RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
But it's haaaaaaaaaarrrdfddddddd
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
He wasn't saying it's impossible, he was saying it's incredibly difficult. Unlike sports based on physical actions that are easier or harder for certain players, video games have very clear, defined physics about what you can and can't do. Having the frame data can literally show us what is or isn't possible. TauKhan has pointed out that in 12 frames of hitlag, you can't SDI down until frame 9 or 10, meaning best case, you have 1//20 of a second to input the SDI. If it's something that you hadn't even considered as possible, there's no way you're going to react in the right window. We get it, it's possible. All he's saying is that it's incredibly difficult and very frame tight, which can be important information to have.
Don't forget, some of us haven't been playing this game competitively for over 10 years. Sure, theorycrafting is exactly that- theory. But in theorycrafting, there's a difference between what SHOULDN'T work and what CAN'T work. You're not going to tech Fox's shine as Ganon, but SDI to switch which direction it's going is possible, even if it's difficult.
Linguini
Smash Master
Sup homies! Not ganon related although I'm liking this discussion that's been going on here lately.
I have a new EP being released today on a small label from Portugal. You can check out the tunes on this link and please buy it if you like em! I could really use all the support I can get!
https://www.beatport.com/release/somebody/1801831
Cheers!
I have a new EP being released today on a small label from Portugal. You can check out the tunes on this link and please buy it if you like em! I could really use all the support I can get!
https://www.beatport.com/release/somebody/1801831
Cheers!
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Swagic
I just don't like when people **** on actual good advice based on real experience. If the frame guys say something's "almost impossible" it'll cause a lot of people (users and lurkers alike) to write it off as not worth learning. When they should definitely figure out how to do it. Thank God no one is preaching about SHFF wL being useless because it's a 1 frame input.Also swagic it's impossible to SDI and tech on a floor. You just hold the direction (ASDI plus regular DI). The incredibly hard part is simply hitting R.... Lol.
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ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
mother took my controllers and computer adapter and hid them off somewhere while I was gone for 2 weeks
rip
time to get on that mkwii grind
rip
time to get on that mkwii grind
Seems I wasn't clear enough. To be able to tech the rest, you absolutely have to SDI before the double stick di because the ECB shift on frame 10 of hitlag moves you off the ground. More details can be found here at around 13:00.
The tech can still work sometimes when the SDI hits, I can certainly recall teching knees occasionally. It's just very inconsistent, and rest is even harder to tech than knee with 2 frames SDI window. Probably still worth to try the tech when you'd die with survival di, but it's important to know you have to try to SDI.
On another note, if you're crouching, amsah tech will work normally.
I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but kb vector is determined on the hit frame before SDI can be done, so you can't alter which way the shine sends you that way.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I whiffed a grab and got rested so I wasn't crouching. I was ASDI'ing down (maybe I did use c-stick since I often use both sticks) and DI'd down and in, got sent to the ledge, techroll animation toward jiggs took place, and the momentum carried me to ledge (then tournament winner, dj, warlock punch). I guess my Ganon has magical powers. Long time suspicion confirmed.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Puff's an exception to this I didn't mention because I thought it wasn't relevant. Puff, dk and Kirby have their ECBs always attached to their topN bones from the bottom, and for those chars the upward shift on frame 10 doesn't happen. With puff it's indeed easy to amsah tech rest. Melee's weird 
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
We need to get away from this "that **** is too difficult, not worth it" mentality if we ever want to push the Ganon meta.
If we gave up because it was hard, we wouldn't be playing melee, and certainly not ganon...
After testing just now I can't get it even at 0% with ASDI and TDI alone.
In fact, I can't even get it with SDI...
...nvm I realized I was trying to SDI at the beginning of the hitlag instead of on the 11th frame.
So yeah it's possible, you have to SDI *just* below the down and away notch during the last 2 frames of hitstun...
I can't replicate it at all. I think the rest must have been stale.I whiffed a grab and got rested so I wasn't crouching. I was ASDI'ing down (maybe I did use c-stick since I often use both sticks) and DI'd down and in, got sent to the ledge, techroll animation toward jiggs took place, and the momentum carried me to ledge (then tournament winner, dj, warlock punch). I guess my Ganon has magical powers. Long time suspicion confirmed.
You don't have to SDI if you're jigglypuff bc you aren't lifted upwards like most characters
whoops looks like I repeated some stuff.
Anyway, I've literally never seen T tauKhan argue a fact that was wrong. Regardless of whether or not something is practical, he's spitting facts. You can't amsah tech an unstale rest as ganondorf without SDI at a very particular angle at a precise timing. Whether or not it's worth practicing is up to the individual.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
The only thing I can think is that I rotated the stick and got a SDI input that way (if SDI is truly necessary). I certainly didn't slam the stick at all and didn't intend to SDI. I guess I'll just remain in the minority that this isn't that hard, I've done it 2-3 times, can't remember. All it takes is reading the rest. I've got witnesses, not really concerned with the frame gods believing me lol.
Tm, what about the frame window for SHFF wL at the perfect wd angle instead of perfect wL? I'd bet if you input R a frame before the last possible frame you still get a useful wL.
Tm, what about the frame window for SHFF wL at the perfect wd angle instead of perfect wL? I'd bet if you input R a frame before the last possible frame you still get a useful wL.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
The whole point was pointing out you can amsah tech rest. The argument "it's too hard" is simply a sucker mentality.
You haven't seen everything then.
You don't actually have to do a drastic motion with the control stick for unintentional SDI. I try to amsah tech knees all the time. 9/10 times I die to the horrible di, but occasionally I get the SDI and the tech accidentally.
If you would die to the bad di o.w. survivable rest, I don't think attempting amsah tech is worth it, but as a last resort you might as well go for it. "Almost impossible" was a hyperbole, my intention was to say I don't think it's ever going to be consistent. I think it's hard to get the timing of 11th/12th frame sdi down compared to something like SDI on fox's upair, but maybe with effort you could get good at it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Genius.
I don't know what the "perfect" angle is, but I used 1/2way between the horizontal and 45 degree notches to estimate (more likely that your input matches this anyway)
For SHWL (no fastfall) you only waste 1 frame in the air (and that's 1 frame that you would have been falling before the waveland anyway). You barely lose any distance. It's noticeable, but only with reference points and scrutiny.
For SHFFWL (earliest possible fastfall) it's a bit worse, I generally got 2 frames of being airborne. The extra distance lost is just barely noticeable.
My methods were really imprecise but should be similar to what's achieved in practice.
The distance lost by doing this is as opposed to a perfect waveland is noticeable (about 1/3 to 1/2 of ganon's standing width from arm to arm, if that makes sense), but it increases the timing window and eliminates the possibility of misinput due to the random element in frame sampling. I'm a fan
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Insta-bought.
Lmaoo you just made me realize I lurked here for 8 years before making an account
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Glad you came to that epiphany. But there's no need to explain to me the most elementary basics of SDI.Lmaoo you just made me realize I lurked here for 8 years before making an account
Renth
Smash Hero
So many players lose before the match begins, I spent a lot of time with dashizwiz. He taught me a secret to mental improvement which down the road I have taken a game from Plup, lamb chops, colbol and so on. Note: I've never clinched a set vs those names but thanks to a few months of mental training I learned you can truly compete with anyone.
Basically, never put any player on a pedistol for any reason. Take all you know about their "smash fame" throw it all straight into the garbage.
I am convinced, before a set begins against anyone. Yes, with Ganondorf. I can beat any player regardless of their character or their title. Defeating yourself before the match begins is routine for almost every player.
Play safe, play smart. I no longer see dashizwiz as a top player, I see him as another ***** who's gonna get ****ed.
All that being said, I have a few gimmicks I'm going to make a very short video of. Instant KOs on space animal set ups, godlike tech traps and most importantly. Learning how to condition your opponents.
TLDR. You dummies think too much. Just kill them.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
Yeah, this game is hard, but it's not that hard. Long as you stay on the right segment in the wheel of options, any opponent can be taken apart. Some opponents/characters just have much more narrow windows for what actually punishes their options, but that doesn't make it impossible.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Renth, you are a man among men. Gonna go watch some of those old sets where you took some games off hbox.
:ganonfist:
:ganonfist:
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
How have I not seen this before
https://youtu.be/57K8XouV6pw
LOL
Also, looks like the close set between hbox and renth is no longer on YouTube. ****
https://youtu.be/57K8XouV6pw
LOL
Also, looks like the close set between hbox and renth is no longer on YouTube. ****
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
The rest amsah tech **** is sick. Getting that in a match into warlock punch would be so hype. But I can only think of one opportunity you'd have to use that.
I can see the amsah tech situation happening when you're recovering barely onto stage and puff punishes with ledgehop rest. Aside from that, puff's main rest setup on Ganon is utilt, which would rest you in midair. Sometimes she'll get you from reading a tech on a platform or from uairing you on a platform into missed tech rest. And if your DI is bad, you can get rested from dthrow. But if your defense is strong, neither of the last two setups I mentioned should be happening often.
So yeah, I don't really think it's that big a deal whether it's worth learning or not. It won't really change much. Besides, most puffs I've played will just continuously bair me to edgeguard because it's very easy and doesn't leave them open to the possibility of rest punish. And when I watch other footage of the matchup, that's what I see as well.
I think optimizing DI off stray hits is far more important in that matchup. It's a battle of endurance. The punish game in that matchup is mostly reads aside from low percent stomps and two-hitter throw combos. But when she hits you, if you are not careful, you can get destroyed. Decreasing the chances of that happening makes the trades more favorable to you. Like if she can only get two hit combos, like you do, your openings will count for way more. And considering neutral sucks so bad, your 7-40% openings need to count about 2-3x as much as hers to make up for how more often you are going to get hit.
I can see the amsah tech situation happening when you're recovering barely onto stage and puff punishes with ledgehop rest. Aside from that, puff's main rest setup on Ganon is utilt, which would rest you in midair. Sometimes she'll get you from reading a tech on a platform or from uairing you on a platform into missed tech rest. And if your DI is bad, you can get rested from dthrow. But if your defense is strong, neither of the last two setups I mentioned should be happening often.
So yeah, I don't really think it's that big a deal whether it's worth learning or not. It won't really change much. Besides, most puffs I've played will just continuously bair me to edgeguard because it's very easy and doesn't leave them open to the possibility of rest punish. And when I watch other footage of the matchup, that's what I see as well.
I think optimizing DI off stray hits is far more important in that matchup. It's a battle of endurance. The punish game in that matchup is mostly reads aside from low percent stomps and two-hitter throw combos. But when she hits you, if you are not careful, you can get destroyed. Decreasing the chances of that happening makes the trades more favorable to you. Like if she can only get two hit combos, like you do, your openings will count for way more. And considering neutral sucks so bad, your 7-40% openings need to count about 2-3x as much as hers to make up for how more often you are going to get hit.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Are you guys forgetting that if you miss the tech, you'll fly off the stage and be able to punish rest? You only have a point when Ganon is under like 20%. I don't see where all this opposition is coming from. I mean why argue against something really good?? I've done this at least twice with warlock punch, I think another time where I couldn't punish. Some of y'all some negative Nancy's.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
You guys sounds like "yo, I have nothing to lose in the majority of situations, but it's difficult... Not worth learning"
Locke ban these mortals.
Locke ban these mortals.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Nah.
I've always thought that amsah teching should at least be attempted in the situations where it looks like it could be done. I can't tell you how many times I thought to myself that I could have maybe amsah teched that rest here or there. I guess according to Ace, just the thought doesn't count enough lol.
I'm still bad at amsah teching in general. I keep holding down and not to an angle so that I roll and don't actually go flying.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Good Lord, LMAO. I give up.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
LMFAO. I ****ing love you.
For me it's the opposite nowadays haha. I amsah tech way too much in situations where it's actually bad. For example when fox hits me near a ledge or on a platform, amsah teching just makes me get hit even harder out of the tech roll.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
It's more like "there are a lot of other things that should be learned before this because it can really only be applied to one or two situations... Not worth learning on my own time." I agree that you should always go for it if given the chance. And hopefully it's possible to get good at it that way. But unless you can give me more examples of situations where it can actually be applied, I don't see how this is something important to the matchup.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Yeah, if the opponent is attentive enough, they can reach to an amsah tech in time to upsmash up if they are Fox, for example.
Another tech that "shouldn't be attempted" is the 18 frames of ledge invincibility you get from up-sweetspotting the ledge so you can down-b with actual invincibility. There's very few or no situations to use that at all, right guys?
Of course not. I've not seen a single Ganon try to do that **** on purpose in a match to actually prove its usefulness. We could sit around all day talking about what we should and shouldn't do, but unless we really try to be more innovative and think outside the box, we're really not gonna push this character very far.
This goes for any Ganon tech really.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Whiffed grab
Whiffed jab
Aerial landing lag
Up-b landing lag
Whiffed down-b
Whiffed side-b
Roll punished with rest
Techroll/tech in place punished with rest
ANY whiffed ground move
AND you can randomly hit the tech on a platform and possibly have a chance of living at super low%
Come on, the opposition here is almost arguing against itself. If you'll die anyway, just try it. You have NOTHING to lose. Good God, I was just trying to help. At least tidal wave gets it. Simple **** can be really difficult for people nowadays.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Hey Locke, I've done that vs Tipman and spider_sense. I only grab/jabbed, but the frame window was much easier making it more useful, practically. You guys need to push harder, seriously.
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Renth
Smash Hero
Renth
Smash Hero
I have played more single player melee than competitive.
As hard as that is to believe, most players these days don't love the game they just want to be good at it.
Enjoying the game will skyrocket your skill level.
Glennwood
Smash Cadet
Well guys I finally did part 1 of my goal, best Ganon main in my area, hell I have top players (in my area) argue I am now the best in the province but I don't think Im there yet. I want to thank all the Drofs out there who gave me advice and helped me get to where I am today.
This rest tech talk has sparked my interest. So basically most people think it isn't worth going for? I can see getting rested at a percent you are sure to survive at not worth going for it but why not when you'd die anyways? Am I missing something? I don't know, maybe I'm just not getting it but even situational tech is worth learning, don't make it a main focus of practice but knowing about it and knowing you can do it 1/10 times always helps IMO. Being a low tier you gotta take all you can get even if it isn't super important it still can be important at least once.
This rest tech talk has sparked my interest. So basically most people think it isn't worth going for? I can see getting rested at a percent you are sure to survive at not worth going for it but why not when you'd die anyways? Am I missing something? I don't know, maybe I'm just not getting it but even situational tech is worth learning, don't make it a main focus of practice but knowing about it and knowing you can do it 1/10 times always helps IMO. Being a low tier you gotta take all you can get even if it isn't super important it still can be important at least once.