Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Von Klavier]

Style and disrespect

 

[Zigludo]

bizzJizz

 

[Divinokage]

Thoughts about Armada's Peach now:

1) Camping under the end of the platform is amazing against Ganondorf. So I couldn't waveland off the top platform and b-air him. I should have just been patient and played the ground game.
2) Throws moderate amount of turnips. I should have caught a lot more and used them better.
3) Armada edgeguards Ganondorf really well especially with his turnips
4) His punishes are better than my punishes
5) Dreamland is a big no-no. Thought he was going to stay Fox before I banned Pokemon Stadium

I still got a long way to go. Thank you all for your support.

Dream Land is fine, just avoid FD and maybe FoD. You really had to play more patient indeed and you kinda have to play the mixup game on the ground a lot of the times. It's difficult to win it though because she has faster moves/safer moves up close. You gotta not let him pull turnips also, i dont think theres any reason to let Peach her space at all. Make her do moves up close then start a juggle setup. =)

 

[Yort]

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao... stoned, slightly amused, or unparalleled indifference?

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Dream Land is fine, just avoid FD and maybe FoD. You really had to play more patient indeed and you kinda have to play the mixup game on the ground a lot of the times. It's difficult to win it though because she has faster moves/safer moves up close. You gotta not let him pull turnips also, i dont think theres any reason to let Peach her space at all. Make her do moves up close then start a juggle setup. =)

Sounds good! Thanks for the advice, it's just hard to play the risk/reward game when Peach has the same amount or even more punish than Ganondorf. I just need a lot more peach experience.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

bizz****

The "I just lost to Ganon" face lol

 

[tm]

Thoughts about Armada's Peach now:

1) Camping under the end of the platform is amazing against Ganondorf. So I couldn't waveland off the top platform and b-air him. I should have just been patient and played the ground game.
2) Throws moderate amount of turnips. I should have caught a lot more and used them better.
3) Armada edgeguards Ganondorf really well especially with his turnips
4) His punishes are better than my punishes
5) Dreamland is a big no-no. Thought he was going to stay Fox before I banned Pokemon Stadium

I still got a long way to go. Thank you all for your support.

Yeah the neutral game is so tough when a peach plays like that. Gotta bait them out of it, or get a turnip and use it to find your way in, or just straight read what they're gonna do (risky).
I still think dreamland isn't much worse than other stages though.

 

[Bwmat]

peach is a hard matchup, those damn turnips & edgeguards.

gotta get her up in the air and juggle her.

 

[Divinokage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXGZ0hlegA I'd take any critique if you guys can. I know I ****ed up in a few areas but anything else you can spot is helpful. That's the GF set Me vs Vwins at BUST 2.. already up!

 

[Bwmat]

That is an amazing set. Good job Kage.

Those powershield jabs were amazing, I need to get on this ****.

edit: lol I just realized that makes it sound like you won lol, but good job anyway, that peach edgeguarding is totally broken.

Also, I somehow missed the powershield -> down smash? Was it in this set?

 

[Divinokage]

That is an amazing set. Good job Kage.

Those powershield jabs were amazing, I need to get on this ****.

edit: lol I just realized that makes it sound like you won lol, but good job anyway, that peach edgeguarding is totally broken.

Also, I somehow missed the powershield -> down smash? Was it in this set?

http://gfycat.com/GreenDamagedAldabratortoise No it wasn't it was vs Mafia.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i can't stress enough how much more you guys need to grab vs peach. especially kage and bizz. that's all i've noticed recently. grabs are amazing vs peach

 

[-ACE-]

Crazy dizz almost beat vwins. Those IC's are getting good fast.

 

[Coastward]

kreygasm

http://gfycat.com/ShinyBonyAsiaticlesserfreshwaterclam

 

[Superspright]

Grabbing Peach is the matchup. If you don't land grabs you will lose. You need to sneak them in with wavelands, but it's tricky. Kage knows how to do it pretty well. He knows when to use tomahawks against his opponents, or waveland grab. Those two have to be mixed up pretty well or he just gets clobbered. The punishes on Peach are pretty real from grab. Anything else is a guess.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Be willing to downthrow upsmash her even if it means a trade possibly. Hit her with that move is devastating, especially if she doesn't DI the downthrow properly.

 

[Superspright]

It's also good against Jigglypuff at 55% even with good DI I think...not totally sure on that. But it kills on BF, Yoshi's, and PS. AFAIK.

 

[-ACE-]

Maybe a lil more than 55% but def legit.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea @ Divinokage , that was a really well-played set. I suck vs. peach, so my critique may not be what you're looking for, but there is one thing that I did notice- your recovery, while good, could be improved. When peach does that dair, you were always DIing up and in, which is a free nair / fair 99% of the time.

Next time, just DI down. It'll hit you lower with no follow up and when you kinda hug the stage and sweetspot, there's not much peach can actually do to edge guard other than dair (reset the recovery situation) or dsmash (EZ tech). I guess bair would work too, but that's not too hard to tech either.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I think that if you play well, the neural game is definitely in Ganon's favor. Catching turnips is pretty easy, your moves generally out range her, and you can move around faster.

To me, it seems like the punish game is what makes this matchup tough. Sure, grab leads into some follow-ups. But unless you get a nair off and she DIs in, you're only going up get one aerial off. You need to uair her and then stop her from getting down with uair juggles. It's basically winning the neural game from an advantageous position over and over. And once you get her offstage, you have no guarantee you'll even edgeguard her

Meanwhile, peach can easily get 40+% off you from a single grab or nair. And if she gets you offstage, you're either dead or you're going to eat another 40+%. So you could be outplaying peach an entire stock and then just die off one punish from her.

All in all, i'm not as optimistic about this matchup as I used to be. Unless you have godlike DI, you need to beat like four times as much as she beats you in neutral. I'm not sure trades are very good in this matchup anymore. You have to consistently beat her in the neural. Fortunately, you have the tools to do it, but it's still super tough to have to outplay her that much more.

 

[-ACE-]

kreygasm

http://gfycat.com/ShinyBonyAsiaticlesserfreshwaterclam

What match is that from?

 

[Coastward]

What match is that from?

dont know, found it on 4chan.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I think next time I play a Puff in tournament, I might start CPing to PS just because of that low ceiling and down-throw upsmash killing at like 55% even with good DI is bruuutal.

Funny how Link has a much easier time vs Peach than Ganon does, at least in neutral. Link has a bit of trouble killing Peach, but everything that works on Ganon doesn't usually work on Link, interestingly enough.

Peach on the ground isn't hard to deal with, at least in theory. Her only good quick move that has range is her dash attack, so if you bait that out, you can run in, make it look like you're gonna grab her, and stomp her spot-dodge dsmash attempt.

What match is that from?

Ariquenuubs combo video. Literally the last clip before the credits.

I still think Devour I and II were amazing Ganon combo videos. There needs to be another one like that, but with actual good editing and solid music choice. Incoming Run the Jewels. lol

 

[Superspright]

Our dash attack for the first few active frames is big enough to counter her own (it's quite massive). Don't be afraid to use this in the neutral sometimes to get her above you or on a platform. It's good in a few situations when you get the read, but Peach is most likely to use a combination of grab, nair, or dash attack. You can beat 2/3's of them with dash attack if you do it right.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Downward angled f-tilt is the best for covering the edge imo. D-tilt works too but is a tiny bit slower and has more wind down lag in case they do something differently, while the f-tilt gets the job done if it connects while being more flexible and easier to use by reacting to seeing a forward b starting up.

What do you guys think about this now? I see a lot more dtilts these days. What characters and situations should dtilt be used as opposed to ftilt?

JC shines are able to hit you though if you simply try to shieldgrab the shine normally. Holding away helps here in two ways (I forgot to mention this before). One is if you do happen to get hit by a shine, they'll be very unlikely to get a good combo off of it in that situation. 2nd is that by holding away, your shield ASDI will almost always put you out of range of any JC shines they may do after the 1st (this only applies to Falco because his shine has crap range), and you'll grab them.

What do I hold away with? The c-stick? How do I practice doing this without the 20xx? I went to onnet and had the cars run into me and tried out holding down the c stick and the control stick as the cars hit my shield, but I didn't notice a difference between how I moved in my shield when doing nothing, which lead me to believe I'm doing it wrong. That one car comes in too fast for me to be holding the cstick away, I guess.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Our dash attack for the first few active frames is big enough to counter her own (it's quite massive). Don't be afraid to use this in the neutral sometimes to get her above you or on a platform. It's good in a few situations when you get the read, but Peach is most likely to use a combination of grab, nair, or dash attack. You can beat 2/3's of them with dash attack if you do it right.

Hmm. This is interesting. So if I believe that Peach isn't going to grab, it's safe to assume that I can hit her with the first part of dash attack and be able to get away with it? Putting her in the air that way might actually be useful. I would mostly be afraid of CC dsmash in this case, but maybe I can buffer a jump out of shield or something.

@ X WaNtEd X I believe He's talking about holding away using the control stick, not the c-stick. Tilting your shield away also does ASDI, so there ya go.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

@ X WaNtEd X I believe He's talking about holding away using the control stick, not the c-stick. Tilting your shield away also does ASDI, so there ya go.

But wouldn't that make it much easier for you to get shield poked?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh yeah, have you guys seen these:

Falcon oos

Sheik oos

Seems like the best places to be when pressuring Falcon's shield are crouching in front of him, or behind him. And against Sheik it's behind her crouching, or in front of her kind of far away.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

But wouldn't that make it much easier for you to get shield poked?

In a way, yeah you're a bit more susceptible to being poked, but I think as long as the hitbox of the move hits your shield and not exclusively your hurtbox, it won't poke. I believe a shield poke occurs when the hitbox and the hurtbox of the person shielding are the only bubbles overlapping or collide. I think Ganon dair is able to shield poke a standing full shield Fox or Falco because the game reads the bottom hitbox of Ganon's dair first since it's the first hitbox programmed into that move, and since it reads that bottom hitbox first, it just takes that one bubble into account, and that can be just enough to clip the space animal's foot and poke. That's my theory based off of what I saw in Kadano's videos, as I haven't actually tested it myself.

 

[Linguini]

People need to ASDI cc grab peaches double slap nair pressure more. You gotta be careful with it, but it works just like against falco/fox.

 

[Zigludo]

Searching desperately for the clip of the Ganon ditto on Yoshi's where someone gets hit by jab>dtilt>jab>dtilt thanks to awful DI. I know it was someone in this thread

 

[Zigludo]

Oh yeah, have you guys seen these:

Falcon oos

Sheik oos

Seems like the best places to be when pressuring Falcon's shield are crouching in front of him, or behind him. And against Sheik it's behind her crouching, or in front of her kind of far away.

I don't believe crouching in front of Cap helps your shield pressure very much unless your name is Sheik. pretty sure he can. standing shieldgrab a crouching Ganon

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I don't believe crouching in front of Cap helps your shield pressure very much unless your name is Sheik. pretty sure he can. standing shieldgrab a crouching Ganon

I meant crouch outside of his shieldgrab range. It looks like he doesn't really have anything he can hit you with oos at that range, and you can still dtilt, jab, or ftilt him from the crouch.

 

[Divinokage]

Hmm I thought for sure I was SDIing downwards on those Peach dairs, maybe I was mistiming them. Maybe the new thing to do is to SDI towards the wall so maybe you can actually tech into aerial to push Peach away?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

seriously just hold down and you won't get ****ed up by it.

 

[Divinokage]

seriously just hold down and you won't get ****ed up by it.

But then the edgeguard continues usually, if i go too low she can just grab the edge but if I go too high then im off stage and thats gg. Its really hard to bait the nair near the wall.

 

[Superspright]

Hmm. This is interesting. So if I believe that Peach isn't going to grab, it's safe to assume that I can hit her with the first part of dash attack and be able to get away with it? Putting her in the air that way might actually be useful. I would mostly be afraid of CC dsmash in this case, but maybe I can buffer a jump out of shield or something.

@ X WaNtEd X I believe He's talking about holding away using the control stick, not the c-stick. Tilting your shield away also does ASDI, so there ya go.

I just buffer a tech if I screw it up and get dsmashed and tech roll past her. I pick really weird options in that match-up because it's jank.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Maybe the new thing to do is to SDI towards the wall so maybe you can actually tech into aerial to push Peach away?

That sounds farfetched, but really good if it actually works. How far can you move yourself from SDIing a single hit of the dair? Out of nair range?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How did this platform cancel happen?