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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Id do my Marth vs any Ganon but i guess i could try my day 1 Sheik Tm. Lol
NoFluxes
Smash Rookie
I agree with all the fellow Ganon mains here. Sheik is definitely a struggle, I'd even argue it's his worst match-up. I mean it's a matter of ridiculously good spacing, You CANNOT get grabbed once at all cost, you have to camp platforms and out space Sheiks very hard.
I highly recommend FoD as a counter-pick, and I recommend starting on BF if possible. Don't ever approach with fairs unless they are perfectly spaced and even full hopped, avoid using double jumps at all cost, otherwise you might end up in a zero to death combo.
I have a lot of experience in this match-up already from many tournaments I've competed in the Chicagoland area, I've played some notable sheiks, but one of the best I've faced in bracket was one named Beach. This guy gave me solid advice, but yeah it's rough, I'd have to say 70:30 in Sheik's favor overall.
Don't give up, don't tilt during your matches because of getting grabbed, and if you do get chain-grabbed, do that **** back and try to end the CG with a fair or up-air and edge guard her until her stock is gone. Don't ever let her recover for free, hold edge and punish her up-b because it has really bad landing lag, you can easily re-grab her and follow up with another d-throw or back throw and repeat the process.
I'm very knowledgeable in this match-up, I plan to take names someday. I hope this advice is useful to anyone here.
I highly recommend FoD as a counter-pick, and I recommend starting on BF if possible. Don't ever approach with fairs unless they are perfectly spaced and even full hopped, avoid using double jumps at all cost, otherwise you might end up in a zero to death combo.
I have a lot of experience in this match-up already from many tournaments I've competed in the Chicagoland area, I've played some notable sheiks, but one of the best I've faced in bracket was one named Beach. This guy gave me solid advice, but yeah it's rough, I'd have to say 70:30 in Sheik's favor overall.
Don't give up, don't tilt during your matches because of getting grabbed, and if you do get chain-grabbed, do that **** back and try to end the CG with a fair or up-air and edge guard her until her stock is gone. Don't ever let her recover for free, hold edge and punish her up-b because it has really bad landing lag, you can easily re-grab her and follow up with another d-throw or back throw and repeat the process.
I'm very knowledgeable in this match-up, I plan to take names someday. I hope this advice is useful to anyone here.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
I love this post, but I solely disagree with the FoD counterpick. The platforms benefit sheik way too much, I guess the stage overall is fine (because of the small sides/blast-zones) but overall her tilts are devastating, even if she can't chaingrab you; it works the other way around. I'd personally pick BF, Yoshi's, or PS.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
In theory you're right, FoD vs sheik isn't that great because the platform heights. Also high ceiling makes it so you need more % to get the stomp kill (pretty huge). But for whatever reason, I seem to do ok on FoD lol. I never ban it in the mu and will cp it if yoshi's is banned and I got rekt on battlefield.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
-ACE-
Colin Mcgregor better watch out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=246&v=e4MJtzALpsc
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Mango ain't ready for Nate Diaz lol
XLAX_OVERDOSAGE
Smash Apprentice
What I try to do in neutral against sheik is to stay out of her dash attack range at all times when grounded. If she is coming at me and about center stage, sometimes I will wavedash back - dtilt/ftilt if I see her continuously dashing at me from the ground. From there, even if I get hit from my wavedash, I can still CC the hit from tilting the analog stick downwards for my wavedash, and potentially tech within 20 frames if they hit me within that timeframe of me inputting the wavedash. Especially at higher percents, amsah techs can really save your life in this MU.
CCing can be a good tool against ftilts, and you can tilt/jab out of it depending on your range. Its definately not something to always make a habit of as following up on it can be tricky if the sheik ASDIs your hits out of her tilt and takes advantage of your slower tilts.
On PS, sometimes i prefer platform camping as coming to her at the opposite side of the stage can be somewhat disadvantageous. As long as you're not predictably staying on the platforms, you can mix up your movement by wl'ing off platforms and wl'ing on to the stage to cover distance and center stage back.
Let me know if some of this is too situational
CCing can be a good tool against ftilts, and you can tilt/jab out of it depending on your range. Its definately not something to always make a habit of as following up on it can be tricky if the sheik ASDIs your hits out of her tilt and takes advantage of your slower tilts.
On PS, sometimes i prefer platform camping as coming to her at the opposite side of the stage can be somewhat disadvantageous. As long as you're not predictably staying on the platforms, you can mix up your movement by wl'ing off platforms and wl'ing on to the stage to cover distance and center stage back.
Let me know if some of this is too situational
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Lowered platforms on FoD could be helpful for chaingrab. Neutral is gonna be ass no matter what stage you play on. You might as well try to go for stages that allow you to enhance the punish game imo.
http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/79638051?sr=a 57:40
This is how bad my mindset had gotten. Watch to the end of the game. There was no misunderstanding about the score (bo5)
Actually 59:44 is a better place to start off if you're not interested in the dk vs Falcon matchup rolf
Also, I ended up winning the set and splitting him for first... (lanky/Yakal weren't taking it very seriously, though)
There's actually a Ganon/Falco match in there for grands, @ 3:14:15 (actually another one @ 1:02, went about as well)
... ****ing sds
This is how bad my mindset had gotten. Watch to the end of the game. There was no misunderstanding about the score (bo5)
Actually 59:44 is a better place to start off if you're not interested in the dk vs Falcon matchup rolf
Also, I ended up winning the set and splitting him for first... (lanky/Yakal weren't taking it very seriously, though)
There's actually a Ganon/Falco match in there for grands, @ 3:14:15 (actually another one @ 1:02, went about as well)
... ****ing sds
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Divinokage
Smash Legend
Almost anyone could beat Mango in a fight with the way he is now lol.
Has there been discussion, in this topic, or elsewhere, about what the optimal thing to do to punish jigglypuff's rest is in every situation? It would be a multidimensional matrix.
Whiffed rest, survived rest, fatal ready with some punish time (or maybe just by how far/how much time you have to punish + relative location)
Jigg's percent
Which stage and where on it
Whiffed rest, survived rest, fatal ready with some punish time (or maybe just by how far/how much time you have to punish + relative location)
Jigg's percent
Which stage and where on it
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
If you amsah tech rest you can tournament winner + dj warlock punch.
That's cool and all, put largely irrelevant since you'd probably wreck me with just about any character in the game.
LOL it's funny bc beach is the sheik with the worst record vs me of the notable ones.
Idk, I think locke put the dsmash punish post in the superthread.
Probably not. Here's what's in my head, %s are just estimates and like you said everything depends on stage and positioning.
Whiffed:
Low %, stomp -> fair (or try stomp -> stomp)
med %, utilt
high %, stomp / fsmash
Survived:
Good luck, I've personally never had time to get a free hit after surviving. In that case you can try to read what they'll do as soon as they wake up and punish that.
Killed and you DI'd down and away to die faster (don't do that at low % on dreamland by the way, it's a waste):
usually the best I can get is a stomp / fair. Depeds on positioning and platforms.
LOL good to know. Don't know if I've ever been rested in an opportunity to do that though.
I still think you guys are misinterpreting me with the sheik thing. I get my ass beat by sheik all the time, I KNOW that the MU sucks and I'm not saying it doesn't. Here's my logic:
1. ~75% of ganons (or more, I'm just guessing this figure) including the top ones are considerably weaker vs sheik than vs other popular characters (NOT because the MU is bad, which it is)
2. There are very clear, available, and reliable punishes and edgeguards, optimizations of very common situations which have not been explored, ways to make it harder for the sheik, etc, that said ganon players are not utilizing / have not practiced very much. (I'm guessing that this is because they don't enjoy playing the MU and would rather just avoid it or something, idk)
3. Said ganon players are in no position to say that the MU is LITERALLY impossible, at least while the opponent is just as lazy.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
How about matchup guides? Orat least suggestions?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'll contribute but too lazy to do the meat of it lol
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
That. That's the hard part.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol I know right. Neutral takes a lot of patience. I think it's smart to give your opponent time to display some habits on the larger stages that you can exploit. You kind of have to play RPS some on smaller ones and choose your moves with punishment/follow-ups in mind. Ganon definitely punishes sheik hard. Edgeguards CANNOT be dropped, so important.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Nah it's definitely when they set up the aerial into utilt -> Rest or just utilt -> Rest. I never actually got rested off a whiffed grab in my life. lol I got rested OOS from a blocked FH downair >_<
One thing Ganons must always remember vs Sheik is don't get stuck in shield or shield too long. It's too easy for Sheik to dash grab that ****. Needles on shield into grab is not a thing and can be punished btw.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I meant when you're grounded kage, we were taking about amsah teching rest lol.
What do you do vs needle grab? I've had buffered roll not work before.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Shield DI away with WD OOS.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Guess I didn't shield DI. Thanks
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Divinokage
I'm probably going to treat those needles just like fox drill, yoshi dair, IC blizzard, etc and go straight to c-away and double tap away for 2 shield SDI's into buffered roll. I'll work on wd oos.
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Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Rest is my second least favorite move in the game. Behind shine, but just barely above Sheik's ftilt. I've been rested out of a whiffed jab.
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Gotem City Vigilante
Amsah tech.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Only works if you hit a techable surface
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
You said whiffed jab. Which means you're grounded. Hold down and in + R and you amsah tech. Momentum will push you to ledge, where you tournament winner into dj warlock punch.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
How much stage do you need to get down far enough to hit the ground, though? It sounds great, but I can't amsah tech if I get hit next to the ledge
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Actually you can. I remember I did it accidentally vs ripple when I first started playing. Not sure exactly what I did, but it was near the ledge on pokemon stadium. I don't think it's really any different from any other amsah tech situation. Probably won't work if you're literally right next to the ledge, but otherwise should.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Was stadium transformed? It's a weird stage.
It's almost impossible to amsah tech rest. Rest does 12 frames of hitlag, which makes your ECB shift up off the ground near the end of hitlag (frame 9 or 10 iirc). Thus you're required to SDI diagonally after the ECB shift happens to get low enough to tech, and the SDI angle probably needs to be precise (This I don't know for sure though) because you can barely amsah tech rest anyway.
Also, down and in di won't work even at 0% according to ikneedata. In theory, proper down + away trajectory di + c-stick ASDI down should work at 0-29% if you get the SDI. In practice I wasn't able to tech rest at all, getting the SDI at the right moment is very hard.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I had a feeling that rest wasn't so easily amsah techable. Thanks for clearing this up.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
T
tauKhan
I've done it before a few times. Maybe I held c-down also because I do double stick DI a lot, but not every time. Keep practicing bro.
You guys should do more actual in-game practice than looking up **** on websites. I'm not speculating here. YOU CERTAINLY CAN AMSAH TECH REST.
You guys should do more actual in-game practice than looking up **** on websites. I'm not speculating here. YOU CERTAINLY CAN AMSAH TECH REST.
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