Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, up air comes out on frame 5, so 11 if fp. I made some gfycats tonight boys. I played like SHlT for my first two matches, so I said **** it and just went for dumb wizard foot spikes and stuff. It worked out pretty well, some of that stuff will have to be in how to wreck ******* part 2

Idk how to gfycat a twitch vod, but THESE TWO STOCKS OH SHlT

Oh and one more thing that I learned today: you can buffer a goddamn tech by lightly pressing R/L, as if you were light shielding. Do this as you're pressing up-b, then all you have to worry about is the SDI and you'll tech. Crazy.

 

[-ACE-]

This IS how to wreck *****es part 2 lol

that part 1 tho

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/ZlwlvUyKSII

Just had the pleasure of being view #10,000 on coastward's Ganon combo vid. Who was the Ganon around the 4 minute mark? 4:02 that dair was RAW AS ****, get bodied getup attack.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

https://youtu.be/ZlwlvUyKSII

Just had the pleasure of being view #10,000 on coastward's Ganon combo vid. Who was the Ganon around the 4 minute mark? 4:02 that dair was RAW AS ****, get bodied getup attack.

I wanna say it was Kage, not sure why but it just seems Kage-ish

 

[tauKhan]

Oh and one more thing that I learned today: you can buffer a goddamn tech by lightly pressing R/L, as if you were light shielding. Do this as you're pressing up-b, then all you have to worry about is the SDI and you'll tech. Crazy.

Tech can be only initiated with the digital full press of R/L. Tested it out with ganons upb just to make sure as well. 20 frames window still makes it free though.

 

[Coastward]

https://youtu.be/ZlwlvUyKSII

Just had the pleasure of being view #10,000 on coastward's Ganon combo vid. Who was the Ganon around the 4 minute mark? 4:02 that dair was RAW AS ****, get bodied getup attack.

<3 <3 <3

that was kage stylin on waz

 

[-ACE-]

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/mobile

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ganondorf cannot run up and grab someone. He's just too slow to do that. So in order to compensate, you have to dash towards, wavedash in and grab once your wavedash lag is done. You can also waveland in but you need to come in with something fast cause Ganon is just way to effin slow to just get a grab from running or dashing. You have to constantly combine wavedashing and dashing in this pseudo-dash dance sort of way in order to get the most movement out of Ganon, as well as doing empty hops into wavelands.

It's a rough crutch that Ganon suffers because of his diminished and ****ty speed, but it's completely necessary for him to do at least half decently in neutral. He can be hurtful on the hands if wavedashing a lot hurts you (as it does for me when I do it too much).

Waveland in to jab is also completely under-used and you guys should use it way more. You can start mixing up waveland in to jab with a grab when they start putting up their shield. I honestly think the less that you jump, the better, so I really think we should also stop jumping up to platforms just to waveland off of them and come down on the opponent. Ganon is a$$ in the air and we need to be using CC a lot more. Okay maybe not less jumping but less use of platforms to get on for not good reason. You'll still need to jump in order to do things like retreating and drifting aerials, but in general you really want to keep your distance from the opponent and concentrate on controlling the stage and slipping through your enemies holes when they try to corner you.

 

[-ACE-]

I also heard you say Ganons DD was useless once. You can definitely dash + jc grab any character. This misconception is hurting Ganon mains. We should try to be the kings of getting grabs.

wL to jab is super situational despite being good. Jab being underused I'd agree with. People really expect wL's from Ganon nowadays. Empty sh to jab is honestly better now considering the metagame. It all depends. Reaction time is the key.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I learned today that playing well on a hangover is hard as hell. Never expect to win on a hangover >.> And the worst part is I talked so much **** before this event because I was drunk lol.

Florida
Hbox
Plup
Colbol
gahtzu
Clay (porkchops)
Eikelmann/Linguini/spider_sense
Blea
Wizzrobe
(Hm: gravy esam zidane rice etc)

VERSUS

Cali
Mango
Lucky
westballz
PewpewU
Sfat
Fiction
Shroomed
MacD

Legggo!

This list is incredibly ganon biased lol. I love the top FL ganons, but let's be real. Gravy, Zidane, and Rice are all more consistent within FL these days. At least that's my understanding from watching your weeklies and looking at the most recent PR for both southern and central FL.

 

[-ACE-]

I would argue Ian is a much better member for the crew battle than any of the players you named. One Ganon player should represent the south anyway imo (for matchup inexperience), but honestly Ian has earned that right though skill and notable wins alone.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

sup bltches.
https://gfycat.com/SameWaryBabirusa

many m;any more to come. fvck fox and his shlt

 

[-ACE-]

Lol bodayyyd

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I would argue Ian is a much better member for the crew battle than any of the players you named. One Ganon player should represent the south anyway imo (for matchup inexperience), but honestly Ian has earned that right though skill and notable wins alone.

Oh I mean there's a difference between who's the best for the crew battle and who's ranked higher. I think Ian would deserve the spot over all your HMs except Gravy.

 

[-ACE-]

Agreed for the most part. I didn't think 3 falcons were necessary lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I mean yeah it's a little weird 3 of their top players are Falcon. But no one ever questions a crew that's predominately made of spcae animals or other more common characters so idk

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

florida would beg to differ and would almost definitely have 3 falcons on the crew battle over having 2 falcons 1 ganondorf. i appreciate the support though ace.

also i'm without bias and i'm almost positive that socal would beat florida. the sheer fact that they would be barred from having norcal participate as well is a testament to the fact that california is the undisputed best smash region of all time, for most smash games as well.

also i'm looking for good vids of falcon ganondorf in teams. need to study stuff since i'll be teaming with GA Wes in the UK next week.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

snip

You're right about ganon's ****ty run speed, but a good grab game is a necessity (which I somewhat lack). But why can't you just run up and grab? If they're shielding, its a good option. Empty hops, waveland, and shield DI into grab are good options. Dash dance into grab is very viable as well, it's just different for ganon than other characters because he's slow, so you usually have to go the full length of the dash dance.

Regarding wavedash --> jab, it's a decent approach option, but it's better as a follow up IMO, I.e. after an up air at low percent. In terms of approach options, wavedash ftilt is a little better vs a dash dancing opponent, due to its range.

Cool trick: when shielding, a good opponent will dash dance and wait for the roll because ganon likes to roll. Perfect wavedash --> ftilt is a good option to stuff the dd because of the speed.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

also i'm looking for good vids of falcon ganondorf in teams. need to study stuff since i'll be teaming with GA Wes in the UK next week.

Allow me to show you what it looks like when $mike and I team for a Doubles Exhibition.
http://www.twitch.tv/kneedeepgaming/b/666586392

I honestly felt like I did a good job of building walls here in a lot of these vids. Sorry that you'll have to scroll though a bunch of them, but they're all kind of useful to look at in their own way.

@ PseudoTurtle I mean, you can run up and grab as a hard read on like a mid-level player who you've scared them into shielding, but it simply will not work against higher attentive players because Ganon's run speed is so slow that people can react to it, hell, even scrubs in my area can react to me just trying to run up and grab them and I get spot-dodged (though I'm usually obvious about it. It's a habit many people have though and easy to punish with a stomp.)

I've tried numerous times to just run out of the way of moves and dash back in to get the grab and I get caught so many more times than not. You have to be a certain distance away from your opponent in order to get those dash dances away and back into a grab to where you're far enough away to where it looks like the opponent won't commit to something that will just get dash-danced and grabbed, let alone by Ganondorf haha.

Falcon is just able to do it so much better because of his incredibly good dashing speed.

In my head, I think of it like this:

• Falcon can dash away on reaction and get a grab
• Ganon has to commit to dashing away first before he gets a grab.

It's just one of those things that has to be compensated for in some way because Ganon is kind of butt in this regard.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Allow me to show you what it looks like when $mike and I team for a Doubles Exhibition.
http://www.twitch.tv/kneedeepgaming/b/666586392

I honestly felt like I did a good job of building walls here in a lot of these vids. Sorry that you'll have to scroll though a bunch of them, but they're all kind of useful to look at in their own way.

did you refer @$mike to a good chiropractor after that event?

 

[-ACE-]

Lol.

Full length dd to fp dash jc grab when the timing's right is definitely good. It's true you have to maintain the right distance away from your opponent to set it up, but that could be said for any setup.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

New Ganon tech vs Luigi, let em grab you

 

[Ba-Yo]

View attachment 65951 New Ganon tech vs Luigi, let em grab you

Looks solid.

 

[Renth]

sup bltches.
https://gfycat.com/SameWaryBabirusa

many m;any more to come. fvck fox and his shlt

It makes me so happy to know someone spams down smash as much as I do.

 

[tm]

Does anyone remember at what frame uair and bair hitboxes emerge when fp? Basically I can't remember the jump startup frames. I think you can have a uair out on frame 11, and bair on frame 15, but I'm not sure.

I know jab is 3 and ftilt is 9.

Correction:
6 jumpsquat (airborne on 7). Uair in 6, nair in 7, bair in 10, fair in 14, dair in 16.
So 12 and 16.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

as much as I do.

More*

I ****ing love that move.

Yo blea with that grab tech LOLLLL. Was that taken at evo? That looks like Bally's. That was where we finally learned the mark matchup.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I love dsmash for tech chasing. Especially in teams. My Sheik teams partner will cover tech away while I cover everything else with dsmash. So good.

But lately I've been finding that if they DI towards me and then tech that direction dsmash will not cover. So be wary of your opponent's DI before spamming it for tech chases.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yo I've been playing with this idea in my head. I'm not sure it would even be viable if it works, but is there a way that ganon could do a 20GX style tech chase with perfect wavelands?

Like jumping after a throw, no fast fall, and then wavelanding in the direction of the tech to regrab? I sometimes do this if I'm just messing around, but it's always prediction rather than reaction. Can someone test this? Paging @Magus420

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yo I've been playing with this idea in my head. I'm not sure it would even be viable if it works, but is there a way that ganon could do a 20GX style tech chase with perfect wavelands?

Like jumping after a throw, no fast fall, and then wavelanding in the direction of the tech to regrab? I sometimes do this if I'm just messing around, but it's always prediction rather than reaction. Can someone test this? Paging @Magus420

Not sure about wavelands but I've watched gravy test it with fair/dair to cover tech in place and then reacting with either bair or pivot bair to cover tech away and towards ( pretty much Ganon copying 20gx) and with fair it was insanely close to being guaranteed when you're fp. Like the outline of ganon's bair hitbox was touching.

 

[tm]

Yo I've been playing with this idea in my head. I'm not sure it would even be viable if it works, but is there a way that ganon could do a 20GX style tech chase with perfect wavelands?

Like jumping after a throw, no fast fall, and then wavelanding in the direction of the tech to regrab? I sometimes do this if I'm just messing around, but it's always prediction rather than reaction. Can someone test this? Paging @Magus420

Unlikely. Even if it's possible to regrab the rolls, there are probably no good punishes for no tech / tech in place using the same setup prior to them landing. Best case is probably that it's possible to uair no tech / tech in place and regrab tech rolls, but even then I doubt it's possible. I could test it if there's any interest though

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Unlikely. Even if it's possible to regrab the rolls, there are probably no good punishes for no tech / tech in place using the same setup prior to them landing. Best case is probably that it's possible to uair no tech / tech in place and regrab tech rolls, but even then I doubt it's possible. I could test it if there's any interest though

Well, yes, no tech would be the problem because there's no guaranteed punish if they roll away afterwards because ganon is so slow. Maybe side-b? I don't know. It may only be possible at tas levels anyway.

Interesting about Gravy's coverage, I didn't know that was even possible, actually.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Well it's only possible if you're fp and they don't shield or whatever as soon as they can. So it's pretty much useless. It's almost insulting how close you can get t covering all tech options lol.

I feel like maybe after a dthrow you could jump and ff uair on reaction to cover tech in place. If you could do that on reactio then you could waveland on reaction into regrab to cover the other techs. But I highly doubt this works.

Multiple option coverage is the future. And covering all the options when you can in places like platforms and by the ledge. You're better off just learning how to cover ever option when you can and taking full advantage when you get grabs in these areas.

 

[-ACE-]

You'd have to be in midair already, land just after he has chosen his tech option (basically time it so you could still grab tech in place with empty sh > grab on the last possible frame) so that you could snap left or right and hit R. The timing in which you would need to land would be incredibly strict, you'd have to be very responsive/reactionary to visual cues and execute it with perfect precision, down to the fp turnaround grab out of perfect wL for DI behind. Then I'm just not sure the frames are quite there but I'd like to see an attempted test tbh. It could be TAS possible.

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/ffTXarwAJfo

10:05 is almost an example of this scenario. Bizz went for the hard read on DI behind (baited by the dj) and got it, but would have been a tad late for tech in place. Close though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Interesting. So perhaps a waveland tech chase could be better utilized off a dthrow jab. Would the jab give you more time to get a jump? It looks like it. I don't think a dj ff uair would be fast enough to cover tech in place. But it would be pretty safe on shield and keep you in control. Perhaps a sh ff uair would be after all. It would at the very least be faster and it would also be safe on shield. But what if they shine? What if they spot dodge? The threat of a shine retaliation wouldn't exist when using this against Falcon, so perhaps it would be better in that matchup.

But one thing's for sure. Bizz definitely reacted to that tech with the waveland. And he could've done the same thing if Fox teched away I believe. Given the notion that a sh ff uair could potentially cover tech in place better, it is all the more imperative that people master perfect sh wavelands, as perfect wavelands are needed to make this tech chase truly possible. Anyone can double jump perfect waveland.

 

[-ACE-]

$1,000,000 he made the decision to waveland back before Fox had chosen a tech option. Classic bait and hard read. Fake aggression, retreat to cover tech behind.

I got the money.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Perhaps. I don't have the money to challenge you on that.

But I played the video in slow motion and he started the waveland after Fox teched. So it seems it is possible to react, but you'd have to be really fast.

 

[-ACE-]

I swear if you're right I'll mail you the milly lol. Tbh I don't have a great deal of faith in bizz's reaction skills.... He loves baits (and does well with them) and virtually never cg's spacies. But I could be wrong.

Also if anyone knows how to play YouTube vids in slo-mo on Android, or an app that allows it, hook a brotha up lol

 

[tm]

https://youtu.be/ffTXarwAJfo

10:05 is almost an example of this scenario. Bizz went for the hard read on DI behind (baited by the dj) and got it, but would have been a tad late for tech in place. Close though.

Interesting. So perhaps a waveland tech chase could be better utilized off a dthrow jab. Would the jab give you more time to get a jump? It looks like it. I don't think a dj ff uair would be fast enough to cover tech in place. But it would be pretty safe on shield and keep you in control. Perhaps a sh ff uair would be after all. It would at the very least be faster and it would also be safe on shield. But what if they shine? What if they spot dodge? The threat of a shine retaliation wouldn't exist when using this against Falcon, so perhaps it would be better in that matchup.

But one thing's for sure. Bizz definitely reacted to that tech with the waveland. And he could've done the same thing if Fox teched away I believe. Given the notion that a sh ff uair could potentially cover tech in place better, it is all the more imperative that people master perfect sh wavelands, as perfect wavelands are needed to make this tech chase truly possible. Anyone can double jump perfect waveland.

You guys that was a missed tech roll, not a tech in lol. And he definitely read the roll

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://gfycat.com/DeliciousCloseBufflehead
https://gfycat.com/PoliteUnitedIceblueredtopzebra
https://gfycat.com/NaiveSecondhandDuiker
https://gfycat.com/SameWaryBabirusa
https://gfycat.com/FrighteningGreedyAntlion
https://gfycat.com/SnoopySpeedyBanteng