How would you improve Ganondorf?

[Serph]

Bonjour, fellow Ganon-ers. The point of this thread is simple: discuss how Ganondorf could be improved for the next Smash game. Try to keep it realistic, though. This isn't a "create a new moveset" thread. Things can be changed, but we all know that Ganondorf isn't likely to receive a huge overhaul next time, so keep all talk of swords to a minumum.

Before I start, I'd just like to point out that while I'm decent enough at this game, I'm nowhere near an expert. This is just how I, personally, would attempt to make Ganondorf more usable next time around. If I've made a horrible mistake with one of my modifications then don't go off on one. I want to know what you lot think as well.

Neutral A
Leave it be.

Forward tilt
Leave it be.

Down tilt
Leave it be.

Up tilt
I know this has its uses, but I can't tell you how badly I wanted G'dorf to have a more conventional up tilt in this game. With that in mind, I would switch it with what is currently his up smash (although obviously the uncharged version), albeit weaker, what with it no longer being a smash attack.

Dash attack
Leave it be.

___

Forward smash
Not so much an improvement, but an aesthetic modification to further disassociate Ganondorf from Falcon. This move would become what is currently his neutral B, only a lot faster and a bit less powerful. (It would only play the full animation if it were fully-charged)

Down smash
New. Ganondorf punches the ground, knocking opponents back either side of him. His current down smash is often good for catching people (especially dodge-rollers) by surprise, but they can usually escape when "caught" by the first kick. Also, this is one move which still absolutely screams "Captain Falcon"...

Up smash
Well, I've already given this away to up tilt, so obviously it's new. This would be a Mewtwo-esq up smash with a hint of Zelda's up aerial. Ganon throws his hand into the air and produces a dark explosion. It doesn't stay there for long, but it has massive vertical range.

___

Forward aerial
Keep it as it is, but tone-down the lag on this thing. It's crippling.

Back aerial
Keep as it is, but increase the knockback and allow it to hit grounded enemies more easily again.

Up aerial
Leave this beauty be.

Down aerial
I would say reduce the lag, but it is stupidly powerful, and as long as we still have ways to cancel it everything's good.

Neutral aerial
I really don't like this move that much (if anyone can give me a use for it, please do), so I'd bring in something a bit more versatile and easier to connect with. I'm thinking something like Mewtwo's neutral air from Melee.
___

Neutral B
Bye-bye Warlock Punch, hello projectile. I've often thought about what sort of projectile attack Ganondorf could use, and I always end up coming back to the ol' Samus/Mewtwo/Lucario-style charged energy ball. So yes, I'm going to be boring and say just that. It'd be his dark energy ball from Ocarina, and while it would travel a little slower than other charged attacks, you could curve it up or down in a similar way to Din's Fire.

Side B
Leave it be. Obviously.

Down B
Two adjustments: first, it no longer passes through characters if they're right next to Ganon. Second, you get your second jump back after using it in the air. (Whether it was an oversight in Melee or not, won't you throw us a bone, Sakurai?)

Up B
I'm not a massive fan of this move, but at the same time I can't really think of how to make it better or what to replace it with. I suppose the least they could do is increase the knockback on the uppercut part. You don't often see it, so it'd be nice if it made more of an impact when it did connect.

___

General improvements

- Speed boost. I see no reason why Ganondorf should be the second slowest character in the game. Especially when someone like Bowser (with his daft "running" animation) is surprisingly high up the list. What's that all about?

- Jumping boost. Again, I don't see why Ganondorf should be such a rubbish jumper. Based on what we've seen of him in the likes of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess he's a bloody good jumper, and in Ocarina he can levitate.

Well, that's me done. The only thing I didn't go into are his throws. I suppose it'd be nice if he could chain-grab.

EDIT: forgot neutral air. :o

 

[deadpoe7]

ehh...I'm not so sure about the validity of this thread, since I doubt that there will be another SSB. But as for my opinion on what he needs for the next game, then absolutely he needs an overhaul. He never should have been a CF clone in the first place, obviously. At the bare minimum, this is what G-dorf should have if they ever make another SSB:

1) Some mild levitation properties (or at least a better recovery/air mobility)
2) A Projectile (Like OoT, maybe base it off of Zelda's side-B)
3) Some Sword Action! (I'm not saying make him hold it the whole match like Ike or Marth, but replace some moves, like Warlock Punch for example, with a chargeable sword slash or something)

 

[deadpoe7]

[sorry, double post...quirky cpu]

 

[ZeonStar]

I really, REALLY hope if they balance the characters with codes, that they fix Ganon, and Captain Falcon's Landing lag glitch after recovering. That gets me killed so much it almost makes ganon a VERY crippled character.

 

[:034:]

Personally, I don't think about all the nerfs Ganondorf has received, because I feel that it would distract me from playing Ganondorf in the most amazing and manly way possible. I know Ganondorf's limitations as a character, I know his weaknesses, but it doesn't stop me from maining the most amazing and fun to play character in Brawl.

I'm not bashing this thread though. I'm just posting my opinion about it, and I might actually post some ideas here and there.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

The only really logical things I would like for Ganny:

Less overall lag. His speed is fun, but just his lag on everything is bad

A better grab range. Seriously, I have to be like literally on top of the opponent to grab him!

 

[Lex Crunch]

Make his up throw a kill move.
Make his up special a kill move again. Seriously, Falcon's is, but Ganny's isn't?
Turn the Warlock Punch into a charge up punch or something reminiscent of DK's.

 

[Donkey Bong]

give him a real run, rather than a powerwalk.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

give him a real run, rather than a powerwalk.

That deserves an LOL

 

[Stroupes]

I agree with increased grab range. I don't actually have a problem with his speed.
I'd probably want a lag decrease from Down-B. Or increased range/hitbox

 

[.CMW.]

People seem to be at a crossroads of longing for 1. A different B special, 2. Sword POWAH, 3. Faster, 4. Projectile.

Thus I would give him a B special where he throws his sword and uses his "magic/force" to pull it back after it goes a certain distance. Chargeable, more purple lightningness the further you have it charged. Travels....hmm....say 4-5 bowsers?

Mild running boost.

Make some uber lag moves less uber laggy?

Just a few thoughts...

.CMW.

100th post in the boards of a character I love, my SWF cherry has officially been popped. lol

 

[Swoops]

...dont care much about the thread, and it probably doesnt belong here, but as long as I'm here...

64 Capt. Falcon u-smash for new u-tilt...hell yea

 

[deadpoe7]

100th post in the boards of a character I love, my SWF cherry has officially been popped. lol

Uh...

Wow.

 

[.CMW.]

Uh...

Wow.

Don't be hatin', start participatin'.

.CMW.

 

[Serph]

Personally, I don't think about all the nerfs Ganondorf has received, because I feel that it would distract me from playing Ganondorf in the most amazing and manly way possible. I know Ganondorf's limitations as a character, I know his weaknesses, but it doesn't stop me from maining the most amazing and fun to play character in Brawl.

I'm not bashing this thread though. I'm just posting my opinion about it, and I might actually post some ideas here and there.

Of course. I'm not slating Ganondorf here (he's the only character that I'm 100% comfortable playing as), but we all know that he has a few serious issues which need addressing in the next game. I'd like Ganon to be both fun to use and a more respectable choice for competitive play.

...dont care much about the thread, and it probably doesnt belong here

Is this not the Ganondorf sub-forum, then? This thread is about discussing his weaknesses and how they could be addressed for the next game. And what better place to ask that question than here, where almost everyone will have had a huge amount of experience playing Ganon? Anywhere else the responses would be "huh huh make him suck less lol."

 

[jiggz kirbz]

To me theres no way in being good as a character or improve.

 

[Sieken Kyoshiro]

Thus I would give him a B special where he throws his sword and uses his "magic/force" to pull it back after it goes a certain distance. Chargeable, more purple lightningness the further you have it charged. Travels....hmm....say 4-5 bowsers?

This sounds unbelievably sexy.

 

[Z1GMA]

Some pretty nice suggestions there TC..

The major thing I can think of is:

Ganon has NO "one two three"-attack, not even a "one two"-attack
Nair can be discussed.

I love his Jab.. But I want some kind of (one two OR one two three) - grounded attack.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I've been thinking about this a lot, so here are the changes I'd make.

First, I'd buff his second jump so that he could at least get onto the ledge from a ledgedrop.

Second, make his running animation faster than Bowser's and get rid of the Triforce of Powerwalk.

Third, make his grab have the range and speed of his jab. Running grab would have a little more range.

Fourth, give his bair enough of a vertical hitbox to even hit a crawling Snake from a shorthop.

Fifth, Make fair autocancel after the hitbox ends.

Now for the actual move changes.

My favorite idea for an improvement to Ganon is to change the Murder Punch for a projectile. This is my favored idea for a projectile.

B: Midnight Viper - One tap of B will make Ganondorf release a small fang-shaped black projectile that does 4%, has a range of about 3/4 of FD, and a flight path similar to Mewtwo's uncharged B. Can be charged, but will not increase damage or range, but will instead add more projectiles, up to a maximum of 10, fired in a 30º arc with the origin at Ganondorf's torso. In the air, has the same range and power, but is fired at a 45º angle. Charged version fires in a 90º arc that begins at Ganondorf's torso and ends at his feet. Almost no knockback. High priority. Degrades to 2%

And here's how I would improve his recovery:

UpB: Rising Dragon - Ganondorf flies up 4 character lengths and 2 character lengths forward, performing an uppercut which has two sweetspots. One does 14% and medium horizontal knockback and is at the beginning (first ~10 frames) of the animation. The second does 20% and high vertical knockback at the very end (last ~4 frames) of the uppercut. 8% and low diagonally vertical knockback otherwise. Has SAF for the first half of the move except the sweetspots. No changes in air. Auto-sweetspots ledge at all points.
A gratouitous buff to his >B:

ForwardB: Characters always bounce the exact same height, no matter how much damage they have. Going off a ledge with this will not put you into helpless freefall. During Ganoncide, Ganondorf will always die second.

And a change to the Murder Kick to actually prevent yourself from being combo'd from below and help with recovery some.

DownB: In air, begins immediately. Each ~5 frames has their own hitbox. All hitboxes are same, but seperate. 5% damage, knockback cut back to a fourth of before, no shockwave, impact animation has lag halved. Lasts half as long in air as previous version. Gives back second jump.

Aaaaaaand that's the end to my making Ganondorf an (at least) mid-tier character.

 

[_voRg__]

give ganon attacks with his sword!!! e.g. f- smash

 

[Vionce]

improve priority at least for his up air. Give him a projectile similar to his atk in OoT. Make him floaty and change his up b into something that resembles flying/floating.

 

[Cinos_Gohegdeh]

i would increase his speed only. i mastered ganon already theres no point in upgrading him to me. but speaking of Ganon... any1 up for a match? i know its the wrong place and all but it doesnt matter to me right now.

 

[Serph]

Also, I'd like to add that I think the knockback on some of his attacks should be increased. I know Ganondorf is a physically powerful character, but at times it can seem as though others, such as Ike and Dedede, hit even harder. This just doesn't make sense to me. Especially since Ike in particular is faster and has a longer reach with his sword. Ganondorf should out-hit everybody.

I agree with the grab range comments, too. The horrible reach puts me off going for throws most of the time.

 

[fear17]

Ganondorf might be slow and low tier but remember mind games and skill thats all you need to know

 

[Ray_Kalm]

i would increase his speed only. i mastered ganon already theres no point in upgrading him to me. but speaking of Ganon... any1 up for a match? i know its the wrong place and all but it doesnt matter to me right now.

Are you sure you know what your talking about? "I've mastered Ganon, already". I would really like to see this.

 

[ZeonStar]

Are you sure you know what your talking about? "I've mastered Ganon, already". I would really like to see this.

Welcome to smashboards.

 

[Calixto]

1) Make Forward Air autocancel lag

2) Restore jump after aerial Down B

3) Give him a proper run (both in animation and in speed).


That is all.

 

[Vionce]

2) Restore jump after aerial Down B

that was a glitch that was never intended. All instances where a character's 2nd jump was restored have been removed because nintendo didn't like that exploit. It is highly unlikely we will ever get a move that can restore 2nd jumps.

Ganondorf might be slow and low tier but remember mind games and skill thats all you need to know

w/out wave/dash dancing, there are very few mind games available to gannondorf. In melee you might've been able to have a good air mind game, but ganon is a ground fighter now.

 

[Swoops]

that was a glitch that was never intended. All instances where a character's 2nd jump was restored have been removed because nintendo didn't like that exploit. It is highly unlikely we will ever get a move that can restore 2nd jumps.



w/out wave/dash dancing, there are very few mind games available to gannondorf. In melee you might've been able to have a good air mind game, but ganon is a ground fighter now.

...bowser's side b, kirby's hammer...not to mention that there are several aerials that restore second jumps for everybody.

wavedashing and dash dancing were for spacing mostly, Ganondorf still has lots of tricks

 

[MoblinMan]

that probably wasn't intended either. IDK about Kirby's Hammer, but Bowser can only do that over the ground I think, so it's not usable for a recovery.

I do agree with Swoops however. There are still plenty of ways to trick your opponent into getting hit in the air. It just takes a little more will power.


edit: and I would make it so that when wiz kick hits a shield it doesn't shorten the length. to the point where it's a good pressure tactic if you hit them about 1/3 - 1/2 of the way through the flight.

Not the best buff obviously, but it was the only thing I hadn't seen mentioned yet


Ganon should invest moar skill points into Arcane, imo

 

[xzerolegend]

aside from ganon being the most perfect character ever. if you wanted to go ahead and have him be unecessarily overpowered. make his nuetral B move a projectile. like zeldas side B except with shorter range and delayed explosion.

 

[Serph]

1) Make Forward Air autocancel lag

Definitely. How are we supposed to administer Ganon's fist of great injustice when the penalty for missing is so crippling? It doesn't even seem as powerful as it used to be, so I have no idea why they decided to make it so situational.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I've been thinking about this a lot, so here are the changes I'd make.

First, I'd buff his second jump so that he could at least get onto the ledge from a ledgedrop.

Second, make his running animation faster than Bowser's and get rid of the Triforce of Powerwalk.

Third, make his grab have the range and speed of his jab. Running grab would have a little more range.

Fourth, give his bair enough of a vertical hitbox to even hit a crawling Snake from a shorthop.

Fifth, Make fair autocancel after the hitbox ends.

Now for the actual move changes.

My favorite idea for an improvement to Ganon is to change the Murder Punch for a projectile. This is my favored idea for a projectile.

B: Midnight Viper - One tap of B will make Ganondorf release a small fang-shaped black projectile that does 4%, has a range of about 3/4 of FD, and a flight path similar to Mewtwo's uncharged B. Can be charged, but will not increase damage or range, but will instead add more projectiles, up to a maximum of 10, fired in a 30º arc with the origin at Ganondorf's torso. In the air, has the same range and power, but is fired at a 45º angle. Charged version fires in a 90º arc that begins at Ganondorf's torso and ends at his feet. Almost no knockback. High priority. Degrades to 2%

And here's how I would improve his recovery:

UpB: Rising Dragon - Ganondorf flies up 4 character lengths and 2 character lengths forward, performing an uppercut which has two sweetspots. One does 14% and medium horizontal knockback and is at the beginning (first ~10 frames) of the animation. The second does 20% and high vertical knockback at the very end (last ~4 frames) of the uppercut. 8% and low diagonally vertical knockback otherwise. Has SAF for the first half of the move except the sweetspots. No changes in air. Auto-sweetspots ledge at all points.
A gratouitous buff to his >B:

ForwardB: Characters always bounce the exact same height, no matter how much damage they have. Going off a ledge with this will not put you into helpless freefall. During Ganoncide, Ganondorf will always die second.

And a change to the Murder Kick to actually prevent yourself from being combo'd from below and help with recovery some.

DownB: In air, begins immediately. Each ~5 frames has their own hitbox. All hitboxes are same, but seperate. 5% damage, knockback cut back to a fourth of before, no shockwave, impact animation has lag halved. Lasts half as long in air as previous version. Gives back second jump.

Aaaaaaand that's the end to my making Ganondorf an (at least) mid-tier character.

So tell me, Serph, whaddaya think?

 

[Serph]

Midnight Viper sounds a lot like the sort of move I was thinking of prior to Brawl. It would basically be like his multi-energy ball attack from Ocarina of Time's final battle. Tap B and he'll throw a dark ball. Charge it up and he'll throw several, with the top and bottom ones scattering at set angles. It can be "held" like Mewtwo/Samus/Lucario's B move, but the knockback is minimal. It's basically a deterrent/damage dealer.

Also, not so much an improvement, but one of his alternative outfits should be the colours of Phantom Ganon from Wind Waker.

Ocarina Ganon and Old Manondorf are class, but this would be the greatest costume change ever.

 

[eman]

he needs to be faster, I would also improve his UP-C move, I don't like the way he jumps....

 

[m0r0nz-inc]

k, im a bit of a newb, so bare with me.
Ganon is tremendous fun, but not particularly great.
I think the reason for this is because hes really unforgiving. His B basicly sums him up, if you hit, it hurts, but if you miss, you are going to get punished. So all he really needs is an 'autocancel'? I dont really know what that is, but someone mentioned it earlier and if its what it sounds like, it would make ganon a much more competitive character. To be honest, I dont think his moves really need changing. As much as I'd love his A+A+A to be slashes with his sword, hes pretty fine as he is.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Midnight Viper sounds a lot like the sort of move I was thinking of prior to Brawl. It would basically be like his multi-energy ball attack from Ocarina of Time's final battle. Tap B and he'll throw a dark ball. Charge it up and he'll throw several, with the top and bottom ones scattering at set angles. It can be "held" like Mewtwo/Samus/Lucario's B move, but the knockback is minimal. It's basically a deterrent/damage dealer.

Also, not so much an improvement, but one of his alternative outfits should be the colours of Phantom Ganon from Wind Waker.

Ocarina Ganon and Old Manondorf are class, but this would be the greatest costume change ever.

That's pretty boss, but Phantom Ganon from OoT would be even better.

 

[Vionce]

he needs to be faster, I would also improve his UP-C move, I don't like the way he jumps....

faster atks or faster moving speed? Either way, that's not really necessary to make him better. In melee he moved the slowest, but was still good. In brawl, even if his atks are slow, if they had good range or priority it would make up for the lack of speed. But yes i agree that his jumps are not very good.

 

[Serph]

Ganondorf wasn't the slowest character in Melee. He wasn't fast, but there were about five or so characters who moved slower. In Brawl he only beats Jigglypuff...

His attacks could use more priority, though. Slow, powerful attacks should have higher priority, and fast, weak attacks (like Metaknights) should be lower. Makes sense to me.

 

[Anomilus]

Hmmm.....

- A lot of moves would get more range to keep him from being so easily overwhelmed by those who weren't gimped on range.

- Wizard Kick comes out faster, but only be a smidge longer

- Less cooldown on a lot of Ganon's moves - Especially FAir

- New Down Smash

- Power (back) up Up-B. It's so weak now. The swipe was a good addition, but why is it so weak, especially compared to Captain Falcon's???

- Fix BAir so it has a better hitbox

- Make Neutral B actually useful. If they don't wanna speed it up, then I say infuse a projectile into it. Still perform the slow punch, but at the same time release a slow moving super-powerful projectile that can break shields. Now the opponent HAS to jump over or roll around the slow projectile, allowing for pressure games. Ganon deserves a projectile - even a crappy one.

- Improved grab range and perhaps even give one of the throws KO potential.


I think that would do.