Official Hyrule Hangout - Sheik Social

[Wasserwipf]

I'm going to play sheik no matter what, they can't nerv all her options and she has so effin many of them. I don't think theres anything that'd get me mad (maybe if they nerv Fthrow and Dthrow...).
What I'm really worried about is that they might nerv our tech and techskill thingys. I was already super mad when i figured 1.0.4 patched the BF ledge cancel, and I fear something like this happening again. I know, we don't have too much usefull tech but still, I want my stylin and messing around options

 

[saviorslegacy]

I h

How on earth did you get around the denied access? Did you find a smashboards mirror site that you could use or found some way to change the url but still was able to get on smashboards? I remember it took me a ton of trail and error to find anime and manga sites that weren't blocked on government computers but it took checking like every site listed in google results.

Well the difference between our 2 branches is you can go home in the evenings. I will call this ship home until next holiday season and I will not be going home nor have I for 2 months. Anyways, as a sincere bit of pitty the entire ship[ gets to share a dial up connection. yaaaaay
No seriously, like it took almost half an hour to load into here. The only reason why I am taking the time is that my online shopping is taking longer than originally thought. Like hours longer. I am skipping sleep just so that I can get my hands on a copy of Majoras Mask

 

[Creede]

I'll play her regardless of what they do, even if she's F tier simply because I play her because I like her... She just also happens to be great. :D

I'll play her for sure, just maybe not as commonly. I like her fluidity as opposed to the restrictions of someone like Ganondorf. I also love the character herself, but I love many others too.

 

[iLLEST]

I h
Well the difference between our 2 branches is you can go home in the evenings. I will call this ship home until next holiday season and I will not be going home nor have I for 2 months. Anyways, as a sincere bit of pitty the entire ship[ gets to share a dial up connection. yaaaaay
No seriously, like it took almost half an hour to load into here. The only reason why I am taking the time is that my online shopping is taking longer than originally thought. Like hours longer. I am skipping sleep just so that I can get my hands on a copy of Majoras Mask

I'm on my way home from the eastpac :D can't wait to get back on FOR GLORY and locals!!!!!!!!! i'm tired of playing the same scrubs on my DS all day lol.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Yeah, I feel the same as many of you. I started playing her before she had her S-tier reputation, and it was just because I like the character. Whatever happens, I'll stick with Sheik.

 

[?.?]

I'm just happy it appears so many smart players are going to stick with her regardless lol, sappy yes but true. I would laugh if they ended up inadvertently buffing her to try and make her appeal more to casual play. I played sm4sh with some casual friends recently and dear god one of them played sheik like twice and it was pitiful. I doubt this would happen but it would be quite hilarious.

 

[DEEK4Y]

I'm just happy it appears so many smart players are going to stick with her regardless lol, sappy yes but true. I would laugh if they ended up inadvertently buffing her to try and make her appeal more to casual play. I played sm4sh with some casual friends recently and dear god one of them played sheik like twice and it was pitiful. I doubt this would happen but it would be quite hilarious.

I'd like something like this as well even though its very far-fetched. The skill curve for sheik was so high when i switched from casual that I almost gave up learning her several times. It'd be nice to have something to ease the pain of constantly flubbing inputs and losing every match for weeks/months.

Edit: regardless of what happens I'll likely continue playing her. I am really hopeful that they leave fair alone because those strings provide me with so much joy..

 

[-dMT-]

You guys gotta remember - they pretty much make balance adjustments based on For Glory stats.

Anything can happen.

1.04 buffed Diddy. Buffed. Not much, but the only change made to him was a jab being stronger(?).

 

[exnecross]

You guys gotta remember - they pretty much make balance adjustments based on For Glory stats.

Anything can happen.

1.04 buffed Diddy. Buffed. Not much, but the only change made to him was a jab being stronger(?).

I feel like Sheik probably doesn't do that good on FG due to her only being good at high level play, but then again there are very few Sheiks on FG so maybe the few that do play her all know their ****. If it is based on popular usage, then Sheik would definitely be buffed. If it is based only on W:L, then I'm not sure.

 

[-dMT-]

WiFi has it's own tier list honestly... (if one could even imagine such a thing).

Characters with kits that benefit heavily from quick input and timing don't do so hot on FG, whereas characters that have very effective tools for punishing mistakes or very strong attacks that require any semblance of timing to counter tend to do quite well.

I can see Sakurai and staff looking at FG performance statistics, perhaps reviewing some games to see how characters are being played and if there are prevalent strategies they agree/disagree with and using the collection of said information to base their adjustments on for this patch...

and then of course not sharing any patch notes.


If that is in fact how they conduct these tweaks, then it wouldn't be surprising if Sheik did not receive a nerf at all, especially considering she already had a rather sizable one in the previous patch. I mean, if 1.04 had no changes to Sheik and only the DI/VI changes, imagine how devastating Sheik really would be.

That all said, I do expect some tweaks. Though I'd much prefer they mess with damage values rather than introduce any lag or change the way she feels. I like her general fluidity and it matches her character and it's the last thing I'd want to have removed.

 

[exnecross]

Sheik got nerfed in a previous patch, quite heavily in fact, and she was no more popular or OP on FG back then than she is now. Based on that, I do not think they will base the balancing on FG stats, but there is a chance that FG might have a bit of influence.

I secretly hope that they do base it on FG, because the chances of Sheik being touched then is far lower. But over all, it would be worse for the game if they did that. Regardless, I'm in the camp that Sheik does not need to be nerfed in any way, and not just because she is my main.

 

[Zankoku]

only being good at high level play

what

lol

Sheik has enough straightforward qualities to perform well at practically any level.

 

[exnecross]

what

lol

Sheik has enough straightforward qualities to perform well at practically any level.

This is untrue. Players of average skill level will have a much harder time with Sheik than most other (if not all other) characters. Sheik is a unique character that is not limited by things such as lag, meaning it is all on you. If you cannot string combos, or if you drop them often, you will perform abysmally. If you do not make full use of her extraordinary ability to punish, you will perform abysmally. If you do not properly edge guard, you will perform abysmally. Her low damage and low kill power demands that the person behind Sheik make full use of her tools in order to succeed, whether in a casual setting (relative to the other casuals, of course) or a competitive one. No person who falls under the generally agreed upon definition of "average" will meet these criteria.

Sheik is not casual friendly. I am surprised that there are a few people who actually think that. However, popular belief definitely sides with the fact that Sheik is garbage if not played correctly. Her high skill requirement (relative to the rest of the cast) often makes hopeful Sheik learners change character due to frustration caused by inability to perform at the level they feel they should be performing at. She has a steep learning curve which rewards those who put in the effort.

Unfortunately, if nerfed significantly enough, a good chunk of people will no longer be making that effort.

 

[Zankoku]

You're essentially saying that you need a grasp on the fundamentals of Smash gameplay to play Sheik strongly. I don't think the ability to string combos, use low-recovery moves effectively, or take advantage of "extraordinary ability" to punish is anywhere near advanced play. Considering the amount of work plenty of other characters need to do to make up for not having said natural strength of character, it's amusing to me that Sheik is considered a "difficult" character by any means.

Not sure how you can claim low damage when she has some of the most self-explanatory extended combo setups in the game.
Her "low kill power" is rarely an issue when she has little difficulty landing hits anyway, compared to many others in the cast.

Perhaps if one is new to the game to the degree of not understanding the basic idea behind having a dozen great and mostly safe options to choose from and using those instead of just throwing out dash attacks, smashes, and specials; they will have issues. But I don't think that person would find much more success with other characters either.

 

[-dMT-]

@ exnecross :

I agree to a certain extent... at the lower skill levels of play, bouncing fish punishes a lot of players.... and needles.

 

[exnecross]

You're essentially saying that you need a grasp on the fundamentals of Smash gameplay to play Sheik strongly. I don't think the ability to string combos, use low-recovery moves effectively, or take advantage of "extraordinary ability" to punish is anywhere near advanced play. Considering the amount of work plenty of other characters need to do to make up for not having said natural strength of character, it's amusing to me that Sheik is considered a "difficult" character by any means.

Not sure how you can claim low damage when she has some of the most self-explanatory extended combo setups in the game.
Her "low kill power" is rarely an issue when she has little difficulty landing hits anyway, compared to many others in the cast.

Perhaps if one is new to the game to the degree of not understanding the basic idea behind having a dozen great and mostly safe options to choose from and using those instead of just throwing out dash attacks, smashes, and specials; they will have issues. But I don't think that person would find much more success with other characters either.

There are so many points of disagreement I have with this post that I'll actually have to come back to respond after my next class. Healthy debate, of course!

 

[ArikadoSD]

You guys gotta remember - they pretty much make balance adjustments based on For Glory stats.

Anything can happen.

1.04 buffed Diddy. Buffed. Not much, but the only change made to him was a jab being stronger(?).

If that's the case then I'd expect nerfs to rolls and shield, but I seriously doubt that.

 

[diclonyuus]

Hello Shieks,

today I will switch from a Wii U Pro Controller to a GameCube Controller (Mayflash is on the way!) - and on Monday I'm going to my first tournament. I'll probably be returning with a lot of questions to the Q/A thread.

I've always used her as a secondary, but I've gotten frustrated with Marth after the patch, so I'm switching them over.
Man, Sheik feels so different with the bair changed - have any of you actually already found good combos off of bair yet? I've tried BFing out of it online a few times, it actually connected once or twice, but felt more like a string rather than a combo.

 

[False]

So I'll say that Sheik is pretty straight forward an easy to use at ANY level. However, I'll also say that at top level Sheik has a VERY hard time killing.

The bair nerf wasn't terrible. If anything, it lets us convert/combo into BF. Same thing with dtilt, with 2% reduced percentage it'll just be easier (if ever so slightly easier) to string dtilt into u-air at kill percents.

 

[YoHeKing]

Any high level sheik here I can play?

This could really help me out bros. Trying to proove somthing.

 

[Creede]

You're essentially saying that you need a grasp on the fundamentals of Smash gameplay to play Sheik strongly. I don't think the ability to string combos, use low-recovery moves effectively, or take advantage of "extraordinary ability" to punish is anywhere near advanced play. Considering the amount of work plenty of other characters need to do to make up for not having said natural strength of character, it's amusing to me that Sheik is considered a "difficult" character by any means.

Not sure how you can claim low damage when she has some of the most self-explanatory extended combo setups in the game.
Her "low kill power" is rarely an issue when she has little difficulty landing hits anyway, compared to many others in the cast.

Perhaps if one is new to the game to the degree of not understanding the basic idea behind having a dozen great and mostly safe options to choose from and using those instead of just throwing out dash attacks, smashes, and specials; they will have issues. But I don't think that person would find much more success with other characters either.

This is definitely a little bit late, but I'd still like to chime in. Sheik is a very simple character at a low level because she has no issue with safety and with combos. At a high level of play, Sheik is very complex due to A) all of her ATs she has and B) she has a very high skill ceiling. I think characters like Link are harder in general when compared to Sheik, but Sheik can be played very complex. Considering how different she is in this game compared to others, we have yet to really dig deep into Sheik's complexity, unlike Link where most of his complexity has been discovered in Brawl days.

If that didn't make too much sense (I doubt it did), what I'm saying is that Sheik is progressively getting more and more complex, while other characters that are now considered hard might be easy in comparison in a few years. What that means is that Sheik is super easy, but she is also probably the deepest and most complex in the game, which contributes to people calling her easy.

 

[saviorslegacy]

So I was testing all on my lonesome and here are my notes in case anyone is interested.

In reguards to using needles as a spacing tool.
It would appear that needles is not an effective spacing tool when you do not reverse it. You will always click one needle and that greatly hinders you. Using shield is a better alternative.

You can actually wave bounce on the ground but performing a reverse needle glide does not require it. Perform a 1/8 or 1/7 analog tilt into the opposite direction and it will input for a turn around B but will not interupt your dash. This allows us to gimp with Needles on low recovering characters. The wave bounce itself is useless as far as I can tell.
@Judo77

Standing grab from a dash is always preffered over a laggy dash grab. From my testing Sheik can do this very very well. Sheik can rapidly dash forward and cancel into a standing grab. It will always be 5/6 (I measured) shorter than a foxtrot if done as rapidly as possible.
The input is dash (hold for a second to cancel the foxtrot.. this can not be done in a foxtrot)> needles/shield> grab
Needles will not click if performed at the start of the dash.

If you ledge hop and then dair you will never go into the pit unless you DI away from the stage during the jump. You can cancel the jump with Dair early into the jump and cover the ledge with a spike hit box.

During A Uair lock/string the opponent cannot air dodge to escape. The last hit of Uair will catach them. Unfortunetly this will end your Uair string on some occasions. Just use Fair to finish it.

Well that is all.

 

[Creede]

Standing grab from a dash is always preffered over a laggy dash grab. From my testing Sheik can do this very very well. Sheik can rapidly dash forward and cancel into a standing grab. It will always be 5/6 (I measured) shorter than a foxtrot if done as rapidly as possible.
The input is dash (hold for a second to cancel the foxtrot.. this can not be done in a foxtrot)> needles/shield> grab
Needles will not click if performed at the start of the dash.

First, thank you for your contributions. Second, do you mean "hold" as in just run for a little longer than your initial dash? Or do you mean hold as in stop?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Sup. In this Dark Age of Sm4sh, i'm temporarily switching my mains up. Sheik is now my new main and i have Link as a tertiary main. This patch is bound to screw with character viability, so i've decided to verse myself in character knowledge and skill. That way, i'll truly be a stronger Smash player and get back to maining Link. Right now, no questions come to mind on Sheik, but i'll be sure to ask them should they arise. Maybe a couple videos if I want critique. Good day.

 

[WondrousMoose]

It seems that people have stopped talking about Perfect Pivoting like they were a few months back, but I'm curious to hear how you all are still using it. It doesn't seem to have taken over as the "new wavedash", but it still has its uses.

 

[diclonyuus]

First, thank you for your contributions. Second, do you mean "hold" as in just run for a little longer than your initial dash? Or do you mean hold as in stop?

Hold as in you can't shield during the dash startup animation. So just a bit longer than your initial dash.

I just came home from my first event - a lot of fun and will definitely continue going to them unfortunately a Ness wrecked me in winner bracket finals and in Grand finals. Anyone else experience trouble with Ness players? I'll post more detailed with questions to the MU thread tomorrow, I was just curious if anyone else had that problem or if he was just that much better than me.

 

[Creede]

Hold as in you can't shield during the dash startup animation. So just a bit longer than your initial dash.

I just came home from my first event - a lot of fun and will definitely continue going to them unfortunately a Ness wrecked me in winner bracket finals and in Grand finals. Anyone else experience trouble with Ness players? I'll post more detailed with questions to the MU thread tomorrow, I was just curious if anyone else had that problem or if he was just that much better than me.

Thanks for the explanation.

Anyway, I think that the Ness-Sheik matchup is pretty much even. Both have great combos and have pretty good zoning, but Sheik is faster while Ness does more damage per hit. Anyway, I'd have to see the match (or get a really good play-by-play) to know if the Ness was much better than you, you choked, etc...

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Wow. I get pranked... again. Seems the Link boards still have resentment for me.
I'm curious, how do you guys use Sheik's darts? I use them as an approach option, attack in the air, then dash in for a grab or Fair. Seems to work most of the time, but what do you think?

 

[WondrousMoose]

Wow. I get pranked... again. Seems the Link boards still have resentment for me.
I'm curious, how do you guys use Sheik's darts? I use them as an approach option, attack in the air, then dash in for a grab or Fair. Seems to work most of the time, but what do you think?

Her needles are a fantastic tool both offensively and defensively, and you should never forget the beautiful needles > Bouncing Fish combo.



And the Link board is pretty hostile. I wanted to pick him up as a secondary, but they scared me off.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Wow. I get pranked... again. Seems the Link boards still have resentment for me.
I'm curious, how do you guys use Sheik's darts? I use them as an approach option, attack in the air, then dash in for a grab or Fair. Seems to work most of the time, but what do you think?

I use them almost every chance I get. Sometimes I save them for a possible full hop needles into bouncing fish, sometimes I just throw them to interrupt my opponent and get a little bit of damage. Most importantly I use them to keep space and camp if I have to.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Her needles are a fantastic tool both offensively and defensively, and you should never forget the beautiful needles > Bouncing Fish combo.



And the Link board is pretty hostile. I wanted to pick him up as a secondary, but they scared me off.

They don't scare me. the problem is, they're really stubborn. If you're not a serious link main or haven't been with then in the brawl days, they will flame you for days. It gets real stale after a while cause you end up seeing how much of an ego they have (although they don't like to admit it). Don't let their words bother you: they're completely meaningless. If you have legitimate questions about link, ask them and they will answer. As long as you ignore their empty threats, you'll be fine.

 

[ArikadoSD]

damn guys are they really that bad? LOL

 

[WondrousMoose]

damn guys are they really that bad? LOL

Take a look at their "read before posting" thread, and look at some locked posts. They're not very polite.

 

[bc1910]

Hey, I thought it was about time I introduced myself here. I've been seconding Sheik since the 3DS days and I'm looking to up my game with her, since she covers a lot of my main's iffy MUs really well. So yeah, hello

 

[Lawz.]

damn guys are they really that bad? LOL

As long as you don't say anything stupid or spread misinformation, they're completely fine. Imagine if your unviable character is nerfed simply because of the spread of misinformation (the jab "infinite" which isn't actually an infinite for example).

 

[saviorslegacy]

First, thank you for your contributions. Second, do you mean "hold" as in just run for a little longer than your initial dash? Or do you mean hold as in stop?

"Hold" as in a bit longer than a foxtrot input. The foxtrot is really finicky in this game.

 

[Noso]

I found that forum a little too abrasive for my liking, I didn't see any immaturity or anything, but it took quite a bit of proving before they would accept someone into the fold.

 

[Creede]

As long as you don't say anything stupid or spread misinformation, they're completely fine. Imagine if your unviable character is nerfed simply because of the spread of misinformation (the jab "infinite" which isn't actually an infinite for example).

Have you seen the Link mixclip by Rushhoursmash? He has a ton of potential. I will admit that unnecessary nerfs are very annoying in any game.

What exactly changed about his jab?

 

[Lawz.]

Have you seen the Link mixclip by Rushhoursmash? He has a ton of potential. I will admit that unnecessary nerfs are very annoying in any game.

What exactly changed about his jab?

Any mixclip will make a character look like they have potential, that's what mixclips do. He's really not good, I don't know where people got the idea Link was a good character. Granted he wasn't bottom tier, but he still wasn't that great.

They removed IASA frames so it's no longer safe to jab for Link, and it removed his best/safest kill option (jab > utilt). They also removed the ability to fmsash/ftilt while holding a bomb. He's basically similar to Brawl Link....which is so sad.

They can seem hostile, but trust me those guys are the coolest people on SWF and are more than willing to teach/learn anything new about the game. Just don't go around saying he had an infinite or that he's OP or something lol. Some guy came in and said Link was bottom tier in Brawl because all Link players were using him the wrong way this entire time. I can't say I blame them for verbally mutilating him for something like that.

 

[Creede]

Any mixclip will make a character look like they have potential, that's what mixclips do. He's really not good, I don't know where people got the idea Link was a good character. Granted he wasn't bottom tier, but he still wasn't that great.

They removed IASA frames so it's no longer safe to jab for Link, and it removed his best/safest kill option (jab > utilt). They also removed the ability to fmsash/ftilt while holding a bomb. He's basically similar to Brawl Link....which is so sad.

They can seem hostile, but trust me those guys are the coolest people on SWF and are more than willing to teach/learn anything new about the game. Just don't go around saying he had an infinite or that he's OP or something lol. Some guy came in and said Link was bottom tier in Brawl because all Link players were using him the wrong way this entire time. I can't say I blame them for verbally mutilating him for something like that.

I'll visit the Link boards after this post.

Anyway, what my point is is that Link looks amazing in his mixclip, while Robin or Ganon mixclips don't look that great. Link has amazing tools, and, by extension, great recovery and gimping. Not to mention his damage per hit, which is really good. Link is very complex (more so than Sheik) and I think that he can be top of mid/bottom of high tier if people continue to progress him. Of course, we each have our own opinions and you can disagree.