How would the tier list change if MK is banned?

[~ Gheb ~]

You sure Marth deserves second best?

He'd only be top tier because he's a safe character, but he only hard-counters two/three characters.

That's not true. Marth semi ***** Wario, Kirby, Fox, Zelda and pretty much everything below mid tier. He has 60:40 against all high tier characters except DK and Wolf.
Marth will benefit since not only his worst match-up will be gone but also since none of his worst match-up's (DK and D3) would benefit particularily

 

[TheEliteSmasher]

Here are my opinions:

Snake: Would without a doubt suffer the most. From all the top tier characters, MK is his best match-up. Now he faces lots of Falcos, ROBs and D3s. Ouch.
D3: Would benefit actually but perhaps stay the same in the end since he doesn't really benefit more than other characters from MKs ban.
G&W: Won't get much better. MK isn't his biggest problem. Snake gives him way too much trouble and Marth will perhaps become more popular too.
Falco: Would propably be #1. He makes 2/3 of the cast already unviable now and MK isn't a good match-up for him. Marth is a rather close match-up actually and Gdubs won't be that good either so he loses his worst counters.
ROB: Can't see him improving too much. MK is no good match-up for him but D3 and Gdubs are bad for him. With MK gone Snake possibly won't even be that popular and ROB would lose his raison d'être.
Marth: Would benefit, since MK is his worst match-up. I think he goes even with Snake but still has the disadvantage to D3 and DK
Wario: Wouldn't benefit much since he is one of MKs worse match-up. He still doesn't stand a chance vs Marth and D3.
Pika: Will get a major boost. Having the advantage vs Snake and D3 is a BIG deal...

I think it'd look something like this:


Top:

Falco
Marth
D3
Snake
Gdubs
ROB
Pikachu

High:

Wario
Lucario
DK
blah
...

I lol'd hard at the marth and pika part. They could benefit some, but they both wouldn't hop up like 6 spots each just because MK is gone.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I lol'd hard at the marth and pika part. They could benefit some, but they both wouldn't hop up like 6 spots each just because MK is gone.

I think so.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That's not true. Marth semi ***** Wario, Kirby, Fox, Zelda and pretty much everything below mid tier. He has 60:40 against all high tier characters except DK and Wolf.
Marth will benefit since not only his worst match-up will be gone but also since none of his worst match-up's (DK and D3) would benefit particularily

You forgot Snake. Snake is definitely a harder matchup than DK (I thought DK was even.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You forgot Snake. Snake is definitely a harder matchup than DK (I thought DK was even.)

Most Snake and Marth players actually think it's even. I actually think so too...I used to think Snake has the advantage but it's not bad at all. I think it's actually 50:50...

 

[M15t3R E]

I like your list and your reasoning for it, Gheb_01.
Though I am not certain Pikachu would benefit THAT much from the absence of Meta Knight.
That is quite an enormous jump.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Most Snake and Marth players actually think it's even. I actually think so too...I used to think Snake has the advantage but it's not bad at all. I think it's actually 50:50...

Well, most players call 45:55 even too so that might be it. I personally don't. And if Marth players think the match is even...they should change their matchup chart to say so.

What makes DK harder to fight than Snake? It could be a playstyle kind of thing (aggro Marth is good for fighting DK, but horrible for fighting Snake).

I mean I pretty much agree with your tier list, I just thought Snake would be up there with Marth's "worst" matchups.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I like your list and your reasoning for it, Gheb_01.
Though I am not certain Pikachu would benefit THAT much from the absence of Meta Knight.
That is quite an enormous jump.

I think Pikachu is already underrated now. Think about it: How much worse are his match-up than ROBs? Not much. But he's still supposed to be an entire tier lower?

Now with MK gone, he would improve quite a bit, since he has advantage over D3, Snake and he goes even with Falco and ROB. That's good enough to make up for his match-up's vs Marth and Gdubs imo

Well, most players call 45:55 even too so that might be it. I personally don't.

Neither do I, nor the Marth boards.

And if Marth players think the match is even...they should change their matchup chart to say so.

Not all Marth players think so. Most of them think it's a bit in Snake's favour..Those who think it's even aren't that often on the Marth boards but apparetnly Neo and Pierce7d think it's even...and they are top level. The Falco match-up also is also considered more even by top players than the Marth boards do. I think it's too early for a final verdict on match-up's. Many haven't been even played a lot on the highest level yet.

Besides, the my entire list is based on my experience, as I said. And I do think it's even. I don't claim this list to be even remotely absoute. Nobody can say for sure how the Metagame will or would envolve.

What makes DK harder to fight than Snake? It could be a playstyle kind of thing (aggro Marth is good for fighting DK, but horrible for fighting Snake).

Maybe. I still think he beats Marth either way. He has a clear range advantage (ftilt beats most of Marths moves and is hard to punish) and he can KO Marth at ridicoulusly low %. DK on the other hand ives like...forever. The SA frames of the DK paunch are really broen...they can interrupt Marth at any time.

 

[mc4]

Thing is, the rest of Top tier has high tier or lower counters, but those counters, MK destroys. So with MK gone, there will be a lot more in Top Tier due to more counters.

yeah i get what your saying, but my point was if meta knight is indeed a counter to most if not all characters and has no counters then his being banned will have the same effect on all characters making nothing at all change except the fact that he is banned and everyone moves up one spot higher, but ofcourse that's only assuming the above (counter no counter) is true

 

[Dark Sonic]

Besides, the my entire list is based on my experience, as I said. And I do think it's even. I don't claim this list to be even remotely absoute. Nobody can say for sure how the Metagame will or would envolve.

Well, that's true.

Maybe. I still think he beats Marth either way. He has a clear range advantage (ftilt beats most of Marths moves and is hard to punish) and he can KO Marth at ridicoulusly low %. DK on the other hand ives like...forever. The SA frames of the DK paunch are really broen...they can interrupt Marth at any time.

Well I guess. I've never personally had problems fighting DKs , but I can see how his range advantage would be problematic. But just as DK has a clear range advantage, Marth has a clear speed advantage. But I'm not going to go too far in the matchup since it would really be just my opinion since it's been a while since I've fought "good" DKs anyway.

 

[cman]

Here are my opinions:

Snake: Would without a doubt suffer the most. From all the top tier characters, MK is his best match-up. Now he faces lots of Falcos, ROBs and D3s. Ouch.
D3: Would benefit actually but perhaps stay the same in the end since he doesn't really benefit more than other characters from MKs ban.
G&W: Won't get much better. MK isn't his biggest problem. Snake gives him way too much trouble and Marth will perhaps become more popular too.
Falco: Would propably be #1. He makes 2/3 of the cast already unviable now and MK isn't a good match-up for him. Marth is a rather close match-up actually and Gdubs won't be that good either so he loses his worst counters.
ROB: Can't see him improving too much. MK is no good match-up for him but D3 and Gdubs are bad for him. With MK gone Snake possibly won't even be that popular and ROB would lose his raison d'être.
Marth: Would benefit, since MK is his worst match-up. I think he goes even with Snake but still has the disadvantage to D3 and DK
Wario: Wouldn't benefit much since he is one of MKs worse match-up. He still doesn't stand a chance vs Marth and D3.
Pika: Will get a major boost. Having the advantage vs Snake and D3 is a BIG deal...

I think it'd look something like this:


Top:

Falco
Marth
D3
Snake
Gdubs
ROB
Pikachu

High:

Wario
Lucario
DK
blah
...

I think this would actually be pretty close. I don't really agree with falco being #1, since two (though minor) disadvantages are other top tier characters. However, I wouldn't be able to give good reasoning for any other character being #1. Can characters share a spot on the tier list, lol? I actually kind of want MK banned, if only to see how the tier list would look. 7-8 in top tier would be pretty crazy

 

[XxBlackxX]

I think this would actually be pretty close. I don't really agree with falco being #1, since two (though minor) disadvantages are other top tier characters. However, I wouldn't be able to give good reasoning for any other character being #1. Can characters share a spot on the tier list, lol? I actually kind of want MK banned, if only to see how the tier list would look. 7-8 in top tier would be pretty crazy

actually GnW is a hard counter. 70-30.
what's this other "minor" disadvantage you talk about?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hard counter? explain

 

[XxBlackxX]

is 70-30 not considered a hard counter? or did you want me to explain why GnW beats Falco?

 

[BEES]

Marth, Snake, Falco, Game&Watch

There's your new top tier without Metaknight. The rest of the tiers are harder to predict. Some lower characters could move pretty far. Because of Metaknight's dominance, low-tiered characters' success hinges a lot more on their matchup against Metaknight than the high tiers.

I could actually see Captain Falcon gaining ground. Of the top 4, Marth is his hardest matchup for similar reasons Metaknight was. Unlike Metaknight though, Marth is a less perfect character with soft counters and even matches of his own and Falcon mains could exploit these.

 

[ShadowLink84]

is 70-30 not considered a hard counter? or did you want me to explain why GnW beats Falco?

The second part. Mainly since i am not very familiar with th matchup since i don't use Falco often.

 

[XxBlackxX]

The second part. Mainly since i am not very familiar with th matchup since i don't use Falco often.

ok basically:

GnW has
-amazing aerials, they have a lot of priority, eat up your shield, fast, and decent damage, what's not to like about them? makes your shff'ed aerials worthless, almost.
-the bucket: makes predictable laser spamming bad. of course, a shl here and there will probably still work, but don't spam
-his smashes are quick and don't have much lag, plus a good amount of priority, so if you miss with one of your smashes, he'll smash you.

 

[cman]

actually GnW is a hard counter. 70-30.
what's this other "minor" disadvantage you talk about?

Marth has a small advantage on Falco, and almost certainly would be top tier w/o meta. That's who i was referring to. Some people say its even, but, assuming the marth player can powershield lasers consistantly, Marth has a 60-40 advantage according to the Marth boards.

I didn't know G&W watch was a hard counter. That would add some weight to my "I don't think he would be top statement" though.

I still can't think of good reasons to put anyone else at top.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seeing people talk about Marth's match-ups fills me with murderous rage.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Marth has a small advantage on Falco, and almost certainly would be top tier w/o meta. That's who i was referring to. Some people say its even, but, assuming the marth player can powershield lasers consistantly, Marth has a 60-40 advantage according to the Marth boards.

I didn't know G&W watch was a hard counter. That would add some weight to my "I don't think he would be top statement" though.

I still can't think of good reasons to put anyone else at top.

that's not really a bad thing. if all the top tiers had good matchups vs some and bad vs others, we would have more variety, which=good thing, right?

 

[meta master]

this is quite an interesting topic.

 

[brinboy789]

it would be the same if MK was banned as if any top tier was banned (in effects to the tier list)

 

[XienZo]

it would be the same if MK was banned as if any top tier was banned (in effects to the tier list)

Mario would prefer DDD banned over other top-tiers.

 

[brinboy789]

Mario would prefer DDD banned over other top-tiers.

well for the most part. tehre are some exceptions, but any top tier char banned would change the tier list.

 

[Lemon Drop]

It would be funny if Falco and Dedede got the top two spots, two birds with Chaingrabs.

 

[King Funk]

It would be funny if Falco and Dedede got the top two spots, two birds with Chaingrabs.

Yeah, birds with chaingrabs rule!

My imaginary top tier:

1. Mr. Game and Watch
2. Snake
3. Falco
4. King Dedede
5. Marth
6. R.O.B

 

[~ Gheb ~]

G&W doesn't hard counter Falco but gets hard countered by Snake Jfyi. We had lots of discussions about G&W vs Falco in the past and we came to the conclusion that it's 6/4 G&Ws favour.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Marth would be top tier;

Top:
Snake
D3
Marth
GnW
Falco
ROB

High:
Wario
Lucario
DK
Diddy Kong

Everyone else is basically in their right place to me.

 

[brinboy789]

Marth would be top tier;

Top:
Snake
D3
Marth
GnW
Falco
ROB

High:
Wario
Lucario
DK
Diddy Kong

Everyone else is basically in their right place to me.

marth better then G&W?!?!?


...no

 

[cj.Shark]

everyone thinks their character will climb the tier list because of lack of metaknights.
i dont care about that. the onlything that i care about how with metaknight gone different characters will finally win tourneys!

 

[Freezewish]

Marth would be 4th(above Falco and ROB). Wario would be top tier (and should be now). Also I think Game and Watch could possibly move up past D3 since removing MK would eliminate one of his worst matchups.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario would definitely go up a little bit. His biggest problem IS Meta.
He has several other bad matchups but not as bad as that one.

MK is one of Mario's hardest match-ups but slightly less than DDD if the infinite is not banned. With both MK and DDD's infinite gone, Mario could definetly move up. Mario still has disadvantages to Marth and G&W, but they're still only about 60:40/65:35.

 

[Deathcarter]

In my honest opinion, Samus could move to the bottom of mid tier if Meta Knight was banned. The reason being she has the tools to circumvent the other top tiers broken stuff whereas Meta Knight is a mass of cheapness altogether. Let me break it down:

Snake: Grenade drops, ftilt, and utilt are much less effective against Samus due to her being able to fight out of close range for the most part and dair to Snake up-B is very good.

DDD: She has it easier than the other infiniteies due to being able to both projectile camp DDD and space against him. Plus he is a big target for zair and he does not have the tools to conviently get past her missles outside of simply shielding them. Provided it is still a 30:70 disadvantage, but Mario and Luigi would kill for that matchup.

Falco: Depends on the stage; it is imo even on Lylat and Battlefield, but she gets wrecked on Smashville and Final Destination. Falco does not completely destroy her chances of viability though.

G&W: 60:40 or 65:35 advantage against Samus. His bair is less effective in this matchup since her zair beats it; also note that he has to jump in order to pull it off. Now from my matchup experience, he cannot approach from long distances because she will see it coming. He needs to be in mid range in order for bair to be more effective. Samus just needs to keep him out of that space, and her ftilt is good at doing just that. G&W has the advantage just through his sheer kill power advantage.

ROB:Don't have too much experience in the matchup, but I am pretty sure that ROB does not wreck her if not an even matchup.



Samus's placement in a tier list without Meta Knight will probably depend on the success on the high tier. The members of the high tier just have unorthodox styles/abilities that force the Samus to rethink her strategy (Lucario getting stronger, not being to camp Pit at all, combating Wario's superior close combat game AND spacing ability, Marth and Olimar's existance, etc.). If the high tiers become far more commonplace, Samus will have no chance for mid tier.

 

[Remzi]

I would guess the tier list would look something like this:

1.) Snake
2.) G&W
3.) D3
4.) Falco
5.) Marth
6.) ROB

I wanna stick DK up here, but D3's will be even more common with him around...

 

[comboking]

The same just without metaknight lol

 

[streetracr77]

The same just without metaknight lol

It would not stay the same at all. Other characters lose against MK just because of his advantages. Those characters now would or would not lose, making them higher or lower on the tier list.

 

[comboking]

I know i was kidding (more like sarcasm)

 

[streetracr77]

Oh lol ok, I guess that explains it.

 

[comboking]

Ike would be higher

 

[Hoser]

Care to explain how? That'll only remove one of his bad match-ups, and it's not even close to his worst. Meta Knight being banned won't effect his standings. Ike would go up one spot, only because there is one character ahead of him now gone.