X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
The real lesson here is that you should just be grabbing the ledge and invincible uairing to cover the low option and then doing whatever you can to punish them if they go high.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
You guys are gonna wanna watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyaHyJeBtMg
me14k just signed us up for stream for no reason (we both got first seed in our pools) and without my knowledge. The commentators did not know this.
me14k is hilarious. If you guys are unaware, he's a SUPER old school peach who plays like a troll.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyaHyJeBtMg
me14k just signed us up for stream for no reason (we both got first seed in our pools) and without my knowledge. The commentators did not know this.
me14k is hilarious. If you guys are unaware, he's a SUPER old school peach who plays like a troll.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
One time I wizard foot spiked a 10 year old while his dad watched.
at his house when i was also 10
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Happy 4/20 Ganon bros!
My take on each of these OoS options:
Imo as your opponent gets better, wavedash OoS gets worse. It's great for most characters but with ganon's slower jump / landing animations and giant hurtboxes, it's very easy to get hit before it's over.
UpB seems troll but it's actually great. Very underutilized imo.
Shield drop aerials are amazing and everybody should learn them. Shielding on platform is great.
Instant uair is good (one of his fastest attacks OoS, and covers a lot of space, and you can either autocancel it or double jump), but it's unlikely to hit an opponent on the ground even if frame perfect. Good for punishing floaties who misspace an aerial on shield, or to stuff a SH aerial approach.
Full hop is useful for dairing OoS (because dair can be AC'd / jumped out of from a full jump, but not a short hop), but also a big commitment because you generally don't want to be in the air above your opponent. Also it will miss a lot of the time because your opponent isn't tall / in standing animation.
Shield grab is amazing but you have to be good at recognizing when it will work and when it won't. Becoming proficient at shield SDI will help you get a lot more shieldgrabs (and help you escape pressure more in general).
Spot-dodge is iffy imo, it's easily punishable and the animation is longer than a grab. Best used on extremely laggy moves (like falcon sideB if it causes him to miss you), but most of the time you might as well just shield the attack. Also good to use against tether grabs (samus / link / YL). A nice trick is to spotdodge, then hold down on the joystick (to ASDI the opponent's punish into the ground) and punish whatever they hit you with (pseudo crouch cancel).
Ganon's wavedash is 16 frames.
good ****, thanks. stuff like this is really helpful
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Espi
Smash Journeyman
omg ganon mains
Espi
Smash Journeyman
le marth main has arrived. Yeah I'm going to NWM see you there
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
hey guys. currently studying some and a situation that i've pondered has come up.
https://gfycat.com/BigArtisticAlbertosaurus
is this truly the best option in this situation? of course, i'm talking about the immediate fair after the down air.
one thing i'm going to attempt to get from now on in this situation is that i'd like to not go for the fair immediately and rather wait until they try to jump out of the hitstun so that they lose their jump. or maybe there's a better follow up than fair altogether. thoughts?
https://gfycat.com/BigArtisticAlbertosaurus
is this truly the best option in this situation? of course, i'm talking about the immediate fair after the down air.
one thing i'm going to attempt to get from now on in this situation is that i'd like to not go for the fair immediately and rather wait until they try to jump out of the hitstun so that they lose their jump. or maybe there's a better follow up than fair altogether. thoughts?
spider_sense
Smash Champion
I always think fair should be used after dair. That or bair, but it's situational. I never understood why people dair and then dair again, it's extra damage sure, but sending them off the stage is much better imo.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
If you get really familiar with when the hitstun should end, then yeah, you can delay your fair to not come out until just as their about to double jump. Keep in mind that this is a tight window on Fox because he has really fast jump acceleration. You kind of have to start the fair around 14 frames before the hit stun ends, which might be a bit too pre-emptive. It might be better to use upair instead to catch their double jump as that comes out faster and it swings upward, likely catching them wherever they are.
I think stealing a DJ with upair is better than not doing so with fair, as with no DJ, Fox is much easier to edgeguard off stage.
I've thought the same thing myself.
In that particular case, I think first hit nair -> fair would have actually worked (respecting RaynEX's "really good" DI, and just the right amount of stage left to run on). This would have probably sealed the stock here.
I've experimented with a second dair instead, as it does more damage (20% if the first dair was fresh, as opposed to 17% from a fresh fair, or less from a stale one) (for when you aren't confident in setting up an edgeguard). I usually reserve this for lower %s, or when you are above a platform (actually has potential for a follow up, unlike in this particular clip). In the clip here I would definitely not go for it. Even an edgeguard situation that you're unlikely to get a kill off of is better than getting more damage but reseting to neutral imo.
You can also use upB (17% fresh), but it has less knockback than fair, less damage than dair, and gives their jump back, so it's probably never the best option.
And now you get into the less guaranteed stuff.
You can try to outwait the 2nd jump, and I think this would work well on 'bad' players, but not good ones. Even after a double jump, fox / falco still have access to upB, sideB, and airdodge, all of which will avoid your attack if you just try to hit them during their descent (they can also shinestall, but that's terrible in this situation). On top of that, they can also just come down with an aerial, which will outprioritize ganon's fair. An uair leaving them with no double jump is great, but for the amount of extra work it requires leads me to believe that a guaranteed fair that doesn't take their double jump is preferred.
Now what if they don't jump? You better be prepared to hit them with something quick if they get down to some certain height and don't jump. They could make it a techchase situation, but they can also wiggle out / attack before hitting the ground. Catching them with a dsmash before they land would be amazing here, but again it basically requires a read, and they will probably decide to jump out when they don't see you jumping at them to fair. In most cases you'll have to commit to a guess, and most of the time they can escape your punish with shielding / rolling upon landing.
SO, I'm gonna go ahead and say that sticking to a guaranteed hit is preferred unless you are confident in reading your opponent, or that they aren't cognizant of all the mixups they have at their disposal. However if you are a god of timing and hitstun, I suggest fairing at a time that is VERY AMBIGUOUS as to whether or not they are out of stun or not when it hits them. This gives potential to take their double jump (which will completely **** them), but if you are even slightly too late you whiff the punish entirely, so I would only use this in tournament after practicing it a lot. Another thing here that people don't think about is that this aims to hit them at the end of their stun, when they are closest to the ground. This is good because it leaves them with less height (and thus limits their recovery slightly). People will roll their eyes at this but I think you should limit the opponent however possible. You can also try this same thing except fastfalling on top of them with bair.
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tldr; I think you should almost always fair (or nair -> fair if the % and DI is right). Also try hitting them 1 frame after their stun ends so that you catch their jump if they buffered it.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I go for eating their double jump really often... Like waiting it out and then throwing out an up air (up air with no jumps > fair with jumps). I think I'd agree with what tm said though, about it only working on bad players.
Also, Spidey, you're correct about getting fox off stage being better than more percent. But in my case, I'd probably go for another dair because I legit don't feel comfortable edge guarding fox with a double jump on FD. But that's only because I suck at edge guards, so in tournament, I'd probably go for the dair --> tech chase until I'm comfortable with edge guarding.
Also, Spidey, you're correct about getting fox off stage being better than more percent. But in my case, I'd probably go for another dair because I legit don't feel comfortable edge guarding fox with a double jump on FD. But that's only because I suck at edge guards, so in tournament, I'd probably go for the dair --> tech chase until I'm comfortable with edge guarding.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'd just fair him like kage did. Too tempting. But baiting the dj isn't a bad idea at all. We all know free uairs taste great, just depends on their options.
nair > fair may have worked idk.
nair > fair may have worked idk.
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PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
**** FD vs fox, that **** is ********. PS is a way better option, even though it isn't that great. In the end, it's all about your personal preference, though, so whatever feels right to you.
For example, most of the ganons here don't mind FD vs falco, but I can't stand it at all, so I ban the hell out of it.
**** FD vs everyone.
For example, most of the ganons here don't mind FD vs falco, but I can't stand it at all, so I ban the hell out of it.
**** FD vs everyone.
I generally dislike FD, simply due to the lack of platforms and the limited mobility that goes along with that. I feel that this is effect is expanded upon when fighting spacies, while they can just laser while ganon is approaching.
That being said, I ban FD against spacies, and also most of the time against , unless it is better to ban a different stage in that particular matchup. While I don't necessarily hate the stage, it is just unfavorable for ganondorf in most of his matchups, so I end up banning it.
That being said, I ban FD against spacies, and also most of the time against , unless it is better to ban a different stage in that particular matchup. While I don't necessarily hate the stage, it is just unfavorable for ganondorf in most of his matchups, so I end up banning it.
I used to always ban FD (short answer: it's worse, at least if you don't fight on transformations), but I realized that my game was a lot weaker there so I stopped banning and striking in order to work on my weaknesses. But I hate pokemon with a passion and think that it should be illegal. FD sucks, but that's what bans are for. Poke is just ********. You'll have to play on both in a Bo5 anyway, so you might as well get experience on both.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Yessss, tm **** PS. It really should be illegal, if I ever run a tournament, that **** is BANNED! It'd make for interesting stage strikes though... rock paper scissors for who gets to ban 2 stages?
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Coastward
Smash Lord
i have a strong hate towards stadium, i actually despise playing on that stage no matter the character.
FD isn't too bad against fox, you just need to have the most godlike neutral game along with great patience. most of the time i ban it though, the only time i don't is when i'm playing a super super duper aggro fox in which case i ban yoshi's because that **** can actually be a bomb in the face.
i just got a 93% on my physics final so im pretty ****ing pumped right now, i feel like writing paragraphs on paragraphs so let's start discussing some **** guys lmao.
FD isn't too bad against fox, you just need to have the most godlike neutral game along with great patience. most of the time i ban it though, the only time i don't is when i'm playing a super super duper aggro fox in which case i ban yoshi's because that **** can actually be a bomb in the face.
i just got a 93% on my physics final so im pretty ****ing pumped right now, i feel like writing paragraphs on paragraphs so let's start discussing some **** guys lmao.
wut, poke is already not included in striking
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I am such an idiot
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I'm having a hard time believing that Ganon can beat Fox on Dreamland. Fox just has so much space to move around on that stage that neutral is fricking hard to near impossible. I know you survive on there for a long time but damn Ganon isn't able to control space as well there as on BF, YS, or FoD. I'm actually thinking of CPing Fox's to FoD more often because of that high ceiling, as I really dislike dying at early percents off the top on YS.
Coastward
Smash Lord
taking fox to FoD has been my gameplan for the past few months as of recently. i've been performing so well on that stage lately, i think it's a better pick than YS tbh.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
FoD sux. Idk if it's the best counter pick either, but Locke's point about the high ceiling is a good one. It's just those stupid platforms...
It's pretty great vs. falcon, but I'd never go there just because I hate it as a stage.
It's pretty great vs. falcon, but I'd never go there just because I hate it as a stage.
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Coastward
Smash Lord
character advantages > personal dislike
i understand if you don't like playing on a certain stage, but if you have advantages you gotta take em. i honestly think FoD is the best stage to pick against fox right now. i've had pretty bad sets vs falcons on FoD recently which is weird LOL.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I used to think this way too, but what's the point of playing on a stage if you're gonna lose on it because you suck on that stage? Like even if you think it gives you a character advantage, if you do better on battlefield than FoD, even though it's "better" in theory to choose FoD, why would you ever choose it in tournament? That seems silly to me.
I mean, play it in friendlies and stuff just to get acclimated, but if you don't feel comfortable in tournament, I'd say don't do it.
Also, regarding FoD, it screws up edge guards massively. Especially vs. fox / falco, so keep that in mind too when counterpicking there.
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How do you guys deal with mental blocks? I'm really struggling with Marth and have been for quite a while. Anyone have any advice to try and get over this thing?
Duel
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 167
Against Campy Foxes I avoid Dreamland when I can, I would rather go FoD at that point (Assuming I can't go Yoshi's or BF), that way I can keep more pressure on them and they can't just sit back and laser me like an asshole.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Well then you should probably try to practice on the stage more and not blame yourself for not getting comfortable with it. That's on you to get out of your comfort zone for the sake of doing better in tournament. Gravy practices on FoD all the time and it's one of his favorite stages. This excuse you give is really poor.
Playing it in friendlies and in tournament is how you get accustomed to the stage. If there are benefits to choosing the stage over another, then choose it. You can work out how comfortable you are with the stage as long as you are willing to go to that stage and tackle the problem head on. Look to see where the stage might mess you up or what you can take advantage of, and formulate a plan to overcome a problem that you encounter on that stage. Essentially, you just need more experience. Not going to stages out of uncomfortableness is really silly, and will hold you back.
This is an incredibly broad question that I cannot give a specific answer to.
Try to pinpoint what is frustrating for the matchup for you. Where do you struggle? Can you look at your play and see where you mess up vs Marths? Can you look at other top Ganons vs Marth and see something that they are doing that you are not? Have you not explored enough about the possibilities of the matchup? Are you familiar with every possible familiar situation that happens? What parts of the matchups make you afraid? There could be some fear or uncomfortable factor that plays into your mental block.
Basically, you need to break down in detail why you are having trouble with this, and then some up with solutions to the problems that you face. You can ask us for validation of solutions that you come up with, that's a big reason why we're here and this thread exists.
Duel
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 167
I was thinking of going Dk on FD against Fox maybe. He's the only other character I play, even though my DK sucks lol.
yeah I know exactly what it is, and if you watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZmPcR8-tqA (7:15 start) you'll probably be able to figure out what it is in about 15 seconds. I'm way to cautious/hesitant against Marths. Every time I'm standing in neutral I shield. Also I shield when I whiff an attack, or land safely on stage from the air. I think a couple times I even rolled -> drop shield -> shield again.
I'm just way too scared of Marth's sword, so I shield to avoid attacks. If the Marth I was playing in that vid had bothered to grab me at all I probably would have been destroyed. Whenever I go into a match with a Marth thinking not to shield too much, I end up shielding anyway because it's became something subconscious and ingrained into the way I play the MU.
I know in theory what I should and shouldn't be doing in the MU, but I just forget all of it as soon as the match starts.
Ganon / marth is actually one of his better matchups against top/high tiers IMO.
Don't really have any specific advice, but for me it just boils down to avoiding grabs and random jank fsmash.
Instant Uair from shield to punish his fair in shield is great as well.
Don't really have any specific advice, but for me it just boils down to avoiding grabs and random jank fsmash.
Instant Uair from shield to punish his fair in shield is great as well.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
lol you missed my point completely
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
There's no need to be scared. A lot of Marths have the same habits. As long as you understand what Marth needs to do in neutral, you can counter whatever he does. You don't want to get scared into doing dumb things of course, you just need to think and have a gameplan going in. It will take a bit of practice to get past it, but you'll eventually get there if you put effort toward it. I used to have a silly mental block against Puff, now I'm totally fine with the matchup and I know how it works. If I can do it, you can do it.
I probably just need to play more Marths. Hopefully there'll be more than just the 1 at the tournament I'm going to this weekend.