Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I haven't seen you beat Pork, maybe Lamb. Maybe it was the way it was tenderized?

You won't see anything ever because you don't go anywhere. Yeah, I beat Elam 2-0 in tournament, but lost to Clay 2-0 when we played. Those results are pretty moot. Two players aren't the majority. Rather, Clay is pretty much the only active good player in your region now.

 

[-ACE-]

Damn shots fired at your own state. I'd at least get wins on blea, clay, and zidane before dissing sfl. Good luck.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Not exactly trying to diss SFL. Just trying at an aggressive way of coaxing Jason into attending events more. Watch it work!

Zidane doesn't even attend very many SFL events, and we're lucky to see Blea come to Orlando once in a blue moon. They don't count as active in my book.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

oh, also

my life is basically complete at this point. now all i need to do is have kage say the same, and i'll have collected all of the ganondorf cards.

 

[-ACE-]

Ian you are the best Ganon. If blea is inactive to you, so is kage. Congrats! Lmfaooooo

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Ian you are the best Ganon. If blea is inactive to you, so is kage. Congrats! Lmfaooooo

but kage is inactive. he doesn't leave quebec anymore, and hasn't for a while.

bizz is definitely the best ganondorf right now, at this very moment.

when i say inactive, i mean doesn't travel.

 

[Renth]

Linguini just agreed to team with me at the next Gainesville event.

Due to the fact no one ever records anything and since I can never seem to get Emillio to come out and play. I will be bringing a recording set up with me.


edit: Along with the talks of Ganondorf players with potential

I feel like @ G. Vice had the best ground game out of any Ganondorf main I had played in quite some time. His unique grounded style mixed with a strong aerial punish game was very impressive.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

hell yeah, that's some good news for sure. really hope he actually comes out.

 

[Moy]

Big House was a ****ing blast. SOs to Eikelmann, Pseudo, n0ne, Jiggles, and Moy for our games.

I don't even think we played man. I was just watching everyone else. But good stuff vs zanguzen, was definitely cheering you on after giving turtle some encouragement in his pool.

I should have gotten more friendlies in though. It always seemed like everyone was fiending to grab the first setup they found.

Maybe I was just too nervous to ask those better than me for friendlies. I was going to try and talk to Bizzarro, for example, but he always seemed really focused or was talking to someone else. I didn't see him at all on Sunday.

I did talk to @ Эикельманн [РУС] a bit on the stairs leading down to the lobby, but idk if he remembers that.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I did talk to @ Эикельманн [РУС] a bit on the stairs leading down to the lobby, but idk if he remembers that.

Of course I do! Why wouldn't I? I'm really glad you did

 

[Moy]

Of course I do! Why wouldn't I? I'm really glad you did

Oh, sorry man. Didn't wanna come across as challenging your memory. But yeah, double Ganon was doing work. Did Kels + Vro knock you guys out? I heard it went to game 3.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Oh, sorry man. Didn't wanna come across as challenging your memory. But yeah, double Ganon was doing work. Did Kels + Vro knock you guys out? I heard it went to game 3.

yeah =[ we absolutely should've won, but whatever. i really really hope we can team again at another national. i've never had more fun playing smash in my life than when i did teams with him. it was so amazing!!! @_@

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ Renth YES. Please get some videos of you and linguini bopping some heads. I haven't seen anything from linguini since that video a year ago of him ****ing shiz up lmao. And I always like to see your slippery ass ganon too... we still have to play, man. You're one of the few ganons I haven't played.

Yo, Idk why you tagged G. Vice hahaha, that dude is so inactive, I doubt he even watches smash vids or keeps up in any other way at all. He was tight though. Not sure what you mean by grounded style though? I actually thought he used quite a few areals. I could never figure out what he was gonna do next or why the weird **** he did all the time worked as well as it did. He has one of my all time favorite ganons though. Shame he quit out.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

yeah. we could really use his skills these days. would be nice to have another top ganondorf out there.

ideally, i wish g vice, linguini, st patrick, tipman, whatisfear, and mr brandandorf would be super active again. if they were all active again...just think about it. ganondorf would be absolutely on the map, no questions asked.

 

[tm]

Also, di captain falcon combos down and away not up.

Yeah I do that. Still nair -> grab -> uthrow -> uair -> whatever. I feel like nair -> grab at low %s isn't a true combo but I try to buffer roll and never get out of it.

Also what should you do when falcon dthrows you at ledge? Sounds like a free knee unless you DI away, in which case he can just jump off weak knee -> uair you. Am I missing something?

does it take 10 seconds? that question i asked two posts ago wasn't just rhetorical, i'm legitimately curious as to why i should learn chaingrabbing. it seems to me that you need to be able to have inhuman reflexes to be able to react to all the possible space animal di long enough to get them to a percent high enough for a guaranteed followup that would put them offstage or kill unless you started the chaingrab at a higher percent. so it sounds like you're taking a bigger risk going for a chaingrab for a long time because if you mess up all you get is the percent you buillt up from it already and possibly a nair to the face.

so i guess my real question is this. is it a reasonable goal to learn the chaingrab well enough to never mess up? it looks almost impossible and i don’t think i would ever try to use it in a set unless i was that proficient at it. it just doesn’t seem worth it otherwise. i’m hoping someone here will spill enough knowledge to convince me otherwise, but based on my experience and what i’ve read so far that’s where i stand.

It doesn't require godlike reaction speed to perform the CG (at least on falco), it just takes a lot of practice. Plus, no one says that you have to do it from the minimum possible %. If you can even do it from 90 to guarantee death, that's a plus. Techchasing is extremely fallible, but perfect CGing is not, so by passing it up you're passing up free kills.

actually idk about you, but i beat new people and do better against previous losses at every tournament i attend. I was a forward air away from taking a game off of hbox in our tournament set, and i've never played HugS in a serious tournament setting before. beating moose was a legitimately good win, and you can ask any midwest player that knows their **** about that. i beat carroll, darrel, vish, nmw, duck, and plenty of other good people in money matches after the tournament ended for me. my sets with zanguzen and kalamazhu resulted in a loss, 2-1, but they were both new experiences and were a good display of what ganondorf is capable of; that's equal to success in my eyes.

That's a lot of good **** dude. Nice!

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Tm, falcon is one of the few matchups I don't suck at. If he grabs you near the ledge, DI out for sure. Pretty sure the weak knee isn't a true combo and you can double jump or uair out of it. Obviously, this is risky, but you do have options... Rock paper scissors here.

Try crouch cancelling the nair. It is a true combo at low percents, but you can crouch cancel at the percent that it true combos, so you avoid it every time that it could potentially work by just ccing.

Don't get caught in the air vs falcon. The spacing and situations in which you can throw out safe areals are weird and hard to explain... But uair is god like in this matchup because it beats out the knee and the nair when you use it correctly. Watch linguini vs darkrain on fd and take note of when linguini throws out the uair. Idk its hard to explain.

One thing I've noticed about your play is that you're extremely smart and have a very intelligent playstyle. Obviously, this is a good thing, but IMO, you have to be quick to beat falcon and I'd say you lack a little bit in speed, so definitely work on that.

 

[tm]

Tm, falcon is one of the few matchups I don't suck at. If he grabs you near the ledge, DI out for sure. Pretty sure the weak knee isn't a true combo and you can double jump or uair out of it. Obviously, this is risky, but you do have options... Rock paper scissors here.

Try crouch cancelling the nair. It is a true combo at low percents, but you can crouch cancel at the percent that it true combos, so you avoid it every time that it could potentially work by just ccing.

Don't get caught in the air vs falcon. The spacing and situations in which you can throw out safe areals are weird and hard to explain... But uair is god like in this matchup because it beats out the knee and the nair when you use it correctly. Watch linguini vs darkrain on fd and take note of when linguini throws out the uair. Idk its hard to explain.

One thing I've noticed about your play is that you're extremely smart and have a very intelligent playstyle. Obviously, this is a good thing, but IMO, you have to be quick to beat falcon and I'd say you lack a little bit in speed, so definitely work on that.

I've suspected that as well. I think I need to work more on REACTING to my opponents options in neutral (and suspecting certain ones by analyzing them) and doing so quickly, rather than what I do which is basically choose options that cover some stuff and *probably* won't get punished by them. Which obviously won't always work as colbol so graciously punished me for.

But yeah, thanks for the advice dude.

 

[Divinokage]

****ing guys.. Alright I'll just make you remember how strong i really am.

 

[-ACE-]

TM that is a great mindset. Almost every move you throw out in the neutral game that doesn't hit your opponent (or his shield) should be an attempt at baiting them imo. If you mindlessly spam a move, you've given them free time/space and have temporarily forfeited the small amount of control you have in the neutral game (As Ganon, simply due to the general speed disadvantage vs popular characters, you already have less control over how and when exchanges take place than does your opponent usually). One missed ftilt (even jab vs faster chars) and you're being pressured, nuff said.

Kage, do it! You always impress.

 

[-ACE-]

Also you can CC falcon's nair at ANY%, the first hit has absolutely no kb (knockback) growth.

 

[Coastward]

after this tournament, i realized how **** i am and how **** my region is.

gonna grind out everything i ****ed up last weekend and make sure i can be as consistent as i possibly can. i want the title of best ganondorf, and i will ****ing get it.

that double ganon teams match tho @Bizzarro Flame @ Эикельманн [РУС] @ PseudoTurtle

 

[Divinokage]

As long as I exist, you will never get it!!! You have to go beyond the human capabilities.

 

[-ACE-]

LMFAO is that isn't classic Kage I don't know what is.

 

[Superspright]

@xwantedx I've been saying this for a while: Do the CG with c-stick + the d-stick so you don't need to roll the directional stick around. This way you just have to time the inputs since it's not a compound action--it's discrete. This is how I dribble Fox/Falco like I'm in the NBA. He's right you require near inhuman reaction times at the low parts of the CG, but if you're feeling good you can twitch react even at the lower ends of the CG. You just have to turn your brain off and respond to the stimuli instead of predicting like we normally do in the neutral. Good luck.

 

[-ACE-]

So Renth and I will be streaming tomorrow around 12pm or close after, feel free to tune in for Ganon dittos, random friendlies, shenanigans, tomfoolery, and critical analysis of BH4 matches/sets. Suggestions are welcome.

Link is twitch.tv/lunacy_renth

 

[Renth]

Eastern time

 

[G. Vice]

Renth facebooked messaged me this link, I had almost forgot it existed. It's a shame I wasn't ever able to travel for melee. I haven't personally played in months. I recently got married, and I'm thinking about starting a family and stuff, so there is not much time for me to competitively play. I was never able to travel really due to church services on Sunday mornings, but I did love the game. I hit my peak in 2011-2012, and sadly didn't get to play some really good Ganons in Florida until I was washed up in late 2013. But I had a blast, and I from time to time watch vids. If I ever play, it'd be for fun. But such is life. I'm glad I left an impact on the Ganon community somewhat, and I still think that though you guys are probably all better than me, that my combo vids are at least cooler 8)

 

[-ACE-]

We'll miss you Zane!! I will call you if I'm ever in Arkansas again!

Also, congrats!!

 

[G. Vice]

Yeah, if anyone ever comes through Arkansas and I'm off I'd love to play still. I just can't travel for it. Alot of my Ganon is still on reserve, and I think I'd be decent enough to turn just about any head a little these days. Nothin' too fancy though. I need some of you new flashy Ganon guys to post some vids up.

Thanks man! Things are going well so far, fixing to be in a master's program for anesthesia. Busy times, maybe one day I can play more again.

 

[GanonMaster]

Yo, why would you take up falcon or peach for sheik? Why not jiggs or ICs or something like that? Those are actually bad matchups for sheik. Ask trail about the ICs secondary, it's a pretty decent complement to ganon

well, Falcon and Peach are my second best characters, and both have some really nasty combos on Sheik. And Kage knows whats up

also, I cannot play Puff and ICs at all, they don't fit my playstyle at all lol.

Does Ganon have anything decent on Sheik except Crouch Cancel and CG? the CG is pretty easy, but it is so hard to grab her since she can crouch under both grab and jab

(This is low/mid level mu we're talking about, just so you know)

 

[Superspright]

Nope. Everything in the air she does faster/better. On the ground same deal. Her CG is even easier...and she has projectiles. This is a matchup against a giant basically. You need to capitalize on everything extremely hard because opportunities are rare if not absent and have to be made. Good luck. The CG is very easy for her, but don't get caught CCing too much or you'll just get grabbed.

 

[GanonMaster]

that's exactly how it feel like lol. the matches when my punishgame is very good I have a chance, but usually you just get ****ed upu.

 

[-ACE-]

When you have 0% damage vs sheik, protect it as long as possible. This is the only time you get a freebie, where tilts don't give her guaranteed follow-ups, and you can escape the chaingrab 99% of the time (imo) and reset neutral game. When you get grabbed, mash out if she's dumb enough to pummel. On dthrow, DI away (ASDI away) and begin holding down. After ASDI registers, your regular/directional DI can influence your position ever so slightly (similar to survival DI'ing a hit and immediately holding toward the stage). Don't quote me as I'm not 100% sure, but I think you can tech a frame earlier. I've used this for years against sheiks of all levels with success. Once Ganon is at 6-8% you can count on getting regrabbed every time, so your goal is to sneak in a grab before receiving damage and get ahead. Yes, this is hard, and you have to be MONEY on the cg, but that is the goal. Once you have some damage, no more freebies. And SDI EVERY HIT she lands on you. F*ck that jab to grab nonsense.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

G. Vice! Congrats!

And, guys, I'm taking up jiggs vs sheik. **** ganon sheik lol, that **** is ********.

 

[tm]

This is how I see the sheik MU:
if she is at low %, you have 2 setups into death (dair->grab, and grab)
when you are at low %, CC her dash attack = death for her
jab her grab, if she shields at least you can roll away without being grabbed (maybe not if they are perfect, but in my experience)

If you can get her to shield a lot (usually what people do vs ganon), then it's time to catch them off guard with a grab.

Edgeguarding is actually easy vs her, unlike some chars

And she'll kill you off grab at any % (or should). Teching her fairs into the ground at high % is very useful, and so is teching the stage upon recovery (so she should basically always kill you from offstage). DI bair and fair perpendicular; it's very hard because the low angle of knockback for both but every attempt at coming back is a chance to change the entire match. Watch out for dsmash at the ledge because if you walljumptech it, it will just hit you again and probably kill you. I think that if you just walltech it, fall a little bit then upB, you might be able to avoid the other hits (but it's probably too slow to grab her while she's in lag). I will have to experiment with this.

In that MU basically 1 punish = 1 stock for both players, so play careful and choose your openings wisely, then once they are nervous ("I can't be losing to a Ganondorf!") you punish their ****ty mistakes

 

[Superspright]

To add to TM's post about the wall-tech. Ganondorf has more invincibility frames than anyone off of a wall-tech (I believe 14 versus 7 for everyone else IIRC) so long he doesn't use an action (this removes the invincibility). You can probably avoid the reactive dsmash because of this peculiar nuance that only Ganondorf has. Wall-tech may not have that, but if it's the same then I'd exploit it with good timing and using the 13th frame of UP-B to snag her legs as she uses dsmash. This is tricky as hell though. And she'd likely go off-stage anyway to deal with him or use needles safely. I really hate fighting against Sheiks.

Tech rolling is super important in this match-up for survival against rising fairs on platforms since she won't usually have enough time to come down and punish you.

 

[Divinokage]

G. Vice! Congrats!

And, guys, I'm taking up jiggs vs sheik. **** ganon sheik lol, that **** is ********.

Agreed, the only stage you can really beat a top Sheik on would be Yoshi's a lot more consistently anyway. (In my experience)

 

[Coastward]

hey kage, quick question.

how do you find more ways to improve your play once you have everything else developed well? (MU knowledge, character movement, etc.)

 

[-ACE-]

Walltech bair is legit on sheik's dsmash until she hits you with the first hitbox of it, in which case the last hit gets you. Regular tech to up-B always hits, but if she's at low% she'll get back to the ledge in time to KO you for free. The only way I've ever found to get away from this is regular tech + immediate fastfall, and up-b so that you are grabbing the ledge just as the dsmash ends. STILL not a cure-all method imo but I've had it work a couple of times.

 

[Divinokage]

hey kage, quick question.

how do you find more ways to improve your play once you have everything else developed well? (MU knowledge, character movement, etc.)

Then the next level would be to stop worrying about yourself so much and focus on your opponent a lot more. Find people's habits after you perform a move or try to see what they want to do if they are cornered or in the middle of the stage. Everyone has patterns which means you should already know how to punish every single move in the game with every move. You have to know exactly what Fair can punish and what it sucks against. Meaning that I personally practiced these things A LOT, like telling my friend to do Fox SH nair only then FH nair then DJ nair. All different timings then I tried to apply like WD back grab, CC jab, dash away pivot ftilt or jab, back jump Fair so eventually i know exactly how to do it, it was just a matter of doing it in the heat of the moment which was much harder obviously. But then that's where the habits come in. You can see it when they jump after doing it so many times, i dont really have to commit to anything, i just need to be spaced correctly so i do not get hit.

So for habits, well it was a combination of all that training + knowing exactly what they want. Like at "that" spacing, do they like to jump and Nair/Bair? Do they like to DD? Laser? Go on platforms? Shield? Theres not that many options, it's all about where they are. When they are cornered, its highly likely they will take defensive options.. in the middle they will likely try to bait you with a dashdance then attack you. Knowing that, I can bait them instead and make them whiff attacks.. then it would be my turn to gain the middle stage.