Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

What if they just stand under a platform and desync between throwing ice blocks, uairing, and blizzard?

You have to bait them and not over commit to anything, and be ready to multiple SDI out of blizzard if you get caught slippin. You can pressure them if you pick your openings wisely and space well. You could perfect wL backwards towards them (but not so close that you get punished) into backjump NIL instant drop AC bair for example. If your baits get more aggressive even the lamers fall for it eventually.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The most common way I get grabbed is by jab grab when I'm landing...need to buffer roll instead of jab more. But that's not even what gets me the most. If a good ICs camps me I just keep getting hit until I die and it feels like there's nothing I can do.

What is an example of a bait that works if they are not moving at all? What can Ganon easily whiff punish?

And from my experience using platforms like that only works if you are medium distance or far away. It works if they are intimidated or slow. Otherwise they will just uair you before you can drop through with bair, even if you nil. That was something infinite numbers has exploited against me.

 

[-ACE-]

Nothing is super easily punished, you have to make quick decisions while mid-air. You can run up and retreating uair scoop into dj and take plat or land with spaced aerial, which is a bait in itself since it can't be punished. Risky, but I'm sure you can ASDI grab their jab (and buffer dthrow) before they grab you. If you're getting hit you just need to adjust your distances/spacing. If you know what move they're going for that's a big plus. Change up your macro strat constantly too, make them think you're a defensive Ganon amd then be aggressive when the time is right. Always look for a stomp opportunity. Stomp into side-b into aerial into pressure takes stocks.

 

[spider_sense]

Nothing is super easily punished, you have to make quick decisions while mid-air. You can run up and retreating uair scoop into dj and take plat or land with spaced aerial, which is a bait in itself since it can't be punished. Risky, but I'm sure you can ASDI grab their jab (and buffer dthrow) before they grab you. If you're getting hit you just need to adjust your distances/spacing. If you know what move they're going for that's a big plus. Change up your macro strat constantly too, make them think you're a defensive Ganon amd then be aggressive when the time is right. Always look for a stomp opportunity. Stomp into side-b into aerial into pressure takes stocks.

"Ace could 4 stock me...but I got alotta heart!"

 

[-ACE-]

"Ace could 4 stock me...but I got alotta heart!"

LOOOOOOOOOL

 

[Bl@ckChris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5wgb6gpR8

i'm still cheeks at the fox ditto so i end up having to do this a lot. I lose, but it's something to see, cause i do make a few decent reads/decisions. not sure if theres anything in particular to be learned from this set, as i don't really play or train this character (he's deep in my pocket...) but i always love dropping a little bonus content here for you guys when i accidentally create some.

if you want to see what my fox looks like these days, it exists in the other sets i won at that tournament.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Game 1 was sick. I wish you wouldn't have ledge hopped wiz kicked game 3 though you had that set dude.

Also, I recently won 1st place at my local! All Ganon baby. I 3-2d the first seed in winners ( I was seeded 4th). He was a Luigi main but he played his pocket Sheik against me. Then in Grands his Sheik 3-0d me. I was nervous and on edge the whole set. In second set of Grands I was up 2-0 then he switched to his main and brought it back 2-2 but I CPd Dreamland and clutched it out, even with an SD at low %. I was so stoked ha ha

 

[-ACE-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5wgb6gpR8

i'm still cheeks at the fox ditto so i end up having to do this a lot. I lose, but it's something to see, cause i do make a few decent reads/decisions. not sure if theres anything in particular to be learned from this set, as i don't really play or train this character (he's deep in my pocket...) but i always love dropping a little bonus content here for you guys when i accidentally create some.

if you want to see what my fox looks like these days, it exists in the other sets i won at that tournament.

Where are these tournaments at? Gboro? I'm in Wilmington now.

Btw I'll crush that commentator that thinks DI'ing dthrow behind is always the way to go lmao

 

[clarify]

Btw I'll crush that commentator that thinks DI'ing dthrow behind is always the way to go lmao

Bruh, I wanna see that. DI'ing dthrow behind is a great way to get a bair to the face.

 

[-ACE-]

Bruh, I wanna see that. DI'ing dthrow behind is a great way to get a bair to the face.

Not to mention free regrabs with dthrow or uthrow, and he's drastically reducing his safe tech options and setting himself for more effective MOC (multiple option coverage). Lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I love how people often make the wrong assumptions about DIing dthrow. Floaty players new to the MU are often surprised when I tell them to DI forward at lower percents. Everyone's initial logic is "DI behind is trickier so therefore always do it". But Ganon's got that bair, man.

 

[clarify]

So after trying it out in a few matches and practice sessions, I've noticed aerial Wizard's Foot can be used for more than just edgeguarding and recovery.
When sent high up, if spaced correctly, you can grab the ledge at the end of the move, giving Ganon a fast way to go to the ledge and mix up recovery. This also gives Ganon some coverage from opponents trying to edgeguard him from below. However, this does lose to disjointed attacks, like Marth's upair and fair.
Another very situational use is if you're high enough (I don't have exact measurements), you can space it to end before Ganon hits the ground, getting rid of the landing lag.
I don't know if someone has already tried exploring using aerial Wizard's Foot for anything outside of recovery and edgeguarding, but I feel if mastered, this can advance Ganon's metagame to at least a small extent.

 

[Waldoring]

Against any player who knows the matchup, if you use Wizard's Foot anywhere near the edge you'll die for it. The move has terrible disjoint and won't even trade most of the time.

Using it very high above the stage while getting down is a good once-per-set mixup though.

If the opponent is high enough % that the landing hit knocks down, it'll invariably get a missed tech, covering the endlag.

Similarly, the main hitbox covers down and in front of Ganon, which no other aerial does well, so it's good for catching people off guard just before you land.

 

[clarify]

Against any player who knows the matchup, if you use Wizard's Foot anywhere near the edge you'll die for it. The move has terrible disjoint and won't even trade most of the time.

Using it very high above the stage while getting down is a good once-per-set mixup though.

If the opponent is high enough % that the landing hit knocks down, it'll invariably get a missed tech, covering the endlag.

Similarly, the main hitbox covers down and in front of Ganon, which no other aerial does well, so it's good for catching people off guard just before you land.

I figured it would be more of a mixup/situational thing, but I can see how using it near the ledge is a bad idea.

Any idea what percent roughly would a knockdown be caused by the move? Like, 70ish percent (assuming the character's mid weight, like Mario)?

 

[Waldoring]

http://ikneedata.com/calculator.html

In practice, Fox gets knocked down at ~63, Marth at ~70, Falcon at ~80.

Some characters are worse at killing you for down B-ing near the stage than others; you're safe against Falco unless he can run off dj dair you, Falcon's best options are knee or (moonwalk) bair, which have the potential to trade, and most high/midtiers (bar Luigi/Pika) have trouble putting out a hitbox in time.

On the other hand, if you play frequently with a Marth or Sheik player that doesn't 100% kill you with a reverse up B/ledge drop dj bair, tell them to get on it. It doesn't help you if the player you're practicing against isn't abusing the matchup to the fullest extent.

 

[-ACE-]

You want to be VERY accustomed to the length of your aerial down-B so you can space it with utmost precision. spider_sense and i have played so many dittos that I have really gotten good at keeping my down-B's safe. Baiting someone is all about being more familiar with "the line of safety" than your opponent is. When I played RockCrock a few months ago, he knocked me far and high offstage with with a fair. Instead of jumping toward stage and down-B'ing, I jumped BACKWARDS and down-B'd. I was in the magnifying glass (or close) and he didn't see that I jumped backwards, he just thought I jumped forward. So he hard commits to an offstage fair, but I am nowhere near it. He actually said "WTF" out loud. If you understand effective range of moves and judge distances better than your opponent, you can do something that is just BARELY safe, and since your knowledge > your opponent's knowledge, he may falsely interpret the move as punishable and commit to something that is guaranteed to whiff. This knowledge comes from grinding situations. It's better to grind situations than to just play. Pretty sure (regarding this specific situation) with 20XX you could restart a recovery/edgeguarding situation over and over, experimenting with your limited options. I say limited, but spacing changes everything. You would increase your knowledge of the length of the down-B immensely. You could work on teching and meteor cancels too. Remember, in this case being safe from fair or moonwalk offstage hullhop +dj reverse uair isn't enough, Ganon can also dashjump (fullhop) into dj up-B you, which reaches farthest.

But yeah, being able to snap to ledge after a precisely spaced down-B is useful. You also want to be able to down-B then dj to ledge every time too.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Some characters are worse at killing you for down B-ing near the stage than others; you're safe against Falco unless he can run off dj dair you,

You can get sniped by falco and lose your dj in this situation real easy. A lot of falcos play too passive against Ganon offstage because they treat it more like falcon where his down-b is not as much of a factor. But the ones that know the matchup are really good at hitting Ganon out of his down-b. Many will do triple laser preemptively. So what I try to do is wait for the lasers and down-b in a way where I don't get hit while I'm in it. If I have to eat a laser or two to get the spacing right, it's worth.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So my character identity crisis from the past year is finally over... I've said this before but this time I mean it lol. Falco has emerged as my best character and now I'm dual maining him and dorf. I have his tech down and I think I can start doing well in my region with him once I start going to tournaments regularly again. I use him for the bad matchups and fd. And I use Ganon for mid/low tiers, ICs, and I'm highly considering using him for falco too because I think he benefits a lot from matchup inexperience against the bird.

What I'm trying to figure out now is what matchups and stages it would be worth switching between the two. The dilemma is mostly with floaties and marth. Both falco and Ganon are strong on Yoshis and both can struggle with FD against marth.

What matchups is Ganon better than falco on Yoshis, if any? And do you guys think Ganon is worth using on FD against a chain grab marth? And if you have any general thoughts on the duo, I'd love to hear em as well.

 

[clarify]

Ganon vs Marth on FD is a *****. Ganon gets easily tech chased, but then again, Falco falls into the chain grab Marth.

I guess in both the Yoshis and FD cases, just base it on how the opponent plays. If you think his playstyle can be countered by Falco or Ganon specifically, go for it.

 

[Waldoring]

After grinding out Ganon-Marth with a PR'd Marth main in my region for quite a bit, I don't think FD is that bad.

Marth's hitboxes, both grounded and airborne, very easily cover the edges of platforms which Ganon likes to gravitate towards so much. Barring DL, which is the best stage in the matchup IMO, utilt/sh fair easily stuffs every platform approach and can be very difficult to whiff punish. This severely limits how useful platforms are for Ganon.

On the other hand, platforms let Marth combo, rather than techchase Ganon off the stage. The only way to cover a landing on a platform (with Marth below) is with dair, which is both laggy and predictable.

Additionally, stages like FoD (low plats) and YS make it much harder to pressure Marth at ledge, while they give Marth even more options for poking through plats with grounded moves.

Take this with a grain of salt; I've come to the conclusion that the Marth matchup is unwinnable against someone who knows it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

What about Peach? Who does better on Yodhis against her: Falco or Dorf? If she chaingrabs, is it worth going Ganon on fd? And who's better against her on DL?

 

[-ACE-]

What matchups is Ganon better than falco on Yoshis, if any?

Marth comes to mind, but i don't think that (on paper) Ganon is better than falco in any matchup on any legal stage.

Falco beats peach and Ganon doesn't
(both are true but not by much)

FD has always been pretty decent vs marth.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

What about the Samus matchup?

 

[-ACE-]

What about the Samus matchup?

That's a decent answer to the question as well. On paper falco does better but if they are weak against Ganon at all he'd be the better choice most likely.

 

[Renth]

Marth is one of the few match ups i strike or counter pick to FD.

Platforms give marth too much zoning advantage, the match up is played basically.. rock paper scissors then whenever platforms are involved who ever is above the other is losing. I like to eliminate that option, FD/Dream Land is where i fight marth.

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/jyGz7UcIJMA

 

[X WaNtEd X]

https://clips.twitch.tv/LuckyHotWhaleTwitchRaid

holy shiz

 

[-ACE-]

Get fuc|<ed bronson

 

[clarify]

https://youtu.be/jyGz7UcIJMA

In that second game, n0ne got a pivot ftilt at the 5:25 mark. Bizz on one of his recent streams was talking about pivot ftilts and pivot jabs being underutilized in Ganon's game. Nice to see an example of its usefulness, I need to add this to my game (as well as just git gud period, lol).
Also, that Down B was just sick. Goddamn.

 

[-ACE-]

That was just a wL turnaround ftilt. Tipman is literally 10x better at pivot jab and ftilts than n0ne and bizz. Guy is insane

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Turn around ftilt is insanely easy. I don't think you really need to practice them.

Pivots might help a bit but i don't think they will do that much. Pivot ftilt is truly underutilized though.

 

[clarify]

Turn around ftilt is insanely easy. I don't think you really need to practice them.

Pivots might help a bit but i don't think they will do that much. Pivot ftilt is truly underutilized though.

By practice, I mean get used to actually using it in a match. I've never tried to make it a normal part of my game, and I want to fix that. That was all I meant by it, not that it was difficult.

 

[clarify]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/152866131

 

[Bwmat]

Yo, haven't been here in months. Good to see it's not completely dead

 

[Renth]

Yo, haven't been here in months. Good to see it's not completely dead

Legends never die.

 

[Here Rests A Cemetery]

Yo, haven't been here in months. Good to see it's not completely dead

One of like, 5 boards that aren't completely devoid of activity.

 

[Renth]

.

 

[-ACE-]

.

Dude I miss you.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Hey guys. I've been playing a good bit more lately, and much of it has been ganon. Not sure if you've had much footage lately, but I've won the last couple tournaments here as mostly ganon. The vods are on this channel, here is G5+set two of grands vs a decent peach in our region.

Hope you drift to the channel gate city smash and see some things you like. The week before I had a fox to deal with and also went ganon. I'll also be on tonight, hopefully the stream will be up. Can't guarantee ganon though, as I'm finally proper dual main status for now.

https://youtu.be/G7H7nOPCrBg

 

[spider_sense]

Hey guys. I've been playing a good bit more lately, and much of it has been ganon. Not sure if you've had much footage lately, but I've won the last couple tournaments here as mostly ganon. The vods are on this channel, here is G5+set two of grands vs a decent peach in our region.

Hope you drift to the channel gate city smash and see some things you like. The week before I had a fox to deal with and also went ganon. I'll also be on tonight, hopefully the stream will be up. Can't guarantee ganon though, as I'm finally proper dual main status for now.

https://youtu.be/G7H7nOPCrBg

I remember Swedish Delight's brother mistook me for you. Lmao Now I see why. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the content of our skin.