Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

Hey guys. Played in a tournament at my college yesterday and I got the two matches where I end up losing recorded.

http://youtu.be/3EKcD6Pz9tw

This first match is me vs. Bl@ck Chris, who I felt like I started off pretty well vs. his Fox, but then I got trapped at the edge and I didn't find around to get around his pressure. In the Ganon ditto, I didn't grab him nearly enough, wanted to chain-grab him, and I need to practice the ledge-drop upair cause I'm still killing myself cause of it.

http://youtu.be/le5M9PxJsb4

This second match was vs. Libner, who's a pretty good rising Falcon main that goes to UNCC that I have had trouble beating since the school year has started. Usually our sets are very close but he bopped me this time on Dreamland with a 3-stock. My problem vs. him is I just out of shield too much, getting caught in his jabs/gentlemens. I realized that he runs away each time he whiffs a nair or hits my shield cause he doesn't want to get grabs, and he has a lot of ways to grab me that I just wasn't playing defensively enough to deal with. I think I definitely need to play more defensively against him and do retreating fairs, bairs, and wavedash back OoS and up-angled ftilt. Also, I'm not getting nearly as much out of my grabs as I want to, and I'm not picking up on his tech habits, which I definitely should have taken advantage of and stomped him for it.

Besides all that, see anything else that I could work on?

 

[Coastward]

Hey guys. Played in a tournament at my college yesterday and I got the two matches where I end up losing recorded.

http://youtu.be/3EKcD6Pz9tw

This first match is me vs. Bl@ck Chris, who I felt like I started off pretty well vs. his Fox, but then I got trapped at the edge and I didn't find around to get around his pressure. In the Ganon ditto, I didn't grab him nearly enough, wanted to chain-grab him, and I need to practice the ledge-drop upair cause I'm still killing myself cause of it.

http://youtu.be/le5M9PxJsb4

This second match was vs. Libner, who's a pretty good rising Falcon main that goes to UNCC that I have had trouble beating since the school year has started. Usually our sets are very close but he bopped me this time on Dreamland with a 3-stock. My problem vs. him is I just out of shield too much, getting caught in his jabs/gentlemens. I realized that he runs away each time he whiffs a nair or hits my shield cause he doesn't want to get grabs, and he has a lot of ways to grab me that I just wasn't playing defensively enough to deal with. I think I definitely need to play more defensively against him and do retreating fairs, bairs, and wavedash back OoS and up-angled ftilt. Also, I'm not getting nearly as much out of my grabs as I want to, and I'm not picking up on his tech habits, which I definitely should have taken advantage of and stomped him for it.

Besides all that, see anything else that I could work on?

2 things i saw that i wanna point out mainly.

1) mix up your tech. you kept rolling into dthrow knee and he just kept reading it.

2) use jab more. most of the time when you were using jab, you either got a combo off of him or put him in his shield which hindered his movement.

idk what you were trying to do when you were jumping out of shield lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

2 things i saw that i wanna point out mainly.

1) mix up your tech. you kept rolling into dthrow knee and he just kept reading it.

2) use jab more. most of the time when you were using jab, you either got a combo off of him or put him in his shield which hindered his movement.

idk what you were trying to do when you were jumping out of shield lol.

I probably was trying to wavedash out of shield but I messed up and just ended up jumping. That, or I wanted to bair out of shield.

I also need to space my bair, fair, and uair a lot better.

 

[Divinokage]

I probably was trying to wavedash out of shield but I messed up and just ended up jumping. That, or I wanted to bair out of shield.

I also need to space my bair, fair, and uair a lot better.

The main things I noticed from your play is that you still seem to whiff a lot of attacks which obviously will get you cornered as you offer the opportunity for a counter-attack. Also, when you do get into that cornered situation in your shield or you are getting hit, you don't seem to input any DI to escape that zone. You really need to do that or else as I saw Fox is gonna be all over you easily. That smash DI and shield DI is definitely something every Ganon needs to do to escape free pressure. I could get into more specifics later if you want. Like if you get downaired, you can shield DI or SDI every single little hit either inside or away depending on where he landed. You can get a free reversal jab afterwards usually as they'll very likely continue to attack you.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

The main things I noticed from your play is that you still seem to whiff a lot of attacks which obviously will get you cornered as you offer the opportunity for a counter-attack. Also, when you do get into that cornered situation in your shield or you are getting hit, you don't seem to input any DI to escape that zone. You really need to do that or else as I saw Fox is gonna be all over you easily. That smash DI and shield DI is definitely something every Ganon needs to do to escape free pressure. I could get into more specifics later if you want. Like if you get downaired, you can shield DI or SDI every single little hit either inside or away depending on where he landed. You can get a free reversal jab afterwards usually as they'll very likely continue to attack you.

Yeah, getting into more specifics would be greatly appreciated.

I feel like I should focus more on not throwing out as many moves and instead putting myself in a good position to hit my opponent. I'm still stuck in this "I want to hit my opponent" mindset that isn't letting me get anywhere. I feel like if I try to "style" a bit with my movement across the stage and calculate when I throw a move out could throw off my opponent, but I don't know unless I try. I feel like I could have more fun with the game if I do that, so I think I'll give it a try.

 

[GanonMaster]

hmm, played against the best local sheik yesterday, and with ganon I played 1-1. I'll get some vods asap for science ^^

 

[Coastward]

Yeah, getting into more specifics would be greatly appreciated.

I feel like I should focus more on not throwing out as many moves and instead putting myself in a good position to hit my opponent. I'm still stuck in this "I want to hit my opponent" mindset that isn't letting me get anywhere. I feel like if I try to "style" a bit with my movement across the stage and calculate when I throw a move out could throw off my opponent, but I don't know unless I try. I feel like I could have more fun with the game if I do that, so I think I'll give it a try.

dat colour change tho

 

[Divinokage]

Yeah, getting into more specifics would be greatly appreciated.

I feel like I should focus more on not throwing out as many moves and instead putting myself in a good position to hit my opponent. I'm still stuck in this "I want to hit my opponent" mindset that isn't letting me get anywhere. I feel like if I try to "style" a bit with my movement across the stage and calculate when I throw a move out could throw off my opponent, but I don't know unless I try. I feel like I could have more fun with the game if I do that, so I think I'll give it a try.

Well right off the bat, should probably get to the ground since Fox got you first and you didn't do anything to pressure him with a jump towards him. At worst what could happen there is that you miss an upair but at least you'll get back to the ground.

0:15 - Should expect him to jump towards you, you baired too late and also you didn't fast fall it. On small characters, you have to I think. AC bair doesn't hit them. It does hit Falco though, I think? You can also probably Ftilt as an alternative.

0:18 - I'm guessing that was a fail waveland? No reason to get up attack when he's low % he can punish you back easily.

0:20 - That was a pretty sick grab.. I don't even think you were invincible either, imagine we can do that at will.. rofl, that would shut down Fox even harder as he will lose control of his movement which is what you want at all times basically.

But downthrow jab at 20%, no good.. At low % you must go for a harder read, in that situation maybe a small wavedash or just walk downsmash or direct side-B might've worked better. I wouldn't have down-B because he was too low %. Maybe even just straight up Fair. You gotta position Ganon in a way where you can cover at least 2 options, jab doesn't do much at low %.

0:24 - Should train your ears to hear the side-B.. If you have backed away just slightly more, could have downaired into a huge punish.

0:26 - Not sure why you daired, he wasn't there + slow reaction.. try not to waste your DJ to time a quick attack, it's too slow.

0:40 - Pretty scary to go directly above Fox like this, try to avoid that.. you'll get hit fairly easy.

0:42 - You can combo jab/dash attack, that was slow but it looked like you beat him in footsies instead lol.

0:48 - Definitely could have gone after him.. I also have troubles with that but don't be afraid to hit firefox with upair or fair.

0:49 - Those are the jabs you should look for, it stuffed his jump and it was max range too. =D

0:53 - Again go after him! He was definitely in range. When he's close to the stage like that, go punch!!

0:55 - Wow I'm surprised he didn't punish your Fair like that but good jab to prevent his jump afterwards. That was a very risky play though.

1:00 - No punish?

1:10 - That same AC bair from earlier, it's not gonna hit unless he jumps. Focus more on jabs and tilts/dash attacks.

1:25 - Wavedash towards in the corner? Very risky as well, there's plenty of things he can do to you in that period and as you saw you got Naired. Fortunately you shield grabbed his failed pressure afterwards or else it could have been bad.

1:30 - Basically the situation I was talking about earlier and you pulled it off nicely this time. Side-B at low % after downthrow into Fair but that Fair should be hit in the air, don't let him have time to choose a tech because you'd have to guess.

1:32 - Omg, punish that!! Don't be scared of Fox recovering! lol.

1:37 - Uair that ****! Fair has too much start up time to punish a full hop.

1:41 - You basically gave him the center there, not sure what you were afraid of when he burned his DJ... uair!!

1:50 - You did downair? Never do that in the air that high, the likelihood of hitting it is too small, just try to avoid the next move with air control. Usually only Fox uair or bair can come out from that high.

1:53 - Not sure what you were looking for there? Whiffed 2 moves.

1:56 - Mmm instead of shielding a Nair.. i'd have wavedash back into jab or CC jab probably.. or just put a ftilt so he can't Nair plane that easily.

2:11 - That looked like a Fair out of frustration, lol. Remember now you are cornered because you went for a hard read. Should have also remained below the platform because Fox was ready for you to go on them pretty clearly there.

2:12 - Fairly certain you could have CC and also please SDI those dair! Don't shield in the corner either, that's asking to be pressured especially when you didn't have time to do a bait and switch with a roll or something.

2:20 - What did you go for there? Jump? You gotta notice a little better the range between you and Fox because he was clearly in range to hit you so even just shield or jump is very risky.. You could have re-grabbed the ledge and wait it out a bit longer, situations like this is where you mix it up with waveland in or just jump up on the stage into a move. Not much choice but to call a counter-attack there or try to roll back to the center with invincibility if you know he wants to attack you in the corner.

Well after that.. Ganon being Ganon.. could have probably uair in between one of those fair combo setups. Should always at least try to DI or SDI every single move, it gives Ganon another possible chance, don't give up!

 

[GanonMaster]

Ganonplay against Sheik starts at 37:20, would be cool if someone took some time and told me how horrible I am! http://www.twitch.tv/smashnorge/b/565927762

 

[X WaNtEd X]

here are some of the matches on twitch, bracket matches and money matches.

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/564005369?t=1h36m23s - vs mario
www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/564005369?t=1h40m18s - vs samus, zelda/sheik, marth
www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/564005369?t=1h52m31s - vs peach
http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/563978479?t=35m47s - vs falcon/fox (IF ANYTHING IS WATCHED, WATCH THIS)

some other matches need to be uploaded since the twitch VODs are messed. one match i had was against a falco that i knew i had a good chance of beating. we played in pools and he beat me 2-1. i took him to FD to test things out since you guys were talking about how its not a bad stage, and i honestly agree. i got 3 stocked on there though lmao, wasnt playing the laser game right and like i said before, my defensive game is pretty diarrhea. we played far into the losers bracket afterwards and it was still 2-1 him.

what are good ways to practice shield dropping + wdoos other than just practicing the execution? i wanna get that **** burned into my brain and make it muscle memory.

i didn't see this post before.

so i watched all your sets but i'm really only going to comment on the last one vs the falcon/fox. i love you went out with the dair/fair and dj uair'd to cover the side-b when he thought it was safe. that was really smart, i have to start doing that vs fox. just wanted to say i thought that was cool

but i can offer you some good advice on practicing shield dropping. i have put a lot of time into learning it and at this point, i think i am very good at it. i actually utilize it in matches all the time and it often turns the tide.

first you're going to want to get down being able to shield drop normally. go practice crouching on a platform. once you get that into your muscle memory, use that exact distance with the control stick to shield drop. you could also do the arizona method where you tilt the shield, but i've found that that method telegraphs a lot. good opponents will be able to tell when i'm going to shield drop as soon as they see the shield tilt and then they'll just back away instead of running into my uair. so that's why i highly recommend you practice the regular method.

so once you have that down at least to the point where you can do it somewhat consistently i'd practice shield drop aerials, specifically the uair. here's a ghetto non 20xx hack pack method i used to practice getting out the uair after the shield drop. pick a platform stage, set the items to very high and only put on mr. saturns. set 1 cpu to lv 1. i prefer to use either yoshi or jiggly puff because they will keep coming back to you and seem to attack the least often of all the lv 1s. all you gotta do is just shield drop uair everything. this way you'll be able to tell if you got it out in time. the cpu will follow you around so there aren't any items for a time, you can just hit it around.

as for the wd oos, i really can't offer you any advice on practicing that. i never had to practice it, could just do it as soon as i tried. but i had to work my ****ing ass off to get shield dropping down. took several months. and i still practice it just to make sure i never have to re-learn it.

 

[Coastward]

i practice that stuff on my own time, but when it comes to applying it i just cant do it or i forget to do it.

 

[cptjiggles69]

Can someone go over smash di? When can you not do it? And whatways do the control sticks have to be? And do i input that once or keep inputting it?

 

[cptjiggles69]

And thank you kage. I have dropped the habit of jabbing shield more than once... In case they do shield grab. Definitely better options there

 

[tm]

*match analysis*

This is smash gold, and exactly what we need imo. Much appreciated

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

dat colour change tho

It's freaking me out...

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i practice that stuff on my own time, but when it comes to applying it i just cant do it or i forget to do it.

i had this problem with shield drops for awhile. i could do them in practice but not in an actual match. it means you haven't learned it well enough yet; you still have to think about it. how consistent are you? can you do it 20 times without dropping it? 50? you gotta ask yourself these questions if you truly want to master something. that 1/20 times you mess up just means it isn't entirely subconscious yet.

 

[Coastward]

yeah i can do it like 20ish times in a row. guess ITS TIME TO GRIND IT OUT 24/7.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm not focusing on Shield Dropping just yet because I'm not at a skill level where I feel like I really need to learn it, or I just have better things that I could work on in the next several months, like my movement for example.

Thanks a bunch @ Divinokage for the analysis. I'll definitely try to apply it to the next Fox I play in tournament. I'll definitely try to fair/upair that firefox if he's too close. It's worth it to trade, right?

 

[Renth]

http://www.azubu.tv/HungryBox#!/play/8690/melee-&-pm-w/-hungrybox-! 3:20:08

Eikelmann, Spider_Sense Kage I summon you.

I hate space animals tell me what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Renth]

Today marks 9 years of competitive ssbm for me.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Today marks 9 years of competitive ssbm for me.

We much celebrate... with a Combo Video

 

[Coastward]

im telling you, we should all do a collab combo video. itd be awesome.

 

[cptjiggles69]

Double hit nair has combo potential! I was able to use it successfully for an easy follow up.

 

[VGmasta]

http://www.azubu.tv/HungryBox#!/play/8690/melee-&-pm-w/-hungrybox-! 3:20:08

Eikelmann, Spider_Sense Kage I summon you.

I hate space animals tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Yeah man, screw the spacies.

But congrats on your 9-year anniversary man.
You've always appeared successful on this game, but I'm glad you're gaining additional recognition. You clearly put the time into it.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

ayyyyy! check out this match that i got on VGbootcamp! some neat stuff in here!

http://youtu.be/-RE7U2S3tAE?t=7m23s

 

[Mr. Ganondorf]

Today marks 9 years of competitive ssbm for me.

I was reading this thread a couple days ago cuz Eikelmann linked me to it and I thought, "hey it's Renth's smash anniversary soon." Good **** bro, looking forward to watching some of your stream today :D

As for your matches vs spacies, esp Fox, ya just gotta edgeguard em better. Sooooo many times it would be last stock, Fox would catch a fat fair, be off stage, and somehow get back. Most spacies prefer to side b sweet spot to ledge. If you smell it coming, wd back or moonwalk and fast fall to steal the ledge real quick, boom edge hog, dead space animal.

When Fox starts his up B from above stage level and you're not edgehogging, he's gonna go for the ledge sweetspot guaranteed (unless it's Mango or in teams, then sometimes Fox will recover higher and land on a platform). And fair won't reach low enough to catch em guaranteed, it does in PM tho, but not Melee. If you sit way out practically in teeter animation and do the stanky leg (I mean low angle ftilt), that works sometimes, same vs their forward B sweet spot attempts too. But honestly you're better off edgehogging to force them to recover on stage, then hit em again with ledge hop uair, or waveland on to something. Sometimes the spacie would be dead, but you just goofed off instead of wd back grab ledge and roll, so stop trying to swag so much in tournies

Now if they are up B'ing from below the stage, that is a free stomp. Between how impossible the stomp is to meteor cancel and their fast falling nature, they ain't gonna get a second chance at life. A couple times I saw you try to fair or uair or bair in these cases. If you jab them off stage and they have to do low up b, just walk off, stomp. Also, walk off uair is good if they are low, but not low enough to stomp. HugS of all people taught me that and called it "the lazy boy." Walk off fair catches a lot of people in a lot of matchups too, looks like a Ganon dropzone.

Hope some of this stuff helps. I really don't feel qualified to coach you though. Watching you and Mooney's matches made me realize just how far I've fallen at Melee by playing too much PM and just how damn good you guys have gotten. It really is 2014, your wavelands are so sweet and playstyle so fast. Especially love your waveland behind tomahawk grabs.

 

[-ACE-]

or just put a ftilt so he can't Nair plane that easily

Lols were had. Pretty solid writeup kage.

Having nothing but a phone makes critiquing vids virtually impossible, and some vids unwatchable @ Renth I'll watch your vids one day I promise! Lmao.
Ian that was fairly brutal haha good stuff.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.azubu.tv/HungryBox#!/play/8690/melee-&-pm-w/-hungrybox-! 3:20:08

Eikelmann, Spider_Sense Kage I summon you.

I hate space animals tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I can try to do it soon, perhaps tomorrow.

Today marks 9 years of competitive ssbm for me.

I see what you did there Mark. ^_^

Lols were had. Pretty solid writeup kage.

I suppose its my style to do a write up just like I play the game, violent and dramatic. lol.

 

[Renth]

After re-watching my recent games.

I really, really really. Need to STOP missing so many edge guards LOL @ Mr. Ganondorf you are very correct

 

[X WaNtEd X]

ayyyyy! check out this match that i got on VGbootcamp! some neat stuff in here!

http://youtu.be/-RE7U2S3tAE?t=7m23s

i notice you make walls with full hop in a double jump mixup a lot as opposed to short hop aerial double jump whatever against spacies. why all the full hops? clearly it works, but i would've thought short hop would be better in a lot of the scenarios where the full hop worked out.

also i'm not really qualified to give you advice, but i can see you're making the big strides these days and have the drive to go even further so i figure you'll take whatever you can get. i notice you throw out bairs facing the opposite direction when approaching a little too much. not sure if it's a technical flub or if you're trying to read rolls, but just thought i'd bring that to your attention as you got punished for it a few times in that set and others i've seen.

 

[Renth]

Streaming SSBM ! Starting off with some all star mode zero heart zero continue attempts, playing with friends later. 9 year anniversary of competitive smash brothers.

Ganondorf Q&A

www.twitch.tv/lunacy_renth

 

[Coastward]

ian when you play you look so bored LOL

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ian, you are so ****ing good now.

But I'm going to keep ******** at you when you change characters mid-match.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Ian, you are so ****ing good now.

But I'm going to keep *****ing at you when you change characters mid-match.

i just really wanted to get a cargo suicide kill on the ****er. sorry.

 

[n0ne]

I

Hey guys. Played in a tournament at my college yesterday and I got the two matches where I end up losing recorded.

http://youtu.be/3EKcD6Pz9tw

This first match is me vs. Bl@ck Chris, who I felt like I started off pretty well vs. his Fox, but then I got trapped at the edge and I didn't find around to get around his pressure. In the Ganon ditto, I didn't grab him nearly enough, wanted to chain-grab him, and I need to practice the ledge-drop upair cause I'm still killing myself cause of it.

http://youtu.be/le5M9PxJsb4

This second match was vs. Libner, who's a pretty good rising Falcon main that goes to UNCC that I have had trouble beating since the school year has started. Usually our sets are very close but he bopped me this time on Dreamland with a 3-stock. My problem vs. him is I just out of shield too much, getting caught in his jabs/gentlemens. I realized that he runs away each time he whiffs a nair or hits my shield cause he doesn't want to get grabs, and he has a lot of ways to grab me that I just wasn't playing defensively enough to deal with. I think I definitely need to play more defensively against him and do retreating fairs, bairs, and wavedash back OoS and up-angled ftilt. Also, I'm not getting nearly as much out of my grabs as I want to, and I'm not picking up on his tech habits, which I definitely should have taken advantage of and stomped him for it.

Besides all that, see anything else that I could work on?

I watched the fox match. I feel u didnt intimidate him to not move around so freely. Do more ftilts and stomps. Saw various situations where those two things would cover multiple options

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I


I watched the fox match. I feel u didnt intimidate him to not move around so freely. Do more ftilts and stomps. Saw various situations where those two things would cover multiple options

You're talking about in neutral right? Where exactly would I be ftilting and dairing? Would I full hop dair or short hop? Wavedash back into and ftilt? I wouldn't want to throw out moves and whiff and make myself vulnerable, but I get what you're saying cause covering options makes him reluctant to come in and attack. Still, I don't want to just throw out a move willy-nilly and get hit for it. What's the proper way of using these moves?

 

[cptjiggles69]

Anyone want to go over smash di?

 

[Superspright]

ayyyyy! check out this match that i got on VGbootcamp! some neat stuff in here!

http://youtu.be/-RE7U2S3tAE?t=7m23s

Good stuff. Very clean and concise. Your edge-guards were almost all perfect. I liked the chain-grab too. That was a good portfolio of the match up. The only thing missing was waveland moonwalking.

I beat him in tournament too a little while ago. When I first saw him I was sandbagging mega hard as CF doing dumb stuff and he tried to give me advice. Then we played our tournament set and I won 2-1. His Fox was all right, but I trashed his falco pretty hard. I even caught him with a utilt, and when the game ended he just said "I didn't get no warm ups!" and was reluctant to shake my hand. I guess he thought I was some random ass scrub. He's not very good though IMO. Or he has weaknesses against Ganondorf.

 

[Coastward]

nah i dont think pbnj is that good

 

[n0ne]

You're talking about in neutral right? Where exactly would I be ftilting and dairing? Would I full hop dair or short hop? Wavedash back into and ftilt? I wouldn't want to throw out moves and whiff and make myself vulnerable, but I get what you're saying cause covering options makes him reluctant to come in and attack. Still, I don't want to just throw out a move willy-nilly and get hit for it. What's the proper way of using these moves?

Fox gets caught up into techchase situations fairly early percentage wise. I believe an ftilt at 30 percent if not CC will knock him down. U could say its one of the weaknesses of the great and mighty Fox, along with his weak techroll.

U gotta prioritize putting spacies in tech chases and practice tech reads, its when u can get the most out of them if u can avoid/read gettup attacks and spotdodges. Imo theyre what mess dorf up the most.

Anyways, in the neutral game, waveland ftilt is the best approach most of the . It pressures fox a lot. Especially when hes camping u, u will usually get him by surprise cuz ppl dont expect the range of waveland + ftilt.

Stomp out of shield a bit more, but dont abuse it, be smart about when to utilize it, he was doing some really sloppy shine combos which couldve been punished with stomp oos. Or, wavedash back oos and ftilt .