Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

PseudoTurtle

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When I went to Michigan and Boston there were a ton of Ganons playing on TVs. Not sure if its because I was there or there actually is a lot of them.
There are a lot of MI ganons. Duel, minor threat, some others I can't recall. Maybe coast just means slightly more established ganons, like the ones that post here or get on stream more frequently.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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So, a bit off topic, but this is a good practical application for moonwalking in the neutral. Kind of a ****ty moonwalk, but yea. Admittedly, I was just doing it for flash and style (it's ganon dittos- come on), but it had the side effect of baiting out an up air and a jab, which I punished.

I'm not really sure where this would apply in other matchups, but it's something to think about. Maybe bait out a scrubby marth fsmash?
 
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Divinokage

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So, a bit off topic, but this is a good practical application for moonwalking in the neutral. Kind of a ****ty moonwalk, but yea. Admittedly, I was just doing it for flash and style (it's ganon dittos- come on), but it had the side effect of baiting out an up air and a jab, which I punished.

I'm not really sure where this would apply in other matchups, but it's something to think about. Maybe bait out a scrubby marth fsmash?
That wasnt even a punish he just got caught somehow. lol
 
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When I went to Michigan and Boston there were a ton of Ganons playing on TVs. Not sure if its because I was there or there actually is a lot of them.
There are a lot of people with ganon secondaries in Boston. But there are very few ganon mains. There is a guy called crow with a pretty good ganon, though.
 

Endllol

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When using a reverse uair to edgeguard should they be able to sweetspot (say marth or something)? I know I should just grab edge or use a Marth Killer in that example but in the perfect case will the reverse uair work or not. I just want to know if I'm accidentally FF to early or using the move to late and ****ing up my edgeguards.
 

PseudoTurtle

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The reverse up air spike would definitely be able to beat out a marth sweet spot. Perfect against falcon / ganon too.

Here, practice this: go to temple and plug in a second controller. Choose falcon for the ghost controller. On temple, take falcon to that ledge in the middle of the stage (where he won't die if he falls off). Practice your Eddie spikes here, as that's the only move you can hit him off the ledge with. Once you've knocked him off the ledge, that's it!

I say to choose temple because he doesn't die when you tip him off, so the practice is more efficient.
 
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Orah

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Ok so Oos options:

Rolling forward: should be used sparingly and can be punished easily if predicted, I find myself doing this too much cuz I flub up wavedash Oos.

Rolling away: better but can be punished if it's expected.

Wavedash Oos: Great if you're consistent with it, I've been working on wavedash back jab/grab against spacey shield pressure and wavedash forward jab/grab agaisnt Marth. I suppose the key against Falcon must be wavedash back Oos Up angled f-tilt.

Up-b: I don't try it too often, I know it's super situational but I like trolling with it.

Sheild drop aerial: Haven't mastered it yet but as far as what aerials to use. Isn't shield drop upair and bair the best tools because of how fast they come out compared to fair?

Instant Up-air: I try doing this against spaceys and it works occasionally

Full-hop: I doubt its good for getting out of well spaced shield pressure but it can punish a laggy attack on shield. I think fair and dair auto cancel if done right out of a full hop and this can lead to fake outs like full hop aerial dj aerial. Could help with wavelanding on a platform near you too.

Shield grab: I do this too much and should probably stop only time it works usually is when I waveland into shield then grab, standing shield grab imo is a no-no against well spaced pressure.

Spot-dodge- I don't know how good Ganon's is but I should probably try it a little bit more. Does spot-dodge jab work for anyone?

I know Ganon doesn't have a lot of shield options and usually most characters don't want to be in shield because of how limited your options are but shielding required for many of Ganon's match ups.
Ex. Wavedash Oos agaisnt Falco lasers, Sheik needles/grab, Marth f-smash/grab.
I just wondering what works best for yall and I know rolling is really good for ganon but I find myself doing it too much and I'm trying to mix it up more.

Also, does anyone know how many frames Ganon's wavedash is?
 

Glennwood

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Local tourney today. My doubles partner plays Ganon too so heres to the Greudo Guardians sweeping dubs. Wish us luck boys, gotta show em what Ganon can do.

Also what would be some good matches of Ganon teams to watch to get some ideas on various common match ups? Thanks in advance.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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@ Orah Orah
Rolling toward isn't that bad. Bad vs marth unless you feel an fsmash coming. Bad vs falcon. Good vs falco. Good vs fox sometimes.

Rolling away is one of ganon's better options in shield.

Wavedash oos: its too slow for all of the things you listed besides marth. You can also wavedash oos --> jab / maybe grab vs fox up smash. This is better at low percents, up-b is better at high percent

As soon as I practice shield dropping, I'm going to implement it a LOT vs marth. Up tilt? Shield drop bair. Fsmash? Shield drop bair. You get the picture.

Up air: amazing vs marth and falcon nairs. Good vs fox and falco nairs.

Bair: good when your opponent crosses you up, for example a marth nair. Sometimes good vs spacies. Watch your spacing and see if you can avoid the shine and bair will sometimes do the trick.

Full hop fair: good if you read a marth fsmash or up tilt. Good vs falcon sometimes.

Full hop stomp: good vs fast fallers.

Shield grab: underrated. You have to be VERY mindful about when to do it and when not to. You can shield grab marth a lot of the time, you can sometimes shield grab falcon. Wait until after he gentleman's you and then grab. You can grab a poorly timed aerial too.

Spot dodge is ok, kinda slow. If you realize you were baited into a bad roll juuuust after rolling, you can buffer a spot dodge and sometimes spot dodge --> jab works. Example here. Landed 32% instead of most likely getting KO'd.

Ganon's wavedash is slow. I don't know how slow, but it's not the greatest.

Hope this helps a bit, dude. Hell, I hope it helps all of you lol
 
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Bwmat

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Use rolls wisely, they don't get punished as much in dubs. And use roll from ledge when **** is hectic. Pressure the guy edgeguarding your teammate. Good luck lol.
I roll like a madman with ganon, and even more in dubs.

For out of shield, my go-to options are grab and roll (mostly away). I honestly grab more than I should, especially against spacies, but the reward on a grab is good enough to almost make the risk worth it.

spot dodge is garbage, really. I use it when I'm against characters with slow, laggy grabs mostly, as otherwise they can just grab you after the spotdodge, or if I read a laggy move instead of a grab. I use it more than I should.

up-b OOS is actually pretty good IMO if you use it sparingly, and at the right time. Mostly is when a non-spacy crosses up my shield, or, specifically, against fox/falco up-tilting my shield thinking they're safe. It's his only option to punish if they're behind you, unless they're in a bit of lag. It also works well against a variety of dash attacks that cross you up (otherwise just grab)

up-air out of shield is good, but it doesn't really work that well if your opponent is right in your face, it's better if they're trying to space their moves to avoid a shield grab (thing that instantly comes to mind is marth attempting to to space fairs (non-fastfalled, so either fullhop fair, or shorthop non-fastfalled fair to (attempted) second fair), you can usually get a free uair oos on that)

Situationally, I sometimes go for nair OOS, you really want to do it as close as possible to frame-perfect as possible, since it'll only hit (most characters, although there's some it can't, especially if they're crouching) if you do it that low. It actually combos into its second hit against some characters at some percents (usually I see it against falcon/fox at low/mid), and you might even be able to follow up the second hit.

dair is good if you read a spotdodge or grab, or anything with enough cooldown that won't hit you after you jump.

bair can be really good if they're behind you. If done right it comes out really fast, although it can be hard to hit some characters if they're standing too close.
 
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Orah

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@ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle
As far as wavedashing Oos isn't that Ganons only consistent way of approaching Falco's SHL?
Theres power sheilding which I haven't really been too successful at, and there's the L+Z+A power sheild which seemed interesting at first but also difficult to implement and also has had mixed results as far as how useful it is.
 

Coastward

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@ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle
As far as wavedashing Oos isn't that Ganons only consistent way of approaching Falco's SHL?
Theres power sheilding which I haven't really been too successful at, and there's the L+Z+A power sheild which seemed interesting at first but also difficult to implement and also has had mixed results as far as how useful it is.
if you're talking about consistent ways of approaching lasers, you can make powershielding just as consistent as WDOOS, which would basically make it the stronger option. i usually tend to not approach when a falco is laser unless they are spamming it in place, so i think powershield is the superior option.
 

Bwmat

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Yeah, I go for powershields while dash dancing.

I can get it a good portion of the time. Last night I was playing some friendlies, and I played two games in a row in which I did a 2-stock comeback against falco while over 140% as ganon by just powershielding _everything_.

there's always hope as long as you don't screw up, lol.
 
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Bwmat

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man, I wish I had some recordings of yesterday, I was just completely shutting down falco's laser game at times.

I think I went a whole stock without getting hit, powershielding at least like 5, and getting a fair out of one of the powershields.

but really, I think the optimal strategy is, when falco is far away, run at him on the ground, either hopping over (backwards hop is better, thanks skytch) lasers or (power)shielding them. Don't let him just spam them from a distance.

At close range... powershielding is good, but harder since you have less time to react. I usually just roll away and then do... something.
 
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yo can any of you give advice on moonwalking for ganon?
I practiced in slow mo melee or In training where you can slow it down, I practiced doing it where I walked first then dashed the other way and did the moonwalk motion, and when he slide all the way back I dashed again and did the motion again and again til he was constantly moving back
 

Locke Robster

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I was talking with a bunch of GA folk at The Royal Treatment and @ L Linguini came up in conversation. I remember DruggedFox specifically saying that Linguini would fill the holes in his neutral game with crouching. Like, Linguini would bair and then right after whiffing he would have the threat of CC grab be ever-present.

Makes it interesting to think how to play Ganondorf in neutral a little better. DruggedFox still thinks that we're not really developing Ganon as a character, and that 2010 Linguini is the only one that has been really innovative. He did mention though that @ Divinokage Divinokage has been the most iconic Ganon that's currently active though, so that's interesting to hear.

Maybe I should look more at Linguini videos to see what he did in neutral.
 
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Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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@Эикельманн [РУС] I got the guy from Russia in my dorm to translate the sentence under your name. Mind if I ask who you're talking about? :p

also the next tournament I'm going to is probably gonna be next weekend. Gonna be some people from another city coming for the first time for this series and I'm assuming they'll be better than I am and my winning streak will end. Gotta work on Falco and Marth MUs, and hope I don't run into any of the 3 good Sheiks that will be there. @ Coastward Coastward if you want to make the trek out to Peterborough message me on facebook and I'll send you the information.
 

Locke Robster

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So after talking with @Bizzarro Flame about how to use upair to cover spacies side-b and up-b sweetspot attempt, and saying that you shouldn't fast fall it, I now have concrete evidence to show why you shouldn't FF the upair if you want to hit it at its lowest possible trajectory, and that it can also cover the edge of the side platform all the way to below the ledge.

Ganon non-FF upair ledge coverage.png


As you can see here, getting the 16th frame of upair is crucial, as it is the lowest hitbox that can be output from upair. This image above is one of the lowest, if not the lowest possible 16th frame of the move to reach below the ledge. You can even move a bit to the left or right so that you don't risk your hurtbox being hit, so the leniency there in terms of horizontal positioning is rather fair. You'll rarely overshoot or undershoot as long as your foot, when standing, is almost touching the ledge.

Now why to not FF instead of FF: If you jump, and wait until frame 16, 17, or 18, (roughly just as you are starting to fall from reaching the apex of your jump; react to you reaching the apex of your jump to time this right) you will get the 16th frame of upair to land below the ledge, and frame 18 is the perfect frame, as it's what happens in the image above. If you upair on frame 19 of your short hop, you'll only get frame 15, which doesn't go as low. If you upair on frame 15 of your SH, it will still go pretty low, but not exactly below the edge.

If you DO fast fall: You have to start upairing on frame 9 or 10 of your jump, and then start fast falling on frame 7 of your upair, you will get frame 16, but it won't be as low. In fact, if you're even slightly off with the FF timing, you'll end up getting the horrid frame 15 that isn't good a lot more often than you would if you didn't fast fall.

So all in all, not fast falling gives you a 3 frame leniency at LEAST to get frame 16 and go below the ledge.

If you Fast Fall, you're at a much higher risk of falling too quickly and getting frame 15 instead of frame 16.

For a visual cue on when to upair (since you won't need to time the FF because you're not doing it) on Battlefield, just look to upair when coming down so that at the beginning of the upair, your leg alligns with the side platform on BF.

For Yoshi's Story, it's the same relative thing as BF, but the really cool thing is the beginning of your upair can cover all the way to the end of the platform on YS, so you can wait until Fox up-bs at a high angle and hit him on the way down, even if he's about to land on the platform, even just staying in the same position you'll still hit him haha. Yoshi's too good.

For Dreamland, it's just a bit below the platform.

For Pokemon Stadium, it's also just slightly below the platform, but not as much as on Dreamland.

For FoD and FD, you'll just have to just the apex of your jump as a visual cue.
 

PseudoTurtle

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Yea, but... is it really that hard to get it frame perfect? It's a total of a 4 button imput, and a slow one at that. You're stating the safer option, but what if you're in a crunch?

Tipman always fast fell and I usually defer to him when it comes to the up air spike lol.

Where you are correct, however, is when fox / falco don't sweetspot, but you still want that spike. But, to be honest, I usually just bair here. Much easier, just as effective.
 

Locke Robster

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Yea, but... is it really that hard to get it frame perfect? It's a total of a 4 button imput, and a slow one at that. You're stating the safer option, but what if you're in a crunch?

Tipman always fast fell and I usually defer to him when it comes to the up air spike lol.

Where you are correct, however, is when fox / falco don't sweetspot, but you still want that spike. But, to be honest, I usually just bair here. Much easier, just as effective.
You could probably just get really lazy and only ever use upair to edgeguard in friendlies and really try to get the timing down. Of course, like you said, if you're in a pinch and need to be a bit faster, go ahead and fast fall. But if you want to be accurate, and have the time to time it, then you should probably not FF it.
 

Locke Robster

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What about ledge hop uair? Does the hitbox of that resemble the frame 16 image you posted?
Ganon ledge-hop upair to cover the ledge.png


Looks pretty close to it. This was achieved by letting go of the ledge for 2 frames, not FFing, and double jumping and holding forward, and then you upair on frame 6, 7, or 8 of your double jump to get it below the ledge and still be intangible. It takes me roughly 6-8 frames just to move my finger from the Y button to the c-stick.
 
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