Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

A perfect wL is a perfect wL regardless of what jump you use. Good to hear you use sh perfect wL. Even if they aren't quite perfect it's still a great bait

 

[tm]

Hey guys I have a quick question about perfect wavelands.
I see a lot of ganons do quick double jumps and FF before wavelanding, but I usually do it out of a normal short hop.
I know that doing the DJ FF wavelands make the timing slightly easier, but do they go furthur? I'm watching some videos of other ganons and it looks like their WLs are faster than mine.
Is it just preference? or is there some other advantage DJ FF WLs have over SH WLs?

DJ FF WL has a 2-frame window, whereas SH / FH FF WL has a 1-frame input (requires frame-perfect shoulder button press, subject to small random chance of misinput)

they go the same distance if you're holding completely horizontal afaik. If there is a difference it's negligible imo

 

[Bwmat]

The extra frame makes it soooooooo much easier.

I get djwl like 95%+ of the time, and shwl like 50% or less

 

[-ACE-]

The extra frame makes it soooooooo much easier.

I get djwl like 95%+ of the time, and shwl like 50% or less

Very true, but the dj gives away your intentions. Sucks that shff wL is a one frame input, but you truly can fake out a good player with it. As soon as their mind tells them you're about to execute an aerial, you wL instead. The dj animation is very easy to spot and they will already know you're about to wL depending on how you position it. If I had to guess, I'd say by utilizing the perfect wd angle instead of straight horizontal, you get your 2 frame window back for a useful (and still pretty long) wL, which is underused.

 

[Waldoring]

Backwards ffshwl seems easier than normal ffshwl, is there actually a difference?

 

[Potet]

Only thing that matters is the angle of the airdodge, ganon can airdodge completely vertically and still waveland which makes them so good.

Yeah I know about the horizontal wavelands. That's what I'm doing. I must be just seeing things, cuz like I said, it looks like certain ganon players wavelands are faster and go further than mine.

 

[-ACE-]

Backwards ffshwl seems easier than normal ffshwl, is there actually a difference?

I've gotten that feeling too before, more than once, but I doubt it.

 

[Potet]

Very true, but the dj gives away your intentions. Sucks that shff wL is a one frame input, but you truly can fake out a good player with it. As soon as their mind tells them you're about to execute an aerial, you wL instead. The dj animation is very easy to spot and they will already know you're about to wL depending on how you position it. If I had to guess, I'd say by utilizing the perfect wd angle instead of straight horizontal, you get your 2 frame window back for a useful (and still pretty long) wL, which is underused.

I think short hop waveland is underused. (I havent seen many ganons use it) Like you said, the dj animation is an obvious red flag that you're about to waveland. I like to mix up dj and regular sh wavelands, and amongst my sh wavelands I mix up doing the backwards jump animation (the backflip thing) too. It seems to work pretty well to make my WLs unpredictable. Especially if you sometimes throw out arials after quick DJs. It makes them respect your jumps.

 

[Diosama]

I dj waveland on platforms and sh waveland on the ground

 

[tm]

Very true, but the dj gives away your intentions. Sucks that shff wL is a one frame input, but you truly can fake out a good player with it. As soon as their mind tells them you're about to execute an aerial, you wL instead. The dj animation is very easy to spot and they will already know you're about to wL depending on how you position it. If I had to guess, I'd say by utilizing the perfect wd angle instead of straight horizontal, you get your 2 frame window back for a useful (and still pretty long) wL, which is underused.

I'll test that sometime.

Backwards ffshwl seems easier than normal ffshwl, is there actually a difference?

I felt the same way for a while, but no they're both still 1 frame.

Very true, but the dj gives away your intentions. Sucks that shff wL is a one frame input, but you truly can fake out a good player with it. As soon as their mind tells them you're about to execute an aerial, you wL instead. The dj animation is very easy to spot and they will already know you're about to wL depending on how you position it. If I had to guess, I'd say by utilizing the perfect wd angle instead of straight horizontal, you get your 2 frame window back for a useful (and still pretty long) wL, which is underused.

I agree for high level players that know that MU, which is almost nobody. Everyone else isn't really trying to predict what I'm doing (at least in my experience), and since I don't spam it, the DJ doesn't really give away the perfect waveland (even if I've done it before, most players aren't expecting it). If someone is that ready for it, then you can mix them up by partial wavelanding or tomahawking instead.

Regardless, both wavelands out of DJ, SH, and FH, both perfect and partial, are underutilized.

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

Hey guys I have a quick question about perfect wavelands.
I see a lot of ganons do quick double jumps and FF before wavelanding, but I usually do it out of a normal short hop.
I know that doing the DJ FF wavelands make the timing slightly easier, but do they go furthur? I'm watching some videos of other ganons and it looks like their WLs are faster than mine.
Is it just preference? or is there some other advantage DJ FF WLs have over SH WLs?

Distance does not change. However I believe SH FF wavelands are 2 frames faster and save your DJ making them more 'efficient' although harder to do. Once you get the timing down it becomes easier, like all other tech.

To others, please correct me if this is wrong.

 

[itsbme]

Linguini gives n0ne the two-hitter quitter

Grandpa edit: I didn't know it already got seen. Still a cool moment to see again.

 

[ForTheLulz]

Chadd had a very close set with Azen wow

 

[-ACE-]

Chadd had a very close set with Azen wow

Yeah that was a frustrating game 3 to watch. Chaddd kinda choked.

 

[tm]

Buncha vids

vs Nexic (Falco)
vs Mingee (Falco)
vs Crip (Puff)
vs Led Free (Marth)
vs Mingee (Falco)
vs KJH (Fox)

edit:
highlights

gfy on marth
https://gfycat.com/ImmediateVacantDouglasfirbarkbeetle

SDI out of waveshines -> grab -> CG -> kill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFekdJmFijY&t=5m30s

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Really impressive chain grab. I STILL can't even consistently chain grab sheik LOL. Why did you take kjh to FD game two?

 

[tm]

I've been taking everyone to my worst stages the past few weeks, for improvement's sake

 

[-ACE-]

I've been taking everyone to my worst stages the past few weeks, for improvement's sake

Good **** I've done that too

 

[PseudoTurtle]

tm you have this habit vs falco where you fair when they're in the corner. Not that it's necessarily a bad habit, but mingee kept jumping over it and punishing you. Pretty sure this is why linguini chooses to full hop up air here instead. Watch that second set and you'll see what I mean. Full hop up air would have connected in almost all of those situations.

Bold strategy to CP fox to FD lol. Can't say I'd be brave enough to do that, but I will sometimes pick it intentionally in friendlies for the same reason.

 

[tm]

tm you have this habit vs falco where you fair when they're in the corner. Not that it's necessarily a bad habit, but mingee kept jumping over it and punishing you. Pretty sure this is why linguini chooses to full hop up air here instead. Watch that second set and you'll see what I mean. Full hop up air would have connected in almost all of those situations.

Bold strategy to CP fox to FD lol. Can't say I'd be brave enough to do that, but I will sometimes pick it intentionally in friendlies for the same reason.

Yeah that's me knowing that he's going to full hop and reading it and trying to punish him for it, as if he's fox or something. Obviously it doesn't go high enough lmao

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Was able to catch Chaddd v Azen and Menta-calculus vs NMW or whatever his tag was (I feel so bad for forgetting his tag) while on vacation. Sucks to see chad choke like that, but Menta definitely did pretty decently against NMW. He is still scared of even decent Ganons.

 

[Glennwood]

Finally got to play my first large tourney around here. Didn't get past top 32 but everyone was just as good if not better than me with a lot more match up experience. I still enjoyed it, only regret is my only stream match I got I lost (A very very ****ty SD on game 2 as well) but live and learn, I was pretty drunk anyways so that's my johns. Gotta another small one next week, I think it'll go a lot better than this one. I'll probably net a high placing, it's only small and the best player in my area is only gonna TO and not play.

UPDATE: Got the bracket today, took 17th place... damn one W shy. Well I got put out by the guy who took 5th so I don't feel as bad (not that I did anyways)

 

[tm]

inb4 Kage drama

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Honestly if Kage doesn't want to play Ganon anymore because of his perception of the meta, then by all means go ahead and play someone else. The worst thing you could do is back down on your word and go back to Ganon without giving the other character enough time. It's one Ganondorf player. Sure, it's maybe a little disappointing to see him drop Ganon, but it's ultimately his decision and I can respect it.

 

[-ACE-]

Where did he announce his departure from Ganhood?

 

[Divinokage]

I did my thing in the past and im still not able to get good results right now at majors, it went downhill from 2012. I can still win locals and maybe regionals with him. After 10 years its enough so Ganon is going in my pocket for specific matchups or players but at this point i have to main someone else. Once you played that long with him youll get it.

 

[-ACE-]

Man... TAS Ganon would wreck a national. 1st ****ing place. Look at what wizzy is doing with falcon. I truly think falcon could win a national and Ganon could take out anyone except Hbox, Plup, m2k. Armada, mango, PPMD, leffen, shroomed, Swedish, laudandus, cpt faceroll, Blea, porkchops, Ryan Ford, and top Falcons would be insanely hard but possible.

 

[-ACE-]

I played 4 seriouslies with gahtzu at tgl. 2 of them, I got 2 stocked. 3rd match, I had him and went for a swag wizkick spike and whiffed (could've really just stomped or Tipman). He said "yeah baby" and edgehogged me. 4th match, last hit situation I lost. I don't think the falcon matchup is that bad if you're punishing correctly, pressure hard, and SDI everything away/DI everything right. A year ago I played gahtzu and he just destroyed me because I wasn't focused on DI.

 

[Divinokage]

Man... TAS Ganon would wreck a national. 1st ****ing place. Look at what wizzy is doing with falcon. I truly think falcon could win a national and Ganon could take out anyone except Hbox, Plup, m2k. Armada, mango, PPMD, leffen, shroomed, Swedish, laudandus, cpt faceroll, Blea, porkchops, Ryan Ford, and top Falcons would be insanely hard but possible.

Theres more players than that who can easily can take out Ganons these days. Isnt that enough proof he cant hang at the top in this meta? He can still win locals though!

 

[-ACE-]

Theres more players than that who can easily can take out Ganons these days. Isnt that enough proof he cant hang at the top in this meta? He can still win locals though!

I don't think Ganon has been pushed as hard as falcon has. We haven't seen close to his max potential.

There aren't enough super good Ganons.

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

broo you have been playing ganon since i was 8-9 years old(i think since 06' right?) thats crazy as hell that your dropping him D: Divinokage

 

[-ACE-]

broo you have been playing ganon since i was 8-9 years old(i think since 06' right?) thats crazy as hell that your dropping him D: Divinokage

Well it doesn't seem like he's totally dropping him.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I don't think Ganon has been pushed as hard as falcon has. We haven't seen close to his max potential.

There aren't enough super good Ganons.

Damn where have I heard this before....

 

[Divinokage]

I don't think Ganon has been pushed as hard as falcon has. We haven't seen close to his max potential.

There aren't enough super good Ganons.

Ya his punish game can be improved for sure but i think many Ganons have mastered his movement quite well. You still need to do hard reads in the neutral game and you cant change the way his buttons work. I actually played against Flamingroy yesterday along with n0ne and its clear he was showing us the limitations of Ganon lol. We had a lot of troll matches but i felt like he could just wreck both of us.

Anyways, i hope it doesnt sound like a downer or anything like that im actually pumped for the new chapter in my career and Ganon will always be in my pocket for lets say ICs or on Yoshis in general. I simply feel like i want to prove i can be at the top in this meta. Theres absolutely still uses for him i just need to be smarter in general on my choice of when to use him. If anything its going to be more hype when he comes out at times. Also i dont want to go on this subject too long but thats how i think a major tournament should be won. 2 or 3 characters to cover your own weaknesses and theirs.

 

[Swagic]

We all know there's absolutely no way for Ganon to win against a top Sheik.

Top Falcons will win a majority of the time, because of the sheer amount of focus it takes for Ganon to win the matchup. It's possible, it's just extremely difficult.

Fox is a pain in the ass, and the cg doesn't help much because it requires getting a grab in the first place, then reads at the lower percents to keep it going. Plus waveshines and shinespikes are just unfair.

Falco and Marth are interesting ones. I think Ganon CAN go toe to toe with Falco, just watch Linguini, but it's another VERY difficult matchup. Marth-Ganon is another really hard one, but definitely one I think is doable, with enough training in it.

Peach is floaty and dies at 50% as long as she doesn't spam turnips until she gets a stitch.

IC's are a great matchup for Ganon.

I'm still not sure how I feel about the Puff matchup. At a low-mid level, it's almost free. At a non-Hbox level, it's hard. Hbox plays so much differently than everyone else, though, that it's super difficult. But Ganon, on paper, seems like he should have an advantage, provided he doesn't get rested. I need to do some more working on that matchup to get a good feel for it.

Ganon WRECKS the low tiers, though.

But look at that list. Fox is the most common character, and Sheik is stupidly easy to pick up. I completely respect Kage's decision to change characters and keep Ganon in his pocket. And honestly, the way the meta stands right now, it seems like the most optimal way to do things, until the next new development.

 

[Diosama]

Time for me to become top ganon in montreal

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Good post swagic, I agree with pretty much everything you said, though I will say getting a grab on fox isn't as tough as you're making it out to be. It's difficult for sure, but very doable. I still say the best course of action would be to dual main or even triple main in today's meta at kage's level.

For us low to high mid-level players, ganon can still perform well and the meta should be pushed. I think the only matchup where he's helpless in is sheik. Even vs fox, he's still ok depending on the stage. Poke and FD are obviously terrible. Marth and peach are winnable. Falco and falcon harder, but still doable. Every puff besides hbox is beatable.

 

[-ACE-]

Kage, flamingroy is OG Florida. Linguini and spider sense experience. That guy is nasty good. You'd have a few more big awakenings if you moved to FL. Your spacies game is limited compared to linguini's. You're both great but different styles and habits. I think spider_sense is very good vs spacies too but sometimes allows that play style to carry over to other matchups which hurts him sometimes.

 

[-ACE-]

We all know there's absolutely no way for Ganon to win against a top Sheik.

Top Falcons will win a majority of the time, because of the sheer amount of focus it takes for Ganon to win the matchup. It's possible, it's just extremely difficult.

Fox is a pain in the ***, and the cg doesn't help much because it requires getting a grab in the first place, then reads at the lower percents to keep it going. Plus waveshines and shinespikes are just unfair.

Falco and Marth are interesting ones. I think Ganon CAN go toe to toe with Falco, just watch Linguini, but it's another VERY difficult matchup. Marth-Ganon is another really hard one, but definitely one I think is doable, with enough training in it.

Peach is floaty and dies at 50% as long as she doesn't spam turnips until she gets a stitch.

IC's are a great matchup for Ganon.

I'm still not sure how I feel about the Puff matchup. At a low-mid level, it's almost free. At a non-Hbox level, it's hard. Hbox plays so much differently than everyone else, though, that it's super difficult. But Ganon, on paper, seems like he should have an advantage, provided he doesn't get rested. I need to do some more working on that matchup to get a good feel for it.

Ganon WRECKS the low tiers, though.

But look at that list. Fox is the most common character, and Sheik is stupidly easy to pick up. I completely respect Kage's decision to change characters and keep Ganon in his pocket. And honestly, the way the meta stands right now, it seems like the most optimal way to do things, until the next new development.

Absolutely no way? Yeah it's tough but tm is one of the best at that matchup and he's far from perfect. Why jump to conclusions when Ganon has hardly pushed the punish game to the max? For ****s sake only me and tm truly cg well. Look at Tipman's edgeguarding. Look at the finer points of Linguini, Kage, and Eikelmann's neutral vs sheik and combine them. No one has truly pushed it far. All sheiks are limited vs Ganon because they've never had to train to be anti-Ganon specialists. Maybe KK is the closest.

Getting grabs on fox isn't so impossible. Good neutral creates openings. SHFF WL MAH NI66A

Climbers are actually even and you should really learn it before you play against a good one at a national.

Puff is horrible, and the amount of characters Ganon destroys can be counted on one hand.

 

[Swagic]

Good post swagic, I agree with pretty much everything you said, though I will say getting a grab on fox isn't as tough as you're making it out to be. It's difficult for sure, but very doable. I still say the best course of action would be to dual main or even triple main in today's meta at kage's level.

For us low to high mid-level players, ganon can still perform well and the meta should be pushed. I think the only matchup where he's helpless in is sheik. Even vs fox, he's still ok depending on the stage. Poke and FD are obviously terrible. Marth and peach are winnable. Falco and falcon harder, but still doable. Every puff besides hbox is beatable.

I've been shined one too many times trying to get that grab.