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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
The only requirement is to actually combo all 5 aerials. The counter needs to say 5 hits. The cpu in training mode has no DI actually.Divinokage yeah man that seems impossible without your opponent having TAS SDI. Does it have to be on FD? Lol
Bizzarro Flame I don't know if you saw this when reading the old posts or not, but I made a little video about grab punishes on fox/falco/falcon, highlighting the "uthrow trap" on platform stages that basically guarantees your opponent offstage. I just winged it and the vid got cut short but it gets the point across. Something to mess with.
https://youtu.be/-rlsmHbh6mE
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Yeah that's right. CPU in "stand" anyway. IIRC "evade" gives them away DI in most situations and "attack" makes them DI in more. The reason I ask about the stage is the first thing that comes to mind is the tree on PS lol.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I still cant see a successful 5 hits on PS but it could be worth a try.
Swagic
i did it by facing the opponent with the uair and it hit the weak part of it on the floor which forced the get up, its really funny.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I wish there was a way to fair them against the tree at some low percent, untechable stomp, uair then them against tree, nair to bair. ****s not possible lol
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
After more than a month of mining, I've gone through this entire thread and collected all of the golden nuggets I could find. Of course there were probably things I missed, as I had to skim most of the time.
I'll be making the official thread here and sticky it this afternoon/evening.
I'll be making the official thread here and sticky it this afternoon/evening.
Bizzarro Flame
Smash Lord
this is gold! i'm going to have to rewatch this again and take notes.
https://youtu.be/-rlsmHbh6mE
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Thanks bro. Here are some ok examples I posted a few months back
http://youtu.be/zx76cahyNxY?t=7m05s
^^ this was all reaction, option select.
http://youtu.be/zx76cahyNxY?t=17m58s
^^ also option select via cg, then mid-air uair on reaction for his plat tech roll IN. Had he rolled away, ff dj uair to cover it.
http://youtu.be/zx76cahyNxY?t=19m40s
^^ prime example of uthrow trap and the coverage of plat techroll away
To cover all options the level of focus you have to have is pretty nuts, but you definitely can react to them all. It's pushing the limits of reaction time in some situations.
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Bizzarro Flame
Smash Lord
I really liked the third example. Arguably, one could have SH up-air into double up-air to cover all tech options on the right platform. Will have to test this.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
True, the example is flawed tho since he actually missed the tech, but this scenario happens a lot when they aren't familiar with percents and don't know when they'll land on the platform. Works like a CHARM on BF/YS though when they tech. Just a bit situational on DL. There are cases where the initial sh uair will limit your ability to uair the tech away from waiting for the first uair to end (you won't hit them in time). And it's possible to hold back and instant dj uair if they tech in place or techroll in, which is one of the things that are demanding reaction-wise. Very possible though, I promise.
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ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
Can you link us the challenge?
Renth
Smash Hero
You called?
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Guys this might be the best day of my life. Renth, Bizz, Kage, Linguini, Tipman all back on the boards...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I saw it on Twitter on the Practical_TAS account.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Internet is down and won't be back up till tomorrow morning around 11am at the earliest. Won't be able to make the golden nuggets thread until then. Sorry for the delay.
Bizzarro Flame
Smash Lord
What is Ganondorf boards without Locke Robster?
Diosama
Stand User
A mess
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
He's got this **** on locke.
ZiggaWaTT
Smash Journeyman
So I have been playing melee a lot for the first time in years and im not sure if you guys are aware, but Ganon is pretty damn dope
Went to a weekly today and got to play a lot of space animals and sheiks that are at my level. I finally have the chaingrab for shiek down, i'm consistently doing 0-90. Finishing it is kinda iffy though when they DI full behind me. Can I actually hit that with a Bair? Because I seem to be coming up short when I go for it.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Bair reaches hella far, maybe you arent fast enough? Sheik can't really go too far behind.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
You shouldn't have to do this for sheik, but using jump twice reaches farther. Jump and then instantly dj bair. Worth a try. In a lot of matchups, notably Ganon dittos and Marth, when they're at like 130 bair won't reach full behind, gotta pivot dashjump fair.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Coastward
Smash Lord
last call for combo video clips, gonna start editing tomorrow.
i think the video is gonna be like 10 minutes long so send music recommendations as well LOL
i think the video is gonna be like 10 minutes long so send music recommendations as well LOL
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
**** versus gaming center. I'm never on stream. Let me see if I can get something recorded Sunday
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RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I have like two more clips I could edit for you real quick.
yes, absolutely. Not even one of the harder follow ups imo.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Still doing the spacies chaingrab work. It looks really ****ty for falco. Not gonna lie. People that do the chaingrab are most likely predicting it for the most part. I kind of don't even want to finish the research at this point because I'm 90% sure it's not humanly possible on reaction at most percents. But I think I will just to prove once and for all that it's a waste of time to practice. Although the KO setup percents will be useful I guess.
Anyway, I want to finish this **** soon so I can move on and start looking at the following:
-Moves and percents where Ganon can amsah tech
-Optimal DI/SDI in general. Would really like to look at this in ****ty matchups like Sheik and Falcon
-CC %s on getup attacks (ledge and knockdown)
-Punishes on getup attacks from CC
-Platform tech chasing involving shai drop uair, or just combos in general. Things like this
Anyway, I want to finish this **** soon so I can move on and start looking at the following:
-Moves and percents where Ganon can amsah tech
-Optimal DI/SDI in general. Would really like to look at this in ****ty matchups like Sheik and Falcon
-CC %s on getup attacks (ledge and knockdown)
-Punishes on getup attacks from CC
-Platform tech chasing involving shai drop uair, or just combos in general. Things like this
I definitely think it's worth for 60+%. I haven't even practiced it that much tbh and I've had many kills in tournament from it
all that other stuff sounds great
Vids from today (got 4th of 64 people behind KJH, Colbol, Anther)
vs Heartstrings (Sheik) W8s
vs KJH (Fox) WSF
vs Tran (Fox) LQF
vs Anther (Pikachu) LSF
if anyone has any tips for Pikachu, I'd love it. I feel like the MU is very very hard for the following reasons:
pika wins neutral very hard with his dash dance and being so short that jab / grab / straight ftilt will just whiff, which eliminate most of ganon's decent normals.
pika has strong punish on ganon with easy grab / usmash / uair combos, bthrow near ledge -> free kill, and really easy edgeguarding.
ganon, outside of the chaingrab, has very weak punishes on pikachu, and edgeguarding requires a read the vast majority of the time (and even with 1 read the edgeguard might not be doable). 2 hit combos are about as high as it goes, and pika can safely DI offstage and upB to ledge quickly if he is not at risk of dying outright.
Ganon can't pressure pika offstage (super high risk, low reward) or near ledge, but pika can get quick uair reversals for an easy kill. He also has many mixups on shield (uair, dsmash, dash dance, grab) which can all be very rewarding and largely don't have a good counter because shield grab is too high.
Please convince me otherwise
EDIT:
Disclaimer: by no means do I think that I should have beaten Anther, or that I'm better than him, but stuff like this is just not ok
https://gfycat.com/PoliteFearlessCats
https://gfycat.com/SoreSoreGrison
https://gfycat.com/PessimisticHorribleHoneybadger
https://gfycat.com/NearFastBeetle
https://gfycat.com/FabulousUniformBasil
https://gfycat.com/TestyGargantuanAsianlion
vs Heartstrings (Sheik) W8s
vs KJH (Fox) WSF
vs Tran (Fox) LQF
vs Anther (Pikachu) LSF
if anyone has any tips for Pikachu, I'd love it. I feel like the MU is very very hard for the following reasons:
pika wins neutral very hard with his dash dance and being so short that jab / grab / straight ftilt will just whiff, which eliminate most of ganon's decent normals.
pika has strong punish on ganon with easy grab / usmash / uair combos, bthrow near ledge -> free kill, and really easy edgeguarding.
ganon, outside of the chaingrab, has very weak punishes on pikachu, and edgeguarding requires a read the vast majority of the time (and even with 1 read the edgeguard might not be doable). 2 hit combos are about as high as it goes, and pika can safely DI offstage and upB to ledge quickly if he is not at risk of dying outright.
Ganon can't pressure pika offstage (super high risk, low reward) or near ledge, but pika can get quick uair reversals for an easy kill. He also has many mixups on shield (uair, dsmash, dash dance, grab) which can all be very rewarding and largely don't have a good counter because shield grab is too high.
Please convince me otherwise
EDIT:
Disclaimer: by no means do I think that I should have beaten Anther, or that I'm better than him, but stuff like this is just not ok
https://gfycat.com/PoliteFearlessCats
https://gfycat.com/SoreSoreGrison
https://gfycat.com/PessimisticHorribleHoneybadger
https://gfycat.com/NearFastBeetle
https://gfycat.com/FabulousUniformBasil
https://gfycat.com/TestyGargantuanAsianlion
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Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
maybe i can get some clips sunday with ace aswell.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
It is definitely possible to get kills from it and long strings off it on people that you either have a read on or don't mix up their DI enough. But based on what is possible for a human to react to given 4+ options, some of the reaction times needed are simply not possible for a human. Unless any of you guys are about to start breaking reaction time world records, I just don't see it becoming a reliable reaction-based punish.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Lmao at those gifys.
I have a winning record on the best pika in my region. But last time we played I lost. Still, we go back in forth when we've played friendlies so I know I can at least hold my own in the MU.
Get into the habit of ftilt down and dtilt against Pika. The base of the hitbox will still hit him in the air if he's close to you.
Use jab as an anti-air rather than ground pressure. But sometimes bull**** like that gify you posted happens lol.
I'd actually use stomp a good amount if he's staying on the ground too much. Once you hit it, it'll make them more likely to go in the air more, which then opens up jab again.
Yeah punishes are ass, but Pika's aren't that much better. His uair strings might kill if you aren't careful (ok that's bad I guess) but they don't do too much damage. It just feels worse because it's a lot of hits.
Can't really punish pika offstage super directly. But lh uair regrab or just lh uair can cover some options if he's always going to the ledge or low. Aside from that, you just have to read it. But if you get a hit, you do have a good chance of converting to a kill depending on the percent. Given how big Ganon's hitboxes are, you actually have an easier time edgeguarding in this matchup than most characters imo. Still hard though.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I've got a pocket Pikachu now (because why not) and I can say Pika is scared of Ganon. Light character + big hits= bad day for Pika. A lot of the game will be Pikachu running in and out trying to rack up a little but of damage at a time until he gets you into a position to start stringing things together or land an usmash. Don't worry about only being able to get one or two hits as punishes, that 15-20% on Pikachu is a lot more dangerous than 15-20% on Fox.
To cover that recovery, between quick attacks, his hurtbox has this CRAZY distortion that elongates it vertically then horizontally. If you can, put a hitbox vaguely near that area. It's also important to remember it's NOT a teleport. You can hit him the whole time, he's just moving crazy fast. Take the first stock to see if they sweetspot. If they do, put a bair or dair in front of the ledge right as they get to it. If they don't, don't worry about covering it, because they probably won't even try it in tournament if they can't do it yet.
To cover that recovery, between quick attacks, his hurtbox has this CRAZY distortion that elongates it vertically then horizontally. If you can, put a hitbox vaguely near that area. It's also important to remember it's NOT a teleport. You can hit him the whole time, he's just moving crazy fast. Take the first stock to see if they sweetspot. If they do, put a bair or dair in front of the ledge right as they get to it. If they don't, don't worry about covering it, because they probably won't even try it in tournament if they can't do it yet.
Mr.Cochise
Smash Cadet
Ok I can actually contribute to this pika discussion. My training partner has had a pika secondary since pika was considered low tier. Edgeguarding pika can be annoying but actually isn't bad as ganon compared to other characters. While I'm not good at discussing the specifics I can give this general piece of knowledge.
https://i.imgur.com/pktM6.gif
Here is a gif of the up-b hitbox etc. as Swagic mentioned when pika up-Bs he elongates his hurtbox pretty significantly. My partner showed me that when he does the horizontal part of the up-B his hurtbox becomes the length of one of the platforms on the neutral part of PS to the second platform. (Seriously check that **** out in-game.) You can also notice that there is some slight delay before he does each part of his up-b. I've had decent success using reverse uair or just using bair to hit pika during the up-b.I hope this helps.
https://i.imgur.com/pktM6.gif
Here is a gif of the up-b hitbox etc. as Swagic mentioned when pika up-Bs he elongates his hurtbox pretty significantly. My partner showed me that when he does the horizontal part of the up-B his hurtbox becomes the length of one of the platforms on the neutral part of PS to the second platform. (Seriously check that **** out in-game.) You can also notice that there is some slight delay before he does each part of his up-b. I've had decent success using reverse uair or just using bair to hit pika during the up-b.I hope this helps.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I like big stages vs pika so I can space against her nair approach with aerials, low ftilt, and shieldgrab it. Edgeguarding usually requires a read, but fastfalling the uair spike helps.
Coastward
Smash Lord
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Now that you mention the CCing of getup attacks and ledge attacks, I know I remember looking at it on my own but it seems I never actually posted what I found to the boards. Ah well. If you do that information and post it that'd be pretty great.
You had that first game until when you did a ledge-dash jab and then just rolled out of habit after the jab whiffed. You can't really roll vs Pikachu because of how fast he is.
Basically the Pikachu matchup needs to be treated like a cross between Puff and Fox. You're really just trying to make it hard for Pikachu to get in on you, as his nair approach his really his only good approach move, and you can ASDI down the strong hit of nair until about 40%. The weak hit of nair you can ASDI down until around 80%, so that means CC is really effective, especially if you do it on reaction in this matchup. I can definitely see CC dtilt being really good in this matchup because Pikachu is light enough to where you're really likely to combo him after a dtilt lands. Also keep in mind that dash attack actually hits a crouching Pikachu, and so will also hit a dashing Pikachu. An auto-canceled FF bair will barely connect with a Pikachu if you get the lowest hitbox of the bair and have it still AC, thankfully. Wavedash towards and down angle ftilt is also your friend in this matchup. You're really not gonna use jab as much as you think you will in the matchup.
It's kind of like the Puff matchup because you really only need to focus on getting a few good hits in neutral and building a good wall while also having good stage control. Much like Puff, Pikachu is pretty light and will die to a lot of hits from Ganon at earlier percents. Also much like Puff, you can't really go directly off stage to challenge Pikachu unless you're going for the hard punish on his slongated up-b hitbox, but any skilled Pikachu will up-b in a way to avoid that. As Grim has said, ledge hop upair will be your friend in this matchup when edgeguarding. I'd just grab the ledge and refresh and time the ledgehop upair as it can hit Pikachu when he up-b just above you and it can hit him when he's trying to sneak in a sweetspot.
This matchup is also kind of like the Fox matchup because Pikachu is just very fast on the ground. And while Pikachu's upair isn't as damaging as Fox's, their functions are rather similar in that they can both keep upairing you and eventually put you off stage to take a stock. You gotta DI that upair down and away to get out. Unlike Fox, Pikachu doesn't have a shine, so typically when Pikachu lands and you've CCed his move, you're usually able to either get out of the way or immediately counter attack .You have to be wary of Pika's dsmash though cause that's another good tool that Pika's will tend to use to pop opponents into the air. Really the only similarity that Pikachu has with Fox is his dash dance, movement, and nair approach. You want to treat neutral against Pikachu more like how you would vs a Fox, but you want to think about getting hits against Pikachu like you were hitting a Puff.
actually it was just a wavedash not a crouch lol. And even despite the airdodge, the dash grab would have hit him if his landing wasn't so short...
this **** actually happens so much it's ridiculous
I try to treat it like fox except without jab, grab, straight ftilt, techchases, and edgeguarding.... yeah that sounds doable right?
also I'm pretty sure if you whiff the uair spike on his recovery and he gets ledge, he gets a free reverse uair (which should be death at almost any %). I think you have to mixup taking ledge and rolling with ledgedashing -> aerial / grab (but you need to grab at a very specific timing or it will just whiff)
yeah the upB elongated hitbox is bad for him, but he can react to your positioning, and delay his upB at several different positions (without forfeiting sweetspot / onstage). I'm pretty sure you have to be OFF stage completely in order to actually cover the downwand sweetspot, with the exception of tipman & stomp which require you to read the timing of his upB exactly and execute very precisely (1 frame for tipman). Again, I'm fairly confident that if you mess this up he gets a free reverse uair which means edgeguard on you.