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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Orah

Orah

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
34
Location
Richmond, Virginia
@ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle I think you'd enjoy FoD once you learn sheild dropping, I haven't really yet either but it's on my to do list. I agree with @ Coastward Coastward about it being a good CP against fox because of how small the stage is. I think I remember @Bizzarro Flame saying somewhere how once you grow accustomed to its tendencies it essentially becomes a second YS.
Right now I feel most comfortable on BF and YS but am working on FoD and DL64.
FD is bad for Ganon but I don't hate it. Once I develop a more solid ground game I'd like to think I'd be more comfortable playing there compared to the randomness of PS.
I like the grass stage on PS and neutral stage is okay.
Fire stage has a mini cave of life which can be good for survival and teching the tree can save you sometimes.
Water stage pretty much sucks, oddly placed platforms and windmill seem more like obstacles instead of beings useful to navigate the stage, I like to do crazy angled grounded wizard foots off the windmill but just like the stage, this also sucks.
Hate the rock stage, pit is usually bad for ganon, on the plus side, there's that getup attack gimmick on the cliff, but not a whole lot of room to fight and you can get stuck trying to roll away from the right ledge #Banned
If spaceys weren't so popular this definitely would be banned already and I've even talked to some spaceys who agree.

@ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM I agree about not being able to control space on DL and the survivabiltiy of the stage usually just means i takes a few more edgeguards to get killed. Wavelanding around the platforms seems slower than BF or YS but I probably just need to get used to it.

@ Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir Idk if we have mental blocks, I think it's more of a lack of execution like I know what I have to do against Marth but have not gained the consistency in execution that is needed for victory.

I gotta thank @ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM and @Omni for kind of opening my mind to playing this game differently, playing to learn rather than playing to win and growing as a player.
I lose a lot but I never really get frustrated because it shows me what I need to work on to be better and ever since I focused more on learning rather than winning it was like I instantly started playing smarter. Instead of getting 3 or 4 stocked consistently I'm taking them to final stock situations where I make one fatal error and lose.
I really think that's why I like playing as Ganon, his flaws make it harder to be successful with him. The challenge is invigorating and the struggle makes me stronger. You have to be perfect or you lose there is no middle ground. It's either the penthouse or the outhouse.

I see other players that have played longer than I have playing Sheik or space animals get frustrated and contemplate quitting because they can't get past this so called "mental block". They've grown spoiled in their characters advantages that they haven't been able truly understand the games fundamentals. They keep making the same mistakes and never learn from them because they're characters attributes can overcome these in low level play but when they get to the next level they show their true colors. They want to win now and while I'm not saying they don't work hard for it, in a way, playing a high tier character stunts their growth as a player in the long run. In order to succeed with a low tier character you HAVE to do all the little things right, you HAVE to understand your weaknesses and maximize your strengths. Know what options are available for you and your opponent at any given moment and capitalize. I use to focus so much on the technical aspect of the game but now I feel as if I'm finally starting to understand the fundamental side of the spectrum and bring balance to my playstyle.

I never knew who Ganon was until I played this game.
He maybe the King of Evil but to me atleast in this game, playing as him is almost like choosing to follow the light side of the force.
Not giving in to the dark side temptations like Sheik, Fox, or Falco.
Resisting the urge to win immediately.
Humbly making today's mistakes tomorrow's experience.
Not shying away from adversity.
Showing the ones who have turned from the light what real power is.
I love this game.

Hope everybody has a blessed day.
 
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Duel

Duel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
167
LightKaizo said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN3ZD4Rapk8
Match against a local Marth main in my area. Not my best gameplay but I still want critique anyways.
Click to expand...
I only watched game 1.

Up air more in neutral when you are facing marth, that down b in the air at the beginning is a No No, coming down with a dair from high above like that is really unsafe. You are better off in most circumstances relying on Bair rather than Fair (something I struggle with also). Keep marth above you, that's how you win the MU, you kept sitting above him. Practice your techs. You seem like you know what you are doing at times, and other times look a little lost.
 
spider_sense

spider_sense

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
2,295
Location
Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
In regards to spacies counterpicks. I usually base it off playstyles. I don't mind playing PS/FoD/Yoshi's/BF vs Fox. I usually ban Dreamland because against Fox because he can just traverse across the stage and play super defensive. It's really hard for Ganon to just catch the little ****. lol I don't really have a preference of ban vs Falco per se, but I usually strike Final Destination, just to eliminate the option of me having to deal with the lasers and no platforms.
 
RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
YvngFlameHoe said:
What should you practice to have a better neutral game? Even tho the sign said "No Nooching"
Click to expand...
When playing against other people, you should focus on their spacings and how much stage control they have, basically, how much room they have to move as compared to you. You also need to space your moves really well when you throw them out, and know when to throw them out.

Practicing neutral is a lot of experience that you have to get with playing others. You have to think while you are in a neutral position and be aware of everything that is going on. Be aware of why you got hit in neutral, be aware of when you get a hit on your opponent in neutral. The more aware you are when you're in neutral, the more you will learn about it. It's as simple as that, theoretically.
 
Endllol

Endllol

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 8, 2014
Messages
9
How useful are pivots on ganon? I don't have to much trouble doing them they don't seem to really pay off and when whiffed seem to just waste an opportunity. Is it worth practicing to become even more consistent when I could be practicing more essential tech such as moonwalking (joke). What techs are most important to learn/perfect? Would anyone just make a list of essential techs to perfect ranking from most to least important? Obviously super consistent perfect wavelands would be first and then ledge techs like invincible edgehogging -> invincible stage recoveries would follow but I'm curious what else I should be working into my practice routines.
 
Zigludo

Zigludo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
206
Location
Southwest Florida (Naples)
@ Endllol Endllol yeah man pivots are definitely important. pivot high-angled ftilt is a very useful/ safe (safe by Ganon standards anyway) option to stuff aerial approches, pivot jab is great when you need to put out a hitbox behind you pronto

if you haven't already practiced your chaingrabs and gotten 100% consistent, spend a little time with THIS GUIDE BY MAGUS420. It's not really feasible to get consistent with the spacies chaignrabs until high% but you can still give it a whirl, and the Sheik CG is insanely useful if you don't plan on switching characters for that MU since it's ridiculously far in Sheik's favor
 
Endllol

Endllol

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 8, 2014
Messages
9
I usually practice my cg when I play against my friend that plays Sheik. Whats the best way to practice them without 20XX, or do I need it do to practice DI mixups and actually getting the computer reliably switch to sheik?
 
X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Endllol said:
How useful are pivots on ganon? I don't have to much trouble doing them they don't seem to really pay off and when whiffed seem to just waste an opportunity. Is it worth practicing to become even more consistent when I could be practicing more essential tech such as moonwalking (joke). What techs are most important to learn/perfect? Would anyone just make a list of essential techs to perfect ranking from most to least important? Obviously super consistent perfect wavelands would be first and then ledge techs like invincible edgehogging -> invincible stage recoveries would follow but I'm curious what else I should be working into my practice routines.
Click to expand...
Order of importance

1. L cancel
2. Wavedash, dash dance, pivots and general ground movement
3. Waveland and platform movement
4. All the ledge techs
5. Wall jump tech
6. Shield dropping
7. Running shield drops
8. Moonwalking

There's other tech to learn that's really important such as shield DI and smash DI, but you can't really practice that stuff on your own. This is the stuff you should learn on your own.

I'd like to also emphasize that I think it's kind of ridiculous that no one ****ing running shield drops with Ganon. I see so many opportunities for it. For example, instead of wavelanding on a bottom platform to jump to imperfect wavelanding on the top paltform to drop through fair/bair on battlefield, you could be so much faster by doing a running shield drop as soon as you hit the top platform. I've been testing it out on all the stages, and it's really good on battlefield. On the other stages, however, it's better to do an imperfect waveland into drop through aerial because your jump from the platforms to the top platform on other stages doesn't no impact land the way it does on battlefield.
 
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RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
I think Ganon's strongest stage is BF because of his ability to no-impact land on and of the platforms, and just the general fact that he is able to do a lot of nice movement tricks on that stage.

Also as a side note, I think if you want to play Ganon vs Sheik because of the CG that Ganon has on Sheik, you might as well just play Sheik dittos and CG in the ditto. Pretty much the same result and range but with a muuuuch better character, obviously. Just my two cents.
 
Coastward

Coastward

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,560
Location
Pumpkin Hill
X WaNtEd X said:
Order of importance

1. L cancel
2. Wavedash, dash dance, pivots and general ground movement
3. Waveland and platform movement
4. All the ledge techs
5. Wall jump tech
6. Shield dropping
7. Running shield drops
8. Moonwalking

There's other tech to learn that's really important such as shield DI and smash DI, but you can't really practice that stuff on your own. This is the stuff you should learn on your own.

I'd like to also emphasize that I think it's kind of ridiculous that no one ****ing running shield drops with Ganon. I see so many opportunities for it. For example, instead of wavelanding on a bottom platform to jump to imperfect wavelanding on the top paltform to drop through fair/bair on battlefield, you could be so much faster by doing a running shield drop as soon as you hit the top platform. I've been testing it out on all the stages, and it's really good on battlefield. On the other stages, however, it's better to do an imperfect waveland into drop through aerial because your jump from the platforms to the top platform on other stages doesn't no impact land the way it does on battlefield.
Click to expand...
shield dropping is wayyyyyyyy more important than wall and ledge techs. you probably assume its not because no one has really been applying them save for a few.

also moonwalks over everything. M.O.E.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
YvngFlameHoe said:
So nobody gon answer my question about getting a better neutral game?
Click to expand...
It's all bait and punish, and control of your character. Having good tech skill is paramount. One missed waveland and your stock is gone. You have to know what distance to maintain from your opponent, which completely depends on his/your options.... and then do things that provoke them to do something punishable, and then try your best to take their stock once they give you an opening. Really tough question that requires a thesis for it to be properly answered.
 
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tm

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
Orah said:
@ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle I think you'd enjoy FoD once you learn sheild dropping, I haven't really yet either but it's on my to do list. I agree with @ Coastward Coastward about it being a good CP against fox because of how small the stage is. I think I remember @Bizzarro Flame saying somewhere how once you grow accustomed to its tendencies it essentially becomes a second YS.
Right now I feel most comfortable on BF and YS but am working on FoD and DL64.
FD is bad for Ganon but I don't hate it. Once I develop a more solid ground game I'd like to think I'd be more comfortable playing there compared to the randomness of PS.
I like the grass stage on PS and neutral stage is okay.
Fire stage has a mini cave of life which can be good for survival and teching the tree can save you sometimes.
Water stage pretty much sucks, oddly placed platforms and windmill seem more like obstacles instead of beings useful to navigate the stage, I like to do crazy angled grounded wizard foots off the windmill but just like the stage, this also sucks.
Hate the rock stage, pit is usually bad for ganon, on the plus side, there's that getup attack gimmick on the cliff, but not a whole lot of room to fight and you can get stuck trying to roll away from the right ledge #Banned
If spaceys weren't so popular this definitely would be banned already and I've even talked to some spaceys who agree.

@ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM I agree about not being able to control space on DL and the survivabiltiy of the stage usually just means i takes a few more edgeguards to get killed. Wavelanding around the platforms seems slower than BF or YS but I probably just need to get used to it.

@ Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir Idk if we have mental blocks, I think it's more of a lack of execution like I know what I have to do against Marth but have not gained the consistency in execution that is needed for victory.

I gotta thank @ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM and @Omni for kind of opening my mind to playing this game differently, playing to learn rather than playing to win and growing as a player.
I lose a lot but I never really get frustrated because it shows me what I need to work on to be better and ever since I focused more on learning rather than winning it was like I instantly started playing smarter. Instead of getting 3 or 4 stocked consistently I'm taking them to final stock situations where I make one fatal error and lose.
I really think that's why I like playing as Ganon, his flaws make it harder to be successful with him. The challenge is invigorating and the struggle makes me stronger. You have to be perfect or you lose there is no middle ground. It's either the penthouse or the outhouse.

I see other players that have played longer than I have playing Sheik or space animals get frustrated and contemplate quitting because they can't get past this so called "mental block". They've grown spoiled in their characters advantages that they haven't been able truly understand the games fundamentals. They keep making the same mistakes and never learn from them because they're characters attributes can overcome these in low level play but when they get to the next level they show their true colors. They want to win now and while I'm not saying they don't work hard for it, in a way, playing a high tier character stunts their growth as a player in the long run. In order to succeed with a low tier character you HAVE to do all the little things right, you HAVE to understand your weaknesses and maximize your strengths. Know what options are available for you and your opponent at any given moment and capitalize. I use to focus so much on the technical aspect of the game but now I feel as if I'm finally starting to understand the fundamental side of the spectrum and bring balance to my playstyle.

I never knew who Ganon was until I played this game.
He maybe the King of Evil but to me atleast in this game, playing as him is almost like choosing to follow the light side of the force.
Not giving in to the dark side temptations like Sheik, Fox, or Falco.
Resisting the urge to win immediately.
Humbly making today's mistakes tomorrow's experience.
Not shying away from adversity.
Showing the ones who have turned from the light what real power is.
I love this game.

Hope everybody has a blessed day.
Click to expand...
Post of the year.
 
X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Coastward said:
shield dropping is wayyyyyyyy more important than wall and ledge techs. you probably assume its not because no one has really been applying them save for a few.

also moonwalks over everything. M.O.E.
Click to expand...
Wall techs make Ganon's recovery like 100x better. And ledge techs are important because you should pretty much be able to put yourself in an advantageous or neural position from the ledge no matter what. And it's also important for edge guarding. I think all those things are more important than shield drops. And this coming from the guy who spent half a year grinding shield drops.
 
X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
The thing about shield dropping is people can space around it. I feel a lot stronger when my ledge tech is on point as opposed to my shield drops.
 
RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
So I did some Fox shining Ganon at the edge of Yoshi's and found some interesting results.

If Fox is at the top of the slant on the side and shines you, Ganon will not land on the ground and you will not be able to FF to grab the ledge. However, if you ASDI down instead, you pretty much auto-grab the ledge. Interesting find. If you're really close to the ledge and get shined though, ASDI alone only lets you touch the stage, so you still have to FF.

So yeah, start ASDing down and away on Yoshi's. You just might grab the ledge automatically haha
 
B

Bwmat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
665
Yeah, I'm leaning towards that as well.

I notice that when I'm playing well and winning, a large part of it is because I never ****ing die by teching the **** out of the ledge + fadeback mindgames + well spaced attacks while recovering to prevent an edgeguard and living to %140+

I find I get that win in a close game when I just turtle up and start playing really carefully and defensively. I've been thinking a good way to practice this would be to, when playing against players much more skilled then you, when on your last stock getting 4-stocked or something, tried playing not to win, but to delay loss. Still approached the opponent, but did so veeeeeeeeeeery safely, spacing and timing things to be frame-perfect, or even not to hit unless the opponent approached a little, trying to keep control of some space for as long as possible, while not actually stalling the game.

I would say the best thing to practice is recovery and general edge tech (endless invincibility by refreshing it, ledgedash, eikeldrop, no impact land, invincible ledgehop uair, etc). The longer you live, the more chances you get to land that crucial hit or grab, and honestly, edgeguarding might be one of ganon's strongest talents.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Locke Robster said:
So I did some Fox shining Ganon at the edge of Yoshi's and found some interesting results.

If Fox is at the top of the slant on the side and shines you, Ganon will not land on the ground and you will not be able to FF to grab the ledge. However, if you ASDI down instead, you pretty much auto-grab the ledge. Interesting find. If you're really close to the ledge and get shined though, ASDI alone only lets you touch the stage, so you still have to FF.

So yeah, start ASDing down and away on Yoshi's. You just might grab the ledge automatically haha
Click to expand...
This is a really good find. So you're saying if I'm still on stage, right? Not if I'm aerial. Just for clarification.

For the record, I think shield dropping is great, but there's no way that it can overcome the usability of wall techs. Wall tech can beat Marth's go to edge guard! How awesome is that? Honestly, if you perfect your wall teching, the only thing that could truly edge guard a wall-hugging ganon is the Eddie spike. This is all theoretical of course, ganon still isn't hard to edge guard... But he's considerably more difficult, as Hulk said.

I love my ledge techs. They're really good for choosing options to get around your opponent's edge pressure. In its simplest form, all you need to learn is RLD, ledge hop --> jab / tilt, and waveland --> buffered roll. One fakes your opponent out, one reverses pressure, and the last gives you center stage... REALLY quickly. You should, of course, not limit yourself to these options, but I think that they're the bare necessities.

Yes, RLD is a necessity. People may call the RLD all flash and a gimmick, but I fully disagree. RLD --> fair is a gimmick, but I'm almost never punished for an empty RLD; in fact, I'm usually able to punish my opponents for a whiffed move / bad positioning when they falsely expect a waveland.
 
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B

Bwmat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
665
ugh don't say that, I can't rld worth ****. I just kill myself (and I do that plenty without)
 
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