Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Thomas Tipman]

ive honestly found myself using nair a lot more for shield pressure and general spacing. its shield pressure is sick but you have to know how to auto cancel it for it to be safe. also if you full jump then nair ASAP onto platforms on shielded opponents. auto cancels. Nair/uair/bair are necessary tools for a strong shffl game. think of them as tomahawks for spacing except your opponent see's it as aggro spacing. nair on shield is bad ass though.

 

[Diosama]

I remember Locke saying something about shield pressure a few months ago. From what I recall, ganon basically doesn't have true shield pressure. Rather, he can condition his opponent into shielding or choose a poor oos option. It's more of a

M E N T A L D A M A G E
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thing.

 

[-ACE-]

LOL
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PseudoTurtle you can shieldgrab raptor boost, it's easier to shieldgrab than the gerudo

 

[Diosama]

LOL
O
L

PseudoTurtle you can shieldgrab raptor boost, it's easier to shieldgrab the gerudo

Wut? The only time I've seen gerudo get shield grabbed is by tether grabs. Whether or not you can shield grab the raptor boost depends on your shield size. If it's fresh, he'll be just out of reach, because he hit your shield, not you. But let's say he tried to nair > side b, the shield damage will shrink your shield enough for you to still block it then grab falcon.

 

[Swagic]

Gerudo is grabable with on point shield SDI (according to something I vaguely remember Ace saying a long time ago)

 

[-ACE-]

My phone ****ed up. Missed a crucial word in that post.

 

[Diosama]

I did not consider that, makes much more sense

 

[Diosama]

Double post, don't hurt me Locke

Did better at yesterday's weekly than I usually do. Went 3-2 in sets as opposed to the standard 2-2. Had a stream game against a buddy of mine, it was his last weekly so we were kinda ****ing around, but I'll share it here anyways once it comes up. I meesed up the DI on falcon's knee a lot, leading to some premature deaths, also had a some panic djs. Was teching in place quite a bit too, and I'm thankful I didn't get punished for it much at all, still something to always keep in mind against falcons.

Lost to an ICs players r2 winners. Never ever played that mu lol. I had trouble kill confirming nana and I was constantly being desync blizzard grabbed. I'll work on, hopefully get some friendlies against local pr ICs players soon.

Then in loser's bracket I lost to luigi. Such a weird character for me to play against since I've essentially played 3 luigis, each with different playstyles, makes it hard to go in with a gameplan. But I know it's very doable, I definitely needed to adapt better to his defensive and patient play.

 

[Swagic]

So do we discuss IC matchup or Luigi now?

 

[-ACE-]

As soon as you get hit by blizzard, unless you're sure one SDI input will get you out, it's good to react with c-away + R for buffered roll and double tap away for 2 SDI's. Great against almost any multiple hitbox move when you're grounded.

As for the matchup, kage, RockCrock, linguini play it well. Big Pappa (cfl Ganon) even has 2 wins on drunk sloth.

 

[Diosama]

I definitely wasn't buffering rolls as I usually do, and I'll get started on SDI

ty

 

[Bwmat]

Blizzard is incredibly frustrating, but the match-up is in ganon's favor IMO

 

[Glennwood]

Went to a local Bi-weekly the other day, placed 5th which I can live with but I know I could have done better, got put out by a fox who kept shine spiking me and killing me at 20-40%. Rather frustrating, as I have never really played a fox who relied so heavily on that. What I'm getting at is how in the hell do I deal with that? Same guy beat me and my friend in grand finals of doubles which really sucked after having to play like 5 sets in a row with how the tourney was set up, and again he and his teammate took me out with shine spikes, I just have no idea what to do to punish it or even avoid getting caught in wavedash shines.

 

[Divinokage]

Blizzard is incredibly frustrating, but the match-up is in ganon's favor IMO

You can trade backair against the blizzard, super worth.

 

[Glennwood]

You can trade backair against the blizzard, super worth.

What would you consider as a good option to split IC's up in the MU? I usually SHFFL a Uair or pop one up with a Dair and Bair them off stage afterwards.

 

[Divinokage]

What would you consider as a good option to split IC's up in the MU? I usually SHFFL a Uair or pop one up with a Dair and Bair them off stage afterwards.

Setting up traps with jabs and ftilts as they wavedash in while mixing Fair + Dair if you are facing forward and pivoting with backair to get better angles + stuffing their approach faster and more safely.

 

[Diosama]

Went to a local Bi-weekly the other day, placed 5th which I can live with but I know I could have done better, got put out by a fox who kept shine spiking me and killing me at 20-40%. Rather frustrating, as I have never really played a fox who relied so heavily on that. What I'm getting at is how in the hell do I deal with that? Same guy beat me and my friend in grand finals of doubles which really sucked after having to play like 5 sets in a row with how the tourney was set up, and again he and his teammate took me out with shine spikes, I just have no idea what to do to punish it or even avoid getting caught in wavedash shines.

You have to look at the bigger picture

Start asking yourself how you're getting shinespiked, or what the setup is, and it better not be after fox bthrow at the ledge lmao. 1 tip is to go high and aim for a platform. You can also intercept him with upair

Also, Melee isn't as simple as "how to I beat option A? do option B". So things like using upair to cover his shinespike won't work over and over again if the player has some brain cells.

 

[Glennwood]

You have to look at the bigger picture

Start asking yourself how you're getting shinespiked, or what the setup is, and it better not be after fox bthrow at the ledge lmao. 1 tip is to go high and aim for a platform. You can also intercept him with upair

Also, Melee isn't as simple as "how to I beat option A? do option B". So things like using upair to cover his shinespike won't work over and over again if the player has some brain cells.

A lot of the set ups were me getting punished, especially if I missed a l cancel, which boiled down to, 4 mistakes and it was the end of me. Don't worry I'm not THAT bad haha. I was more thinking just approaching options, I get the whole the player will adapt and it is totally not a rock paper scissors logic game so I suppose I could have worded my question better. I think a major part is I was simply out played and out of my element, kinda in a remote area with not much competition around where I live except in halifax which I can't make it to very often. Thanks for the tips man, I still got a lot to learn and with a major lack of Ganon's around for me to play with I've been on my own in terms of advice so I appreciate it, been reading a lot of what you guys have to say. I really would like some respect from my area, sick of being told to pick up Capt. F if i wanna get more competitive.

 

[Bwmat]

You should pick up Falcon, if only for bad match ups & fd

 

[Divinokage]

https://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/71353561?t=02h26m21s Tipman was saying about using Nair on platforms and that's generally the way it should be done, it's to either catch jumps or put the pressure on platforms. The only problem being shielded there is that you have to go for a risky mixup. I wouldn't necessarily jab in succession from the nair pressure but i think shield dropping there may be a good option to stay safe if the opponent didnt do it first. In this case as i did catch his jump there, the falling Fair was guaranteed though not a true combo.

 

[tm]

i got super sheiked today.

i dont know how to play neutral, tm teach me.

Don't play neutral, play punish LOL
real talk I'm not successful in that MU because of neutral, it's because of punish. Strong punish vs sheik, very strong DI and recovery vs sheik, to the point where I recover or get out of 'guaranteed' combos frequently, even against good players. CG and get the best guaranteed punishes possible in your sleep. Then be able to identify the non-guaranteed punishes that you could get (opponent-specific) that are stronger and punish their laziness with those every once in a while. DI and edge tech like a god, be able to upB, walltechjump bair, airdodge, FF sweetspot upB, etc. etc. Sheild or avoid needles EVERY time. Buffer roll away if she gets close, she has to read it to get a grab. Just keep rolling lol. Don't get grabbed.

Will write something less ****ty at some other point in time

So let's say someone is shielding toward the edge of a platform so that if they are knocked off they enter tumble animation. If you uair them off the platform, what can you get off that? I feel like jab is guaranteed but I have no idea. Maybe grab or other tilts?

Depends on floatiness. They'll have 25 frames of lag once they slide off (and their shield goes away), so subtract your uair lag from that and there you have your frame advantage. Some characters are forced to tech based on fall speed & platform height. A lot of times you can probably get jab/ftilt/dtilt/grab, but it's situational

Does Ganon HAVE decent shield pressure?

short answer: no
slightly less short answer: yes, it's called not hitting their shield unless you're spaced very well

https://youtu.be/Nz96jXpuB7E

7:02 tm think about what gamble you want to make in that techchasing situation given the stocks. "What if I had covered ledge???" <--- I've asked myself that a lot in these situations, the reward is hard to pass up. Just a thought.

**** me dude. Yeah I know, and at least 50% of the time that I go for it, they don't pick it lol. Sucks that there's no reliable option coverage when techchasing falcon on the ground. My batting average is definitely .33 or worse

This is something I'd like to talk about.

I crouch cancel here 100% of the time for a few reasons. The first reason, which is evident in the clip, is that sometimes even though you technically have a few frames to shield, you get poked. Ripple called it a "shield flicker." Not sure what the technical term is, but to put it simply, your shield isn't fully up yet even though you had frame advantage, and you get hit with the move. Watch at half speed if you can't catch it.

The second reason I cc is because, for whatever reason, sometimes you can't shield grab falcon out of his side-b. Not sure why that happens or at what spacing. I don't think I need to find a clip of this happening.

CC into grab is guaranteed at low % and it's a very viable (and IMO better) option than shielding a bad raptor boost. Just my PSA for the day.

edit: welcome back @Renth

The frame window to shield grab falcon's sideB is only 2 or 3 frames (I forget which), assuming that you full-shield and don't shield DI. If you light shield, shield DI away at all, or powershield, you can't grab it. If you shield DI in, the frame window is huge (like 10+ frames I think). **** is pretty hard to react to though. I think the best option is to train your spotdodge / roll, because jumping over it requires you to read it or already be in the air. Add it to the giant list of **** that I need to train and can't do on 20XX. Anyways if you spot dodge or roll, you get a free stomp (unless you roll through him from close range), which is soooo good vs falcon, and discourages his from using this dumbass option altogether.

CCing is definitely good, and way easier too. I never CCd because I never thought of it and don't know the %s.
PSA: you can CC it until 51%, above which you are forced to tech. It won't knock you up until 132% if you CC.
But also I am less inclined to go for that because my grab punishes are pure ****. Getting to the point where I think I might rather dtilt than grab most of the time (when it knocks down). 50/50s for 10% and 33/33/33s for an aerial after a read or a really really dumb mistake by them makes me cry

Can you theoretically cc dsmash raptor boost? That'd be sick

no. If you are frame-perfect, he will put up his shield on the same frame
If you condition them to expect the grab, or if they bad, maybe they won't shield for some reason and it will work

Videos from yesterday:
vs Prince Abu (Puff) WQF
vs Juggleguy (Falcon) LB
bleh

 

[-ACE-]

ganon is unviable

Good **** taking games with an unviable character tm!

 

[tm]

games aren't worth ****

 

[-ACE-]

games aren't worth ****

Did you see bizz's reaction when he took one off armada's Fox?!?!

 

[Diosama]

You should pick up Falcon, if only for bad match ups & fd

Peach and Pikachu will **** Falcon up on FD

 

[ForTheLulz]

Peach and Pikachu will **** Falcon up on FD

Peach is not quite that bad if you can win neutral often on FD because Falcon has very guaranteed degenerate upair strings on peach at higher percents.

On FD, you can combo off grab pretty well at lower percents (0-30), but most falcons, even at pretty high level, absolutely suck at getting anything off dthrow at this percent because the guaranteed followups are wonky (fj nair on di in, regrab on di full out, stomp techchase if slightly up and out and you can't really get a nair without it being just sdi'd up or upair without it being tanked and you get naired because peach)

Pikachu's pretty bad since he's as fast as falcon and his punish game is infinitely better (death cg)

owait this isn't the falcon boards is this allowed

 

[X WaNtEd X]

games aren't worth ****

that's not true. what kind of world would we live in if chillin got 4-1'd instead of 5-0'd?

 

[Bwmat]

Peach and Pikachu will **** Falcon up on FD

Well yeah, it's not as if ganon/Falcon covers all matchups, but it's easy since they're similar lol

 

[-ACE-]

that's not true. what kind of world would we live in if chillin got 4-1'd instead of 5-0'd?

LOL GRIM's comebacks powering up

 

[Glennwood]

You should pick up Falcon, if only for bad match ups & fd

Well I do have a decent enough Falcon, and I have Samus for certain situations, but it was said along the lines as "Drop Ganon for Falcon" which wont happen haha. Erks me, especially after I just beat him in losers.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I tried the "Drop Ganon for Falcon" mantra for a good 6 months and made very little progress with the character aside from the basics. Forcing myself to do something just for the sake of taking that advice and sticking to it doesn't help you in the long run. Don't do what other people tell you to do, 9 times out of 10 they are probably wrong and making assumptions.

 

[-ACE-]

Falcon and Ganon are so different. Kage is a true Ganon main and his falcon rarely gives him an edge, and his falcon is damn good. But look at n0ne... Playing Ganon kinda like falcon can have its benefits.

 

[Diosama]

Speaking of falcon, here's my set from wednesday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPGs8kTWC5k

SUPER SICK tomahwak down b to cover roll at 4:40

 

[Divinokage]

Falcon and Ganon are so different. Kage is a true Ganon main and his falcon rarely gives him an edge, and his falcon is damn good. But look at n0ne... Playing Ganon kinda like falcon can have its benefits.

It definitely does vs Sheik.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

The frame window to shield grab falcon's sideB is only 2 or 3 frames (I forget which), assuming that you full-shield and don't shield DI. If you light shield, shield DI away at all, or powershield, you can't grab it. If you shield DI in, the frame window is huge (like 10+ frames I think). **** is pretty hard to react to though. I think the best option is to train your spotdodge / roll, because jumping over it requires you to read it or already be in the air. Add it to the giant list of **** that I need to train and can't do on 20XX. Anyways if you spot dodge or roll, you get a free stomp (unless you roll through him from close range), which is soooo good vs falcon, and discourages his from using this ******* option altogether.

CCing is definitely good, and way easier too. I never CCd because I never thought of it and don't know the %s.
PSA: you can CC it until 51%, above which you are forced to tech. It won't knock you up until 132% if you CC.
But also I am less inclined to go for that because my grab punishes are pure ****. Getting to the point where I think I might rather dtilt than grab most of the time (when it knocks down). 50/50s for 10% and 33/33/33s for an aerial after a read or a really really dumb mistake by them makes me cry

So I'm missing not because of a spacing aspect, but because I'm mis-timing my grab? That makes sense, it's a tight window. You're correct though, I bet spot dodging or rolling through would be the best option for punish because of guaranteed stomp. Just gotta be careful though, it takes 3 (right?) frames to spot dodge and then there's a few frames where the rapot boost will still "hit" and the animation will look like it hit you, but you spot dodge. No punish. Also doesn't prevent from the shield flicker.

I think I'm going to keep cc'ing here, but whatever works best for everybody, I say go for it. Btw, there's a reactable chain grab / punish on falcon. Bizz was demonstrating it on his stream. Dthrow chain grab until they DI behind and you can react to a tech chase. Up throw chain grab until they DI in front and you can react with an aerial. Haven't tried it myself, but looked viable.

 

[-ACE-]

It definitely does vs Sheik.

True, at super high level. You'd have to divert a considerable amount of focus from Ganon just to properly learn the sheik matchup with falcon, the way wizzy/n0ne play it.

 

[tm]

So I'm missing not because of a spacing aspect, but because I'm mis-timing my grab? That makes sense, it's a tight window. You're correct though, I bet spot dodging or rolling through would be the best option for punish because of guaranteed stomp. Just gotta be careful though, it takes 3 (right?) frames to spot dodge and then there's a few frames where the rapot boost will still "hit" and the animation will look like it hit you, but you spot dodge. No punish. Also doesn't prevent from the shield flicker.

Yes, those are valid concerns. Same thing can happen vs the roll btw.

So I'm missing not because of a spacing aspect, but because I'm mis-timing my grab? That makes sense, it's a tight window. You're correct though, I bet spot dodging or rolling through would be the best option for punish because of guaranteed stomp. Just gotta be careful though, it takes 3 (right?) frames to spot dodge and then there's a few frames where the rapot boost will still "hit" and the animation will look like it hit you, but you spot dodge. No punish. Also doesn't prevent from the shield flicker.

I think I'm going to keep cc'ing here, but whatever works best for everybody, I say go for it. Btw, there's a reactable chain grab / punish on falcon. Bizz was demonstrating it on his stream. Dthrow chain grab until they DI behind and you can react to a tech chase. Up throw chain grab until they DI in front and you can react with an aerial. Haven't tried it myself, but looked viable.

What do you mean? There's no real punish there, you have to read them if they DI properly. It might be possible to regrab or jab anything from a dthrow, but probably only for a very small set of %s.
Most of the time:
Dthrow -> DI behind -> techchase (no guaranteed punish)
Uthrow -> DI away (no punish)

 

[-ACE-]

At low/medium levels, occasionally all levels depending on stage positioning, you can dthrow falcon and regrab if he DI's in front and hard read techroll behind I'd he DI's behind. There's nothing guaranteed but if you get in his head lots is possible. Kinda like dthrow (no DI or DI away), immediate dthrow (no DI or DI away) into uthrow for punish. Just picking up on habits and sensing their mindset/how scared they are.

At least with the first scenario you reset neutral and can't be punished.

 

[F. Stein]

That video is only 2:09 long, am I getting trolled

Lol i was tired, 15 hour convoy. Anyways, the last few games of that grand final set are Ian's Bowser, I was joking lol.

 

[Divinokage]

True, at super high level. You'd have to divert a considerable amount of focus from Ganon just to properly learn the sheik matchup with falcon, the way wizzy/n0ne play it.

Pretty sure I can beat most Sheiks with Falcon with a few adjustments.