Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

bro, the losses we (bizz and i) suffered are losses that you could've had as well. i ended up losing to hungrybox round 2 and hugs in losers semis. this tournament was seriously hard.

That doesn't matter. No Ganon in top 32!!!

 

[Renth]

We all play Ganondorf for the attention, nobody goes out of their way to practice their tech consistently. We all suicide on wave lands and tournament winner constantly. Not a single one of us can chain grab space animals and we rely way too much on movement gimmicks, which again we still mess up constantly.

It's time to practice your punish game, if you aren't getting max out come in each opportunity then don't play Ganondorf. Getting an opening is hard enough and if you piss it away then the match is lost.

All of us need to lose our attitudes about being fast and learn how to get smart. We all have been writing guides, helping each other grow but none of us are reaping the rewards of the potential we all have.

It's just disheartening, no one ever has good news. It's always hey guys I lost to the same people I always do. Accept it until the next event where we lose there too.

I am guilty and suck also

R.i.p. Ganondorf

 

[Divinokage]

We all play Ganondorf for the attention, nobody goes out of their way to practice their tech consistently. We all suicide on wave lands and tournament winner constantly. Not a single one of us can chain grab space animals and we rely way too much on movement gimmicks, which again we still mess up constantly.

It's time to practice your punish game, if you aren't getting max out come in each opportunity then don't play Ganondorf. Getting an opening is hard enough and if you piss it away then the match is lost.

All of us need to lose our attitudes about being fast and learn how to get smart. We all have been writing guides, helping each other grow but none of us are reaping the rewards of the potential we all have.

It's just disheartening, no one ever has good news. It's always hey guys I lost to the same people I always do. Accept it until the next event where we lose there too.

I am guilty and suck also

R.i.p. Ganondorf

Not so fast, I intend to get my old consistency back where I'm extremely fast and can read fast enough where I can handle even the Gods like back then. I'm going to get everything down! Rawr!!!

 

[-ACE-]

Not a single one of us can chain grab space animals

Umm... i know you have a falco. Let's MM on FD/DL64 only and I'll show you 8 regrabs to wizards foot first hand.

But for real, you are so right (except I do not play ganon for attention). Fast is almost as good as smart also. If you were slow you would NOT be doing so well vs juan. I'm trying to do my part to help the Ganon metagame, but as a player I suffer because work + women get priority over smash.

And kage, I'd be happy just to see you attend a big tourney again. Where's that drive? Go get em!

 

[spider_sense]

Speak for yourself Mark; I didn't even go to BH4, who knows how well I would have performed. I am very smart player, despite being one of the most technical among us. I just use my techs as tools; Ask anyone in SFL how I am compared to a majority of Ganons and they say I'm ridiculous (no offense to any of you guys) I understand the application of footsies, zoning, corner pressure, and how to mitigate pressure. I just don't know how to recognize play styles which obviously means I need to travel more. Everyone did as best as they could with the knowledge that they had when they with to BH4 and I'm pretty proud of you guys for that; don't let one tournament discourage how you play; just take in stride and learn from it. You'll only get that much better as a player and maybe as a person. There have been players that have won tournaments (national ones at that) that play mid to low tier characters, it just takes a crap load of persistence.

Also, I actually chaingrab spacies; it's pretty simple once you get them above 50% and like Ace mentioned; you can go into a wizard's foot at around 80-90% guaranteed.

Ian yeah Hugs is damn good, I honestly felt like when we did the boss rush, he wasn't taking that many matches seriously. Playing him at STR in bracket felt much different from the gauntlet itself. I guess my point with that is you can't think you're a boss at beating someone or amazing in a certain matchup unless you play them in a tournament setting.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i feel like the chain grabs on spacies are overrated. you have to be so fast and consistent at lower percents and once you reach the mid 40s and 50s where it becomes easier i would still think dthrow into late jab, no tech, dair to fair would be better as it puts them offstage for the edgeguard and is much easier to execute. with the ability to cover 3/4 tech options at a time, why would i chain grab unless they di'd poorly?

let me put it this way. kage is the most successful among the ganons, and his strategy seems to be to put space animals offstage asap instead of messing around with these chain grabs. once they hit 70, uthrow ftilt should be sufficient to set up for an edgeguard if you send them in the right direction.

We all play Ganondorf for the attention, nobody goes out of their way to practice their tech consistently.

i-i-i do

 

[-ACE-]

80-90%? Nah that's good for ftilt or even a quick bair, which can get KO's but 140ish to WF is the guaranteed KO. Great post tho man.

Edit: wanted you're hating on the CG because you haven't mastered it. I see your post and read, I can't get the regrab so I techchase instead. This is NOT a bad thing, but it doesn't mean the CG is overrated. That mentality can hold you back.

 

[-ACE-]

And dude just because kage is the best doesn't mean he's the model Ganon to copy. We ALL need improvement. Fly aminita doesn't wobble. Is wobbling bad, just because he does well without it? Keep an open mind.

 

[Divinokage]

And dude just because kage is the best doesn't mean he's the model Ganon to copy. We ALL need improvement. Fly aminita doesn't wobble. Is wobbling bad, just because he does well without it? Keep an open mind.

My style is very instinctual, I don't think it can be copied that easily because i have deep understanding about empathy and all that warrior stuff i talked about before. Armada talked about that right after TBH4 which I loved. For example, seeing the small body language of the player besides you. Feeling his mindset when you did a huge combo on him. I take advantage of that every time I can. In intense moments, i can literally feel what the other feels which allows me to read him a lot easier. All my gutsy reads are = I know exactly when he's going to attack or perform an action. It also ties with intuition, I don't think that kind of stuff is magical powers or anything, it's simply paying attention to the little details.

And ya I try to CG when I can but the reason why I'm successful with my punish is because I punish really hard and I can manipulate the DI of my adversary which allows me more hits instead of trying to guess again in neutral which is terrible for Ganon obviously. But ya like I said I do intend to train really hard for Apex coming up so I can blow up faces at lightning speeds. I was clearly moving faster in general when I was watching my sets with Mango for example but at the time I was playing easily 50h a week. I have to get that back. =P

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kage, I think we would all love to see you come and put ganon back on the board.

Spidey, I agree with you, but you gotta travel more! At this point, I think we all know you're a top 4 ganon, but you have no way to prove it. You've gotten extremely smart over the years, and added to your technical skill, I think that you could place very highly if you attended out of state tournaments.

Renth, you're right. I pride myself in like 4-5 matchups, but other than that, I'm a fraud lol. I suck vs space animals and got 4-stocked by a falco who got beaten by the crimson blur (who I 3-stocked because he plays Marth and I'm familiar as hell with that matchup). And blur knows the matchup as well since he plays with bizzarro pretty frequently. So, that's unacceptable and obviously the skill is there, I just need the experience.

Also, quick thing to mention: ORLY (my local falcon) said that there are 4 assets that every good player has. 1) your tech skill 2) your mindgames 3) matchup knowledge and 4) getting the best of your tournament nerves.

I have 1 and 2 at an acceptable level. Obviously, improvement is always needed and I'm working on it. Due to location restrictions, 3 is nowhere near a tournament-ready level. 4 is ok now (used to have a huge problem) for regular matches. If I'm on stream, though, that needs work. Obviously, that'll just come with experience.

edit: 50 hours a week? ****, kage, no wonder you're a boss lol. I wish I had that kind of time. I'm at maybe 2 hours a week. Gotta step it up and train with more space animals. I wish I had year-round kels practice :/ I swear the next tournament we're at together, I'm gonna steal him from everyone else and sit down until I don't get bodied by fox.

 

[Renth]

@ spider_sense Not calling out one individual player, as a whole. Everything I mentioned is something the majority whom I am addressing, have many issues with. For so many years now, every one will do one cool combo or one neat thing but none of us really do anything notable.

We all have a lot to grow and I want this growth to start now.

Truthfully, Jason. You, Me, possibly Kage. Would have drowned in pools at Big House. None of us are up to par and we need to man up and accept it.

 

[spider_sense]

@ spider_sense Not calling out one individual player, as a whole. Everything I mentioned is something the majority whom I am addressing, have many issues with. For so many years now, every one will do one cool combo or one neat thing but none of us really do anything notable.

We all have a lot to grow and I want this growth to start now.

I get you Mark, but you have to understand that the guys that went to BH4 are fairly new to Ganon (as far as I know) because they come here and ask a ton of questions, it's just a little unfair to say that anyone that went underperformed with Ganon when they were trying their best while learning the character and matchups. We all know playing Ganon isn't a cakewalk, but isn't that where all the fun is? lol

Also, I'm returning the number 1 Ganon in the world back to its rightful home. South Florida. Mark my words.

 

[Renth]

"Mark my words"

Well played. Also, Eikelmann, N0ne and Bizzaro are not new to Ganondorf. I am being harsh on the new blood but we forge our players through fire not hand them candy and tell them they did a good job.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

South Florida may have been home to the best ganon at one point in time, but let's not forget where Ganondorf was invented- in Chicago; by Eddie J. Howells. I'm gonna bring the big man back to his rightful birth place.

This tournament has sort of opened my eyes to the potential that I have. I'm familiar with Marth and 3-stocked the 1st seed in my pool. After being eliminated, I started playing friendlies with NMW (formerly-ranked falcon main from NorCal), who is Bizzarro Flame's static teams partner, so he obviously has a lot of good ganon experience. The very first game, I 2-stocked him because he plays falcon and I **** on falcon. This was only in friendlies, of course, but he was like "wtf, what happened to you on stream?" He probably beat me 60-70% of the time after that and 4-stocked me on FD lol but the point remains- I just need matchup experience and I can finally start performing well. I hope to play with him again soon, he's a really cool and funny guy.

I'm gonna go to the Chicago monthlies as often as I can, like I said, and play with the top players like Kels and Trail. Gotta get bopped a little bit before you can perform at your best.

Also, shout outs to N0ne and raynex for playing with tm and I and teaching us and having better ganons than we do. And Raynex's fox? Hooooly **** that thing destroyed me. Lol his Marth sucks though.

 

[-ACE-]

I skimmed right over 50 hours a week. WTF I actually think that might be detrimental to my play lmao. I bet you could work 40h and smash 20h, be able to attend AND wreck face. That's just me though, I can't do 7 hours a day, that's just ludicrous.

 

[Divinokage]

I skimmed right over 50 hours a week. WTF I actually think that might be detrimental to my play lmao. I bet you could work 40h and smash 20h, be able to attend AND wreck face. That's just me though, I can't do 7 hours a day, that's just ludicrous.

Nah it was more like 12h-15h every 2nd day back then.. lol.

SFL, best Ganon? Please.. even your best players couldnt even crack top 8 at BH this time. It's gonna be REALLY tough now. Can't have that FL bias anymore. Hahaha!

Also pseudo? Only 2h a week? That's not nearly enough, let's be realistic here.. to be successful at anything in life, you gotta put lots and lots of hours into it no matter what. There's just no other alternative. Get a good PC + adapter then we can play a lot online or something.. =P

 

[X WaNtEd X]

80-90%? Nah that's good for ftilt or even a quick bair, which can get KO's but 140ish to WF is the guaranteed KO. Great post tho man.

Edit: wanted you're hating on the CG because you haven't mastered it. I see your post and read, I can't get the regrab so I techchase instead. This is NOT a bad thing, but it doesn't mean the CG is overrated. That mentality can hold you back.

i think that even if i could consistently chain grab i'd choose not to because getting a read on a tech chase or jab mixup combo puts on damage quicker and will certainly send them offstage quicker.

And dude just because kage is the best doesn't mean he's the model Ganon to copy. We ALL need improvement. Fly aminita doesn't wobble. Is wobbling bad, just because he does well without it? Keep an open mind.

i try to take things from all the great ganons. but i think the idea of playing the space animal matchups in that way makes the most sense. perhaps i presented that idea in a fallacious manner, but i only threw in kage's name to make the point that it seems to be an effective strategy given the results.

 

[-ACE-]

you would say, "forget this guaranteed KO that takes 10 seconds, I'd rather roll the dice and depend on the 50% chance that I'll get the KO, because if I do, it'll only take 5 seconds"?

I just believe the neutral game is the most difficult part of the game, simply because you aren't in full control of what happens. Once you get a grab on a chaingrabbable character (save spacies at low%), you ARE in control. Why forfeit this on a gamble? Finding KO opportunities isn't always easy.

Also kage I am pretty sure jason is talking about the times when tipman was the best, and there was a time when linguini was the best too.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Also pseudo? Only 2h a week? That's not nearly enough, let's be realistic here.. to be successful at anything in life, you gotta put lots and lots of hours into it no matter what. There's just no other alternative. Get a good PC + adapter then we can play a lot online or something.. =P

Kage, that's a really nice offer, thanks! I'd obviously love to get the playing time. Can you recommend me a good adaptor on amazon or something? I'll order it right now.

Yea, I know 2h a week isn't enough to actually get good lol, but I'm in my senior year of college, and I'm working on a business startup, so my time is actually pretty limited. I'm learning how to program in my free time as well, so my partner isn't stuck with the brunt of the hard work. It isn't helping that the banks are COMPLETELY ****ing me over on this startup too. I hate big banks, but I unfortunately need a big one for this thing to work. Anyway, I digress...

If you're serious about training with me, I'd definitely put in the extra work to progress farther and get my ganon into top 32.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, that's a really nice offer, thanks! I'd obviously love to get the playing time. Can you recommend me a good adaptor on amazon or something? I'll order it right now.

Yea, I know 2h a week isn't enough to actually get good lol, but I'm in my senior year of college, and I'm working on a business startup, so my time is actually pretty limited. I'm learning how to program in my free time as well, so my partner isn't stuck with the brunt of the hard work. It isn't helping that the banks are COMPLETELY ****ing me over on this startup too. I hate big banks, but I unfortunately need a big one for this thing to work. Anyway, I digress...

If you're serious about training with me, I'd definitely put in the extra work to progress farther and get my ganon into top 32.

You should be the one serious about training, I always mean what I say. =)

 

[GanonMaster]

Does any of you have experience against PAL-sheik? Last tournament I lost against two sheikplayers and it is really annoying :/

It is so bad that I am considering Peach/Falcon-secondary for Sheik only ROFL

 

[-ACE-]

I wish all sheiks were pal sheiks.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kage, I'm gonna take you up on that. I just ordered the adaptor.

Yo, why would you take up falcon or peach for sheik? Why not jiggs or ICs or something like that? Those are actually bad matchups for sheik. Ask trail about the ICs secondary, it's a pretty decent complement to ganon

 

[n0ne]

Ggs everyone. Tbh4 was mad hype, got to play on stream twice, once vs duck and then vs porkchops. Lost but at least the sets were hype and i guess now i proved my name now at a big event.

 

[-ACE-]

Ahhh sh*t. Clay (porkchops) has plenty of Ganon experience. Told you duck was mad good too haha (although I know you are too). Any recorded matches n0ne?

 

[n0ne]

Ahhh sh*t. Clay (porkchops) has plenty of Ganon experience. Told you duck was mad good too haha (although I know you are too). Any recorded matches n0ne?

Yea. N0ne vs duck and n0ne vs porkchops on youtube. I went falcon tho, i only went dorf against triple r. Im pissed that my set against darkatma wasnt recorded. It was really good too, beat him 2-1

 

[-ACE-]

http://smashboards.com/forums/captain-falcon.66/

It was nice kn0wing you.

Lmao. Jk, I'll check your matches out later.

 

[n0ne]

http://smashboards.com/forums/captain-falcon.66/

It was nice kn0wing you.

Lmao. Jk, I'll check your matches out later.

Lol. All my dorf matches werent recorded. I played plenty of dorf against all of the other dorfs that went to big house i believe

 

[tm]

Big House was a ****ing blast. SOs to Eikelmann, Pseudo, n0ne, Jiggles, and Moy for our games.

Renth, I'm loving the attitude. **** like that just makes me want to get so good.

Here's my set from on stream:

vs zanguzen (falco)

I did pretty well game 1 (minus some tech flubs) but game 2 he had adapted, almost always teching away then slowly resetting to neutral and I just wasn't getting any punishment from my hits. Any advice would be great.

Also:
vs Burnt Out Ninja (sheik)
vs Butch G (peach)

Did pretty well overall, losing to Colbol and Slayer.
(WTF, colbol is wayyyy too good)
Slayer is a falcon. I need work on that MU, I just get bodied by nair-> grab combos. And even when I DI upairs away, I still get edgeguarded. Maybe my DI is too predictable. Also got hit by several sideBs, and I know I should be able to punish the **** out of that. Gotta figure out in what situations he was using it.

 

[-ACE-]

Man I like your falcon. Who was that commenting on you vs duck? Sounded like blur and hmw. Whoever said your falcon is slow better share what they're smoking. I like your little baits and setups in the neutral game, as well as your decision making in general risk taking and some of your SDI habits. I've known about you for years but never saw the falcon, good stuff.

 

[n0ne]

Man I like your falcon. Who was that commenting on you vs duck? Sounded like blur and hmw. Whoever said you are said your falcon is slow better share what they're smoking. I like your little baits and setups in the neutral game, as well as your decision making in general risk taking and some of your SDI habits. I've known about you for years but never saw the falcon, good stuff.

Hmw and crimson blur. Obviously vs samus u gotta slow down a bit. Vs porkchops i played way faster

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Really wish I was able to be there for BH4. It was an amazing Top 8 watching on stream and to be there in person would have been even better. I really wanted to play all you guys. *sigh*

Anywho, I think I've come to the realization that I just don't have a knack for Ganondorf in singles. I don't feel like I have a lot of fun with the character anymore and I feel like his glaring weaknesses make him feel more like a chore than like I'm having fun. I'll still want to play Ganon in doubles though. I think he's waaay more viable in doubles than he is in singles.

If you'd like for me to go in depth of why I don't think Ganon is for me (even though I've been playing as him in singles for so long) I'm willing to elaborate, but right now I'm just a bit lazy, so I'll only get into detail if people are interested

 

[Renth]

TM col Bol is godlike and I will critique your sets

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, I'm gonna take you up on that. I just ordered the adaptor.

Yo, why would you take up falcon or peach for sheik? Why not jiggs or ICs or something like that? Those are actually bad matchups for sheik. Ask trail about the ICs secondary, it's a pretty decent complement to ganon

Because it's more comfortable to play Falcon I guess? I was losing to pkm all the time but then i switched to falcon and I can consistently beat his Sheik now. lol.

 

[Renth]

Also, di captain falcon combos down and away not up.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

you would say, "forget this guaranteed KO that takes 10 seconds, I'd rather roll the dice and depend on the 50% chance that I'll get the KO, because if I do, it'll only take 5 seconds"?.

does it take 10 seconds? that question i asked two posts ago wasn't just rhetorical, i'm legitimately curious as to why i should learn chaingrabbing. it seems to me that you need to be able to have inhuman reflexes to be able to react to all the possible space animal di long enough to get them to a percent high enough for a guaranteed followup that would put them offstage or kill unless you started the chaingrab at a higher percent. so it sounds like you're taking a bigger risk going for a chaingrab for a long time because if you mess up all you get is the percent you buillt up from it already and possibly a nair to the face.

so i guess my real question is this. is it a reasonable goal to learn the chaingrab well enough to never mess up? it looks almost impossible and i don’t think i would ever try to use it in a set unless i was that proficient at it. it just doesn’t seem worth it otherwise. i’m hoping someone here will spill enough knowledge to convince me otherwise, but based on my experience and what i’ve read so far that’s where i stand.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

It's just disheartening, no one ever has good news. It's always hey guys I lost to the same people I always do. Accept it until the next event where we lose there too.

actually idk about you, but i beat new people and do better against previous losses at every tournament i attend. I was a forward air away from taking a game off of hbox in our tournament set, and i've never played HugS in a serious tournament setting before. beating moose was a legitimately good win, and you can ask any midwest player that knows their **** about that. i beat carroll, darrel, vish, nmw, duck, and plenty of other good people in money matches after the tournament ended for me. my sets with zanguzen and kalamazhu resulted in a loss, 2-1, but they were both new experiences and were a good display of what ganondorf is capable of; that's equal to success in my eyes.

Also, I'm returning the number 1 Ganon in the world back to its rightful home. South Florida. Mark my words.

lol

Ask anyone in SFL how I am compared to a majority of Ganons

Why would I do that when the majority of people in South Florida can't beat me, even though they have copious amounts of Ganondorf experience? Let alone the fact that they couldn't even HOPE to understand our character outside of the matchup with their own character. Regional bias is meaningless. That title belongs nowhere.

Not a single one of us can chain grab space animals

I'll go ahead and assume you're referring to a chaingrab string from seven years ago that's still supposed to be some practical way of dominating space animals. We could pretend for a moment that what occurred in Magus' video was something that could be performed consistently; under tournament pressure AND technical pressure. But that would be unfair to us, and to the development of our character. We haven't even delved into understanding the other chaingrab strings and options available from them.

I'd link stuff from my own videos, but I don't really feel like searching through all of them. I have a lot of examples in my matches. Even beer master (lambchops) went out of his way to tell me that he liked that I use chaingrab mixups so often. Said that @ L Linguini used to do it or something.

 

[-ACE-]

Like I said, your use of the chaingrab should completely depend on the degree to which you have mastered it. If you choose not to learn it, you're only limiting your own potential to succeed (Ganon mains simply can't afford to do this imo). I've explained, in detail, how to do chaingrab, how to practice, how to finish it, etc. If it's still too tough I recommend giving up on it, you'll just be missing out on guaranteed KO's and relying on hopes and dreams more often.

The 10 seconds remark wasn't meant to be taken literally, lol, but yes, chaingrabbing takes time. The thing is, you are in control of everything and your opponent is temporarily helpless.

http://youtu.be/bsNbCkzRF-s

 

[spider_sense]

I haven't seen you beat Pork, maybe Lamb. Maybe it was the way it was tenderized?

 

[-ACE-]

zidane is a hidden sfl boss too.