Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Renth]

I played well considering My rust.

Got knocked into losers round 3 got mad made a big run and ended up getting 3rd place. I definitely played sloppy but that's what happens when you never play.

It was fun.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Spider Sense vs. Slox

This set is cool because you can learn a lot about things that work against good Fox players that don't know the matchup very well. And then it keeps it real with you and showcases a lot of the problems Ganons have.

Also, I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I don't think Yoshi's is the best stage in this matchup anymore. It's BF or DL. I think FoD has potential, but you need to be a god with the platforms. What it really boils down to is Ganon needs more space against Fox. Fox smothering Ganon is a lot more dangerous than him camping him if done properly.

 

[Deleted member]

Here are some clips of me and O Oldiz from saturdays biweekly
PAL Ganon <3

Doubles destruction: https://clips.twitch.tv/smashnorge/ExcitedCormorantSMSkull
Oldiz wall of pain: https://clips.twitch.tv/smashnorge/KindAlpacaCougarHunt
DJ read: https://clips.twitch.tv/smashnorge/BadFinchTF2John
Sheik main gets fuuucked: https://clips.twitch.tv/smashnorge/CuteSheepKevinTurtle
Quick zero to death: https://clips.twitch.tv/smashnorge/FancyPonyOSfrog

 

[-ACE-]

Fox can smother Ganon on any stage....

Ganon doesn't get many hits/opportunities vs a near perfect fox, and those hits/opportunities mean a lot more on YS than they do on DL. On DL fox can do whatever he wants and win, be it camp or smother Ganon. Also Ganon living longer on DL is a myth versus a good edgeguarder. But I agree BF is awesome.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Fox can smother Ganon on any stage....

Ganon doesn't get many hits/opportunities vs a near perfect fox, and those hits/opportunities mean a lot more on YS than they do on DL. On DL fox can do whatever he wants and win, be it camp or smother Ganon. Also Ganon living longer on DL is a myth versus a good edgeguarder. But I agree BF is awesome.

Yeah but it's much easier to corner Ganon on Yoshi's. When Ganon has more room to work with, it's harder for Fox to get in.

 

[-ACE-]

1. Fox doesn't have to corner Ganon on DL. He can constantly run and laser, forcing Ganon to approach anxiously which often leads to disaster. This simple tactic is hard for Ganon to handle and DL creates the perfect environment for Fox to do it.

2. We have significantly more trouble edgeguarding top foxes than they have edgeguarding us, so Fox is the one that will see better survivability on DL, not Ganon.

3. Just as Fox can corner Ganon more easily on YS, Ganon can corner Fox much more easily too. And getting that one hit leads to a KO much better on YS than it does DL.

4. YS as a stage promotes more ledge play, which is a very pivotal situation where either player can skip neutral and start a huge punish. Ganon has great ledge options and i think this is a good scenario for Ganon, as the success rate (for using ledge options appropriately) is better than that for the matchup as a whole. He also has several more ledge options on YS than he does DL.

5. Dropzone dair KO's on YS after tipman spikes and jabs/tilts when they recover from below, making it a better edgeguarding stage.

6. The platform height on YS makes Ganon's jumps less of a commitment and makes him a more agile character in comparison to DL. The platform height also leads to more lethal grab punishes and techchases via uthrow traps, fullhop dair landing on plat, sh uair reaches top plat, high ftilt reaches low plat, etc.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

1. Fox doesn't have to corner Ganon on DL. He can constantly run and laser, forcing Ganon to approach anxiously which often leads to disaster. This simple tactic is hard for Ganon to handle and DL creates the perfect environment for Fox to do it.

2. We have significantly more trouble edgeguarding top foxes than they have edgeguarding us, so Fox is the one that will see better survivability on DL, not Ganon.

3. Just as Fox can corner Ganon more easily on YS, Ganon can corner Fox much more easily too. And getting that one hit leads to a KO much better on YS than it does DL.

4. YS as a stage promotes more ledge play, which is a very pivotal situation where either player can skip neutral and start a huge punish. Ganon has great ledge options and i think this is a good scenario for Ganon, as the success rate (for using ledge options appropriately) is better than that for the matchup as a whole. He also has several more ledge options on YS than he does DL.

5. Dropzone dair KO's on YS after tipman spikes and jabs/tilts when they recover from below, making it a better edgeguarding stage.

6. The platform height on YS makes Ganon's jumps less of a commitment and makes him a more agile character in comparison to DL. The platform height also leads to more lethal grab punishes and techchases via uthrow traps, fullhop dair landing on plat, sh uair reaches top plat, high ftilt reaches low plat, etc.

1. I think Fox ****s Ganon over no matter what. But I think the camping tactic is easier to deal with than a good Fox being up in your face. But against lower level Foxes, I think it's the opposite. So I guess against them I'd still go with Yoshi's.

2. I never said anything about survivability. It doesn't factor into my analysis here because Ganon is either going to eat a meaty combo or die when he's offstage regardless of the stage.

3. Take the blast zones of Yoshi's story and put a vertical line symbolizing them on DL the same distance from the stage. A Fox in the up-b animation on that line should be getting edgeguarded. I think the early KOs on Yoshi's feel like they mean more than they actually do in that matchup. But if we were talking Peach, Puff, or another floatier character, I'd agree with that.

4. I don't think ledge play matters as much for Ganon in the matchup as people think. You get a pretty good chance at getting back into neutral or getting center stage. But there are very few occasions when Ganons will get reversals from the ledge against high level Fox players. Sure, if Fox doesn't respect your ledge options the ledge becomes more pivotal.

5. Wait are you saying drop zone dair KOs after jabs/tilts as well? About the first part, I don't think it matters that drop zone dair KOs after getting a tipman spike because there are other things you can do to secure the kill no matter what the stage is after a scenario like that.

6. I agree. But I think these positives don't outweigh the larger neutral disadvantage you get on Yoshi's. Having the space to establish yourself more is more important imo.

To clarify, I think BF is the best stage. DL I think is slightly better than Yoshi's. But in reality, I think comfort matters the most between all three of these stages. You lose badly no matter what, so you might as well be on the stage you play the best on.

 

[-ACE-]

1. Have you never played a good campy fox? There's no way to shut down proper camping without leaving yourself open at some point, and all the while you're taking damage. The ability to safely and effectively laser camp is a huge advantage for fox and thus a huge disadvantage for Ganon on DL. There actually ARE ways to deal with fox pressure. But the key is that fox can effectively execute either macro strat on DL and only one of them on YS.

2. I never claimed you said anything about survivability. I was listing reasons why YS is a better stage for Ganon vs fox, and this is a good reason.

3. The point is that one good oos option leading to a hit or even a stray hit almost always yields and edgeguard opportunity on YS, but much more rarely on DL. KO opportunities are much easier to obtain.

4. On DL, fox can literally keep distance and laser your ledge options. He has to be ready for much more on YS. Retreating to ledge also is a soft counter to being cornered. Once you have ledge, they have to let you safely ledgehop since ledgehop jab and grab are INV. There is always holes in someone's ledge pressure. If they're positioned to cover almost everything, an empty RLD, a ledgehop into wd back to ledge, a ledgehop offstage retreating fair dj regrab ledge, or a tournament winner fadeback fair regrab ledge will bait them into leaving options uncovered and often leaves them vulnerable. Ganon's ledge options are great.

5. People miss those types of edgeguards all the time, and dropzone dair is underused, especially on YS, as it secures the KO before you allow a situation to manifest where there is more room for error. As far as tilts/jabs, watch linguini vs slox at the 0:30 mark, dropzone dair would've been a good option in that scenario and a lot better on YS.

6. I don't agree. DL has room for chaingrabbing, NIL shenanigans, and only a tad more survivability. It's rarely good to play MORE neutral with a character that clearly destroys you in the neutral game department.

I agree that whatever stage you play best on matters a lot, and also counterpicking is much more complex than simply choosing what stage is best on paper. I'm just saying, YS is significantly better on paper.

 

[VegiLohrd]

Hey if anyone is interested in watching the tournament Renth was at the vods are on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLehFbgooboL2GAOui6OG64rnRx6t-1w-1

 

[Orah]

Yo smashboards finally let me reset my password so now I can actually post instead of lurking in the murky depths of the shadow realm!!! I had given up a while back but now I'm back. Anyways excited to be in San Jose California for G4. Finally made it to a national, gonna be rocking the Ganon till the death of me. But this experience is long overdue. I know Eikelmann is here, I'll be on the look out for anybody who made it out. Hopefully I don't scrub out but atleast I'll soak up all this xp like a sponge. Good to be back with the Ganonites.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Did somebody say Renth?!

 

[ManXan]

I haven't posted for a long time, we'll I'm back and my Ganon has been in the hyperbolic time chamber mastering his disrespect. I may be heading to my city's local this weekend and hopefully I could get my first win in tourney. Wish me luck!

 

[Eevee 8]

Side B FOR THE WIN!!! lol

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it depends on the fox.

if the fox likes to camp, cram his face in with some yoshis. if they prefer to dig in the buns, give yourself some room with dreamland.

objectively speaking, ACE is right, dreamland is definitely the better raw option, IMO.

obligatory "sup dudes i seem to be training and you guys are cool so i guess i'll post for a week and see if my fire sticks around a little longer"

 

[VegiLohrd]

Hey, so I AGAIN switched back to Ganon at the beginning of this year after dropping Peach. I've been character hopping for awhile and while I feel like I've made huge amounts of growth in other areas of my life (I'm an artist in school and that's been going super well) I felt like I stagnated as a player and for the longest time I thought that I should just play better characters.

However after some thought, I realized that my mentality was the thing holding me back more than anything. I tend get discouraged very easily if something isn't going my way initially and I can be a sore loser a lot of the time, so my goal in 2017 is to fix my mental game to not only be a better player but also be a more fun player to play against in friendlies and the like. I think the final straw was having a friend of mine say I was awful to play with. To this end, I decided to pick up ganon once again, as he is the character I have the most fun playing even when I'm losing. I want to take him as far as I can with a good mentality and not drop him for any reason outside of character limitations being the sole reason I stop growing as a player.

It also helped I carpooled with Renth to that PSU tournament and got to spend a good amount of time talking to him about stuff (Hi Renth, it's Lohr.)

 

[Linguini]

Vegi, it's important as a ganondorf player to take losses like a learning experience rather than "why am I playing this character still?" type mentality. I've had a lot of success in the past playing other characters for a few months and then switching back to ganon. Always reminds me why exactly I play ganondorf.

Surprised this thread isn't completely dead yet lmao. Started playing more last week again; been getting motivated to compete with all the recent genesis hype. Went to a tourney yesterday; was on fire for the first time since ceo methinks. Wrecked everybody in sfl pretty much and won lol. Been using all ganon except vs sheik. Went up against a pretty legit sheik and beat him with fox. Just have to practice my fox more in friendlies. Trying to get my shield dropping down next...the movement just feels so awkward though. Idk if I can get used to it.....

 

[spider_sense]

Vegi, it's important as a ganondorf player to take losses like a learning experience rather than "why am I playing this character still?" type mentality. I've had a lot of success in the past playing other characters for a few months and then switching back to ganon. Always reminds me why exactly I play ganondorf.

Surprised this thread isn't completely dead yet lmao. Started playing more last week again; been getting motivated to compete with all the recent genesis hype. Went to a tourney yesterday; was on fire for the first time since ceo methinks. Wrecked everybody in sfl pretty much and won lol. Been using all ganon except vs sheik. Went up against a pretty legit sheik and beat him with fox. Just have to practice my fox more in friendlies. Trying to get my shield dropping down next...the movement just feels so awkward though. Idk if I can get used to it.....

I heard about it, good **** bro. If you need help with the techy shield dropping; you know I'm your boy; hmu one of these days.

 

[-ACE-]

Vegi, it's important as a ganondorf player to take losses like a learning experience rather than "why am I playing this character still?" type mentality. I've had a lot of success in the past playing other characters for a few months and then switching back to ganon. Always reminds me why exactly I play ganondorf.

Surprised this thread isn't completely dead yet lmao. Started playing more last week again; been getting motivated to compete with all the recent genesis hype. Went to a tourney yesterday; was on fire for the first time since ceo methinks. Wrecked everybody in sfl pretty much and won lol. Been using all ganon except vs sheik. Went up against a pretty legit sheik and beat him with fox. Just have to practice my fox more in friendlies. Trying to get my shield dropping down next...the movement just feels so awkward though. Idk if I can get used to it.....

20 ****ing GT

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Linguini had this amazing comment on the sfl pr post, this foo is a god

 

[Linguini]

Jaysun i'm down I want some tips master

Going to inkwell tomorrow. that's an open invite to you too, dave

 

[-ACE-]

Jaysun i'm down I want some tips master

Going to inkwell tomorrow. that's an open invite to you too, dave

I might go. Whats the address

 

[Rachman]

Renth better be practicing because next time I see him I'm not going easy . I'm actually starting to play again so you best be grinding all you can if you wanna take a stock off of King Rachman

If you think you can run away to PA and get 3rd at free tournies and I'll let you get a big head like ik you will you got another thing coming little guy. I'll travel to something and humble you if you don't stay grinding!

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Rachman dawg you're everywhere, bruh

 

[-ACE-]

Lol just wait till Renth actually starts practicing

20GT

 

[Divinokage]

Been waiting for 10 years for most players actually, is it too late now? lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

TL;DW:
Waveland reaction tech-chasing on Fox and Falco is very much viable from 20-70 percent. jab and grab are the only two moves that are guaranteed on the tech-chase if you completely react. Landing tilts or other ground moves requires insane reaction times or a read. Bairing to cover Fox DIing and teching behind you will hit starting at 0%, but it will never reach Falco cause of the length of his roll.

Grab percent flowchart on both space animals:
0-20: Only grab if you want to make a read. Otherwise play defensive and do chip damage. Do not be too commital.
20-70: Waveland reaction techchasing is pretty viable.
70+ Chaingrab

 

[mezbomber]

Hey gang. Long time lurker on the boards here, and a Ganon main since '09. I've been curious about the general opinion of Ganon's WD. I feel like I don't see it utilized very much. (I did see some WD OoS in that SpiderSense match linked above.) It seems that perfect wavelands are easier to perform, but I kind of think that they're easier to telegraph than a max-length WD.

A max-length WD appears to move just as quick as a perfect waveland, and isn't it quicker since you're not doing a SH for the WD? I don't know. I'm mostly a scrub, but I feel like it's increased my mobility in neutral and has helped increase my options for follow ups. Just wondering what the more experienced Ganons have to say on this.

 

[Oldiz]

if you want to cover distance as fast as possible, dash to wavedash is fastest (wavesurfing), what wavelanding offers is the biggest burst in speed which makes it harder for the opponent to defend against.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the waveland also inherently threatens an aerial attack, which, if you've been mashing retreating fair like i often do, is a useful factor in the decision making.

 

[-ACE-]

Just wavedash as a filler. Like when you have nothing else to do. It keeps your dash on tap, and dash >>> run in most cases. Do it when you know you'll need your dash soon after.

 

[Oldiz]

only time you should run is if you need to move and be ready to attack at any time, otherwise dash+wavedash is better

 

[ForTheLulz]

Is it me or can Ganondorf not horizontal waveland on the FoD platforms without double jumping?

I tried to get it to work for 10 minutes or so and gave up after that

EDIT: I got it. But it's balls hard compared to all the other stages' platforms

EDIT 2: Apparently I can only get it landing, not coming up. BS

 

[mezbomber]

I think there's certainly more to his WD than just filler. Not disagreeing with how great his waveland is, I'm just reaching for under utilized tools that may help advance the meta. Dash > WD is pretty good (and that's probably what I'm doing half the time).

I've been trying to balance my air time and ground time a bit more because of his good CC options and his tilts have some great range. It's pretty easy to autopilot and just think that SHFFLing is the only attack in this game, but at low percents, it's pretty easy to become combo meat if you're not careful in the air.

I really don't want to sound audacious (I realize I'm not the one with any kind of high level experience here), but for those of you that say Ganon's WD is garbage or low-utility, how consistently are you able to perform a max-length (perfect angle) WD from stand still or immediately after dash startup? Or even consistently WD into moonwalk (as opposed to waveland > moonwalk)? Have these techniques been optimized and tested, or does everyone just waveland because it's easier?

 

[Oldiz]

wavedash to moonwalk isnt nearly as good, waveland has much more excess momentum which carries over to the moonwalk. Because ganons jumpsquat is so slow I think its crucial to dash before doing a wavedash that isnt oos. to actually move during the 7 squat frames is kinda a huge difference. In neutral i definitely wavedash a lot more than empty hop waveland, because its a much smaller commitment.

 

[-ACE-]

O Oldiz well wavedashing is overall more practical so yeah. empty hop wL is more of a bait or gimmick. Still very great when someone expects an aerial.

 

[-ACE-]

I think there's certainly more to his WD than just filler

Of course, but if you use it as filler you'll find out the practicality of its uses on your own, much better than i could ever explain.

 

[Divinokage]

I did say before that any form of wavedashing/wavelanding is a commitment and can be baited out especially when Ganon tries to close the distance with it. It's a basic mistake many players make and get stuffed because of it so instead what you need to do is make sure your spacing is tight and that you always have room to get mixups in. You should never be in a position where the opponent has the advantage when you cant really press a button to defend yourself and that position is generally point-blank. I mean that let's say you are jumping into a waveland but the opponent already has a move out, that means no matter which button you press you will get beaten out of it.

Make sure you are aware of the opponent's habits and yours too for example if I Fair someone's shield right? What's their response afterwards? Do they roll a lot because I decide to do another aerial, if yes then i can dashdance instead and grab them out of the roll into a big punish afterwards. If they decide to keep shielding, do I run in and grab or go for a shield stab? Things like that need to be thought about 100% all the time. That's how you become great at mixups.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

So when I say awhile ago that i'm gonna go for wavelandss to tech chase, you guys tell me there's no way I can do it, but when Locke Robster comes on and says the same thing, you guys are all for it. White America wins again

 

[spider_sense]

So when I say awhile ago that i'm gonna go for wavelandss to tech chase, you guys tell me there's no way I can do it, but when Locke Robster comes on and says the same thing, you guys are all for it. White America wins again

I do feel like there's some racist Ganons here. LOL

 

[-ACE-]

So when I say awhile ago that i'm gonna go for wavelandss to tech chase, you guys tell me there's no way I can do it, but when Locke Robster comes on and says the same thing, you guys are all for it. White America wins again

Yeah I also had the same idea 5 years ago. Practice it and tell me how it works out for ya. Not very easy to implement.

Oh and fyi, the absence of racism only exists when race is irrelevant. It says a lot about the person who leaps to such a conclusion. (I know you're trolling, I'm just busting balls) lol