeit after maybe 2 infractions or something.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

There are many smash 64 tourneys that occur. Maybe not in your area, but at most tournaments I host, there is usually 6 entrants to a 64 tourney (compared to about 8 melee and 12 brawl entrants). There are also 64 tournaments in other places. So... a generally agreed upon ruleset would be useful.

 

[Olikus]

See that many commenting on the Japanese tourney. Just a tip. Another time, at least watch the games before commenting confident about Link came second there because this and because that. He was the best player at that tourney. He didn't came second because he choose link. He defeated pikachus and kirbys also before samus and falcon in the top 8. Is Link better than Pikachu on dreamland then?

What we need are more than 1 neutral. If we switch from only hyrule as neutral to only dreamland as neutral, it would just benefit other characters and not solving anything. At least 3 neutrals. Maybe 4/5.

 

[asianaussie]

japanese link and us link are so different

stand under one of dreamland's platforms and threaten with that u-tilt, if someone gets hit at mid-damage (or low damage with floaties) with it you can combo from it so easily because of the platforms

also the recovery is a couple cms longer and higher (*bad joke about that making the recovery double*)

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i say keep it, it's a fun level.

also, rapetent.

 

[rawrimamonster]

What about the wind on DL. If you're shielding at the edge, it will make you do stupid stuff like falling down doing a nair >.>

Same deal.

Not entirely, the wind never creates an odd pressure situation out of your control like the tornado does. Yes the wind can outright kill you if you're someone like link or falcon, but unlike the tornado, the wind is timed and always predictable, AND the situation here CAN ALWAYS completely be avoided by simply not being an edge turtling/camping brawl***. So no, not even close to the "same deal"

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Not entirely, the wind never creates an odd pressure situation out of your control like the tornado does. Yes the wind can outright kill you if you're someone like link or falcon, but unlike the tornado, the wind is timed and always predictable, AND the situation here CAN ALWAYS completely be avoided by simply not being an edge turtling/camping brawl***. So no, not even close to the "same deal"

The tornado isn't that big of a problem unless you're in an edge pressure situation, as has been noted a few times already.

I think there are a decent amount of similarities there.

 

[King Funk]

I love to call the tornado Metaknight. =D

 

[rawrimamonster]

The tornado isn't that big of a problem unless you're in an edge pressure situation, as has been noted a few times already.

I think there are a decent amount of similarities there.

Tornado/pressure situations: ledges, center stage against someone with a projectile, getting pushed towards the edge of a pit as a tornado approaches you and someone doesnt let you jump over, ppl hiding in the sides of hyrule using tornado for cover, randomly spawning tornados creating free combos. and getting knocked into one by chance giving someone a unearned kill.

DL wind: getting blown towards the edge which is entirely avoidable...

 

[felipe_9595]

Zebes lava is metaknight, Hyrule tornadoes are more like the Richter from Symphony of the Night XDDDDDDD

 

[King Funk]

Zebes lava is metaknight, Hyrule tornadoes are more like the Richter from Symphony of the Night XDDDDDDD

LOL yeah. xD

But I thought tornado was more metaknight, because... tornado you know. xD

 

[felipe_9595]

But, Richter from Shympony of The night is the more broken character in the all history of videogames xDDD
Is like - Dash-dash-dash-dash-dash-dash o i finished the game xDDD

 

[dandan]

The tornado isn't that big of a problem unless you're in an edge pressure situation, as has been noted a few times already.

I think there are a decent amount of similarities there.

it is still very annoying when someone gets hit into the tornado on the second platform without anyone seeing it before. just random death.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

But, Richter from Shympony of The night is the more broken character in the all history of videogames xDDD
Is like - Dash-dash-dash-dash-dash-dash o i finished the game xDDD

you forgot ivan ooze for the most hax guy ever

 

[dandan]

if anyone knows Orlandeau from final fantasy tactics, they know how broken he was.
once you got him, all the "tactics" part of the game ceased.

 

[MattNF]

Zebes lava is metaknight, Hyrule tornadoes are more like the Richter from Symphony of the Night XDDDDDDD

But, Richter from Shympony of The night is the more broken character in the all history of videogames xDDD
Is like - Dash-dash-dash-dash-dash-dash o i finished the game xDDD

ROFLCOPTER xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD SO RANDUMB!!!!