Hyrule...Keep it or ban it?

[Battlecow]

or going into a RPS if they disagree.

I just googled RPS. The fact that there is a Rock, Paper, Scissors competitive scene amazes me beyond all belief. The mindgames must be superextraepic.

 

[Mahie]

I just googled RPS. The fact that there is a Rock, Paper, Scissors competitive scene amazes me beyond all belief. The mindgames must be superextraepic.

I did as well and apparently they make quite the money : http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhymeswithsausage/4701455889/

 

[Battlecow]

Holy ****. Holy ****. Holy ****. I'm officially abandoning Smash 64 and devoting my life to becoming the world's greatest RPS player. I will immerse myself in the mysteries of the human psyche, gain knowledge of game theory down to its most arcane level, and learn to tell merely by looking into a man's eyes the choice that he will make. I will become invincible.

 

[The Star King]

Holy ****. Holy ****. Holy ****. I'm officially abandoning Smash 64 and devoting my life to becoming the world's greatest RPS player. I will immerse myself in the mysteries of the human psyche, gain knowledge of game theory down to its most arcane level, and learn to tell merely by looking into a man's eyes the choice that he will make. I will become invincible.

I can see the future.

You're going to face me in Grand Finals for the title of All-Time RPS Supreme Champion. I will use a computer beforehand to randomly generate the choices I will use against you, and defeat you through sheer luck. Your hopes and dreams will be crushed.

 

[asianaussie]

gogo avalanche (rock rock rock)

yeah they have nicknames for the 3-hand sequences XD

 

[Mahie]

In my opinion Smashboards should have a RPS dedicated section like the Brawl one.

 

[Battlecow]

Took it to the social thread. So how 'bout that Hyrule, huh? Counterpick or what?

 

[th3kuzinator]

I can see the future.

You're going to face me in Grand Finals for the title of All-Time RPS Supreme Champion. I will use a computer beforehand to randomly generate the choices I will use against you, and defeat you through sheer luck. Your hopes and dreams will be crushed.

You are forgetting the part where Malva & Boomfan dont even make it out of pools due to superior mindgames

 

[Purtle]

Read through all the pages, interesting opinions and ideas.

I personally have been becoming less and less happy about Hyrule. It seems like most people I play camp. Not necessarily camp as laser camping, but people sometimes just go and hide down at the tent and do NOTHING except wait for you to come down.

I like dreamland a lot. I have not had a lot of experience with zebes/jungle/peachs castle etc so I can not speak for them. I am curious about them now and will probably try to play on those stages.

tl;dr I think Hyrule should be counterpick.

 

[firo]

I'm for Hyrule no longer being a neutral for competitive play. It's a very fun stage, but in my opinion it is subject to camping and a lot of other variables that can be avoided with dreamland.

For camping, I'd say that the left side of hyrule is even worse than the tent. At least in the tent, going down there means that you can't be brought off the edge easy since there are walls in the way. Seeing a pikachu or a kirby staying in the bottom left slanted area waiting for an approach can become very tough to break through.

The tornados are random, and can ruin recoveries and combos. The tornado on the platform is particularly nasty. While an argument can be made that comboing someone into the tornado is a competitive skill, I know everyone has experienced getting caught in a nado without knowing it was there, seeing it zoom across the screen, or having the nado be off camera, especially right after you have taken a stock off from someone and are heading back towards the center of the stage.

While gimping and poor recovery are legitimate concerns on dreamland, the presence of the platform near the ledge on dreamland and no nados in my opinion makes up for the fact that the stage is smaller as it allows for more recovery options and variety. Players might play more cautiously to avoid grabs and gimps. Sure some characters will get a boost, but we shouldn't keep a stage that isn't fit for competitive play in the mix if it truly isn't. The only possible concern I have for dreamland as the only neutral is that the stage is a bit small and that avoiding your opponent's invincibility frames without getting a free approach can be hard sometimes, but I don't see that as too big of an issue.

I think the desire to keep all characters competitive and balanced is one of the main reasons hyrule is liked. Even if dreamland becomes the only neutral and therefore disadvantages some players, I feel that is ok - not all the characters may be on an equal level field for the highest level of play as far as stages are concerned (like melee and brawl).

That being said, I'm all for Hyrule staying as a neutral stage for teams, and I think more discussion on Kongo Jungle is needed.

 

[Mahie]

I'll change my opinion a little bit.
There should be 3 neutrals : Congo Jungle, Dream Land, Hyrule, and for the first stage each player gets to ban a stage, then both players proceed to play on the remainder, or just agree to play on either of the 3 stages. If they can't agree on who bans first, then they can settle the argument with a round of Rock Paper Scissors.

 

[M@d-F!ghter]

actually the only thing that should be banned, is this thread -.- Hyrule is the best map and always will be. Amen

 

[King Funk]

I'll change my opinion a little bit.
There should be 3 neutrals : Congo Jungle, Dream Land, Hyrule, and for the first stage each player gets to ban a stage, then both players proceed to play on the remainder, or just agree to play on either of the 3 stages. If they can't agree on who bans first, then they can settle the argument with a round of Rock Paper Scissors.

I fully agree with this. That way, if you don't like Hyrule you can strike it and you'll have either Dreamland or Kongo Jungle which will usually appeal to you more. But at the same time... I think that would mean a LOT of the sets would actually start on Kongo Jungle for many matchups. Especially the ones where each character is better on HY or DL (see list below). But then I can also imagine people who just don't like Kongo Jungle at all and ban it anyway. So I still think Mahie's proposition would be well balanced.

My opinion on each character's favorable stage

Hyrule: Fox, Mario, Donkey Kong, Ness, Link, Samus
Dreamland: Pikachu, Kirby, Falcon, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Luigi

EDIT: Also, importantly, I believe there should be no stage banning after someone wins a round. We have too few stages to afford such a rule.

 

[Mota]

Wow banning Hyrule? What is this madness.

Best stage in the game imo

 

[dandan]

Dreamland: Pikachu, Kirby, Falcon, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Luigi

DK imo is even stronger in dreamland. yeah he can camp in hyrule but the advangtes he gets from dreamland are even greater, at least i think

 

[ciaza]

I agree with Dandan. DK can camp his balls off in the tent at Hyrule sure but DK is Gimp Master over at Dreamland. Especially is the opponent is not a speed-king at escaping DK's cargo hold. Also he can combo very very well on Dreamland.

Then again he is relatively easy to be gimped on Dreamland too.

 

[The Star King]

The platforms on Dreamland help DK more than anything else IMO.

 

[NixxxoN]

This isnt going anywhere. Making Hyrule as a non-neutral promotes very high gimping lame matches at dreamland. The tourney matches will end up being super lame/boring throw off > edgeguard > repeat. Hyrule bigger size, besides the camping, will always create a better and more varied matches with more diverse stuff and combos. Also DL Boosts the good recovery characters, as if pikachu wasnt good enough... >.>
And makes Link and Ness become "thrown-off-and-dead" tier.

 

[King Funk]

This isnt going anywhere. Making Hyrule as a non-neutral promotes very high gimping lame matches at dreamland. The tourney matches will end up being super lame/boring throw off > edgeguard > repeat. Hyrule bigger size, besides the camping, will always create a better and more varied matches with more diverse stuff and combos. Also DL Boosts the good recovery characters, as if pikachu wasnt good enough... >.>
And makes Link and Ness become "thrown-off-and-dead" tier.

Just like Hyrule makes quite a few characters become "lol Fox did 50% to me with lasers" tier.

What the **** lol. >_>

Very high gimping lame matches? What is that even supposed to mean? Why would gimping be more boring than camping? I don't get it lol.

WHO CARES ABOUT WHAT IS BORING..........

 

[Battlecow]

I've started to play DL on the server. It's pretty funny some of the reactions I get.

 

[NixxxoN]

Just like Hyrule makes quite a few characters become "lol Fox did 50% to me with lasers" tier.

What the **** lol. >_>

Very high gimping lame matches? What is that even supposed to mean? Why would gimping be more boring than camping? I don't get it lol.

WHO CARES ABOUT WHAT IS BORING..........

Fox lasers on hyrule.....? I thought you have options for avoiding them.
So yes camping surely can be boring, but those "throw off, edgeguard, repeat all stocks" matches can be probably as boring at least. In this game, most agree that grabs are kinda overpowered, and edgeguarding is quite easy against most of chars. So... both stages have pros and cons.
If you dont dont care about what is boring on a game that is supposed to be fun and entertain you... then you are a brawl player

Edit: also about tornados, theres always an option to create a "must play without tornados" rule or something

 

[Mahie]

Fox lasers on hyrule.....? I thought you have options for avoiding them.
So yes camping surely can be boring, but those "throw off, edgeguard, repeat all stocks" matches can be probably as boring at least. In this game, most agree that grabs are kinda overpowered, and edgeguarding is quite easy against most of chars. So... both stages have pros and cons.
If you dont dont care about what is boring on a game that is supposed to be fun and entertain you... then you are a brawl player

This isn't about fun. This is about competitive gameplay. It's all about who wins, and who doesn't, and you should use everything that's legal in order to win. This thread is just about that. Is it legal or not ? Why / Why not ? It's most definitely not about having fun.

 

[NixxxoN]

This isn't about fun. This is about competitive gameplay. It's all about who wins, and who doesn't, and you should use everything that's legal in order to win. This thread is just about that. Is it legal or not ? Why / Why not ? It's most definitely not about having fun.

...Ok so why are some complaining so much about camping then? its not about fun, its about winning...
Camping doesnt make you invincible or something you know...

 

[Mahie]

...Ok so why are some complaining so much about camping then? its not about fun, its about winning...
Camping doesnt make you invincible or something you know...

In some matchups it does. A Camping Fox against Jigglypuff on Hyrule means Fox has won. It's not even worth the try for Jigglypuff.

 

[NixxxoN]

In some matchups it does. A Camping Fox against Jigglypuff on Hyrule means Fox has won. It's not even worth the try for Jigglypuff.

Ok now you are talking about the matchups, there are f*ked up matchups everywhere including dreamland.

 

[King Funk]

If you dont dont care about what is boring on a game that is supposed to be fun and entertain you... then you are a brawl player

I should give up on trying to reason with you but I won't because it's absolutely ****ing hilarious the massively ******** **** you say all the time. =P

 

[Mahie]

Ok now you are talking about the matchups, there are f*ked up matchups everywhere including dreamland.

Of course, Pikachu Ness on DL is about equally broken. The whole point being are there more broken matchups / impossible situations on Hyrule or not ? If so, then it is not a neutral, at best a counterpick.

 

[NixxxoN]

I MAD!

lol seriously that brawl thing was a joke, chill out, I basically meant that i disagree about the "who cares about what is boring" and you didnt get it.

Of course, Pikachu Ness on DL is about equally broken. The whole point being are there more broken matchups / impossible situations on Hyrule or not ? If so, then it is not a neutral, at best a counterpick.

As several people pointed out, Hyrule makes characters more balanced because of the stage size/recoveries and stuff, so no, at least not more impossible situations than in dreamland IMO

 

[Lawrencelot]

-_-

I made a whole list of pros and cons of both stages, then I got an error. Basically Hyrule>Dreamland for teams and vice versa for singles.

About competetive play: me and the other melee players want a game where attacking is rewarded more than defending or fleeing. That's why people use L-cancels and stuff, and that's why brawl does not appeal to melee players. In Hyrule, you can just stay on the left or right part and wait for your opponent, and you get the advantage if he attacks (basically, if you play competitively you SHOULD camp in Hyrule, or flee to the part where you get the advantage). This is not right, according to this principle. In Dreamland, attacking gives a higher reward than fleeing or defending.

So I think what we should discuss here is the following: do we want a game where attacking is more rewarding than fleeing/waiting/defending (like melee, but even more so), or a game where camping and staying in / going to the right part of the map gives you the advantage?

Also, the 3-stage stage striking system should be done more.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Think back to that first ladder match we played- Falcon on fox on Hyrule. You were ahead 3 stock to 1, and then I stood on the left side and basically just Usmash'd you whenever you tried to approach. That's the kind of thing DL would prevent.

THat's cuz I don't like to camp. But if I did, I could just win out on time/excessive camping because i was ahead in stocks.

Also, I agree with what Mahie and King Funk said about 3 neutrals and banning one of them etc etc.

In some matchups it does. A Camping Fox against Jigglypuff on Hyrule means Fox has won. It's not even worth the try for Jigglypuff.

Hey man, I find this an interesting experience

 

[NixxxoN]

So I think what we should discuss here is the following: do we want a game where attacking is more rewarding than fleeing/waiting/defending (like melee, but even more so), or a game where camping and staying in / going to the right part of the map gives you the advantage?

Good question.

I think both attacking and defensive are all legit styles. I mean, you shouldn't be obligated to play attacking. If you feel the other one is more skilled than you, you should feel free to use defensive tactics to try to beat him. If you beat him and he falls in your traps, maybe hes not that good after all.
If I remember correctly, once JaimeHR said once that if you want to be a great player, you should be able to deal with camping tricks and defensive stuff and I agree with him.
But I'd say its unlikely that we have a consensus here.

 

[King Funk]

Hey Lawrence. Wait a sec. I have pretty much a problem here. I don't get why everyone here talks about aggressive/attacking and defensive/waiting styles. I think we should set a line between "defensive play" and "camping", because those are really two different things. The thread here is not whether Hyrule or Dreamland promotes offensive or defensive play. It's more about how Hyrule matches nowadays are heavily affected by camping tactics.

Defensive play can happen anywhere. Even on Dreamland. For instance, I might be playing Falcon vs a good Kirby player and I have to be extremely careful dealing with that matchup. For that I will mostly space back airs and wait for a good opportunity to hit my opponent and hopefully get a combo in, without ever approaching, relying on his first error. That is defensive play. And for the record, you're also probably confusing "offensive play" and "close quarters". Taking my previous example, when I play defensive and space back airs, I'm still in close quarters.

Offensive play is about taking the initiative of the game and striking first.
Close quarters is gameplay that has both players fight at close range.
While offensive play usually suggests close quarters, the latter does not always mean aggressive play.
Defensive play is about reacting on the opponent's initiative and actions to find an opening and punish errors.
Camping is taking control of a part of the stage or escaping from the opponent, using projectiles to keep him away.
Camping may be considered a defensive strategy, but defensive strategy is not always camping.

Also, this has not been said yet, and I hope it won't but...

Combos =/= Offensive

I could be spacing back airs for HOURS and then get a hit and do a combo. Would that be offensive? No.

 

[Metà]

I've been in support of this since I first started competing in this game. If this stage were in Melee, it would be straight up banned, not even allowed for CP. I understand that the two games are very different, but the things that ruin the stage are universal for the most part: camping/super defensive play and broken stage hazards.

 

[Mahie]

This conversation will never reach an end. This really shows why a Back Room is needed.

 

[P D]

when i think of smash 64 i think of hyrule, and thats just weird banning it then

dreamland is pretty boring and its gimp heaven, if you could tech walls it would be way better ha

keep it

 

[ballin4life]

lol at people saying it's impossible to beat someone camping the left side of hyrule

 

[Battlecow]

This ain't melee, first of all. We don't really have enough stages to make stage-striking enjoyable- in Falcon vs. Fox you end up with Kongokongokongo and all of a sudden everyone gets ledges of death every first match >.<

Second of all, how would a BR solve the problem? Like three people would decide for the rest of the community, and everyone who didn't have a say would be pissed as hell. Say it's Boom, Mahie, and Funk in the BR- Imnotpro and the other pro-hyrulers get screwed. The only solution is if we allow everyone who often contributes meaningfully- and then you have the same discussion minus a few posts. I could be wrong on this one, Mahie, so if I'm missing a key way in which a BR would help, please tell me.

Third of all, maybe someone should take a poll on this? I mean, obviously deciding it via poll would be dumb, but it would give us an idea of who wants what.

 

[King Funk]

Here's my proposition for a ruleset.

Neutrals:

• Dreamland
• Hyrule
• Kongo Jungle

Counterpicks:

• Peach's Castle
• Saffron City

1st round: both players strike one of the neutrals to play on the one that's remaining. If there is a dispute on who should strike first, do an RPS (or any little luck game that can sort out the problem).
2nd round and on: the player who loses chooses the next stage from the list of neutrals or counterpicks, then lets his opponent pick another character before picking his own.

There's no stage banning and no Dave's Stupid Rule (which means players can re-pick the stage they already won on).

 

[Glöwworm]

I've been in support of this since I first started competing in this game. If this stage were in Melee, it would be straight up banned, not even allowed for CP. I understand that the two games are very different, but the things that ruin the stage are universal for the most part: camping/super defensive play and broken stage hazards.

the tornado is not a broken stage hazard in my opinion.

 

[King Funk]

the tornado is not a broken stage hazard in my opinion.

A stage hazard that:
- appears out of nowhere in a random part of the stage
- has a big hitbox
- the camera doesn't even let you see it at times (especially when it's on one of the platforms)
- can potentially kill you, and if not, at least create an easy kill/massive damage opportunity for the opponent when you come out of it

Pretty stupid if you ask me. It would have been fine if it wasn't completely random, but it is, so.........