Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Renth]

Beam.pro/lunacy_renth

 

[LoOshKiN]

I typed my tag and ganon into youtube and I guess my last uploaded video was EIGHT friggin months ago. God I miss this game, I miss ganon, and I miss you guys, fellow ganon buddies. I've been low key playing again and now I'm itching to go to WIT again or a small local here in Dekalb, Il. Finally getting all the rust off after a 3 year hiatus aside from the occasional (rare) tournament
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FK1KAJeMys

 

[spider_sense]

Anybody ever thought about doing the marth killer to spacies up+b?

 

[spider_sense]

I typed my tag and ganon into youtube and I guess my last uploaded video was EIGHT friggin months ago. God I miss this game, I miss ganon, and I miss you guys, fellow ganon buddies. I've been low key playing again and now I'm itching to go to WIT again or a small local here in Dekalb, Il. Finally getting all the rust off after a 3 year hiatus aside from the occasional (rare) tournament
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FK1KAJeMys

Omfg Lokshkin??? Bro welcome back!? <3333 The G-boards straight up need you my n!gga.

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/KLs7QzjBZXY

Yo this guy has really been grinding that moonwalk lmao. I'm still trying to do sticky walk into reverse moonwalk. Gotta develop the muscle memory.

 

[Renth]

Twitch.tv/gforcegg I'm on next

 

[-ACE-]

One of Ganon's few and best true combos is stomp to side-b to aerial, and I think it's underused. It starts working on Fox at about 12% until 40% for a fresh stomp and no DI. obviously with full DI it won't work at 12%, but maybe 15ish. It works on marth 0-15%. I think those 2 examples alone provide a good idea of what percents it works on for the entire cast. People hardly ever DI the side-b correctly so an aerial is basically guaranteed.

 

[clarify]

One of Ganon's few and best true combos is stomp to side-b to aerial, and I think it's underused. It starts working on Fox at about 12% until 40% for a fresh stomp and no DI. obviously with full DI it won't work at 12%, but maybe 15ish. It works on marth 0-15%. I think those 2 examples alone provide a good idea of what percents it works on for the entire cast. People hardly ever DI the side-b correctly so an aerial is basically guaranteed.

Damn, that's actually pretty genius. I can say from personal experience that Side B to bair is really good at mid percents on most of the cast because they tend to be launched up and behind Ganon when Side B hits. If they DI up, I'm pretty sure uair works instead (obviously depending on the character and percentage).

Of course, my insights are to be taken with a grain of salt until confirmed by someone much better than me, lol.

 

[-ACE-]

I like using it vs climbers since they often DI out of stomp into dsmash. Marth too. If you're lucky you'll get more than one uair and they're really in trouble.

 

[spider_sense]

One of Ganon's few and best true combos is stomp to side-b to aerial, and I think it's underused. It starts working on Fox at about 12% until 40% for a fresh stomp and no DI. obviously with full DI it won't work at 12%, but maybe 15ish. It works on marth 0-15%. I think those 2 examples alone provide a good idea of what percents it works on for the entire cast. People hardly ever DI the side-b correctly so an aerial is basically guaranteed.

Completely forgot about this setup, need to implement this in my game. I did horribly at CEO (Didn't have my controller -_-) Divinokage - Played your boy Ryan, he's super good vs Ganon. He molly whopped me, but he's an absolute sweetheart and would definitely want to play him again...when I actually have my controller. Ugh, I'm so dumb...

 

[Waldoring]

I've been playing a lot of Ganon/Marth lately and noticed that bair is amazing at pressuring Marth on ledge. There's a magic spacing from which you can bair all of Marth's options from ledge (other than roll) while still being safe from aerials/getup attack.

Marth's regular getup/getup attack/(non-perfect) ledgedash all become vulnerable for ~1-5 frames before he can act/before the hitbox of getup attack comes out in about the same place. Since bair stays out for 6 frames, it's pretty easy to have the hitbox on top of him while he's still intangible and get the hit as soon as he becomes vulnerable.

Aerials from ledge are trickier, but invincible nair loses due to Ganon's hurtbox distortion from bair, and fair is either not invincible or doesn't reach far enough. If you read it, cc jab is as good on mid-high % marth as it is on spacies.

If he sits on ledge for too long, you can do a low bair or uair to catch him not sweetspotting/losing invulnerability.

Since bair autocancels nicely at that height, you can jab/grab/ftilt roll in on reaction, and react to slow getup (if you tried to hit normal getup) with a turnaround jab/grab/ftilt.

Also, if you go for a Marth killer and realize that he's close enough to airdodge to ledge, drop shield turnaround jab/low ftilt are the best options for covering an airdodge (though not perfect).

I've started letting Marth back to ledge when it's clear that I can't Marth killer. Eventually this sets up for run off uair/bair against low recoveries or fullhop uair against high recoveries.

 

[clarify]

Bair is just good, period, lol. Especially on Marth on ledge/recovering.

Seriously, I just love timing going out for the bair edgeguard on a Marth spamming Side B. Feels so satisfying.

 

[-ACE-]

This is pretty basic but I'm just throwing in my 2 cents:

When fighting Marth I spend a decent amount of time with my back toward him so I can bair his nairs and fairs. When facing marth, I generally keep a safer distance so that it's easier to space the fair. If Marth jumps I usually uair him immediately, and if he misses the DI you can uair him again.

My favorite approach is probably perfect waveland to ftilt from a shorthop or dj. It covers a lot of ground, which is very useful against marths that love to keep their distance. The ftilt itself has great range and priority when spaced and timed correctly. When marth is at very low % you can sometimes follow up with a quick (try to be frame-perfect) dash to jc grab, which sets you up for a free aerial.

When Marth is on the edge I like to keep the pressure on him with bair. Don't let him lure you in too close to the edge and try to mindgame him into thinking it's ok to get up and then bair him. When the bair is timed right it covers many options (get up, get up attack, ledgehop - depending on inv. frames). It's often that jumping onto one of the lower platforms on YS, DL64, and BF can lure marth into a false sense of security and he will try to get up from the ledge, which sets up for a drop-through bair. You just have to get used to dropping through the platform and bair'ing as soon as possible. Kage is really good at this.

When Ganon is on the ledge and Marth is pressuring him, there are so many options. Once you find an opening, you can jump, ledge dash to jab/grab, as well as ledgehop grab - all useful. Sometimes when I panic I roll lol, and since I rarely roll from the edge I usually don't get punished for it. There is really so much to be said here but I don't want to overstep my boundaries.

Keep in mind that ledge dash > jab and ledgehop > grab are invincible when executed frame-perfect from grabbing the ledge.

Here's an random example of how ledgehop grab can be useful (although in this case whether it's invincible or not wouldn't matter):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKISqEHMC_I#t=1m04s

That old thread is full of goodies :>

Shoutouts to 2009

 

[clarify]

That old thread is full of goodies :>

Shoutouts to 2009

Man, that post's video reminds me why I love Linguini. That Ganon is a work of art (if a work of art can crush your skull in).

 

[Thomas Tipman]

hey quick question, what is the earliest frame you can react on after letting go of shield?

 

[Waldoring]

Drop shield (GuardOff) can be acted out of after frame 15.

New 20XX (4.06) is amazing by the way. 20XX toggles are now entirely distinct from dev mode toggles, so you can easily have both on and play with frame advance as well as programmable CPUs.

 

[-ACE-]

Ace vs spider sense GANON DITTOS GALORE

https://youtu.be/lDqkz9XFmLI

The tipman to dropzone fair at 5:15 lol
26:46 good way to bait them into dropping shield for a free hit
37:39 INV grab baby
41:27 this is a good time to stomp the dj sweetspot. My uair was late, but still. Uair doesn't always connect.
50:40 good stomp on dj sweetspot attempt
51:40 good lh uair regrab
52:54 baiting the shield drop aerial with AC aerial for free shieldgrab

Lazy troll b-moves aside, i missed some good shield drop opportunities, not just for punishes but just evasive shield drops to escape pressure when your opponent is below you. I also yolo ftilt after bair a little too often. All criticism is welcome. Hope you guys enjoy!

 

[-ACE-]

More times than not, I shouldn't be running up and dtilting if i have limited time to edgeguard. I should be running up and low ftilt'ing.

https://youtu.be/_rVo3OhOXfM

 

[clarify]

More times than not, I shouldn't be running up and dtilting if i have limited time to edgeguard. I should be running up and low ftilt'ing.

https://youtu.be/_rVo3OhOXfM

If I'm not wrong, I think this can be done with grabs as well, giving you a shorter grab animation than dashing grab.

I actually forgot about this technique. I need to incorporate this more into my Ganon.

 

[-ACE-]

If I'm not wrong, I think this can be done with grabs as well, giving you a shorter grab animation than dashing grab.

I actually forgot about this technique. I need to incorporate this more into my Ganon.

All you have to do is jc grab for that.

 

[clarify]

All you have to do is jc grab for that.

True, but jc grab is awkward for me. Probably just need to work on it more, but I always just jump instead, since I can't quite get the timing early enough.

 

[-ACE-]

True, but jc grab is awkward for me. Probably just need to work on it more, but I always just jump instead, since I can't quite get the timing early enough.

I recommend grinding it until it no longer feels awkward. I use X and Z.

 

[Oldiz]

you cant do run to anything else than dash grab or jc grab, because you cant grab directly from crouch which is what you do to do running tilts.

 

[tauKhan]

you cant do run to anything else than dash grab or jc grab, because you cant grab directly from crouch which is what you do to do running tilts.

Actually you can run cancel grab (it's still pointless because jc grab is faster). It's weird af, you can grab from the Squat action-state during the first 7 frames of crouching. After that you'll enter SquatWait and can't grab anymore.

 

[clarify]

Actually you can run cancel grab (it's still pointless because jc grab is faster). It's weird af, you can grab from the Squat action-state during the first 7 frames of crouching. After that you'll enter SquatWait and can't grab anymore.

This explains how I can run cancel grab. I'm just gonna take ACE's advice and grind out jc grab, though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/138929927?t=3h2m33s

Me vs. Tsai

I still suck at the Puff matchup. I played all Falco in my pool except against Tsai because I have no experience in that matchup yet. Wound up making it out as second seed. I think I might still use Ganon on Yoshi's vs. Puff in the future, but I'm not sure yet.

Game 2 he tried to Ganon ditto me....all I'm going to say is thank you based Kage for the Ganon xp.

Aside from spacing, I think my other issue is I don't know how to use my movement properly. I can move pretty fast with Ganon now, but I don't have a good balance of players better than me as practice partners so I'm used to just being able to do stupid **** that works.

 

[Waldoring]

I haven't gotten to play many puffs, but I find that preying on their imperfect spacing goes a long way.

Run up/away shield -> uair/bair oos will catch poorly spaced aerials easily. After they adapt and start spacing very safely, you can approach with dash pivot bairs or retreat with bairs/fairs to trade.

If you can force puff into shield, grabs should lead into an aerial at every percent which puff lives to.

Jab and ftilt are good anti-air options, but both lose to bair without trading. Uair will usually trade.

In terms of movement, puff is very good at covering ganon's platform approaches, so don't overuse platform waveland -> slideoff fair/uair/bair. Moving all the way up to the top platform and dropping back down with aerials is a good mixup.

Grounded wavelands are tricky to make use of since puff can cover it so easily, but its one of the few ways to get grabs.

When recovering, make sure that you react out of ledgetech walljump rather than instantly up b, puff doesn't usually get grabbed by it and will punish you every time. Airdodge on stages with relevant platforms (fod/ys/dl/bf) and bair if she's close to ledge.

For rest punish, you can assume that utilt will kill at anything over 25% on most stages, 0% on yoshis, and 30% on DL. If you can't get a utilt, dair -> aerial will get the most percent. Double dair below 22% is a legitimate option since it does the most % and keeps puff near you, which is generally better than hitting her offstage at low %. Only use warlock punch if you're in an awkward position where you don't have time to utilt, but can take advantage of starting wp in the air to get the hit.

Fresh dair kills puff at 76% on DL and at 58% on YS with perfect DI.
Be wary of following up on dthrow/stomp with slow aerials; it's very easy to rest ganon out of dair/fair. Nonetheless, dair->dair is a true combo up to ~22%.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

It's most playing neutral vs puff that i struggle with. Punish game is straight forward and I don't really mess it up.

 

[Divinokage]

Completely forgot about this setup, need to implement this in my game. I did horribly at CEO (Didn't have my controller -_-) Divinokage - Played your boy Ryan, he's super good vs Ganon. He molly whopped me, but he's an absolute sweetheart and would definitely want to play him again...when I actually have my controller. Ugh, I'm so dumb...

Yep it's really hard to beat him with Ganon, I came really close last few times but I ****ed up in the end. =P

 

[dorfmeister]

Haven't played melee since it came out when I was a 10 year old. Started playing 'seriously' after watching the smash doc, and a round of nostalgia finding it and my dusty GC last xmas lol. These threads have been really useful, but are there any video compilations of more advanced ganon techniques and mixups? I've had little luck finding many, since Youtube/google is saturated with ganon tech vids for the other smash games. I've been able to find Bizz's 3-part guide but that's really it.

And yo Divinokage , are you going to make it out to the next "Storm" tournament in Halifax? Super bummed I picked melee up after you went to the last one. A lot of people still talk about playing friendlies with you whenever they see I'm a ganon main!

 

[clarify]

Haven't played melee since it came out when I was a 10 year old. Started playing 'seriously' after watching the smash doc, and a round of nostalgia finding it and my dusty GC last xmas lol. These threads have been really useful, but are there any video compilations of more advanced ganon techniques and mixups? I've had little luck finding many, since Youtube/google is saturated with ganon tech vids for the other smash games. I've been able to find Bizz's 3-part guide but that's really it.

And yo Divinokage , are you going to make it out to the next "Storm" tournament in Halifax? Super bummed I picked melee up after you went to the last one. A lot of people still talk about playing friendlies with you whenever they see I'm a ganon main!

SSBM Tutorials on Youtube give an awesome in-depth guide to learning how to do the many advanced techniques Melee has. In terms of Ganon-specific stuff, I suggest watching any match that had Kage, Bizz, Linguini, ACE, SpiderSense, or any other pro Ganon player and taking notes on what they do, what works against certain characters, etc.

 

[Divinokage]

Haven't played melee since it came out when I was a 10 year old. Started playing 'seriously' after watching the smash doc, and a round of nostalgia finding it and my dusty GC last xmas lol. These threads have been really useful, but are there any video compilations of more advanced ganon techniques and mixups? I've had little luck finding many, since Youtube/google is saturated with ganon tech vids for the other smash games. I've been able to find Bizz's 3-part guide but that's really it.

And yo Divinokage , are you going to make it out to the next "Storm" tournament in Halifax? Super bummed I picked melee up after you went to the last one. A lot of people still talk about playing friendlies with you whenever they see I'm a ganon main!

There's a chance I can go to the next Halifax tourney.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Ace & $pider$ense down for some melee tomorrow?

 

[-ACE-]

Ace & $pider$ense down for some melee tomorrow?

I'm in Georgia my dude. Sorry I couldn't stop by before I left, my girl's mom was sick so I had to leave quickly and packing took forever. Going to be living in Wilmington NC again soon. I heard the scene there has grown immensely with tourneys of like 50 people. The #4 PR'd player is there too. I'll be repping my NC roots and SFL swag. At some point in the next year I think blea or jason may try to visit too. We'll see.

 

[spider_sense]

I'm in Georgia my dude. Sorry I couldn't stop by before I left, my girl's mom was sick so I had to leave quickly and packing took forever. Going to be living in Wilmington NC again soon. I heard the scene there has grown immensely with tourneys of like 50 people. The #4 PR'd player is there too. I'll be repping my NC roots and SFL swag. At some point in the next year I think blea or jason may try to visit too. We'll see.

I'll work really hard to come visit, I'll bring papo too. lol Any Ganon main that has to play you is in trouble that's for sure! Hope your girl's mom gets better. I still have my phone with me (and I'll keep it on and going) text me anytime bro.

 

[clarify]

Can Tipman be used on Marth? I was playing someone on netplay (getting my ass handed to me), but the first game that he decided to show mercy and go Marth, I Tipman'd him when he tried to Up B to the ledge on FoD (we traded hits, though). Not sure if this is a possible consistent thing to do, but I tried it for some reason and it worked.
Wish I was recording, but didn't expect anything like this to happen.

 

[-ACE-]

Can Tipman be used on Marth? I was playing someone on netplay (getting my *** handed to me), but the first game that he decided to show mercy and go Marth, I Tipman'd him when he tried to Up B to the ledge on FoD (we traded hits, though). Not sure if this is a possible consistent thing to do, but I tried it for some reason and it worked.
Wish I was recording, but didn't expect anything like this to happen.

Dude definitely. Tipman spike all day. Just try to space it according to Marth's positioning instead of according to the ledge, because marth can up-b slightly away from ledge and drift in and grab it, avoiding typical reverse uair spike spacing. If you know for a fact he's going to sweetspot you can stomp too, reaches lower so easier to hit.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How can Ganon fight camping ICs?

And if I were to grind the Falco matchup (thinking about doing this because Falcos that don't know the matchup suck at it) what would you guys recommend practicing on my own time other than the general stuff (i.e. powershields, movement, and tech chasing) to become good at the matchup?

And is there anything worth labbing in the matchup or reading about anymore? Most of the good posts about it feel outdated. Like how much of the information on these boards do you guys think is still relevant in the current meta?

 

[-ACE-]

Aerial baits always end up working, intelligent use of platforms, good spacing, no tech flubs.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

What if they just stand under a platform and desync between throwing ice blocks, uairing, and blizzard?