Hyrule...Keep it or ban it?

[Sempiternity]

But everybody loves playing at 50 FPS!

 

[Battlecow]

In response to my bestest buddy Olikus- DL is already neutral. It's just not the go-to neutral.

 

[Olikus]

I know Doug But seems to me that many here wants DL as the only neutral. And that would be terrible imo. More neutrals than 1 ftw.

 

[NixxxoN]

o.o

link is barely better at all in (E), slightly better horizontal recovery

you want to talk about better, talk about (J)

Link is def. better in the euro version, he has faster horizontal speed in general, and has not a slightly but clearly better (longer) recovery

BTW, SSB (E) is way worse than SSB (U)

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

This thread highlights all the reasons why 64 is dead and will remain dead. Ban hyrule? Are you KIDDING me?

 

[Fireblaster]

Only reason people wanna keep that crutch of a stage as a neutral is so that they can camp harder with characters with ****ty recoveries to make them not look as low tier. That's all it does.

People live too long on hyrule and the stage rewards camping and running more than any other stage except sector Z. And don't even say I'm complaining about defensive play, nearly every character I play with I play defensively. But when both players start playing defensively on hyrule it becomes a really really boring and long match, almost to the same effect that sector Z does it.

This isn't even addressing the anyone-can-combo tent or "oops you should have been a psychic and not done mario's usmash and now you're dead" tornados.

So what if dreamland remains the only neutral? Low tier characters with bad recoveries suffer because it's not as easy to camp in the middle of the stage anymore? There's a reason that they're low tier, and it aint just recovery.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Are you going to come up with something new or just keep rehashing you'r old argument every time some one comes up with a counter?

Hyrule is a bigger stage, it requires a different play style then Dreamland...thats it...stop milking it like you lose because low tiers and their camping is too good. Top tiers are also top because they can pressure and deal with situations like a good camper by using priority and projectiles to force people around.

You say its not about defensive play but "People live too long on hyrule and the stage rewards camping and running" is your only point...which is "defensive play is annoying and i dont want to deal with it"

Hyrule is not as "fun" to you or me...but it is NOT unfair for any reason...nados are annoying...thats it, but they are not so destructive to break the game...not like acid

 

[Fireblaster]

Hyrule is a bigger stage, it requires a different play style then Dreamland...thats it...stop milking it like you lose because low tiers and their camping is too good. Top tiers are also top because they can pressure and deal with situations like a good camper by using priority and projectiles to force people around.

Stop being ******** surri. I never complained about low tiers getting an advantage in hyrule over dreamland and now you show you dont know what the *** you're talking about since you're just attacking me instead of the point. I destroy low tier characters just as easily in hyrule as in dreamland, it just takes a lot longer. Also I play link on dreamland all the time now.

You say its not about defensive play but "People live too long on hyrule and the stage rewards camping and running" is your only point...which is "defensive play is annoying and i dont want to deal with it"

Maybe if you're stupid and can't read. I said it makes matches take too long and it really doesn't add anything of value except more boring matches and gay random tornados.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Stop being ******** surri. I never complained about low tiers getting an advantage in hyrule over dreamland and now you show you dont know what the *** you're talking about since you're just attacking me instead of the point. I destroy low tier characters just as easily in hyrule as in dreamland, it just takes a lot longer. Also I play link on dreamland all the time now.



Maybe if you're stupid and can't read. I said it makes matches take too long and it really doesn't add anything of value except more boring matches and gay random tornados.

lol you cant make a point without insulting eh? calm down fire...its ok

but honestly, you did it again,re-hash...gimme a new point pls


slow and boring is the players not the stage

 

[Fireblaster]

lol you cant make a point without insulting eh? calm down fire...its ok

Hi pot, my name's kettle

but honestly, you did it again,re-hash...gimme a new point pls

I don't need to give a new point when you can't counter my original ones

 

[Surri-Sama]

i dont insult...not in a looong time anyways

and i did

 

[ciaza]

I must admit I've missed Fireblaster's posts.

I agree with Fireblaster for the most part, when both characters play defensively it becomes a long and boring match. With that said, I've encountered this very rarely, most people I play against tend to play at least a bit aggressive. I know barely anything about the general matches over on Galaxy but what's the rough competitive play-style over there? Are most defensive, or aggressive, or a medium? If there is fair amount of defensive play I can certainly see there reason in at least making Hyrule CP but if very few tend to play defensively it'd be unfair on those that don't.

 

[Surri-Sama]

i think we need a Timer more then Hyrule banned...that seems to be the issue

 

[NixxxoN]

Lol @ complaing about boring at Hyrule.

The problem here is not the stage but the "play to win" attitude.

If you are playing 100% to win and use any kind of method that benefits you, matches can become boring at every stage. At dreamland its basically... 1 hit, combo to death/gimp, repeat

 

[Fireblaster]

Lol @ complaing about boring at Hyrule.

The problem here is not the stage but the "play to win" attitude.

If you are playing 100% to win and use any kind of method that benefits you, matches can become boring at every stage. At dreamland its basically... 1 hit, combo to death/gimp, repeat

You don't understand anything.

Everyone, it's ok to ignore what Nixxxon says, if you don't already do so.

 

[Surri-Sama]

common fire, you know to just ignore people you dont like instead of being a jerk

there is even a feature for it on smashboards :D

 

[NixxxoN]

You don't understand anything.

Everyone, it's ok to ignore what Nixxxon says, if you don't already do so.

LOL good old angryman fireblaster is back

can you please try to explain why you disagree or is it too much work for you to do...

 

[DemonicInfluence]

LOL good old angryman fireblaster is back

can you please try to explain why you disagree or is it too much work for you to do...

This topic is clearly talking about Hyrule in competitive play. Generally, that involves.... the so-called "play to win attitude." Therefore, your objections suck.

Is that clear?

 

[Surri-Sama]

Playing to win though, might also include playing boring...so **** sux


Dont blame Hyrule for your (whoevers) boringness

 

[Battlecow]

Fireblaster is unnecessarily angry, but he makes a valid point. Surri, the "Make new arguments" thing only works if you've satisfactorily refuted his original ones- which no one (especially you) has.

 

[Surri-Sama]

i think thats because you are not looking at my posts lol...

I've said that Boring games and Long games have nothing to do with Hyrule so much as they have to do with the people playing

Watch me vs Thegreginator on Dreamland...that mach was AWFUL boring and like 6 mins if not more...we both played super defensive (we had our clans to rep :o)

Point being Hyrule has Nados which are NOT that destructive (The DS they can cause is worse then the Nados them selves ) and since Defensive, campy and Boring are relative to who is playing more then the stage it self...Hyrule is NOT unfair, its annoying, its not unfair


It's not only Bad recovery Mainers that dont want it...i main Pika...his recovery is ok

 

[Battlecow]

Ummm? I think most people would agree that Hyrule encourages camping, and that camping lengthens and boringizes games.

 

[NixxxoN]

This topic is clearly talking about Hyrule in competitive play. Generally, that involves.... the so-called "play to win attitude." Therefore, your objections suck.

Is that clear?

I think you failed to understand me or something...

Play to win = can be boring on any stage, not only hyrule. Yes this is about competitive hyrule, does that mean its all good? Competitive hyrule play is the problem, but so is competitive dreamland play... all stages can be boring with the "play to win" attitude.


BTW On hyrule people live too long? Or in dreamland takes no time to kill the opponent? Its all relative

 

[Surri-Sama]

I've said that Boring games and Long games have nothing to do with Hyrule so much as they have to do with the people playing

Watch me vs Thegreginator on Dreamland...that mach was AWFUL boring and like 6 mins if not more...we both played super defensive (we had our clans to rep :o)

Point being Hyrule has Nados which are NOT that destructive (The DS they can cause is worse then the Nados them selves ) and since Defensive, campy and Boring are relative to who is playing more then the stage it self...Hyrule is NOT unfair, its annoying, its not unfair
P

Ummm? I think most people would agree that Hyrule encourages camping, and that camping lengthens and boringizes games.

This is why this debate is going no where...what more can i say about CAMPING LONG MATCHES AND BORING GAMES not having to do with banning Hyrule D:

You ban a stage because it either has a broken Hazard (Acid) that can alter a match WAAAY to much, or has a fundamental flaw in it's design, relating to how competitive players play (Cloud camping).

Hyrules Left side can be abused for camp & gimp styles, but remember ALL dreamland is made for camp and gimp styles . and the Tent area offers a range of things to EVERYONE including a camp grounds, a great combo area, a projectile defense, a projective OFFENCE (play a good link) and most of all, it offers a small upper area, perfect for harvesting the camping people below you. Neither side will cause a player to lose except through majority fault of their own...Camping will give you a slight upper hand...but it wont make you win every situation, the better player can adept to a campers style, and beat him at smash64.

Dreamland Encourages Camp and gimp strategies everywhere the stage is simply made for basic combos that can end the game fast, and thats the play style for that stage. the fact that i DO think Dreamland Hinders more chars on a worse level, would make me consider Dreamland being "less fair" then hyrule...not that i would ever say that lol

All in all Hyrule might give camping a boost, while Dreamland gives Quick, basic combos a boost, neither is a reason to ban either because it's more about who is playing then the stages...and if thats the case then maybe the game has something you dont like about it? Perhaps the Metagame thats adapted through out the years?


either way a timer solves all our problems

 

[asianaussie]

dreamland makes some characters not particularly viable

hyrule boosts all characters to an extent, some a lot more than others

can't we just *recommend* congo as the neutral, keep both hyrule and dreamland, and not have horrible campy matches posted on youtube

 

[The Star King]

@Surri Hyrule encourages every kind of camping. Wtf do you mean by DL encouraging a "camp and gimp" style? Lolwut? And bringing up a timer is worthless, because we can't do anything about that now.

I would support the Congo-Dreamland-Hyrule stage list where you strike, I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[NixxxoN]

@Surri Hyrule encourages every kind of camping. Wtf do you mean by DL encouraging a "camp and gimp" style? Lolwut?

DL "play to win" matches are a gimpfest, I dont see how people hate to be camped at hyrule but they dont hate to get gimped all stocks at dreamland

I agree on the Kongo-DL-Hyrule thing too btw

 

[Surri-Sama]

By camp and gimp i mean things like Falcons Fthrow--Spike...Ness Utilt --fair/nair/ w.e you want--spike

That kinda stuff doesn't happen as much because the stage is much bigger

Pikachu can still carry someone across Hyrule mind you but for the most part its harder to 0-death on hyrule then it is Dreamland..minus some Tent tricks.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I think you guys are forgetting about unpunishable camping spots or high risk punishing just to get them out of a position.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Are you talking about Samus and Jiggly abusing the air? Because im pretty sure I've covered the left side and tent area.

as for that...ok, it definitely helps them...samus a LOT actually...but this is only just the same as what Dreamland does for Pikachu and Falcon and Kirby...plus Samus is a bottom tier and jiggly is low..., so as far as "fair" is concerned again, Hyrule > Dreamland.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I think some people lost sight of the original idea of this, its not how boring the matches become. It's that hyrule's tornado gives unnecesary and unearned advantages spontaneously, and that the combo walls extend and gives combos sometimes outside of someones skill level, promote camping and give advantages to those who turtle and camp the most. If you're getting bored playing smash then why are you playing it? lol...

tl;dr tornados ghey, camping is ghey, this isnt brawl, go back to your nocombocampyturtlefloaty***fest.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Lol ill take that last comment and disregard is like i did Brawl buy selling it to the local pawn shop

but anyways, the tent gives good combos to those who dont know how to combo, and amazing 0-deaths to those who do, Rawr you can avoid this, you know how to draw out the campers, dont act like the tent is "unpublishable" it aint! Everyone knows the tent is bouncy, just like everyone knows the edges are closer together in Dreamland.

Tornados are ..annoying at best, they might give a slight advantage every now and then but you CAN, Hear them spawn, See them MOST OF THE TIME, combo into them purposefully as can your foe...and the nados are FAR less of a problem then Acid is...i dont know if thats still an argument but im just stating it anyways


Boring = people and opinion...Dreamland can be boring

 

[DemonicInfluence]

I think you failed to understand me or something...

Play to win = can be boring on any stage, not only hyrule. Yes this is about competitive hyrule, does that mean its all good? Competitive hyrule play is the problem, but so is competitive dreamland play... all stages can be boring with the "play to win" attitude.


BTW On hyrule people live too long? Or in dreamland takes no time to kill the opponent? Its all relative

This made very little sense btw.

Personally, the game I play in dreamland are much more campy than on hyrule, and involve a lot more air camping (which has been noted as unfortunate) =/

Maybe that's just my playstyle though

 

[rawrimamonster]

Lol ill take that last comment and disregard is like i did Brawl buy selling it to the local pawn shop

but anyways, the tent gives good combos to those who dont know how to combo, and amazing 0-deaths to those who do, Rawr you can avoid this, you know how to draw out the campers, dont act like the tent is "unpublishable" it aint! Everyone knows the tent is bouncy, just like everyone knows the edges are closer together in Dreamland.

Tornados are ..annoying at best, they might give a slight advantage every now and then but you CAN, Hear them spawn, See them MOST OF THE TIME, combo into them purposefully as can your foe...and the nados are FAR less of a problem then Acid is...i dont know if thats still an argument but im just stating it anyways


Boring = people and opinion...Dreamland can be boring

My comments were mainly for the people who cant play without it i.e. their sole strategy is draw you into the pit and when you wont go near it or try to draw them out they'll camp till the end of time or just uair then go back to hiding, and the problem with the tornado is it is NOT always avoidable, yes you hear it but depending on where the camera is situated you wont always see it and avoiding it is another situation.

If you;re knocked near it it creates a pressure situation, especially if its near a ledge or around the platforms. If you're knocked into it, its twice the free damage from the initial nado throw to the combo/hit that you'll get *****smacked with coming out of it.

The tent IS punishable...for people with projectiles. For others or for people who arent able to avoid the situations the pit and tent provide it gives the camper twice as many options for approach attack and defense as the person trying to draw them out. Is this fair? No, its unbalanced. THIS is how hyrule rewards campers and people dependent on it.

Back on tornados, yes it goes both ways. But also remember not all matchups are fair either, such as link vs falcon/fox or Mario vs pika, where as mario and link are decent chars on their own. In pressure situations provided by the tornado, fox falcon pikachu and others are better at controlling those situations. These situations cost you stocks and pecentage, both of which you could have otherwise used to win but was unbalanced by a random uncontrollable force provided by the stage. This is just by example but I think you or anyone gets the picture.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I can say most of what you say is true, but i still dont think it is justification towards banning it...because most of what i said is true as well...people without projectiles and still fake approach or what ever mind game you wanna play to put them off their "perfect" spot

nados REALLY dont do enough to be considered a game breaking hazard ...but thats just imo, what you said is correct, they can cause nice bits of damage from time to time...and they might even kill you every once in a while

 

[rawrimamonster]

I can say most of what you say is true, but i still dont think it is justification towards banning it...because most of what i said is true as well...people without projectiles and still fake approach or what ever mind game you wanna play to put them off their "perfect" spot

nados REALLY dont do enough to be considered a game breaking hazard ...but thats just imo, what you said is correct, they can cause nice bits of damage from time to time...and they might even kill you every once in a while

Lol I'd never ban hyrule, only thing in smash I'd ban is input delay, **** drives me nuts, hyrule in my mind is definitely counterpick but not ban lol.

 

[Surri-Sama]

i could agree with that if we did have a more fair stage but honestly DL is not it...congo is small like DL, thus promoting much of the same things but in a different way due to the higher platforms and ...thin floor? (easy to spike)

And Zebes...oh Zebes


Saffron for Neutral lol...jk

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Saffron has the exact camping issue as Hyrule, you have a bad d-air? Good luck trying to approach the bottom platform. You have a bad up air? Try approaching someone above.

But why should DL be the only neutral?
Why should HC be the only neutral?

Add those 2 stages, add Congo Jungle (as this is neutral as well).
You get 3 stages and the ability to strik.e
if this isn't enough, add Peach's Castle and Saffron to it, 5 stages. If a ness hates Saffron, strike it. If you hate how campy Saffron is, why do you want to play on Hyrule.

To note about that, I saw a response to why Saffron is not a neutral by I believe Surri (correct if wrong) that Saffron is not a neutral due to...campiness? Then why do you like Hyrule?

This is the simplest way to fix the stage list for this game, why just rely on one stage in a game where the majority of the stages are completely fine?

 

[dandan]

the problem i myself have with congo jungle is that it is so hard to see things on the stage.
samus practically camouflage on hit and the colors really strain the eyes.
maybe that's just me.

 

[Sempiternity]

Yeah, that's why I don't normally like Congo Jungle as well. Characters with darker colors (most have a dark theme) can be annoying to see. It's the stage where everybody has to scoot their chairs in a few inches to see.