How would you improve Ganondorf?

[ChronoPenguin]

For the love of god let him hover.
How could Peach Hover and not Ganondorf.
WTF?
WW...he flys away with Zelda after you meet him in that tower.
OoT....self explanatory.
TP...uh Dark Zelda anybody?
Four swords adventure...Super mega ultra jump >.>

....By god let him Hover.

Also I think Ganondorf should change from heavy Power house.
To a Hybrid.
He should have some fast, non kill moves.
Some moderate damage moves, that have kill potential.
Then some WTF Boom Headshot kill moves with wind up lag or ending lag on em.

Also...his movement speed...wtf?
OoT Ganon anyone? That mofo was on Link.....nearly all the freaking time.


Im just saying, while it's Obvious Ganondorf is a power house.
If we gotta keep him in balance with Brawl (because if this Canon...lawl...ownage)
Make him a hybrid in his general moveset.
Also ya he needs his Projectile orb...just not chargable.
Give him the Energy orb...not chargable, just make it a moving orb with moderate damage. Slower than some projectiles but ya....
....oooh and make his Down B agnahim's Lightning attack....that be sick >.>

But to keep him the same...ya hybrid...that is all.

 

[Divilenta]

Ignoring new movesets, I would:

-give him faster running speed, closer to Melee

-give his up special more launch

-give his moves less lag/more autocancel

-give his bair more range

-give ftilt more range

-make ganoncide like bowser's side-b, ganon dies second

Replacing moves, I would:

-take the dark balls suggestion, but no replacing the Punch

-give him a multi-hit standard attack

-His new final smash would be Dark Execution. He pulls out his sword and strikes his opponent with enough force to kill them. Can hit multiple opponents. Basically Marth's Critical Strike with the range of Great Aether

Would really wish for this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xouy4gfMBc

 

[Wobby]

I would give Ganondorf hands.

 

[Serph]

Also I think Ganondorf should change from heavy Power house.

Hmm, I'm not so sure. I mean he's supposed to be incredibly powerful, because he holds the Triforce of Power. I think they already undermined his strength somewhat with the inclusion of Ike.

I sort of like the fact that practically all of his attacks are potential killers.

-take the dark balls suggestion, but no replacing the Punch

You'd keep Warlock Punch?

I think my idea of giving forward smash the Warlock Punch animation (at least the backhand-slap part) works best. They could increase the startup slightly and boost its power to bring it closer to the actual WP. This frees-up neutral B for some sort of projectile.

While I'm at it, Volcano Kick could probably undergo a similar transformation. Why not make it Ganon's down smash? It would have less range, be less powerful and hit both sides, but I think it could work really well.

 

[Divilenta]

I think my idea of giving forward smash the Warlock Punch animation (at least the backhand-slap part) works best. They could increase the startup slightly and boost its power to bring it closer to the actual WP. This frees-up neutral B for some sort of projectile.

While I'm at it, Volcano Kick could probably undergo a similar transformation. Why not make it Ganon's down smash? It would have less range, be less powerful and hit both sides, but I think it could work really well.

Sounds better than my idea.

Oh, and his grab range needs to be like that of Melee.

 

[Hyrus]

Up Tilt: Ganon needs a real up-tilt. Hitting this attack by accident is practically a penalty and its uses can be integrated elsewhere. It'd be nice if this attack hit twice.

Up Smash: Despite it's high damage, it's knockback isn't especially notorious and it's range is incredibly pathetic to hit reliably with it. Even with interruptible frames, the move isn't great. Any buff to this move (speed, range, KO) would make it competitive with a short hop Up Air.

Down Smash: While many people insist on calling Thunderstorming an "advanced technique", it is a glitch that needs to be removed. But to compensate, Down Smash could become the same technique (note, doesn't replace Down Air).

You charge up on the ground (Ganon ducks down during the charge) and go airborne in the direction of your DI for a thunderstorm. Because it is chargable as a smash and because it is not a "true aerial", the move will always have a certain amount of lag at the end, but will always execute, regardless of slopes and terrain (Ganon appears to levitate). While it would lose some of its overall KO strength, a fully charged Down Smash would be a terrifying ability. Add in the fact that it's the only charged smash that can be DIed away if an opponent sees it coming, and you have an amazing trademark skill (but not an unpunishable one).

Neutral B: Our new Neutral B is a combination of Warlock Punch and Ganon's old Up Tilt. This move has quite a bit of start up on it, like the aforementioned moves, but has a unique animation of Ganon charging and hurling a (note: not a true projectile) bolt of energy diagonally at the ground... roughly the same distance as the old Up Tilt in addition to hitting a bit closer to Ganon. The the bolt explodes when it hits the ground, so Ganon could use this really high up, causing the bolt to technically travel farther before detonating. Note that the bolt will not detonate on the enemy, so there's no point in aiming it at anything but the stage/platforms.

Side B: Instead of Ganon coming to his opponent, his opponent comes to him. Side B "vacuums" opponents into Ganon's grab from roughly the original distance of the attack. The vacuum effect sucks faster on grounded opponents (even if they shield), and a roll or jump away can counter the short lived effect. Opponents can also use the vacuum effect to their own advantage, so it is a balanced ability for both players.

The grab's choke effect/animation is unchanged.

While returning to a ledge, Ganon can wisp an enemy who's standing on the very ledge off the stage with Side B to mix up getting back, though a Ganoncide is still possible so spacing is key.

Up B: I think the hitbox for the punch at the end of the attack could linger a bit longer, and if the punch connects, Ganon should get his Up B back again. There isn't much point it knocking off a ledge guarder if you can't get back.

Meh.

 

[Matsuda Kazeryu]

I would start to improve him by NOT making him a ****ing slower clone of Captain Falcon.

 

[Wizard99]

make Warlock punch a chargeable move rather than an epic lag move

 

[Divilenta]

His Down-B doesn't need improvement with power. I was on wi-fi earlier adn managed to wizkick through 6 firecracker shots in the air. It was freking awesome!

 

[Z1GMA]

O_O Giving him super armor during the whole Warlock punch-(startup) would be awesome!

Then it would at least be used at times..

 

[Serph]

While many people insist on calling Thunderstorming an "advanced technique", it is a glitch that needs to be removed.

A glitch? What on Earth are you talking about? All you're doing is activating the move fast enough that the ending lag doesn't take effect. If you jump high enough into the air and perform a stomp you'll also land with zero lag. Is that a glitch as well?

 

[deadpoe7]

Down Smash: While many people insist on calling Thunderstorming an "advanced technique", it is a glitch that needs to be removed.

Good GRAVY on a biscuit! Remove one of Ganon's most redeeming techniques? He would be bottom tier if he couldn't thunderstorm! Furthermore, many characters have a way to autocancel a move to get rid of lag, such as the space animals' lasers.

Regardless, I'm sorry, but to call autocanceling an aerial a glitch is to call nearly every other technique in the game a glitch as well.

 

[Hyrus]

A glitch? What on Earth are you talking about?

Let'sa go!

1) Brawls philosophy is to simplify the gameplay and reduce gimping (which is why stocks last longer than in Melee and why L-canceling is out). Canceling a Dash Attack into an Up Smash that slides most of Final Destination with Snake doesn't seem like an intended mechanic because of how unobvious and complicated of an input it is. While Thunderstorming is easier to figure out, it still isn't an obvious input.

2) Thunderstorming is a characteristic that only Falcon and Ganon can do (probably since they're copies). If a character has unique physics or traits, it usually doesn't require some goofy input (i.e., Tink's down air). Dash Attack Cancel doesn't do anything for Ganon - because it isn't even worthwhile for numerous characters, it seems rather unintended and the same can be assessed about Thunderstorming.

3) Down Air is not only a potent aerial spike, but is used with Thunderstorming as a personal defense/damage racking tool. A full jump Dair is pretty slow and situational, while the Thunderstorm is faster and more accurate on a grounded foe.

Show me how many characters consistently share or even possess attacks who's potency and role drastically change with a tricky controller input. Everyone has a Ftilt, everyone can shield, everyone can dodge, everyone can recover... I mean, for a bunch of folks who failed to test D3's down throws or many character's grab-release combos, I really wouldn't expect all characters to intentionally have wonky inputs that grant them drastic changes in performance. It isn't universal across characters equally and wouldn't make sense that a person would have to "discover" them through an accident after countless hours of trying to intentionally "discover" a special scenario in the game physics.

Unless the game emphasizes the discovering of secret combo attacks (and Smash Bros does not publicly list this as a feature, though they tried to pass off Stutter Stepping), discovering hard-to-find physics and mechanics are the definition of a game glitch.

Regardless, I'm sorry, but to call autocanceling an aerial a glitch is to call nearly every other technique in the game a glitch as well.

I don't think autocanceling is a glitch, as it seems pretty universal and doesn't drastically change the function of a move. Thunderstomping is not universal. And yes, most "techniques" seem like obviously unintended mechanics.

By the way, I didn't suggest removing Thunderstomping from Ganon. I just suggested making the input conventional while changing its physics. It's just fanfic either way.

 

[Serph]

I still don't see how it is in any way a glitch. Almost every aerial in the game has some sort of landing lag, but it only occurs if you land within a certain period of time after the move has completed. If not, then you land normally. The stomp's time frame for lag just so happens to be short enough that you can activate it the moment you leave the ground and land outside of that period, thus, eliminating the lag.

There's nothing wrong with it. It's no different to performing the move high up the air, which also results in a lag-free landing.

 

[:034:]

Uhm.

The input for Thunderstorm can be used on basically any aerial and there are a lot of aerials that have no lag afterwards. Examples are Falcon's fair, Fox's fair, Snake's uair, Wolf's fair, D3's fair, Mario's dair, Wario's dair and nair, Bowser's fair and a lot more.

A glitch is NOT definable by a 'hard to find physic exploit or game mechanic'. If it is hard to find, it means the beta testers have found it and that it was put in ON PURPOSE, or left in with a purpose. Sakurai left in L-cancelling and wavedashing in Melee even though they had found it at the time.

Brawl has been tested, just not as much. D3's dthrow is specifically meant to chaingrab, which is arguably even lamer than a lack of testing.

A glitch is a fault in a program caused by wrong coding. Or as Wikipedia states it: "In video games, a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers. Glitches may include incorrectly displayed graphics, collision detection errors, game-freezing or crashes, sound issues, and others. Some glitches are potentially dangerous to the game save data.

"Glitching" is the practice of a player exploiting faults in a video game's programming to achieve tasks normally impossible if the game's script runs as intended (Such as running through walls or defying gravity)."

As far as I know, inputting Y-A in one motion is a form of buffering, which is MEANT to be in Brawl. Which is obvious if you played the game. I mean, it's fucking everywhere.

tl;dr - thunderstorm = caused by Brawl physics
physics exploit =/= glitch


Also LOL at tricky input. Control stick up, C-stick down? How is that even remotely hard? Hell, my tech skill level is below 0, and I find this **** easy.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Uhm.

The input for Thunderstorm can be used on basically any aerial and there are a lot of aerials that have no lag afterwards. Examples are Falcon's fair, Fox's fair, Snake's uair, Wolf's fair, D3's fair, Mario's dair, Wario's dair and nair, Bowser's fair and a lot more.

A glitch is NOT definable by a 'hard to find physic exploit or game mechanic'. If it is hard to find, it means the beta testers have found it and that it was put in ON PURPOSE, or left in with a purpose. Sakurai left in L-cancelling and wavedashing in Melee even though they had found it at the time.

Brawl has been tested, just not as much. D3's dthrow is specifically meant to chaingrab, which is arguably even lamer than a lack of testing.

A glitch is a fault in a program caused by wrong coding. Or as Wikipedia states it: "In video games, a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers. Glitches may include incorrectly displayed graphics, collision detection errors, game-freezing or crashes, sound issues, and others. Some glitches are potentially dangerous to the game save data.

"Glitching" is the practice of a player exploiting faults in a video game's programming to achieve tasks normally impossible if the game's script runs as intended (Such as running through walls or defying gravity)."

As far as I know, inputting Y-A in one motion is a form of buffering, which is MEANT to be in Brawl. Which is obvious if you played the game. I mean, it's fucking everywhere.

tl;dr - thunderstorm = caused by Brawl physics
physics exploit =/= glitch


Also LOL at tricky input. Control stick up, C-stick down? How is that even remotely hard? Hell, my tech skill level is below 0, and I find this **** easy.

Well, it's a bit harder if you don't have tap jump on, but I find it easy by just using X to jump and hitting dair at almost the same time. Can't always do it consistently, but it's not exactly hard.

 

[Hyrus]

Also LOL at tricky input. Control stick up, C-stick down? How is that even remotely hard? Hell, my tech skill level is below 0, and I find this **** easy.

*And other stuff*

A great way to drag out an argument forever is to pick apart a person's words and not what they are saying with those words.

Bowser has no problem doing a lagless Fair without needing fast timing or using the C-Stick. Mario's in the same deal. Some character's aerials hit too high to see much benefit from the input. But perhaps more importantly, other character's aerials don't see a significant change in application through this specific input. If i'm wrong, you'd better get into contact with Vyse and let him know that Thunderstorming should be listed as a general "technique" in his comprehensive AT list and not as a Ganondorf specific. But let's pretend that you're making wild assumptions about me that you have not merit to make and that there's some reason it is listed there for Ganon.

Ganon's Dair goes from high risk on a grounded opponent OR low probability of connecting with a full jump to an immense personal defense skill with the Thunderstomp. Thunderstomping is to Ganon as Dash Attack Cancel is to Snake. No one sees such a benefit as Ganon does - it's quite essential in his case.

I didn't mean to suggest that Thunderstomping was hard (and no where did I state that). My intent was to explain that it isn't obvious as to how to do a Thunderstomp. It isn't simple to just pick up and figure out as you play. That's one of my many points of rational that the effect wasn't an intended one. And if it were a glitch, i'm sorry that the label would cause you so much grief as to be so snyde to anyone accusing it of such .

And that's possibly the heart of the eventual end of this argument (quite apart from the OP). Because it will always be kept confidential and we'll never know for sure, exploits, glitches and intended accidents are going to be left to assumption through logic. I'd just as much presume that a game with removed universal techniques and emphasis on prolonged fights would discourage something like a chaingrab... but then again, the man ain't right.

 

[Serph]

If they didn't want you to land Ganondorf's stomp cleanly from a short-hop then they would've made its lagging period longer. Just look at forward air. The only way you can even avoid the lag at all (from the ground) is if you use it just as you're going into the second leap of a full double jump. They clearly didn't want you short-hopping and slamming your fist into people's faces willy-nilly. This isn't the case with the stomp. The lag period is short enough to accommodate the hop. It's no different from how any other aerial works.

 

[Smasherboy]

They could've made him a wee bit faster than that; Compared to Brawl Ganondorf, Melee Ganondorf seems fast as heck now! I know he's real powerful but really. I like Brawl's Ganondorf though because he's not such a clone like he was in Melee. And also his recovery range is terrible now way worse if you fall off it's pretty much a done deal.

 

[Vyse]

If i'm wrong, you'd better get into contact with Vyse and let him know that Thunderstorming should be listed as a general "technique" in his comprehensive AT list and not as a Ganondorf specific.

True that. It's not even a technique. It's just a preferred method of doing (certain) lagless aerials.

I did the same thing in Melee to Double Short Hop Laser with Fox. I used the control stick to jump because it was faster than moving my thumb from Y to B.

This is the same thing. The same effect can be achieved with X/Y to Dair, but the manual dexterity required makes it unreliable.

Whereas Control Stick jumping and C-stick Dairing is a lot easier.

 

[Divilenta]

No banz the thunderstorm!

 

[Serph]

Away from trying to weaken Ganondorf by removing one of his best (and not to mention 100% legit) techniques, I have some more ideas.

Having just replayed the final battle with Ganondorf in Twilight Princess, I've come to the conclusion that there's no real reason why Ganon couldn't use his own attacks in the next Smash game, and the addition of a sword would not be difficult to work around. Right off the bat there are five moves (one of which he has already) from TP which translate well to Smash.

Neutral B - Sword Block
Ganondorf holds his sword up for a second to block any attack from the front (damage and knockback). It lasts the full duration regardless of what move is used (in other words, being hit won't knock him out of "guard" status). It's similar to Counter in a way, only there's no actual counter-attack involved, it blocks projectiles, and Ganon is still open to attack from behind. I think this move would benefit Ganondorf's patient style, and with the right timing it would actually work as a manual counter.

Neutral A - Thrust
Essentially the exact same move we have now, only using his sword. It's fast, has great range and good knockback. That might seem a bit too good for a standard A move, but considering Ganondorf's poor mobility I don't see why we couldn't have something like this. Sword block + thrust would be epic.

Forward smash - Elbow smash to slash
The function would be similar to that of Link/Toon Link's forward smash. Ganon lunges forward slightly, elbows (stuns) the target, then smashes them with a horizontal sword swipe.

Down smash - Spin slash
A single 360 degree spin with the sword. Self-explanatory.

Then of course we already have the mighty SPARTA kick.

Other than that, there are moves which don't even need to change.

Up air - Mario and Luigi perform this style of kick as well. No reason why it can't stay. Plus it's fantastic.
Forward air - Already an original, and you can still punch with a sword. Ganon would just use his other arm.
Down air - Looks different to Falcon's already, and you'd be mad to remove it anyway.
Down A - Already unique (and useful).
Up smash - Already unique
Forward B - Already unique, not to mention essential to Ganon's game
Down B - Alright, not entirely unique. But I can't be the only one who actually thinks this move already feels significantly different to Falcon Kick in Brawl. At least when used on the ground.

Then there are attacks which can be modified to incorporate the sword:

Back air - Swings the sword back, not just his fist. Since it's at a slight angle it would also easily hit grounded opponents.
Neutral air - First kick is weak, the second is changed to a horizontal sword slash with strong knockback.
Dash attack - Same attack, just with his sword pointed forward slightly (enough to give the impression that the sword is connecting, but in practice it offers no more range).

The only moves I'm unsure of are up B and up tilt.

What this does for Ganondorf:

1. Removes almost every trace of Captain Falcon
2. Gives him more moves which he actually uses in the Zelda games
3. Grants him increased range and disjointed hitboxes on some of his attacks

...and best of all, it doesn't really change his playstyle. The only move I've completely removed is Warlock Punch, which nobody uses outside of free for all.

Some could argue that Ike already fills the role of the slow, strong swordsman. But that's the beauty of this moveset: he isn't just a swordsman. He mixes it up with a variety of direct physical blows, just like in WW and TP.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Personally if I wanted to remove every trace of Captain Falcon from Ganondorf I'd simply bring in Windwaker Ganondorf. That version was frickin badass, screw an unwieldly glowy sword, bring on the double butcher knives and ninja style flipping out.

 

[Nic64]

lol thunderstorming is a glitch

nataku has the right idea, and make flooding roof top of ganons castle a stage while you're at it.

but to simply improve the current ganon, he should have better grab range, neutral B and up tilts that aren't crap, slightly improved running speed(some characters walk faster), and either some faster basic attacks or better recovery maybe. actually I wouldn't mind them toning his power down to make his recovery godly or something, if you think about it from a canon perspective the biggest thing about him is that only link/master sword can harm him.

 

[Hyrus]

Away from trying to weaken Ganondorf by removing one of his best (and not to mention 100% legit) techniques

In my suggestion, I didn't remove Thunderstorming. I suggested changing how to input it. I made the mistake of suggesting that Ganon's "physics exploit" was unnatural to the roster, but no one can read well enough to figure that out and they continue to try to explain what is it and not how it is used. But in case it didn't sink in the first 3 times I plainly stated it, I didn't remove Thunderstorming. Read my first post, it's right there.

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Why Ganon shouldn't use a sword.
=====

One of the favorite suggestions from Zelda fans. What I call a lack of imagination, many companies call easy money.

The most crucial reason Ganon shouldn't have a sword is that he is already massive as a character. His attacks coincide by having some decent range already, not factoring in his Dash Attack, Wiz Kick and Side B applications. Range and priority aren't exactly something that Ganon struggles with, and a sword (whether for all his attacks or just half) gives him exactly that.

While 1vs1 Smash is the most crucial, a real game designer is going to factor in that some people are playing free-for-all's and team battles. The point? Too much of an extreme game mechanic is significantly harder to balance, especially in these modes of play.

I'll also dish, though, that there are already enough sword/disjointed characters in the game as it is. Lucas F-Smash into Bowser's F-Tilt = I mean, Ganon puts on a suit of armor and beats peoples faces in with his bare hands. Far more badass than using an eloquent, graceful sword swing.

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Why Ganon shouldn't have a "true" projectile.
=====

Another favorite of a Zelda fan is giving Ganon a projectile. And make sure that an enemy can attack it to reflect the projectile back at Ganon! ;D

Like the sword critique, there are plenty of projectiles in the game. If it were up to me, i'd nerf projectiles and make more characters without them - little risk should equal little reward. Part of Ganon not having a projectile helps make him unique from the roster, and to me, that's a great thing.

Making Ganon's "would be" projectile reflect when an enemy attacks it would be OMGJUSTLIKETHEGAME :D :D. But if you cut the cute crap out and try to imagine it for one second, it'd be a pain in the ***. It's bad enough characters like Falco and Mario can beam your stuff back to you inbetween other defenses, but to give EVERY character the ability to return this attack? Not only would the "ping pong battle" be long, boring, and tedius (just like the game), but the amount of power the attack would need to bolster for being so easily counterable would only further increase the extreme's of the attack, making it harder to balance and stronger as a projectile.

Finding a way to include a pseudo projectile (or unusual use for his sword) would be a cool and creative addition to the game, but picking the obvious, projectile spam or sword-based moveset would need a lot of hardcore tweaking to be made balanced, while it doesn't further creativity. Speaking of...

=====
Show Ya Moves!
=====

Ganon and Falcon play pretty differently from each other. Some people insist that that characters are still too similar (and I agree!). But there is really only one big reason as to why these characters are similar at all.

Cosmetics. And Down B.

If you play a lot of the characters in Smash Bros, you'll notice that ALL moves are universally designed. Most character's Down Smash hit first in front and then again in back. Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Link, Zelda, etc. There are some exceptions, but because characters have differently designed bodies, different weapons and exaggerated cartoon effects, no one says anything. Ganon and Falcon are very similar in their presentation and weaponry (or lack of). You can give Ganon a sword attack for his Down Smash, but then that changes his range of motion because of his size, his range of attack, his priority, etc. And there's only so many ways a humanoid figure can realistically attack.

A few B move changes would make Ganon very different from Falcon. But if you wanna go ahead and change what his F-Smash, D-Smash or grab looks like, it's only skin deep compared to the differences in range and application. Ultimately, they're pretty different as it is anyway.

 

[Serph]

I did read you first post. I just ignored the part about the down smash thunderstorm because a) I think it's a bad idea, and b) the technique (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't need fixing anyway.

Regardless, why go to those lengths? Why not just lessen the lag period even more so that it's easier to perform short-hopped, lagless stomps? Everyone's a winner.

I mean, Ganon puts on a suit of armor and beats peoples faces in with his bare hands. Far more badass than using an eloquent, graceful sword swing.

Look at my moveset. I've made it a blend of sword slashes and punches/kicks, which is exactly how he fought in Twilight Princess. None of the sword swipes would be "graceful" anyway, as Ganon would be thumping his sword all over the place. Again, just as he does in TP. No three-hit stab combos. No Marth-esq showboating. Just huge, thunderous wallops.

Either way, you say Ganon doesn't have a problem with range or priority, but I beg to differ. Look at Ike, for example. His range is huge thanks to his sword, he's faster than Ganon, and a lot of his attacks have more knockback. If it weren't for things like Flame Choke I'd say Ike was pretty much "Ganondorf+".

I'll skip the projectile stuff, since my latest moveset didn't include one and I agree with you anyway. Projectiles should play a less important role than they do. Still, as things stand Ganondorf's game suffers slightly because he's almost always forced to approach.

Ganon and Falcon play pretty differently from each other. Some people insist that that characters are still too similar (and I agree!). But there is really only one big reason as to why these characters are similar at all.

Cosmetics. And Down B.

If you play a lot of the characters in Smash Bros, you'll notice that ALL moves are universally designed. Most character's Down Smash hit first in front and then again in back. Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Link, Zelda, etc. There are some exceptions, but because characters have differently designed bodies, different weapons and exaggerated cartoon effects, no one says anything. Ganon and Falcon are very similar in their presentation and weaponry (or lack of). You can give Ganon a sword attack for his Down Smash, but then that changes his range of motion because of his size, his range of attack, his priority, etc. And there's only so many ways a humanoid figure can realistically attack.

A few B move changes would make Ganon very different from Falcon. But if you wanna go ahead and change what his F-Smash, D-Smash or grab looks like, it's only skin deep compared to the differences in range and application. Ultimately, they're pretty different as it is anyway.

The difference being that Ganondorf was originally designed as an out-and-out Falcon clone. It isn't just a case of them happening to share similar moves and animations - if that were true then nobody would think anything of it. But in Brawl he has at least seven or so attacks (not to mention throws) which are distinctly Falcon-esq. If they can give Lucas an almost entriely unique set of A moves then they can do they same for Ganon, right? Hell, I expected Lucas to be more similar to Ness than he actually is. It would even have been forgivable. Same series, same size, same build, same sort of powers, etc. All Ganon and Falcon have in common is that they're both humanshape.

So yes, it is mostly cosmetic. But what's wrong with wanting to change that? As a Zelda fan first and foremost, it annoys me that Ganondorf's moveset is still built on that of an F-Zero pilot's. It's not like he's in any way associated with Falcon (unlike other clones to their counterparts), and behind Bowser he's the biggest Nintendo villain there is. I just think it cheapens his character.

 

[Divilenta]

Agree with all of that moveset except with the block. I do agree that the punch needs to be improved/abolished, but giving him a counter-like move is not his style (or so I think). I would, however, use the block to replace his shield. Kind of like he does in TP. Not sure about alternatives for neutral-B, though.

 

[Hyrus]

I did read you first post. I just ignored the part about the down smash thunderstorm because a) I think it's a bad idea, and b) the technique (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't need fixing anyway.

That's cool.

*Sword stuff* Look at Ike, for example. His range is huge thanks to his sword, he's faster than Ganon, and a lot of his attacks have more knockback.

Ike has his ridiculously necessary, multihit Jab going on for him. This one move is all that Ike needs to make up for his, otherwise, laggy but powerful moveset. Ganon doesn't have a fast attack that, at least, keeps a shielding opponent at bay and it is probably the biggest fault in his moveset.

Jab aside, Ike isn't really faster than Ganon (similar punish style, though).

If they can give Lucas an almost entriely unique set of A moves then they can do they same for Ganon, right? (Lucas/Ness) Same series, same size, same build, same sort of powers, etc.

Both Ness and Lucas have a head that's as big as the rest of their bodies, so if Lucas uses his feet to jab while Ness uses his arms, it doesn't really matter since the characters are "rubbery" anyway in how they are stylized. Ganon and Falcon are both incapable of having a fist turn huge.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, it just isn't as easy to figure out how to animate something when you need a move that hits HERE and over HERE and needs to look realistic for a non-cartoony figure. But this is merely in the defense of the animators, not the creative lead who was responsible for envisioning the character to begin with.

...But what's wrong with wanting to change that?

...As a Zelda fan first and foremost, it annoys me that Ganondorf's moveset is still built on that of an F-Zero pilot's.

...I just think it cheapens his character.

Nothing wrong with it at all, the F-Zero pilot's abilities don't appear to have anything to do with being a pilot, and you're right that it cheapens his character and it should be improved. But if my game were delayed for the xth time and I was wasting development on a mismatch gameplay subspace emissary campaign that does nothing for the longevity of the game, i'd probably cut something cosmetic than waste time not testing the game for infinites and wonky glitches. lol

Yeah. I'm just saying it's the least of his immediate problems.