Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[tm]

tm

Total:33
Hit: 6-16
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 22>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12

Is there not an opportunity to put the frame 16 hitbox at ledge and auto cancel (land the next frame)? It sucks I've never had any way to test ****.

If not, and he's literally always sweetspotting like you say, you've got him. Just stomp.

nah, you'd have to land on frame 17, and it won't AC until 22
yeah stomp is a decent idea. My only concerns are 1) mistiming it and dying, and 2) him adapting to seeing the startup of dair, and going high or through me instead

I'm honestly not too worried about the tech / meteor. In my experience, only spacies / falcon / ganon players are any good at teching. Plus if they meteor / tech, they're still super likely to go onstage. Plenty of people go for the meteor but are used to the timing for falcons stomp and do it too soon. If a pika techs a stomp AND sweetspots upB to ledge, then **** it he deserves to live lol. Once that happens I'll worry about it not working.

Both matchups honestly require a lot of patience and a lot of deceptive movement. Both Puff and Pika are looking for their opportunity to get in on you, so baiting them with your movement is what you're going to be doing most of the time. I get good Puff practice against probably one of the most defensive Puff mains you will ever play, and I still manage to take games off of him on PS and FD lol. Trust me, the more patient you are with those matchups the more rewarding it will feel when you finally beat them. You just can't ever get too antsy. The first player to get antsy is the one that loses.

As for Edgeguarding Pikachu, most of the time it's not even worth it to try to go for anything, as you are definitely right that you can be at risk of getting tail spiked to your death. Instead of thinking about always needing to edgeguard Pikachu, I think you need to think about it in a way where you're focusing on making it really hard for Pikachu to get back to center stage. Ganon still has really good stage control abilities with his giant hitboxes, and if you restrict Pikachu's movement options when he's cornered, this is a much safer and advantageous position for you to be in than to be on the edge and ledgehop upair. I think you should still stall the ledge to cut that option off from Pikachu, but more often than not you're just going to have to respect that Pikachu is gonna get back on stage and you really want to create some choke points and walls to prevent him from getting out of that position that's advantageous for you. Once Pikachu is back on stage there's not much he can do to get past you if you build a good enough wall or have good enough CC. Only if you're at like 80% should you be trying to retreat and treat your stock a bit more preciously. Seriously it's all about stage positioning. You have really good tools to get out of tight spots that Pikachu or Puff could put you in.

I see. Helpful thoughts
I do seem to have a problem with patience, even in experienced MUs unlike these. Maybe that's telling

Here's how I see it: reverse up air, if it works, is essentially not techable. Even in theory though, it'll work, sure, but pika's recovery is so busted that they'll just be able to recover again. It's not like with falcon / ganon / spacies etc where it's basically a free ledge hog.

Reverse up air is still ganon's best edge guard by far, but not vs pika.

If no tech / meteor cancel, stomp kills outright.
If tech / meteor, stomp only sets up for another edge guard BUT adds an additional 22% (if fresh). Pika has the option to NOT sweetspot to ledge.
On tech, pika turns around, can't punish for stomping.

Up air does 3% or so, and resets situation. Doesn't kill and gives pika the option to NOT snap to ledge.

Am I missing anything? Stomp seems like the clear best option in this matchup, but I'd love to hear other opinions. I've always been a big fan of the up air.

Bair may be the best option for edge guarding at higher % then, correct? Stomp at lower %, then bair? Bair would almost certainly give pika a free recovery if it doesn't outright kill though.

I like this analysis. So yeah, if I'm trying to HIT him out of sweetspot, stomp is much better for this MU. Bair can't reach unless ganons whole body is offstage though.

 

[-ACE-]

I just meant stomp if he's sweetspotting every time like you said

 

[Swagic]

Stomp covers sweetspot of his heels are at the ledge facing backwards.

 

[-ACE-]

Stomp covers sweetspot of his heels are at the ledge facing backwards.

Or if you edge cancel forwards going offstage

 

[ForTheLulz]

I was playing a fox, and my dair ended up trading with upsmash, and we got sent skyward

I killed him with bair off the top LMAO

 

[-ACE-]

TGL was pretty sick, my girl was my DD so I hit up the casino and the bar more than the venue, didn't enter. Margaritas and LIT's baby.

Good to see RockCrock!! That guy is still mad good in dittos. Got some friendlies, barely lost first one, was winning second then he had to play on stream. Got a set later before I left, beat him on game 1 ending with utilt then barely lost next one on DL and he 2 stocked me on yoshi's. I like his style with Ganon.

Some dope ass matches went down I need to watch and re-watch lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Ppl wanted me to rap battle mike haze, I wasn't hyped **** woulda been too ****ing easy LOL. But now that I see he won the tournament I woulda made him hold a big ass L

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Will stomp cover high though? Let's say he goes slightly above the ledge into your body.

e: keep in mind that pika's up-b moves too quickly for you to react to it at times

 

[LSDX]

true my b, it was a 3-1
lets do another one next time we see eachother
remember that it was a ganon ditto tho, didnt go falcon

the reason i stopped coming here is cuz there is no sense of unison between ganondorf players and everyone just thinks theyre better than the next guy

To be fair, I agree w/ your statement about unnecessary sh¡t talk, but through my years of playing I've found other Ganon players to find a sort of camaraderie among one another (speaking as a dual Ganon).

 

[HEADHNTR]

Eikelmann has advised me to come here and drink all the knowledge from the fountain.

I am resident Australian Ganon Main. Crikey!

lmao. Nah i remember coming in here ages ago and making a joke about wavelanding upside down.

What's good people?

 

[Mr.Cochise]

TGL was pretty sick, my girl was my DD so I hit up the casino and the bar more than the venue, didn't enter. Margaritas and LIT's baby.

Good to see RockCrock!! That guy is still mad good in dittos. Got some friendlies, barely lost first one, was winning second then he had to play on stream. Got a set later before I left, beat him on game 1 ending with utilt then barely lost next one on DL and he 2 stocked me on yoshi's. I like his style with Ganon.

Some dope *** matches went down I need to watch and re-watch lol.

Dude, Rockcrock vs MikeHaze made me feel dead on the inside. Rock tried so hard and it wasn't enough

 

[Swagic]

Will stomp cover high though? Let's say he goes slightly above the ledge into your body.

e: keep in mind that pika's up-b moves too quickly for you to react to it at times

As long as the hitbox is out, stomp will cover all the way up to a little over Ganon's head. Unlike Falcon's stomp, all of Ganon's hitboxes are out the whole time.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

As long as the hitbox is out, stomp will cover all the way up to a little over Ganon's head. Unlike Falcon's stomp, all of Ganon's hitboxes are out the whole time.

Right but what I'm saying is that even if it hits that high it might not actually kill, it might just spike pika onto stage.

 

[Swagic]

Right but what I'm saying is that even if it hits that high it might not actually kill, it might just spike pika onto stage.

Oooohhh gotcha. But that does start a techchase situation, with Pikachu's pretty bad tech roll distance.

 

[Diosama]

Gonna infiltrate the pika r&d group, maybe I'll find something

 

[F. Stein]

Yes.... just ask them all the things that give them nightmares about our matchup... and pray they don't respond with Utilt spam xD

 

[Renth]

I don't really exist, I am a shadow that appears on a wall time to time. As far as melee is concerned. I haven't played in 3-4 months and I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't really exist, I am a shadow that appears on a wall time to time. As far as melee is concerned. I haven't played in 3-4 months and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Kage bomb 2?

 

[Divinokage]

I just meant stomp if he's sweetspotting every time like you said

Why not just have tricky movement and grab the ledge? Way less obvious. lol

 

[-ACE-]

Why not just have tricky movement and grab the ledge? Way less obvious. lol

If you have time, sure. You can run toward ledge and stomp when you don't.

 

[-ACE-]

Oh btw I got called out by everyone (instigators) to rap battle mike haze in front of him. So I spit a few rhymes and he's like "WTF?!" Looks around at everyone "YO.... this guy is ****ing sick, **** that ****, I concede" LOL. He told me if we would've met in bracket he'd straight give me game 1 LMAO. Never played him tho. Mike is a good guy and hooked me up righteously at MLG two years ago when I didn't know the green scene. Got 9th out of 60 after like 8 tall boyz, losing to Elliot (double 1 stocked, 2 stitchface game 1 and one stitch game 2) and mesa's sheik. Despite me bringing games close Elliot is clearly a step ahead of me. Me vs mesa was recorded, I did noob **** and good **** at times, lol. tm maybe you can give me some neutral reminders. If I was consistent I could beat him, actually I think I could beat almost everyone. But consistency is the mark of a good player and I just don't have it (if I was sober I'd only be playing a little bit better imo.... Never entered without being wasted so I dunno). Good times.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

have some matches up. best stuff prolly came from me v mesa

 

[Diosama]

Infiltration only mildly successful. I pretended to be a pika main struggling against a local ganon LMAO

They described the matchup as being whiff punished based while being conscious of jab, preferring to trap us on the ground instead of risking to trade in the air. If we're coming down with jab after aerials, I think sh aerials into dj aerials being a good mixup. In the case they do decided to approach, it's obviously always a nair, but they aim to land behind us to render our CC useless. Perhaps the solution is not an offensive one, but a defensive one. We could wd forward turnaround jab, or just retreat and instant upair their next approach.

As far as the ledge goes, they said pika is generally safe from ganon's aerials, but that the real issue is at the end of the first branch of the quick attack. So the trick for us is not to intercept the 2nd part of it, but the first. I think our best bet to catch this is to really get out there and smack him. Once he's more cautious and would prefer to up b from afar, we could just grab ledge like kage said and lh upair, or better yet he lands on stage and we get an even better hit. The last few things they said about the ledge was to use their invincible options (grab, upsmash, upair, nair) as per usual. It can have dire consequences if we're too slow to grab the ledge, calculations of risk/reward and spacing will be necessary.

That's the best I could salvage, other stuff they said was like "just combo janon because he's fat"

They also said N64 kinda ****ed up turtle, rip LOL

 

[Renth]

Kage bomb 2?

Probably, the best Ganondorf video on YouTube

 

[-ACE-]

Probably, the best Ganondorf video on YouTube

https://youtu.be/a10YL2WK6ig

We're ****ing sick as that AIDS **** and other Ganons get played quick!

 

[-ACE-]

For those of you that don't know

Kage bomb = suicide Ganon dair

 

[-ACE-]

i saw a tweet where renth said after i beat hugs that ganondorf players make him want to vomit
so **** him

https://youtu.be/RogMWh_Kawc

Don't let him wL past you dawg

 

[Swagic]

Wait, I thought the Kage bomb was the shield poke dair

 

[-ACE-]

Wait, I thought the Kage bomb was the shield poke dair

Don't wait. That got called the "Kage special" after renth had been doing it for 2 years.

 

[tm]

Oh btw I got called out by everyone (instigators) to rap battle mike haze in front of him. So I spit a few rhymes and he's like "WTF?!" Looks around at everyone "YO.... this guy is ****ing sick, **** that ****, I concede" LOL. He told me if we would've met in bracket he'd straight give me game 1 LMAO. Never played him tho. Mike is a good guy and hooked me up righteously at MLG two years ago when I didn't know the green scene. Got 9th out of 60 after like 8 tall boyz, losing to Elliot (double 1 stocked, 2 stitchface game 1 and one stitch game 2) and mesa's sheik. Despite me bringing games close Elliot is clearly a step ahead of me. Me vs mesa was recorded, I did noob **** and good **** at times, lol. tm maybe you can give me some neutral reminders. If I was consistent I could beat him, actually I think I could beat almost everyone. But consistency is the mark of a good player and I just don't have it (if I was sober I'd only be playing a little bit better imo.... Never entered without being wasted so I dunno). Good times.

looool good ****. Yeah shoot me a link, I'll make a post out of it

Infiltration only mildly successful. I pretended to be a pika main struggling against a local ganon LMAO

They described the matchup as being whiff punished based while being conscious of jab, preferring to trap us on the ground instead of risking to trade in the air. If we're coming down with jab after aerials, I think sh aerials into dj aerials being a good mixup. In the case they do decided to approach, it's obviously always a nair, but they aim to land behind us to render our CC useless. Perhaps the solution is not an offensive one, but a defensive one. We could wd forward turnaround jab, or just retreat and instant upair their next approach.

As far as the ledge goes, they said pika is generally safe from ganon's aerials, but that the real issue is at the end of the first branch of the quick attack. So the trick for us is not to intercept the 2nd part of it, but the first. I think our best bet to catch this is to really get out there and smack him. Once he's more cautious and would prefer to up b from afar, we could just grab ledge like kage said and lh upair, or better yet he lands on stage and we get an even better hit. The last few things they said about the ledge was to use their invincible options (grab, upsmash, upair, nair) as per usual. It can have dire consequences if we're too slow to grab the ledge, calculations of risk/reward and spacing will be necessary.

That's the best I could salvage, other stuff they said was like "just combo janon because he's fat"

They also said N64 kinda ****ed up turtle, rip LOL

LOL amazing work dude. Seeing into the other perspective actually helps a lot.

 

[Coastward]

i got super sheiked today.

i dont know how to play neutral, tm teach me.

 

[-ACE-]

tm it'll be on YouTube in like 3-5 days, I'll link it then. But it's on twitch right before Tipman vs jagz. My mistakes are super obvious at most points, but you can help me point out where I over commit and other stuff I do wrong in neutral.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

https://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/70799266 at 50 mins mesa v myself . if you scroll through im sure youll find ace if it doesnt jump to his match initially

 

[PseudoTurtle]

They also said N64 kinda ****ed up turtle, rip LOL

Bro wtf? LOL yea N64 beat me. In a close set that ended up being 2-1. That set was in loser's bracket. Wanna know who sent N64 into loser's bracket?

Yours truly. 2-0.

LOL and you wanna know who sent ME into loser's? ****ing DART LOL a RANKED player LMAO.

****ing rat player pus$y @ss b!tches

 

[Swagic]

Pivot question. If I'm at center stage and land an ftilt that knocks the other character offstage, and I want to charge and get the bair edgeguard, to pivot, would I need to foxtrot right before the pivot? I keep ending up in my turnaround animation, which means I fair and miss.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

question for anyone ive ever heard mention the word "pivot" what does that mean to you in melee?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

pivot can either be from neutral i.e. you're facing left and you pivot to the right and jab, or you can do the "tipman" pivot (empty pivot) which is a dash to a smash turn (resets to neutral position quickly), or you can do a "true" pivot, which I can only do with fsmash and ftilts.

Only semi-consistent at best at the last one.

 

[-ACE-]

Smash turn out of dash

(Into standing ground move)

Swagic you'll be running so just wd forward into moonwalk or backjump (forward) with bair

 

[Thomas Tipman]

ok the response ive seen kinda helps me explain this better. i keep seeing people post and talk about pivoting and its nothing of what i think when i think pivot in melee. here is my best description of what the "pivot technique" actually is.

When you dash you can turn left or right to turn immediately as long as you dont turn it into a run animation. at frame 16 from the initial dash if you do not turn you will run and if you turn while running it will not be immediate but delayed. the ONLY definition of the "technique of pivoting" in melee is when you dash and turn, on the second frame your character is actually in the stand up neutral position and responds as such. On the third frame they would begin their dash again towards where ever you turned to. If you turn around when running you get a slower turn animation and most important is NO STANDING FRAME. That one frame is what makes this technique even possible. So in a nutshell you have a 1 frame window to input your jab/tilt/smash/taunt/downb+neutralb.

That is what pivoting in melee is as a technique. now if youre in a run animation you can press down and immediately input a jab/tilt/smash. thats run canceling. theyre both similar that they get you outta moving into a standing attack but pivoting can be done in the first 16 frames.

 

[Swagic]

ok the response ive seen kinda helps me explain this better. i keep seeing people post and talk about pivoting and its nothing of what i think when i think pivot in melee. here is my best description of what the "pivot technique" actually is.

When you dash you can turn left or right to turn immediately as long as you dont turn it into a run animation. at frame 16 from the initial dash if you do not turn you will run and if you turn while running it will not be immediate but delayed. the ONLY definition of the "technique of pivoting" in melee is when you dash and turn, on the second frame your character is actually in the stand up neutral position and responds as such. On the third frame they would begin their dash again towards where ever you turned to. If you turn around when running you get a slower turn animation and most important is NO STANDING FRAME. That one frame is what makes this technique even possible. So in a nutshell you have a 1 frame window to input your jab/tilt/smash/taunt/downb+neutralb.

That is what pivoting in melee is as a technique. now if youre in a run animation you can press down and immediately input a jab/tilt/smash. thats run canceling. theyre both similar that they get you outta moving into a standing attack but pivoting can be done in the first 16 frames.

So basically for a true pivot, yes, you do need to foxtrot