Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

so is bizz's guide good? what can i learn from it that i don't already know

 

[Superspright]

The secrets of the universe. That's all.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Input A a frame or 2 later and make sure the stick is tilted enough. Good **** man.

Btw bizz is wrong, you certainly can. Maybe he has a **** controller LOL

if i keep dash attacking am I too late?

 

[Coastward]

so who wants to team at big house? im fiending for some double ganon.

 

[Stratocaster]

Those numbers are based on P1 Ganon throwing P2 Peach. P2 Ganon throwing P1 Peach has +1 frame advantage. I checked by trying out that Nair / Fair trade. with the port closer to 1, Nair trades with Fair, but with the port closer to 4, Fair wins in that range straight up.

 

[-ACE-]

if i keep dash attacking am I too late?

Yeah, ftilt is between lmao. So tough

Edit: higher port, MORE priority? Damn ......or do you mean when PEACH is at port 4 fair wins out right? If so that makes sense

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Jesus I never knew just how abysmal my l-canceling was with Ganon. l-canceling with dair and fair takes a lot more brain power than I thought because it puts Ganon into hitlag when he lands those moves. Plus missing the l-cancels on those moves is horrendous. I'd argue that Ganon is the character in the game that needs to l-cancel every aerial more than any other character.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

So why would you grab a double laser instead of jab? I just read that and that sounds absurd. Jab out of their double jump? That's so free I don't know why you would give them the gift of their jump back.

Nice post, Dave. That's a lot of useful information. I need all the info I can get regarding peach lol

 

[Bwmat]

yeah ganon has moves which can be hard to l-cancel. It just takes practice to know the timing and adjust to whether you hit or not.

I still miss dair l-cancels all the time so many years on.

 

[-ACE-]

Just R twice when in doubt, you'll never miss the cancel. I use this sometimes vs 2 shielding climbers.

Also I really think we should be abusing auto cancels more in general.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Hitting R twice is pretty legit. I use it very occasionally, but it always works when I do. I should use it more than I do.

On an unrelated note: who else wishes G. Vice still played? That dude had the sickest combos.

 

[-ACE-]

G. Vice is the man. We need to force him into attending a national lol

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

g vice has a full time job as a nurse in a hospital and he's also married. he went out to some tournament outside of arkansas recently and did pretty well iirc but good luck getting him to leave the surrounding area.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm aware, Zane's a buddy of mine tho. Went and smashed with him in little rock once. I know he has the wife, the job, and church.... But I bet I could get him to make an appearance one day.

so who wants to team at big house? im fiending for some double ganon.

Also I would if I was going, lol.

 

[tauKhan]

Edit: higher port, MORE priority? Damn ......or do you mean when PEACH is at port 4 fair wins out right? If so that makes sense

If the character who throws has higher port, the throw inflicts 1 frame more hitstun than if the thrower has lower port. See http://smashboards.com/threads/how-port-priority-affects-throws.393128/

So why would you grab a double laser instead of jab? I just read that and that sounds absurd. Jab out of their double jump? That's so free I don't know why you would give them the gift of their jump back.

Because you can grab out of shield, and approaching the ledge with shield protects you from ledgehop aerials, dair in particular, as well. You can also do the shield grab from a longer distance because you can dash into shield.

If you can react to the falco doing an aerial instead of lhdl in time, then jab is of course much better alternative unless you get the grab spike which won't happen that often.
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-port-priority-affects-throws.393128/

 

[-ACE-]

If the character who throws has higher port, the throw inflicts 1 frame more hitstun than if the thrower has lower port. See http://smashboards.com/threads/how-port-priority-affects-throws.393128/

That is badass. But if both of you grab at the same time within range, p1 grabs p2-4 correct? I'm thinking about taking p4 for throw stun LOOOOL

 

[-ACE-]

This would also make dthrow nair vs Peach a true combo (edit: AT 0%), would it not? This would definitely help a lot for more grab based matchups. That extra frame for error. One frame makes a decent difference if you think about the speed of a shine vs that of a jab that his on frame 2.

 

[tauKhan]

That is badass. But if both of you grab at the same time within range, p1 grabs p2-4 correct? I'm thinking about taking p4 for throw stun LOOOOL

Yeah this is reversed order to the grabbing / ledgegrabbing priority where p1 is the best. I already always take p4 or rps for that, but I play fox who is prone to getting cg'd / can cg himself.

I think in most mus the throw stun difference isn't that important. It matters most in the borderline cases where a move barely combos, especially if the victim can buffer a dj to escape. 2 frame window is a lot easier to hit than 1 frame window. Also in cg mus it can be huge because in many cases you can reliably cg for even 10% more with the better port.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah this will help a LOT for regrabbing sheik at 65-80% when she DI's up and slightly behind while spamming dj. Same for the ditto cg around 50%. The second regrab vs marth at zero will be mad free too. I like this

 

[X WaNtEd X]

so is bizz's guide good? what can i learn from it that i don't already know

No offense to bizz, but I don't think it covers anything a truly advanced player wouldn't know. It seems to be mostly geared towards newer and relatively experienced players, which is fine. You might get a glimpse on how bizz sees some of the fundamental Ganon tech, but you probably won't learn anything new. Like the only thing I really learned was the pivot ftilt timing to a certain extent.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So why would you grab a double laser instead of jab? I just read that and that sounds absurd. Jab out of their double jump? That's so free I don't know why you would give them the gift of their jump back.

Nice post, Dave. That's a lot of useful information. I need all the info I can get regarding peach lol

Because at high percents you can guarantee yourself a kill with a wizard foot or bair setup. But mostly I was just curious if it worked.

 

[-ACE-]

Ftilt out of dthrow is best at 110-130% since most people DI fully. Any partial DI is wizkick city. And if you have a plat, there's the platform tech/offstage trap (teching can make you whiff bair if you're not careful), but he gets his jump back so edgeguarding normally requires a read. Also dtilt is good when they lhdl high and you're not super close in (run up, wd back is common when ganon reads a ledgehop aerial, sets up for dtilt).

@ T tauKhan if you get hit while dtilting, is it a CC since it's a crouching move? Or do you only get ASDI?

 

[Superspright]

So why would you grab a double laser instead of jab? I just read that and that sounds absurd. Jab out of their double jump? That's so free I don't know why you would give them the gift of their jump back.

Nice post, Dave. That's a lot of useful information. I need all the info I can get regarding peach lol

I may be wrong, but if you shield-grab after the first laser you can grab-release him using his second laser (the timing is tight). He gets no chance to recovery unless he up-b's which is really bad and can be easily punished with run off fair, or run off dair.

 

[tauKhan]

@ -ACE- Crouch knockback reduction is strictly tied to the crouch animations, you can only ASDI if you get hit during dtilt.

@ S Superspright Yes, that's the grab spike I mentioned in my posts. You would need to hit the grab on the exact same frame the 2nd laser comes out if the falco executes his lhdl well, so you can't reliably get the grab spike.

 

[Superspright]

@ -ACE- Crouch knockback reduction is strictly tied to the crouch animations, you can only ASDI if you get hit during dtilt.

@ S Superspright Yes, that's the grab spike I mentioned in my posts. You would need to hit the grab on the exact same frame the 2nd laser comes out if the falco executes his lhdl well, so you can't reliably get the grab spike.

I'm fairly certain you can use the hit-stun from the first laser as a way to time it easier (the hitstun ends roughly when his second laser is about to come out). The hitstun on a fresh laser is different from a staled one though so it may not be a reliable tool. If someone can learn to do this fairly consistently they will be very good. I was trying to learn it, but I don't have a good Falco to play.

 

[tauKhan]

I don't see how you could use the hitstun to your aid, since you can't buffer the grab during it, and there's a 3 frame gap between the grab input and end of hitstun anyway.

 

[-ACE-]

I figured that was the case.

 

[Superspright]

I don't see how you could use the hitstun to your aid, since you can't buffer the grab during it, and there's a 3 frame gap between the grab input and end of hitstun anyway.

Mash it.

 

[tauKhan]

It would still be only 25% chance to get the spike in case you even manage to grab early enough. Anyway it's easy to hit the 4 frame window to get the grab by just timing.

 

[Coastward]

got 7th at this arcadian tourney.

lost a ganon ditto in winners and got eliminated by the same sheik that eliminated me last week.

someone actually needs to sit me down and just talk to me about the matchup and ****. im tired of losing to sheik and feeling helpless.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

https://video-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/h...=7285fea1f1286143ffae83e1e6f4ea0a&oe=55B9E917 #ImaCameraMan

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I got 5th at WDW ****ING AGAIN DUDE WHAT THE ****. I can't get past that fifth spot. That being said, I played really well after losing to kels. Took vro to last game, last stock, high % and he got me with an fsmash. I'll get him next time.

Can anyone critique my set vs kels? My tech skill was pretty ****ty that first game, but I have no excuse for losing game 2, especially seeing as he SD'd twice. I suck at that matchup and any help would be greatly appreciated.

@ Coastward sheik sucks. That matchup is terrible. But I'm getting good at it and I've been beating sheiks that are (were?) considered above my level now. Obviously, you want to chain grab. And don't wall her out with jabs because she can and will dash attack out of your jab, so use downward angled ftilt for stuffing moves. A trick I have developed is just to watch her approach game. So, most sheiks will approach with either dash attack or grab and what you wanna do is feel her out- stay in shield until she approaches you and then roll away. Take note of what move your opponent chose to approach with and punish for it. If it was dash attack, just dash dance and then shield on the approach. If it was grab, I like to retreat fair, but I think you can stomp as well and that'll get you that tasty chain grab. Edge guarding is easy, just check Dave's thread on that one.

edit: Oh and FYI, the commentator criticizing my set has yet to win a game vs me in tournament lol... not that he's wrong about my neutral game, but my recoveries are approaching top tier. Pooch4scrub.

 

[-ACE-]

quote by KK:

"Ganon just like

Be able to do it at like 10-14 or so on away DI

Since it doesn't work at 0-7 or so anyway on away DI"

I was always pretty sure getting out of the cg at low% was legit but never looked it up

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I'm like almost consistent with the chaingrab on Sheik. But not enough for me to really want to try and 0 to death with it. I usually can get like 30-60 percent off it before I drop it. That being said, I think what I'm going to do is chaingrab until they DI the way I want and then end it with a strong punish. I have to fight two strong Sheiks this weekend (Tian and a hidden boss in my region), so I don't have enough time to perfect the chaingrab. What DI/percents will nair give me a free fair? And until what percent does uthrow work better over dthrow?

 

[-ACE-]

Damn, why are you dropping it? Lol. 0-44 turnaround grab for DI behind. JC grab everything else. Stay focused. You can profit from uthrow but dthrow guarantees she's fvcked.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Come on man, it's hard to ALWAYS get a 0 to death from it, especially if they SDI. I used to be really consistent with it last year when I played against Sheik all the time. But now the only good active Sheik in my region is tian, and he's in nh so I don't really get the same practice I used to. As a result, I've lost consistency and it's gonna take some time to get it back. So until then, I gotta come up with some creative punishes.

 

[-ACE-]

Well you should at least always finish with aerial. Just trying to encourage you to keep at it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

No don't get me wrong, I'm going to keep at it. I'm just looking for some help brainstorming some alternative punishes I can use this weekend at a tournament I'm going to.

 

[Coastward]

So I'm like almost consistent with the chaingrab on Sheik. But not enough for me to really want to try and 0 to death with it. I usually can get like 30-60 percent off it before I drop it. That being said, I think what I'm going to do is chaingrab until they DI the way I want and then end it with a strong punish. I have to fight two strong Sheiks this weekend (Tian and a hidden boss in my region), so I don't have enough time to perfect the chaingrab. What DI/percents will nair give me a free fair? And until what percent does uthrow work better over dthrow?

what percents do you usually drop it at? if you can figure that out, just work on fixing that and then if need be, work on a fail safe to cover ****ing up the chaingrab.

usually what i do is chaingrab til 70 and then depending on the situation: DI away > uair or DI behind > bair.

for uthrow, i think the max percent you can get away with an uair follow up is like 45-55. not too sure though.

 

[tauKhan]

@ X WaNtEd X How important is the tourney for you? I'd probably just try to go all the way with the cg even if I were inconsistent with it just to get more tourney experience at it. Play to learn. Just my opinion tho.

Also remember to pick up p4