Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Bwmat]

Fox and sheik are the absolute worst. I can't see Ganon winning at the top level ever.

 

[-ACE-]

Not many top level foxes are top level vs Ganon

 

[Swagic]

Yet

10chars

 

[-ACE-]

Yet

10chars

What Ganons will they get practice from?

 

[Swagic]

What Ganons will they get practice from?

Any Ganons that get to be good enough to consistently start making top 64/32

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Secondaries are the future tbh

 

[-ACE-]

Secondaries are the future tbh

No one will EVER have a pocket Ganon like a former Ganon main. Having that true pocket Ganon can really help. Think about all the people that lose to IC's... Solid pic vs Marth's that aren't accustomed to the mu also.

 

[tm]

LOL sheik is far from impossible. Even the best sheik in the MU can get touched to death with very little potential for defensive counterplay once you get a grab / read. Compare that to the fastfallers / puff, where you have to continue to make reads and pressure them well to get damage and edgeguards.

95% of ganon players (and probably 95% of non-ganon players too) just convinced themselves or let everyone else convince them that sheik just bodies ganon, no questions. You have to be a WAYYY better player than the opponent to win that MU. Wrong.

Your personal weaknesses are holding you back FAR more than your character limitations, ALL of us. It's impossible to prove, but I promise that at peak play, sheik isn't even ganons worst MU.

 

[Linguini]

Def. is ganons worst matchup lol. I've played the matchup enough throughout the years and lost to sheiks in the gayest of ways too many times. Even back when I was really good at the matchup sheik players who had no idea how to truly play against ganon would take me out abusing the simplest combos and strategies that simply crush ganon.

Maybe at a high level it's doable but at the top play ganon vs plup and I wish you good luck lol. Kage knows what I mean.

I think ganon can win vs any char at a top level except sheik and jiggs. Spacies have always been considered a horrendous matchup with ganon but I always thought they weren't to bad due to the fact you can kill them with 1-2 few good reads.

Now being willing to endure the amount of gayness that is thrown at you at the top level of melee is a whole different story altogether. Play ganon at a national. EVERYONE is going to attempt to gay you and play as whack as possible. It's a tough life for a ganon main but it's truly rewarding when you beat someone playing a high tier because you have to outplay them by a significant margin.

Ace I think you underestimate the falcon matchup lol. No offense but just because you got close to ghatzu in a few friendlies doesn't mean much. Play it in an optimal fashion like wizzrobe and gravy and it will be very hard for ganon to win. Vs Falcons that don't play gay like s2j and n0ne it's def doable as I played each for about an hour at CEO and was going even.

Looking back(when I was actually serious about this game) I would've trained my fox more to counter sheik/falcon/jiggs. I did my best to push the character forward, though; and I must agree that ganon still has a lot of untapped potential.

Who it will be that carries the mantle and takes the char to the next level I do not know; but it sure as hell ain't me lol. Been losing interest in the game recently since I started playing more consistently 4 months ago. I dare say melee has been getting boring. Been playing for 10 years so I suppose it was only a matter of time.

Don't get discouraged ganon peeps. You CAN play and win with ganon at a top level; but it's certainly going to take more effort than any of the top players(even the gods) to be truly successful with him. It's never been done, but I hope ganon doesn't become a lost character and his development stagnated which I feel he has been increasingly ever since I retired serious play in 2012.

Keep on fistin'

 

[-ACE-]

I wasn't using my friendlies with gahtzu as evidence for anything, I often talk about random matches I have. But I've played gravy a few times too. I don't think any Ganons really have their DI down in that matchup. When I slam away every time I'm hit, DI throws down and away, and use up and away DI on certain uair/knee combos, I don't fall victim to all these combos that so many people say are free/auto.

 

[spider_sense]

I wasn't using my friendlies with gahtzu as evidence for anything, I often talk about random matches I have. But I've played gravy a few times too. I don't think any Ganons really have their DI down in that matchup. When I slam away every time I'm hit, DI throws down and away, and use up and away DI on certain uair/knee combos, I don't fall victim to all these combos that so many people say are free/auto.

That's the thing that's so wonky about the Falcon matchup, let alone particular play-styles. I always had better matches with Gravy and I've had some sick sets with N0ne when he was down in Miami. Playing those two gave me alot of knowledge on the match-up, but when I had to play Ghatzhu. He just ran away and dash dance where none of my moves would hit (if I jumped then I put myself at risk by getting uair) his nairs were spaced so well that I couldn't even CC and once he got he got the grabs on me it was wraps. lol Pretty much got sent to gotem central, but it always seems like Ganon struggles with fighting turtle/super defensive play-styles. You can't throw out moves arbitrarily without it getting whiffed punished. I talked to Colbol about it and he told me some of my bad habits, so I'm going to work on implementing it. I know I sound like a broken record, but I need to travel more. Wish I had 20xx so I could lab out frame perfect options like everyone else does.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Signed in just to congratulate kage on seeing the light. Ganon is best used as a murderous secondary, killing off ICS, Luigi, and a couple other weird heads.

Melee has just become too movement based for him to exist solo in this meta

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I agree that he's just not viable as a solo character in the meta anymore. You're definitely right, Linguini. Ganon still has a lot of untapped potential, but it can really only go so far. I love the character to death but there's a reason why I don't play only Ganon anymore. I think what n0ne has been doing with his Ganon to get wins on floaties like Samus and even Peach is a smart idea. Hell, I really want to see a good Ganon vs aMSa again because I think that matchup is in Ganon's favor, but we'll just have to see in time if that's actually true.

In all honesty it's nice to see that Falcon is actually doing much better now than he was several years ago. The Fox and Sheik matchups for him don't look so impossible, while for Ganon the evidence is hardly there that he does well vs top players. The Ganon v Sheik matchup is definitely doable, but it's very hard and most certainly not fun for me at all. Hell, even Marth v Sheik isn't too fun for me.

Chris is honestly right. Ganon is just too slow to be able to keep up with the better characters in the game at a high level. Of course, I'm no where near high level so I'll keep playing Ganon until I get there, cause it's very do-able here in NC.

 

[-ACE-]

Signed in just to congratulate kage on seeing the light. Ganon is best used as a murderous secondary, killing off ICS, Luigi, and a couple other weird heads.

Melee has just become too movement based for him to exist solo in this meta

How long you been lurking and not posting?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Sheik's bull**** is too much despite the heavy punish game. It's a pitty that it has to be THAT MU where Ganon can actually reliably get guaranteed 0 to deaths. Sakurai's like "well you can kill her, but you don't actually get to touch her."

I think there's just too many problems with getting grabs. My main training partner is a Sheik currently. And we've arrived at the conclusion that it mostly comes down to how good her spot dodge and jumpsquat are. She can spot dodge as an option select against a variety of mixups on her shield. And her jumpsquat allows her to get oos fast enough to counter a lot of **** on reaction way easier than other characters. That's why it's way easier to tomahawk floaties and even Falco.

But yeah, I'm starting to faze out of Ganon too. I'm still gonna main for him a little while longer because there are a few things I want to completely master before I move on so that I can pick him up again after not playing for awhile without much trouble. It's like the original reason I played him was to have fun without having to put too much effort into playing. But Ganon just happens to require an insane amount of dedication that kind of waters down the fun. I think had I started playing several years prior when he could still fit into the meta a bit I could've had more fun with him. But now, anyone in any decent region knows how lame people play against Ganon and pretty much any mid/low tier. It sucks all the enjoyment out of the game.

Still not sure what top tier to play. I naturally suck with Falcon and ICs. I don't really enjoy Peach, but I'm naturally decent with her. Same with Puff. I suck with Marth. My Falco can go pew pew and blip blip a bit but it's kind of the same thing as Ganon where I find people just play super lame vs me. I think I'll probably end up going Fox or Sheik cause I do the best with them without really trying. Sheik kind of makes me barf so most likely Fox.

 

[Glennwood]

I hate how lame people play against the mid-low tiers. They just cheese you out 90% of the time. Sure maybe I'm just salty cause people are playing the "optimal" way against me and just gunning for the W which is fine of course but what erks me the most is the fact people play like they're scared of him (at least in my cases). It just ruins a match when all they do is try to shine spike, r a sheik just want to hold ledge against you. I love Ganondorf, his play style, his disrespect but as I've been getting better and better and playing people who know what they are doing it's hard to justify maining him now, I mean I still will, put way to much effort in to quit on him but if I'm gonna be putting up my money (which I don't have a ton of, yay university) and driving for hours I'd like to actually get more games in or at least place higher. I feel like this is a thing most low tier mains go through though. I don't think I'll switch mains till I am at least the best Ganon in N.S

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

I agree that he's just not viable as a solo character in the meta anymore. You're definitely right, Linguini. Ganon still has a lot of untapped potential, but it can really only go so far. I love the character to death but there's a reason why I don't play only Ganon anymore. I think what n0ne has been doing with his Ganon to get wins on floaties like Samus and even Peach is a smart idea. Hell, I really want to see a good Ganon vs aMSa again because I think that matchup is in Ganon's favor, but we'll just have to see in time if that's actually true.

In all honesty it's nice to see that Falcon is actually doing much better now than he was several years ago. The Fox and Sheik matchups for him don't look so impossible, while for Ganon the evidence is hardly there that he does well vs top players. The Ganon v Sheik matchup is definitely doable, but it's very hard and most certainly not fun for me at all. Hell, even Marth v Sheik isn't too fun for me.

Chris is honestly right. Ganon is just too slow to be able to keep up with the better characters in the game at a high level. Of course, I'm no where near high level so I'll keep playing Ganon until I get there, cause it's very do-able here in NC.

I personally think that ganon - yoshi is 55-45 in Yoshi's favour. Yoshi's slower speed makes neutral a bit easier for ganon(somewhat similar to ganon-peach with a lot more being about a spacing battle). Yoshi's CC, parries and double jump armor gives him the edge in neutral. Edgeguarding can be a bit annoying imo when the DJ armor is involved as well. Definately not a bad matchup for ganon however. His weight/fall speed makes him relatively easy to combo once in the air, combined with his medium-sized range. Ganon of course has great punishes and a good CC of his own to hold his own in neutral, which can be funny to watch when both of their platform waveland games are on point.

 

[Swagic]

I personally think that ganon - yoshi is 55-45 in Yoshi's favour. Yoshi's slower speed makes neutral a bit easier for ganon(somewhat similar to ganon-peach with a lot more being about a spacing battle). Yoshi's CC, parries and double jump armor gives him the edge in neutral. Edgeguarding can be a bit annoying imo when the DJ armor is involved as well. Definately not a bad matchup for ganon however. His weight/fall speed makes him relatively easy to combo once in the air, combined with his medium-sized range. Ganon of course has great punishes and a good CC of his own to hold his own in neutral, which can be funny to watch when both of their platform waveland games are on point.

My roommate was a Yoshi main. Learned that uair breaks the DJ armor at like 50%. That turned into a very easy matchup after that discovery.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yeah a lot of Ganon's moves just nullify Yoshi's DJ armor at really early percents.

 

[Swagic]

Fair breaks it at like 10%, dair at like 15. It's really not bad.

 

[spider_sense]

I wasn't using my friendlies with gahtzu as evidence for anything, I often talk about random matches I have. But I've played gravy a few times too. I don't think any Ganons really have their DI down in that matchup. When I slam away every time I'm hit, DI throws down and away, and use up and away DI on certain uair/knee combos, I don't fall victim to all these combos that so many people say are free/auto.

Never tried slamming the stick, because (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't that reset the DI input back to neutral, since the stick is at the dead zone of the horizontal pad? I usually just guide or roll the stick in the direction of where I'm trying to DI, even with ASDI or Smash DI. Never got back terrible results, but my DI (especially with his bs uair) could be alot better, so maybe I've been doing it wrong this whole time? **** like this is why I need 20xx. lmao

 

[tm]

That's the thing that's so wonky about the Falcon matchup, let alone particular play-styles. I always had better matches with Gravy and I've had some sick sets with N0ne when he was down in Miami. Playing those two gave me alot of knowledge on the match-up, but when I had to play Ghatzhu. He just ran away and dash dance where none of my moves would hit (if I jumped then I put myself at risk by getting uair) his nairs were spaced so well that I couldn't even CC and once he got he got the grabs on me it was wraps. lol Pretty much got sent to gotem central, but it always seems like Ganon struggles with fighting turtle/super defensive play-styles. You can't throw out moves arbitrarily without it getting whiffed punished. I talked to Colbol about it and he told me some of my bad habits, so I'm going to work on implementing it. I know I sound like a broken record, but I need to travel more. Wish I had 20xx so I could lab out frame perfect options like everyone else does.

check craigslist for a wii, go buy a cheap 2G USB drive, then the rest is just a matter of reading & modding

Never tried slamming the stick, because (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't that reset the DI input back to neutral, since the stick is at the dead zone of the horizontal pad? I usually just guide or roll the stick in the direction of where I'm trying to DI, even with ASDI or Smash DI. Never got back terrible results, but my DI (especially with his bs uair) could be alot better, so maybe I've been doing it wrong this whole time? **** like this is why I need 20xx. lmao

he means slamming it and keeping it there for the trajectory DI
here's how DI works http://smashboards.com/threads/a-gu...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/

 

[-ACE-]

Playing porkchops forced me to start slamming away. First because of fox waveshine (SDI in is often better), then it carried over to Falco combos and basically everything else. I do it vs Marth, falcon, any characters that combo Ganon hard.

Let me reiterate, this changes things significantly. They won't be able to follow up as well, it'll be noticeable. Nowadays your DI is sub optimal if you don't do this.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

How long you been lurking and not posting?

I haven't been here since...whenever you last saw me post. But i may pop in more often, because I'm going to start training and going to regionals/nationals again soon, and because ganon mains are still the coolest people, and i've neglected you guys for far too long.

Also, because I still think my vids when they exist are worth showing. Thing is my most recent tournament sets against peach and luigi seem to have ghosted from the twitch channel they were on, so i guess it'll have to wait until next time haha.

edit: only noticed kage saw the light through twitter, but it felt like a good time to pop in and reconnect, and half mourn the loss of future good ganon vids, and half look forward together to the future of melee with another smart player playing a viable character

double edit: with that being said, the current discussion on DI is hugely important. We should want to get better at getting true DI inputs, especially with QC stuff. it'll help immensely, especially with getting to edgecancel and get out uair off platforms. Also, I've wanted to start grinding ganon more since shield dropping became a thing (at least a thing i'm willing to attempt to take advantage of), because i think people will still disrespect our shields on platforms, but sd-uair and sd-bair are two really good ways of dealing with a lot of standard "disrespect this mid tier" play that people try.

 

[Linguini]

Been doing that type of di for ages. Falcon can still **** your **** if he follows up right sadly lol. Against falco it's really good tho

 

[-ACE-]

Lol. Well I haven't seen a single Ganon hit it consistently vs Falcon, SDI is pretty ****ing easy to notice. Just saying, the amount of auto combos is reduced significantly. Which is true.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Lol. Well I haven't seen a single Ganon hit it consistently vs Falcon, SDI is pretty ****ing easy to notice. Just saying, the amount of auto combos is reduced significantly. Which is true.

Playing as Ganon vs $mike enough times makes me realize just how true this is.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, both sides of the coin are real. Fighting local falcons like my GCS would become easier, but even so, ganon's weight doesn't allow him to truly get "out" if you're at reasonable percents. It's like SDIing during a waveshine. Sure, the fox will have to walk different distances, and you might be able to get jab out, but there comes a level where if they want to hit you again, they have the tools to do so.

forcing falco to follow up with laser instead of waveland utilt or dair is a godsend though.

 

[Divinokage]

LOL sheik is far from impossible. Even the best sheik in the MU can get touched to death with very little potential for defensive counterplay once you get a grab / read. Compare that to the fastfallers / puff, where you have to continue to make reads and pressure them well to get damage and edgeguards.

95% of ganon players (and probably 95% of non-ganon players too) just convinced themselves or let everyone else convince them that sheik just bodies ganon, no questions. You have to be a WAYYY better player than the opponent to win that MU. Wrong.

Your personal weaknesses are holding you back FAR more than your character limitations, ALL of us. It's impossible to prove, but I promise that at peak play, sheik isn't even ganons worst MU.

Lol im sorry but thats like discrediting years of experience with all the Ganons that tried the matchup. Did you try playing against m2k's sheik, plup, shroomed? Etc. Dont do this to yourself and have hope where there actually isnt any. If you want prove Ganon vs Sheik is 50-50 like i did in the past id advise you to stop right there. Though this matchup is very doable on Yoshis, i won a lot of matches there vs most sheiks, her cg stops at 50%. Maybe FoD seems like it would be a decent pick.

Anyways, i believe this is the way Ganon should be played in this meta. Keep him in your pocket and youll likely get even better results overall. Im going to prove it. I also agree with Linguini where winning bad matchups is satisfying but after going through this many times, the feeling of dread from a loss is terrible. Im sick of it.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I've always (since switching) described it as such: ganon has an answer for every situation. It's like playing rock paper scissors; if your wall is built well enough, you can even appear to have two options covered at very close to the same time. It's pretty cool. Problem is, at a certain level, you have to pick your option first, because the opponent can position themselves in a way that, due to ganons startup, he has to do something about the threat of an approach. If ganon doesn't pick his defensive option in this time frame, then they'll just get hit. Problem is, the opponent doesn't actually have to commit to any of these potential things. When people are attentive enough to bait your jab and punish with 40+% and an edgeguard situation, the game gets very very hard. You end up in a multitude of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios, and in todays meta, non-commitment is at an all time high -_-

Melee used to be about "you pick some option and i'll pick some option, and one of us will win because style" but now it's all heavy neutral and deciding who has more patience, and who can stand going to the 3rd 4th or 5th intention rather than swinging early. And ganon just isn't well suited for that, because he has to swing at too many false images and his cooldown is too much to deal with that fact.

Cool thing is, if you're just plain smarter than everyone else by a large margin, you can tell when someone is being noncomittal, and find ways to hit them for it, but it still means they were being noncomittal in a spot where they could get hit, which is silly of them.

This description of neutral came about when i was training with PP 3ish years ago when i was still in college. So often i simply couldn't tell where i went wrong, trying to play neutral to the best of my ability. Sure, kevin was a far far better player, and my intentions may have been easier to circumvent than they are now, but once you deal with a character/player with a good enough dash dance, you'll find yourself swinging at images that may or may not be real, and recognizing how damaging that can be.

edit: to some, this may seem a defeatist attitude, but to those who have played a while, I view this as fully respecting my opponent to not rely on their inattentiveness to win matches. There just feels to me, a certain amount of arrogance or bravado where you believe that your opponent will either be outsmarted at least twice as often by you, or that they will have a lapse of focus at least twice as often in many matchups. But with as much on the line as there is now...it's just not fun relying on those things, especially if you're attentive enough to have the proper reads but playing a character too slow to capitalize on them.

 

[Bwmat]

Lately I've been getting more and more pissed off at just that - people playing the dash dance game (+projectiles, if they have them) and waiting for me to swing, and punishing.

It's so brain dead and so effective and so, so frustrating

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's not nearly as braindead as it seems though; figuring out the range in which this functions takes experience and painstaking focus. it's largely what my fox is based from; if you're not close enough to make you want to swing, then you have no business swinging. I personally initially mained ganon because i had no idea who to fight ganon with other than himself, probably because of that fear of his reach, the aura around his hitbox, and just how hard he hits.

but yes, people are making less unnecessary commitments, because people can kill you for absolutely no reason nowadays. a missed waveland that turns into an airdodge can be a stock if you're fox fighting falco. When those same fox players bring that same focus and fear to fighting ganondorf, it just seems unfair.

 

[Divinokage]

I've always (since switching) described it as such: ganon has an answer for every situation. It's like playing rock paper scissors; if your wall is built well enough, you can even appear to have two options covered at very close to the same time. It's pretty cool. Problem is, at a certain level, you have to pick your option first, because the opponent can position themselves in a way that, due to ganons startup, he has to do something about the threat of an approach. If ganon doesn't pick his defensive option in this time frame, then they'll just get hit. Problem is, the opponent doesn't actually have to commit to any of these potential things. When people are attentive enough to bait your jab and punish with 40+% and an edgeguard situation, the game gets very very hard. You end up in a multitude of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios, and in todays meta, non-commitment is at an all time high -_-

Melee used to be about "you pick some option and i'll pick some option, and one of us will win because style" but now it's all heavy neutral and deciding who has more patience, and who can stand going to the 3rd 4th or 5th intention rather than swinging early. And ganon just isn't well suited for that, because he has to swing at too many false images and his cooldown is too much to deal with that fact.

Cool thing is, if you're just plain smarter than everyone else by a large margin, you can tell when someone is being noncomittal, and find ways to hit them for it, but it still means they were being noncomittal in a spot where they could get hit, which is silly of them.

This description of neutral came about when i was training with PP 3ish years ago when i was still in college. So often i simply couldn't tell where i went wrong, trying to play neutral to the best of my ability. Sure, kevin was a far far better player, and my intentions may have been easier to circumvent than they are now, but once you deal with a character/player with a good enough dash dance, you'll find yourself swinging at images that may or may not be real, and recognizing how damaging that can be.

The neutral is more like 75-25 in favor for Fox general when facing a really good one in the matchup. Im trying to understand where -ACE- comes from when he says there's room for improvement but at the same time we all definitely experimented on how to stuff certain approaches. I mean that it doesnt change that Ganon is huge, has slow moves and doesn't move that fast + its easy to read when he's going to commit. If Ganon plays the chasing game vs someone faster than him then he's going to lose 100% which is what good players do in this particular matchup. Nothing anyone does can change that, im not sure what's there to prove in this context.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well the optomistic side probably involves the raw mixup that they can become unsure of where to stand if the mixup between retreating short hop into either retreating fair or full waveland forward ftilt is fully utilized. I'm pretty sure that raw mixup is how i made a 3 stock comeback in one of my wins vs a soon to be ranked fox here in NC. They start trying to make their decisions from further away due to the ftilt, which then makes retreating fair a better counter. it comes from people not being able to pressure us as easily on side plats because they fear shield drop bair. it still comes from the feeling that everything fox has there is an answer to, as long as we can convince them to act on our time.

thing is, you and I understand that cornering an attentive fox just shouldn't happen.

edit: btw guys, i still don't really enjoy the fox ditto much, so occasionally i do this matchup more often than i should as a fox main ganon secondary. i'm not saying i know "exactly" what i'm talking about, but i've seen the true fear in some foxes eyes, and i also know what tends to scare me coming from the fox side.

 

[Bwmat]

it's not nearly as braindead as it seems though; figuring out the range in which this functions takes experience and painstaking focus. it's largely what my fox is based from; if you're not close enough to make you want to swing, then you have no business swinging. I personally initially mained ganon because i had no idea who to fight ganon with other than himself, probably because of that fear of his reach, the aura around his hitbox, and just how hard he hits.

but yes, people are making less unnecessary commitments, because people can kill you for absolutely no reason nowadays. a missed waveland that turns into an airdodge can be a stock if you're fox fighting falco. When those same fox players bring that same focus and fear to fighting ganondorf, it just seems unfair.

I don't dispute the skill of takes to pull this off(though it is depressingly effective even when applied by mediocre players) , I meant more in the sense that they don't really have to think at all, there's nothing I can really *beat* the strategy with, the only thing I can do I hope to catch them off guard with a stray aerial (no projectile to camp with) and they are watching for that, ready to punish.

I guess you can camp too, but it's not very effective without a projectile, and I find the better players are very patient and have no problems waiting it out.

 

[Bwmat]

well the optomistic side probably involves the raw mixup that they can become unsure of where to stand if the mixup between retreating short hop into either retreating fair or full waveland forward ftilt is fully utilized. I'm pretty sure that raw mixup is how i made a 3 stock comeback in one of my wins vs a soon to be ranked fox here in NC. They start trying to make their decisions from further away due to the ftilt, which then makes retreating fair a better counter.

Interesting...

I really need to get shffwl down consistently one of these days

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, cause double jumping will send off signals to the observant player; we're not the only people aware that the full waveland becomes easier off a double jump. Plus, retreating fair looks weird and unlikely out of the double jump, so where to stand becomes obvious. As ganon you have to find ways to make decisions as unclear and as late as possible, because as i said, our startup is such that people can damn near shield the raw startup of our moves on reaction. If it gets to the point where they can see the movement option that we like to align with a certain move, then our effective startup is that much worse, rendering the character useless.

 

[Renth]

http://youtu.be/nRsoLzZhSeU?list=PLh75RLJV2XsmzUMgAzR1wUXfYQo5mtnTV


This is the first time I've played in 4-5 months. Hope you enjoy
Don't judge too harshly

 

[Swagic]

Guys it's another 2012 reunion

 

[F. Stein]

Wow... logged in after a week and this is the most depressing two pages a young Ganon main can read lol. Guess it makes sense though I came to this conclusion a while ago. Time to practice more characters xD