Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

Wow... logged in after a week and this is the most depressing two pages a young Ganon main can read lol. Guess it makes sense though I came to this conclusion a while ago. Time to practice more characters xD

Theres nothing depressing about trying to make better choices and following the way to victory.

 

[F. Stein]

I suppose so, that's always the goal but now the shiek mains in my area just get to say I told you so whIle I switch lol

 

[Swagic]

It really is depressing. Right now, the way the meta is developing, Ganon is at a MASSIVE disadvantage. If your goal is to win tournaments or be successful at a national level, Ganon isn't your answer. That said, Ganon can still win in most regions. So if someone isn't planning on doing much travel, or isn't interested in the very top level of play (cough cough RockCrock cough), Ganon is a great choice, and those are the people who best develop the meta for the character.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, I mean I've never argued that Ganon is viable for winning nationals. Falcon is basically right on the line of viability in today's meta so Ganon is obviously on the unviable side. But you guys have to remember that Ganon experience/matchup "know how" is still rare, and the Ganon meta is still quite behind. More can be accomplished, of this I am certain.

 

[Divinokage]

It really is depressing. Right now, the way the meta is developing, Ganon is at a MASSIVE disadvantage. If your goal is to win tournaments or be successful at a national level, Ganon isn't your answer.

Not exactly, were you not reading the thread before? I talked with n0ne about this as well, he can still be used if you had studied the player and the matchup you want to use Ganondorf for. It would be foolish to drop him completely and even if I did those years of experience doesn't suddenly just vanish. rofl I see those kinds of things a little too much in the community. Like when Hax decided to switch off Falcon, the fans were sad but in his mind he simply wanted the best of himself then his popularity increased even more as time went on. It's a stupid double standard and the fans should understand that at some point appreciating mediocrity shouldn't even be done. This is the true fighting spirit everyone has that have a genuine drive to get to the top, they truly believe their way of thinking is the best so when that happens they are able to prove things that is incredible in this world. That is also done with a lot of understanding of oneself and your competition. So.. that's pretty much the true way of fighting.

 

[F. Stein]

Well, applying the idea of 'true fighting' is still a little foreign to some of us that don't have gaming as our main hobby. When you say true fighting to someone that has had a hobby of contact and fighting sports for almost ten years I think of something completely different. That's the limitation of the gaming world as opposed to the real one I guess though.

It IS exciting to hear that you'll be able to expand your potential and talent as a player though. Probably a good thing for anyone to do.

 

[Divinokage]

Well, applying the idea of 'true fighting' is still a little foreign to some of us that don't have gaming as our main hobby. When you say true fighting to someone that has had a hobby of contact and fighting sports for almost ten years I think of something completely different. That's the limitation of the gaming world as opposed to the real one I guess though.

It IS exciting to hear that you'll be able to expand your potential and talent as a player though. Probably a good thing for anyone to do.

Ya that definition is different for the ones watching because they have yet to put themselves in the jaws of the monster so to speak. They can only conclude on what they can physically watch and thats completely fine. I respect that opinion since everyone do come from different backgrounds and sometimes their drive to play or watch is not the same.

I guess the reason why the idea of a fighter is foreign to some is because streaming also is relatively new compared to the ones that were fighting the whole time.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'll admit, I have fun playing as Ganon. A lot. But what I'm finding more and more is that I'm only really having fun against players that are around my level or lower than my level at the game. Once I play someone who has better fundamentals than I do, it just doesn't feel fun to me and it feels like such a chore and so much effort has to be put in just to take a stock sometimes. And then you make one silly mistake and that's the stock for you. I find this especially true when I play as Ganon vs Fox. That shine just destroys you man.

As much as I like playing as Ganon against space animals and I've gotten very comfortable in both matchups, it's really hard to just ignore how badly Ganon can get countered in most situations just because of how slow he is. There have been tons of interactions where I had a feeling an opponent was going to approach but I couldn't run out of the way in time.

So I guess you could say that I'm at a dilemma again. I tried maining only Falcon for 6 straight months and I didn't really have better results, nor did I really enjoy the game much at all. Something about solo-maining just doesn't sit right with me. The only other two characters I have a lot of experience with is Falcon and Marth, both of which can do very well vs space animals. I haven't played my Marth vs space animals too much, but I have certainly had really good games as Falcon where any time I was trying to outplay my opponent I felt like I wasn't hindered by my character and I could just do it. I'm just not sure who I would play in tournament vs a space animal, because tournaments now a days consist of 50% space animals at least, some of which are going to surprise you. Maybe I'll figure this out the more that I play Marth and Falcon, but I think much like Kage, I'm only really going to have Ganon in my pocket for a Yoshi's Story CP against space animals.

I feel like my Falcon definitely has the most potential right now vs any Sheik. Sure, there are times where I just get hit by ftilt, but the more that I'm playing that matchup the better I'm understanding what Sheik is looking for and just how well Falcon can exploit that stuff. I'm still pretty confident in my Ganon vs Marth. It's probably the only top-tier matchup that I feel like Ganon has a legit shot in because him and Marth have similar play styles and ranges, and not to mention that Ganon does an extremely efficient job of edgeguarding Marth.

For Puff I'm thinking Falcon. After seeing Wizzrobe play in such a way to make it hard for Hbox to do really anything, it makes me want to try that style out for myself when I play a Puff, cause it just looked so effective, and I can definitely adapt that kind of patience for myself.

Against Peach I'm really liking the Marth v Peach matchup but I definitely need way more experience in it. I like it so much because I feel like you have so much overall control in the matchup and you're even really hard to edgeguard.

I personally can't stand the Falcon ditto, and Ganon v Falcon just feels really bad most of the time, so I'd probably be playing as Marth vs Falcon, because there's something so satisfying about outplaying a Falcon in neutral with your superior range, as well as you edgeguarding ability on Falcon.

For any character ICs and lower, Ganon can definitely do it.

 

[Swagic]

Not exactly, were you not reading the thread before? I talked with n0ne about this as well, he can still be used if you had studied the player and the matchup you want to use Ganondorf for. It would be foolish to drop him completely and even if I did those years of experience doesn't suddenly just vanish. rofl I see those kinds of things a little too much in the community. Like when Hax decided to switch off Falcon, the fans were sad but in his mind he simply wanted the best of himself then his popularity increased even more as time went on. It's a stupid double standard and the fans should understand that at some point appreciating mediocrity shouldn't even be done. This is the true fighting spirit everyone has that have a genuine drive to get to the top, they truly believe their way of thinking is the best so when that happens they are able to prove things that is incredible in this world. That is also done with a lot of understanding of oneself and your competition. So.. that's pretty much the true way of fighting.

Oh, I meant as a solo main

Edit: RedmanSSBM why not Ganon for Peach?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Edit: RedmanSSBM why not Ganon for Peach?

It's not fun. Moving just as slow as Peach in general just isn't fun.

 

[Divinokage]

Oh, I meant as a solo main

That doesnt make sense, everyone knew this path as a Ganon main is very difficult.

 

[tm]

Lol im sorry but thats like discrediting years of experience with all the Ganons that tried the matchup. Did you try playing against m2k's sheik, plup, shroomed? Etc. Dont do this to yourself and have hope where there actually isnt any. If you want prove Ganon vs Sheik is 50-50 like i did in the past id advise you to stop right there. Though this matchup is very doable on Yoshis, i won a lot of matches there vs most sheiks, her cg stops at 50%. Maybe FoD seems like it would be a decent pick.

Pretty sure you guys misinterpreted what I meant when I said "peak play". Not talking about Kage vs Plup rofl.
What I meant is at a level where everyone is aware of their and their opponent's options, what counters what, which things are reactable and not, and execute their game plan properly the way they want to. Never said sheik was easy. Never said it was even close to 50-50, just that it wouldn't be the WORST.

I've heard every ganon and his little brother complain about how it takes no skill to beat them with sheik. Based on watching, there's probably no ganon player that's spent as much time flowcharting or practicing punishes and escapes vs sheik as I have. I can noticeably outpunish players well above my skill level (Kage, Linguini, Bizzarro), and there aren't any tricks to it. Not saying it's even, not even saying it's doable. Just saying that it's laughable that you guys completely write off a MU when you clearly have so much more work to put in before you're even completely proficient at it.

And if anyone thinks that ganon can handle fox at the top level and not sheik "bc sheik destroys ganon, he has no options xd" they're being ignorant. IMO, half the reason people think spacies aren't so bad is because there nobody that knows the matchup well, abuses it, takes advantage of their best unreactable mixups, and doesn't make technical errors every stock. At peak play, fox has wayyyy more options in neutral and is strictly harder to punish than sheik.

/rant

I've always (since switching) described it as such: ganon has an answer for every situation. It's like playing rock paper scissors; if your wall is built well enough, you can even appear to have two options covered at very close to the same time. It's pretty cool. Problem is, at a certain level, you have to pick your option first, because the opponent can position themselves in a way that, due to ganons startup, he has to do something about the threat of an approach. If ganon doesn't pick his defensive option in this time frame, then they'll just get hit. Problem is, the opponent doesn't actually have to commit to any of these potential things. When people are attentive enough to bait your jab and punish with 40+% and an edgeguard situation, the game gets very very hard. You end up in a multitude of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios, and in todays meta, non-commitment is at an all time high -_-

Melee used to be about "you pick some option and i'll pick some option, and one of us will win because style" but now it's all heavy neutral and deciding who has more patience, and who can stand going to the 3rd 4th or 5th intention rather than swinging early. And ganon just isn't well suited for that, because he has to swing at too many false images and his cooldown is too much to deal with that fact.

Cool thing is, if you're just plain smarter than everyone else by a large margin, you can tell when someone is being noncomittal, and find ways to hit them for it, but it still means they were being noncomittal in a spot where they could get hit, which is silly of them.

This description of neutral came about when i was training with PP 3ish years ago when i was still in college. So often i simply couldn't tell where i went wrong, trying to play neutral to the best of my ability. Sure, kevin was a far far better player, and my intentions may have been easier to circumvent than they are now, but once you deal with a character/player with a good enough dash dance, you'll find yourself swinging at images that may or may not be real, and recognizing how damaging that can be.

edit: to some, this may seem a defeatist attitude, but to those who have played a while, I view this as fully respecting my opponent to not rely on their inattentiveness to win matches. There just feels to me, a certain amount of arrogance or bravado where you believe that your opponent will either be outsmarted at least twice as often by you, or that they will have a lapse of focus at least twice as often in many matchups. But with as much on the line as there is now...it's just not fun relying on those things, especially if you're attentive enough to have the proper reads but playing a character too slow to capitalize on them.

very well put!

edit: this is not shots at kage at all, or anyone who CPs vs sheik. just... goddamn every time I mention sheik being not that bad there's backlash. cmon at least learn the CG and edgeguarding before you rag on me

 

[-ACE-]

Honestly I love getting bodied in melee. I could play Plup's sheik until finger pain stops me. But spacies and falcon are much more fun... You can play well for 2 mins and body someone. Puff and peach are more mentally draining but I still enjoy those too. But punishing fastfallers is incredibly fun. Chaingrabbing, edgeguarding, and techchasing are so awesome. You work hard in neutral and have to have lots of focus and patience, but once you grab them (or get an opportunistic knockdown), they're just another Fox (or Falco/falcon). Save FD for falcon, once you grab them you can almost always put them offstage if you're perfect. I'm glad to see tm chaingrabbing so well, I have respect because I have logged insane hours in mastering it. Problem is I'm only lethal when I practice for a day or 2 and for the past 4 months I entered all tournaments with no practice since the last tourney. For the cg you kind of have to enter a zone of focus and quick reacting, but contrary to popular belief entering that zone gets easier with practice just like anything else.

 

[tm]

I just now realized that you can FH instant bair -> falling uair and it's perfect spike timing. Was I the only one that didn't know this??? Seems like a really useful fakeout for spacie recoveries (and others too)

 

[-ACE-]

I just now realized that you can FH instant bair -> falling uair and it's perfect spike timing. Was I the only one that didn't know this??? Seems like a really useful fakeout for spacie recoveries (and others too)

Known LOL. Very good tho

 

[Bl@ckChris]

do sheiks crouch where you are TM? i think that's when i got the most annoyed with that matchup; when jab and grab miss and you get counterhit cause the ***** is crouching, a piece of rage i didn't know i had welled up inside me LOL

on

 

[Renth]

I suck ass vs queer ass campin ****s.

******* that take the timer against me down to 1 minute game one, get run away do nothing but laser falco game 2.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Yeah, kids these days are heartless. Not like the old days where you play this game to make friends and be part of a community. Kids are out for blood, and they will use every advantage that they can think of to get it.

It's a problem.

 

[Divinokage]

do sheiks crouch where you are TM? i think that's when i got the most annoyed with that matchup; when jab and grab miss and you get counterhit cause the ***** is crouching, a piece of rage i didn't know i had welled up inside me LOL

on

Even ftilt whiffs, sheiks crouching beats all of Ganons fast options then you are forced to be in the air which you dont even want to be in.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yep, and by the time you're in range for down angled ftilt, however you got there, she can probably grab you (thinking mostly wavedash forward)

depressing.

it's much more fun to running shinegrab her.

edit: that's right kids, if you want to hit crouching sheik without giving your intentions away, learn pivot down angled ftilt lol

 

[Divinokage]

yep, and by the time you're in range for down angled ftilt, however you got there, she can probably grab you (thinking mostly wavedash forward)

depressing.

it's much more fun to running shinegrab her.

edit: that's right kids, if you want to hit crouching sheik without giving your intentions away, learn pivot down angled ftilt lol

Its not even safe.. lol the neutral game is awful. Ah man.. even if ive beaten a lot of sheiks in my time they hardly abused the best tactics to wreck Ganon every stock instantly.

 

[-ACE-]

You can asdi grab ftilt until like 30%, and asdi low ftilt it a little beyond that. You can probably dtilt too since it's only a frame slower than ftilt, but from a turnaround that's pretty technical. Definitely cc dtilt.

The matchup changes at 8% when DI away can be regrabbed, and changes again when you lose asdi and cc options. It's really important to shield and avoid needles at low%.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Aspiring ganon mains: listen to ace.

Aspiring "I want to place well at nationals" heads, heed the warnings of linguini me and kage

But man ace, you are good at making this character seem viable lmao

 

[-ACE-]

Aspiring ganon mains: listen to ace.

Aspiring "I want to place well at nationals" heads, heed the warnings of linguini me and kage

But man ace, you are good at making this character seem viable lmao

Lol I'm not even trying to. I just try to help the Ganon meta.

Show me a Ganon vs top sheik match where the Ganon loses and didn't make some awful mistakes. Just saying.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol I'm not even trying to. I just try to help the Ganon meta.

Show me a Ganon vs top sheik match where the Ganon loses and didn't make some awful mistakes. Just saying.

Me and Linguini vs M2k? All he needs is for you to whiff one move then your stock is gone every time. With the data I have, I tried at least 25 matches vs his Sheik and I never beat it once. I came close at times but it's ridiculous how he can keep himself safe.

Also the good Sheiks will never use Ftilt when Ganon is on the ground, he'll force him to jump first and stuff you or combo you with Ftilt. She has a lot more range to work because of her speed and needles for sure. If you get grabbed at 0% they'll simply techchase then CG you. The only time I managed to punish Sheik really hard is when they started pressing buttons at the wrong time. Like stomp the dash attack into CG -> death, somehow CCing the ftilt into grab or shield grabbing a misspaced Fair. There's also the uair that's quite good to catch Sheik jumping at the wrong place then wreck her on the platform. Using downtilt is very risky and not good enough reward as like i said they will very often crouch which means it's CCed into dash grab. The recovery on that move is too slow.

 

[-ACE-]

I'd have to watch again. In Linguini's last set vs m2k in Tampa, I remember he got just a TAD too close to the ledge camping m2k almost every stock, allowing him to ledgehop punish into grab (stock gone). Linguini's natural style is to pressure hard with aggressive stage positioning (along with his signature SHFFL aerial baits, and other aerial baits which probably just look like spam to scrubs) and he's the best at it, but unfortunately all it takes is a few pixels, which can be detected under the m2k microscope (lol). This allowed m2k to literally skip all neutral game and go straight to punishing. He prefers this since his punish game is so solid. Punish game is perfect for him, where there usually is a "best" option to pick, as it coincides with his general mentality toward the game. But in matchups where it's neutral heavy, you can see weaknesses in his game. No one has perfect neutral, and you have to force people with crazy punish games to make more decisions in neutral. If you roll the dice enough eventually you'll roll that lucky 7. Maintaining the perfect amount of space from her is very hard but very important. You don't want to sacrifice too much space, but you want to force her to make more decisions (because everyone cracks eventually, even if it's a small mistake). And obviously not get too close when she has all her options/frame advantage.

Take my comments at face value. Don't assume I'm arguing that Ganon has a good matchup vs sheik.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm with Kage here as well on the Sheik matchup part, because at Big House 5 I really wanted to see if I could at least do well vs Sheiks from many other different regions. I found that there were some games that I won here and there, but most of the Sheiks I played I had a really hard time vs in general. Very attentive Sheiks tend to wait for the right moment to put out their ftilt and space it right for me to not be able to grab it even if I CC. Some even got privy to crouching right next to my shield and dtilting repeatedly, and if I retreated away, I got hit with a dash attack. Probably one of the cheesiest things that actually works on Ganon that Sheik can do is just jab you when you're in the air and grab right after that. That thing has got nutty range and it just pokes you for long enough for Sheik to covert. There are some times where I'll hit Sheik with a dtilt after CCing her move, but often she's able to DI it away, allowing no followup. Or even worse, you'll try to follow up and she'll just slap you in the face. It just seems like, as a character, the natural things to do with Sheik, in reactive situations, are just really unfavorable for a slow character like Ganon.

Now why the hell can't I say the same about Falcon vs Sheik? Well, Falcon moves faster than Sheik for one thing. Falcon can also combo the mess out of her, and pseudo chain grab her and even tech-chase at lower percents. Admittedly, Falcon still gets comboed pretty hard by Sheik, and edgeguarded all the same, but Falcon's strengths in the matchup and in neutral definitely make up for how easy it is to punish him. Ganon just doesn't really have that, even with his chain-grab.

If Sheik wants to commit to calling out your landing with a dash attack, she has a much easier time doing it and getting away with it than Ganon does trying to dash attack her for not dashing right. Actually, if anything, dash attacking vs Fox I feel is more effective as Ganon because Foxes tend to dash dance a lot anyway, while Sheiks don't dash dance too much since her dash is so short, and instead they play more facing one direction and wavedashing more, or even just auto-cancel fairing. Even when you finally have Sheik in her shield, a good enough Sheik will react to you even coming close to her and do a nair out of shield before your fair or whatever move you were trying comes out. I haven't even begun to talk about needles yet.

By all means, it's certainly do-able at the mid level. For sure. Sheiks at that level usually don't have enough experience with all of their options so they usually miss something that they could use, which you can exploit. Beyond that though, I feel like it's a lost cause.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I still think sheik is impossible at the highest level. Your punish game on her is only close to guaranteed death on FD, this is the one time that platforms are actually bad for ganon's punish game. And if you're center stage when you finish the chain grab, it's not a death setup, it's an edge guard setup. Sheik's recovery isn't the greatest, but it's good enough that at that %, finishing with bair at 80% still leaves multiple recovery options that ganon can't cover all at once.

Add in that sheik absolutely destroys ganon in neutral and has a BETTER punish game. Her cg on ganon lasts to around the same %, only thing is it's guaranteed death if they don't **** up the edge guard. And then there are just stupidly easy death setups like ftilt --> fair. Yes, ganon gets a damn good punish off of a grab, but it's just soooo much easier for sheik to land a grab on ganon and her punish game is even better.

I see where you're coming from tm, but I'm not a believer in that matchup. I legitimately would love to be proven wrong, but until I see it, I'm cynical. Bizz vs plup, kage vs shroomed, linguini vs m2k. 3-0's pretty much across the board.

 

[-ACE-]

I still think sheik is impossible at the highest level

Pretty sure everyone agrees with this, tm and I just aren't being as much of a negative Nancy about it as everyone else lol.

I think Plup, m2k, Swedish, and shroomed are the sheiks we're talking about when we say top level. Yeah, pretty much impossible.

faceroll, plank, hat, tafo, okami, amsah, android, and other local sheiks can be tough, but they all have exploitable habits. If they play well, it can seem impossible, but it's not.

You NEVER have to end the sheik cg with bair. Bair can be the best finisher if they are really good at partial DI and force you to end the cg in the 60's. Fair is given even from turnaround starting at 70%ish. When the situation is reversed, and sheik is chaingrabbing you at center stage (I basically always DI toward center until 50's, where partial DI can get you out), it's not a death setup either. You're basically guaranteed ledge off proper DI from her followups (FD). Platforms help too obviously. The main issue like Joe said it's her ease of getting the grab to begin with, which is a direct byproduct of her neutral game advantage. The higher the level of play, the more neutral matters.

 

[NoFluxes]

Yesterday I placed 4th out of 44 entrants at a local tourney, I was salty as hell when I lost to a wobbling IC, that **** is lame as hell, it is what it is though, next time I'll have him, I managed to 3 stock him game 1 lmao, my mistake counterpicking dream land vs IC...

Also for anyone that wants to see how I deal with Peach players, you're welcome to watch this video, I played the neutral game very well. https://youtu.be/Ei9UHjEgvww

 

[Swagic]

Ganon can actually SDI out of the dthrow-dair wobble setup. Apparently f you go up, you can jump?

From the IC boards

 

[RedmanSSBM]

my mistake counterpicking dream land vs IC...

That's actually a really solid stage for Ganon vs ICs. High platforms you can easily use to abuse IC's weaknesses, a top platform that isn't easy for them to reach, great survivability (when you don't get wobbled). Definitely one of the better stages in the matchup, I believe.

 

[NoFluxes]

That's actually a really solid stage for Ganon vs ICs. High platforms you can easily use to abuse IC's weaknesses, a top platform that isn't easy for them to reach, great survivability (when you don't get wobbled). Definitely one of the better stages in the matchup, I believe.

You'd have to see the set, but yeah I played towards the bottom of the stage, I messed up, I was tilted already probably...

 

[-ACE-]

Vs multiple hitbox moves, you have time to hold c-away and double tap away. Practice it. Afterward, keep holding c-away and go straight into buffered roll away against the IC's blizzard setups.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Also for anyone that wants to see how I deal with Peach players, you're welcome to watch this video, I played the neutral game very well. https://youtu.be/Ei9UHjEgvww

Lol blendtec plays sooooooo ****ing gay. Kid's gotten pretty good in the past few months though, good win dude. I gotta learn from some of those habits vs peach.

-ACE- I hear you. And I agree completely with the just-below-top level sheiks being beatable. I've had some very, very close sets against faceroll and tm could probably take him. I just mean at top level, which seems to be the debate here. Are you sure sheiks cg only goes to around 50? I swear ive been grabbed to higher even with the proper DI.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol blendtec plays sooooooo ****ing gay. Kid's gotten pretty good in the past few months though, good win dude. I gotta learn from some of those habits vs peach.

-ACE- I hear you. And I agree completely with the just-below-top level sheiks being beatable. I've had some very, very close sets against faceroll and tm could probably take him. I just mean at top level, which seems to be the debate here. Are you sure sheiks cg only goes to around 50? I swear ive been grabbed to higher even with the proper DI.

Depends on the stage entirely, Sheik CG ends at 50% on Yoshi's side platforms, FoD can end even earlier.

 

[-ACE-]

Depends on the stage entirely, Sheik CG ends at 50% on Yoshi's side platforms, FoD can end even earlier.

Sheik cg ends at 60ish anyway. Fake them out with partial DI so they don't know which direction to choose. SFL sheiks go into tilts at 55% because of this.

 

[Divinokage]

Sheik cg ends at 60ish anyway. Fake them out with partial DI so they don't know which direction to choose. SFL sheiks go into tilts at 55% because of this.

How? That's not even possible to tilt after a downthrow on Yoshi's, they have to use an aerial or waveland on the platform.

 

[Oldiz]

Can't ganon reaction techchase on platforms though? He has to cover less distance. Then continue the CG could be pretty effective.

 

[Swagic]

Sheik cg ends at 60ish anyway. Fake them out with partial DI so they don't know which direction to choose. SFL sheiks go into tilts at 55% because of this.

Really? Could've sworn it was around 90...