Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

great discussions guys. keep up the great work. glad to see so many faces here.

 

[-ACE-]

tm AC uair spike

 

[tm]

-ACE- wut

 

[Swagic]

AC or just give him ledge. The next hit will knock him back offstage anyways (NOTE: ONLY IF YOU'RE WINNING BY AT LEAST ONE STOCK)

 

[tm]

AC uair doesn't cover ledge?

I don't like the gameplan "just reset and win neutral again until they die". Just like vs puff, when neutral is so heavily in the opponent's favor it's just not a winning strategy

EDIT:
sorry for being a negative nancy on this topic. I have yet to see how ganon stands a chance against a puff or pika that play the MU properly. I can at least pressure / punish the rest of the cast, and sometimes win neutral lol.

 

[Coastward]

i remember axe telling me some **** about the way pikachu's up-b works where there's a certain spot where pikachu can always be hit but it's slipping my mind, so maybe ask him about it.

 

[-ACE-]

-ACE- wut

If you AC you should be able to get away from ledgehop uair.

 

[Divinokage]

i remember axe telling me some **** about the way pikachu's up-b works where there's a certain spot where pikachu can always be hit but it's slipping my mind, so maybe ask him about it.

It's somewhere after the Up-B start up or when he lands on stage. His hurtbox is extended like crazy during his Up-B.

 

[Swagic]

I remember checking the Pika boards for help with my sweetspotting and seeing something about "having to come from the top." Not sure how true that is.

Also, went to a weekly, got 4-stocked by a Falco and then lost to a Marth last hit last stock. Against the Marth especially it became really clear to me that I have literally no idea what I'm doing in neutral. I kept getting punished for unsafe approaches because I was playing impatiently because I have ZERO clue what neutral is supposed to be like.

 

[ForTheLulz]

holy **** shiz is outta jail

 

[Bwmat]

I agree with tm, Pikachu is a hard matchup. I *hate* playing ganon against the characters which can avoid his grab/jab by being tiny.

This guy I play with often started playing Kirby (from falcon) and is annoying as hell, all he does is crouch and then counterattack.

 

[-ACE-]

Against the Marth especially it became really clear to me that I have literally no idea what I'm doing in neutral. I kept getting punished for unsafe approaches because I was playing impatiently because I have ZERO clue what neutral is supposed to be like.

Bair, side-b, intelligent shielding, intelligent ASDI/CC's. Maintain control of center stage. Beat his approaches with bair, but slam backwards at the moment of impact in case you lose the exchange. You can retreating fair too but if you guess wrong you forfeit valuable space. But SDI is super important. Pay attention to his approaches. If he spams an early sh fair that is a FREE SIDE-B so be ready for that, this wins matches, trust me. When you shield a fair, hold down and in to get closer to him. You have to be ready to uair oos if he does an early sh fair, and shieldgrab if he does a late one. The uair can put him on platforms where you can pressure, and it can make him scared to approach. You can cc stuff too into jab and dtilt. Pseudoturtle gets mileage by simply running up and crouching lol, it's good. Occasionally you can bait an approach in neutral with a quick dd, where you can wd back, react with an aerial, sometimes even grab him. Don't let him bully you. Bair his sword, shield when you have to.

 

[-ACE-]

Also never forget, empty sh waveland IS SO GOOD IN ALMOST ANY MATCHUP. Nowadays people just have it engrained into their heads to wait for Ganon to do an aerial and punish, so you get a lot of free openings this way.

 

[Swagic]

Maybe I should rephrase that. I understand the theory of how to do it, but the second I'm in an actual match, I can't do ANY of it. I got plenty of side-bs on the Marth, and CC dtilt into fairs (yay bad DI) and I was surviving over 150% every stock on Dreamland (my cp), but whenever we would reset to neutral, all I did was rush in, get punished, and counter his bad decisions.

 

[-ACE-]

Swagic unfortunately marth sets the pace of the match. Just constantly adapt to him and take every opening he gives you.... Not just to approach or counter an approach, but to acquire space too.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Ganon Main Goes for Ultimate Disrespect By Putting His Fingers In His Opponent's Mouth

 

[Mr.Cochise]

holy **** shiz is outta jail

Yeah I noticed hes constantly streaming netplay.

 

[Mr.Cochise]

i remember axe telling me some **** about the way pikachu's up-b works where there's a certain spot where pikachu can always be hit but it's slipping my mind, so maybe ask him about it.

I posted the gif of pika up b and poorly illustrated the demonstrable size of his hurtbox during the Up-B on the last page.

 

[tm]

If you AC you should be able to get away from ledgehop uair.

If you AC you aren't covering him going to ledge though. I'm talking about playing a pika who will not mess up their sweetspot upB to ledge. If you cover sweetspot with the uair, then you can't AC it. If you aren't covering sweetspot then it's not much different then AC bair which already doesn't work lol

 

[-ACE-]

tm

Total:33
Hit: 6-16
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 22>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12

Is there not an opportunity to put the frame 16 hitbox at ledge and auto cancel (land the next frame)? It sucks I've never had any way to test ****.

If not, and he's literally always sweetspotting like you say, you've got him. Just stomp.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon Main Goes for Ultimate Disrespect By Putting His Fingers In His Opponent's Mouth

WTF. If someone I don't know ever did that to me I'd have to control myself from knocking some teeth out and picking them up on my way out the door.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

**** pika tm those gfys were some bull**** lmao. I can't beat that dumbass instant up air oos either

 

[X WaNtEd X]

tm

Total:33
Hit: 6-16
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 22>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12

Is there not an opportunity to put the frame 16 hitbox at ledge and auto cancel (land the next frame)? It sucks I've never had any way to test ****.

If not, and he's literally always sweetspotting like you say, you've got him. Just stomp.

I really don't see the ac working, but that's just my intuition. Could totally be wrong.

Stomp maybe. You'd have to surprise them with it. Maybe stomp edgecancel grab ledge or fall with uair or something to cover their meteor cancel. Sounds kind of ridiculous but ya never know.

Lh uair should sometimes work. I've done it before, so I know it's possible. Not sure how many sweet spot angles it will cover, though. But the problem is grabbing the ledge will tip pika off to you trying to cover it. But maybe you could mix up wavedash ff ledge with dj uair to cover high angles.

Or maybe put a fh hitbox out to bait a low angle and then land with uair.

No matter what you do, you have to mindgame the edgeguard

 

[-ACE-]

tm I hear you. I've played axe before. But there's no maybe with stomp. It kills every sweetspot.

 

[-ACE-]

X WaNtEd X stomp kills any sweetspot

 

[X WaNtEd X]

X WaNtEd X stomp kills any sweetspot

Yes but the reason why I'm a little skeptical is because it's slow and meteorcancel is a thing. It's not like luigi where the options are really limited after meteorcancel.

 

[-ACE-]

Yes but the reason why I'm a little skeptical is because it's slow and meteorcancel is a thing. It's not like luigi where the options are really limited after meteorcancel.

They have to mc on frame 7 to be perfect. At high% they're dead. And with pika you know what's coming, you can bair, they won't be sweetspotting again.

Honestly stomp is underused as an edgeguard.

 

[-ACE-]

You can moonwalk or wL analog jump into stomp and edge cancel too, then dj uair on stage (tipman). Underused.

 

[Waldoring]

tm
Is there not an opportunity to put the frame 16 hitbox at ledge and auto cancel (land the next frame)? It sucks I've never had any way to test ****.

If not, and he's literally always sweetspotting like you say, you've got him. Just stomp.

To get the frame 16 hitbox to come out at ledge height and still autocancel requires you to somehow not land for 6 frames after getting that hitbox out; it can't be done. However, edge cancel uair ->uair/grab ledge is really good. At low % you can even get edge cancel uair -> stomp.

 

[-ACE-]

To get the frame 16 hitbox to come out at ledge height and still autocancel requires you to somehow not land for 6 frames after getting that hitbox out; it can't be done. However, edge cancel uair ->uair/grab ledge is really good. At low % you can even get edge cancel uair -> stomp.

Ok, I didn't know that. Edgeguarding pika definitely requires a read, which is known. If you cover sweetspot, you cover sweetspot. Sure if you miss, you can get punished, but that goes for anything with Ganon.

 

[tauKhan]

They have to mc on frame 7 to be perfect. At high% they're dead. And with pika you know what's coming, you can bair, they won't be sweetspotting again.

Honestly stomp is underused as an edgeguard.

In my experience, stomp against sweetspot is usually free DI in -> ledge/wall tech though, which works even at high%. Pikachu might be able to ledge tech uair you for stomping.

 

[-ACE-]

In my experience, stomp against sweetspot is usually free DI in -> ledge/wall tech though, which works even at high%. Pikachu might be able to ledge tech uair you for stomping.

Until that starts happening, stomp away. Technically you can tech every Tipman spike, is it still viable? Yes x100.

What pikachu is doing this to you?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I don't like the gameplan "just reset and win neutral again until they die". Just like vs puff, when neutral is so heavily in the opponent's favor it's just not a winning strategy

EDIT:
sorry for being a negative nancy on this topic. I have yet to see how ganon stands a chance against a puff or pika that play the MU properly. I can at least pressure / punish the rest of the cast, and sometimes win neutral lol.

Both matchups honestly require a lot of patience and a lot of deceptive movement. Both Puff and Pika are looking for their opportunity to get in on you, so baiting them with your movement is what you're going to be doing most of the time. I get good Puff practice against probably one of the most defensive Puff mains you will ever play, and I still manage to take games off of him on PS and FD lol. Trust me, the more patient you are with those matchups the more rewarding it will feel when you finally beat them. You just can't ever get too antsy. The first player to get antsy is the one that loses.

As for Edgeguarding Pikachu, most of the time it's not even worth it to try to go for anything, as you are definitely right that you can be at risk of getting tail spiked to your death. Instead of thinking about always needing to edgeguard Pikachu, I think you need to think about it in a way where you're focusing on making it really hard for Pikachu to get back to center stage. Ganon still has really good stage control abilities with his giant hitboxes, and if you restrict Pikachu's movement options when he's cornered, this is a much safer and advantageous position for you to be in than to be on the edge and ledgehop upair. I think you should still stall the ledge to cut that option off from Pikachu, but more often than not you're just going to have to respect that Pikachu is gonna get back on stage and you really want to create some choke points and walls to prevent him from getting out of that position that's advantageous for you. Once Pikachu is back on stage there's not much he can do to get past you if you build a good enough wall or have good enough CC. Only if you're at like 80% should you be trying to retreat and treat your stock a bit more preciously. Seriously it's all about stage positioning. You have really good tools to get out of tight spots that Pikachu or Puff could put you in.

 

[tauKhan]

Until that starts happening, stomp away. Technically you can tech every Tipman spike, is it still viable? Yes x100.

Teching Tipman is a very different task from teching stomp. Tipman sends straight away, and has to be SDI teched. And often Tipman is just below tumble threshold, and impossible to tech to begin with.

Meanwhile stomp sends straight down, so if you do even slight di in, you'll hit wall/ledge on most stages. Teching stomps is super free. Except on BF it's probably good.

Though of course if your opponent doesn't tech stomps, then you might as well abuse that.

What pikachu is doing this to you?

European pikachu?

Anyway tested the uair, it's not scary, does like 3% and sends straight up. Forgot to consider the tech turns pikachu to face away lol. Ledge tech still gets free upb back to ledge / stage.

 

[-ACE-]

Top players miss the tech/mc all the time. It's not like I'm saying just stomp every time, you have to cover sweetspot. And if using uair can get you ledgehop uair'd, and you know he's going to sweetspot, stomp is a great option. Trust me, I've played many top players that tech/mc stomp, it's still good. IRL trumps theory.

 

[tauKhan]

I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I speak of only my own experience. I always option select tech when I go for sweetspot, so I basically never miss tech vs meteors and assumed players that are way better than me wouldn't either. I guess not everyone does that then.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

They have to mc on frame 7 to be perfect. At high% they're dead. And with pika you know what's coming, you can bair, they won't be sweetspotting again.

Honestly stomp is underused as an edgeguard.

At high percents that sounds really good if you can get it off in time. But again, it's such a fast recovery, so it might be harder to land.

The other thing is that even if Pika doesn't sweet spot, there's still a very small window where you can hit him. So I'm concerned that it might be hard to get the bair out in time at certain percents to hit the missed sweet spot. And even if you can, I imagine the timing might be tricky.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Here's how I see it: reverse up air, if it works, is essentially not techable. Even in theory though, it'll work, sure, but pika's recovery is so busted that they'll just be able to recover again. It's not like with falcon / ganon / spacies etc where it's basically a free ledge hog.

Reverse up air is still ganon's best edge guard by far, but not vs pika.

If no tech / meteor cancel, stomp kills outright.
If tech / meteor, stomp only sets up for another edge guard BUT adds an additional 22% (if fresh). Pika has the option to NOT sweetspot to ledge.
On tech, pika turns around, can't punish for stomping.

Up air does 3% or so, and resets situation. Doesn't kill and gives pika the option to NOT snap to ledge.

Am I missing anything? Stomp seems like the clear best option in this matchup, but I'd love to hear other opinions. I've always been a big fan of the up air.

Bair may be the best option for edge guarding at higher % then, correct? Stomp at lower %, then bair? Bair would almost certainly give pika a free recovery if it doesn't outright kill though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

AC uair doesn't cover ledge?

I don't like the gameplan "just reset and win neutral again until they die". Just like vs puff, when neutral is so heavily in the opponent's favor it's just not a winning strategy

EDIT:
sorry for being a negative nancy on this topic. I have yet to see how ganon stands a chance against a puff or pika that play the MU properly. I can at least pressure / punish the rest of the cast, and sometimes win neutral lol.

I agree. Which is why I think the best way to play those matchups is to focus more on your defense. Basically try to make sure they get very little off their openings. That way you can force them to have to use the same strategy you are. If they have to win neutral 5x as much as you do to get the same damage, for example, you will win even if you don't very much off your openings.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Here's how I see it: reverse up air, if it works, is essentially not techable. Even in theory though, it'll work, sure, but pika's recovery is so busted that they'll just be able to recover again. It's not like with falcon / ganon / spacies etc where it's basically a free ledge hog.

Reverse up air is still ganon's best edge guard by far, but not vs pika.

If no tech / meteor cancel, stomp kills outright.
If tech / meteor, stomp only sets up for another edge guard BUT adds an additional 22% (if fresh). Pika has the option to NOT sweetspot to ledge.
On tech, pika turns around, can't punish for stomping.

Up air does 3% or so, and resets situation. Doesn't kill and gives pika the option to NOT snap to ledge.

Am I missing anything? Stomp seems like the clear best option in this matchup, but I'd love to hear other opinions. I've always been a big fan of the up air.

Bair may be the best option for edge guarding at higher % then, correct? Stomp at lower %, then bair? Bair would almost certainly give pika a free recovery if it doesn't outright kill though.

I'm thinking kind of a hybrid of the uair and dair strat. The uair is easier to hit, but as you say they might get back and you've only added 3%. BUT it might put pika in an easier position to hit the dair or bair.