Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

When sudying the neutral game, it's good to understand thought process (basically the "why" renth spoke of). Specific techs are one thing (edgeguarding, comboing, techchasing, move choice, etc.), and mistakes on specific techs are much easier to notice, but understanding zoning, spacing, and stage control is much more important. You have to be able to recognize when they made a mistake by moving away from Fox when he should have moved toward him, and visa versa, for example. If you've ever seen a video and said to yourself "I don't know how he won but ok" or "he didnt even do anything impressive", as long as their opponent didn't SD a lot, go back and watch it. Watch players like kage, DJN, cactuar and you will see how they avoid bad situations in their normal style of play. It's the ability to recognize and understand the importance the little decisions that makes all the difference.

 

[cptjiggles69]

I dont know why but everytime i try to watch anything on twitch it is super slow and laggy. It can't be my pc, i have no issues with youtube. ANy ideas why?

 

[ChemX]

I dont know why but everytime i try to watch anything on twitch it is super slow and laggy. It can't be my pc, i have no issues with youtube. ANy ideas why?

It actually does depend on your PC and also Twitch.
On my laptop Twitch is an utter nightmare to load and watching streams is just all around laggy.
On my gaming desktop, Twitch is beautiful and instantly loads.
What kind of computer do you have?

 

[Renth]

I dont know why but everytime i try to watch anything on twitch it is super slow and laggy. It can't be my pc, i have no issues with youtube. ANy ideas why?

Try a different browser??

 

[cptjiggles69]

thanks renth it worked on internet explorer. TM wow that was a really enetertaining match!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

When do I use Reverse Ledge-dashing? When is it most useful? I practice it a lot by myself but when I'm playing friendlies with a friend I never find myself doing it or looking for opportunities to do it. I seems to do pretty fine without it, so what's the point of RLDing?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

RLD alone (empty RLD) is to trick your opponent into thinking you're going to waveland on stage. It's incredibly useful when I find myself wavelanding on stage too often (happens quite a bit). The best use I've had for an empty RLD is when a marth tries to get a hard read and fsmash in the middle of the stage, you can RLD and then waveland into a grab. It isn't guaranteed, but they very, very, VERY rarely expect it and you'll get the grab 9/10 times.

RLD fair is also cool along with other mixups (RLD edge cancelled dair>fair or RLD edge cancelled dair>waveland on platform-works on battlefield and yoshis). The sickest thing I've ever done in my history of smash was RLD to double jump waveland behind pivot grab because my opponent was shielding, expecting the fair. It was super flashy, technical, highly situational and 100% badass.

I used to think it was the coolest thing ever, but I definitely still think it's pretty useful and rarely punishable.

 

[-ACE-]

RLD to immediate DJ uair/bair offstage gives you much more range than just ledgehopping out there and doing an aerial. And you can regrab the ledge with bair as well as uair (you can regrab the ledge from a ledgehop uair but with RLD you don't have to be frame perfect) if you drift back toward the stage after doing the move. Hardly anyone expects this as they are only familiar with the range of Ganon's ledgehop uair/bair.

You can RLD to any aerial (its like a reverse drop zone aerial) and make it back to the stage (even land on stage). RLD to uair has more range than ledgehop uair, and recovering from it is easier, but it is not fully invincible like a ledgedrop uair. RLD to dair has it's place too (ex: you can hit marth with this when he's used his jump before he is close enough to up-B and grab the ledge... sitting duck), and has more range than a drop since the center of the dair hitbox is at Ganon's heel).

RLD to aerial onstage is a great mixup like Joe pointed out. Just remember how dangerous it is (despite being the most commonly used RLD application) since you've used your jump. If you are about to fair and say "welp this isn't going to work out like I planned" waveland or airdodge instead.

RLD to dj waveland on lower platforms. Yes its possible. Works on battlefield so it'll work on some others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNowu9dQE6Y#t=0m25s
That waveland after RLD.

Input RLD with frame-perfect dj (dj the first frame possible after wavelanding off stage) to frame-perfect hold forward, hit R/L at peak of dj.

 

[tm]

RLD is definitely useful. Gotta get that consistency though.

My sets are now up on youtube

singles:
vs Sweet (sheik)
vs Beegs (marth)

doubles:
vs Boss & DP (winners)
vs Nakamaru & TheLake
vs Boss & DP (losers)

 

[Renth]

RLD is definitely useful. Gotta get that consistency though.

My sets are now up on youtube

singles:
vs Sweet (sheik)
vs Beegs (marth)

doubles:
vs Boss & DP (winners)
vs Nakamaru & TheLake
vs Boss & DP (losers)

I was debating doing a write up for you vs. Marth but I think you handle the match up very well. Also, I really enjoy doing get up attack when he's recovering also good show.

 

[-ACE-]

I took a quick look vs beegs and I think you were a little too trigger happy on the wd offstage to uair. I use it also but it can be risky so I'd stick to using it when you're at least 90% certain it'll hit. Your spacing could have been a lot better on some of your aerials, namely after wavelands on platforms. Also, I like your use of the light shield edgehog, but if you're going to use it when they can land on stage, remember that if they are experienced in the matchup they'll be expecting the ledgehop and may try to fake you out worth their landing. You did this once the first matchup and reacted quickly but ftilted after the pivot and he was able to shield, when jab and probably grab would have worked.
I use that ledge getup attack, but very sparingly and always try to make it invincible each time I use it.... I usually stick to ledgedrop uair when he's recovering low. Incincible its so free.

also I only saw a very small bit... 2 mins maybe. My apologies if this review seems off in regard to the entire set. I'll watch more when I can get wifi to work (phone)

 

[Clocked]

I'll watch more carefully in the Sheik matchup because I have a lot of experience with it, but that Matchup is rough in general because of Sheik's edgeguarding game. I'll see if there's anything to note later though. Awesome games though!

 

[tm]

I was debating doing a write up for you vs. Marth but I think you handle the match up very well. Also, I really enjoy doing get up attack when he's recovering also good show.

Yeah honestly I made a lot of big mistakes in that match. It was very close and without suiciding or making a couple of costly tech errors I could win.

I took a quick look vs beegs and I think you were a little too trigger happy on the wd offstage to uair. I use it also but it can be risky so I'd stick to using it when you're at least 90% certain it'll hit. Your spacing could have been a lot better on some of your aerials, namely after wavelands on platforms. Also, I like your use of the light shield edgehog, but if you're going to use it when they can land on stage, remember that if they are experienced in the matchup they'll be expecting the ledgehop and may try to fake you out worth their landing. You did this once the first matchup and reacted quickly but ftilted after the pivot and he was able to shield, when jab and probably grab would have worked.
I use that ledge getup attack, but very sparingly and always try to make it invincible each time I use it.... I usually stick to ledgedrop uair when he's recovering low. Incincible its so free.

also I only saw a very small bit... 2 mins maybe. My apologies if this review seems off in regard to the entire set. I'll watch more when I can get wifi to work (phone)

Actually you're spot-on. Never before had I played a marth that recovered that way (just goes low, double jump just to stall, sweetspot the upB [or close to sweetspot]). I caught on but wasn't sure what to do instead, and I took big losses from performing the wrong edgeguards. Looking back I think I should have just kept refreshing invincibility on ledge when he went really low like that. The wd offstage uair has worked against all the marth's that I've played, but now I'll be aware of this recovery angle. Will [invincible] ledgedrop uair actually hit him if he's straight below ledge (exactly the position to perfectly sweetspot his upB (straightest angle) from)? I felt like the hitbox would be too far away from stage and he could come up through my hurtbox area, so I didn't try it. Or maybe ledgedrop uair while fading towards stage would work anyway. What do you think? Thanks for the tips.

EDIT: at 12:04 I finally tried the invincible ledgedrop uair, but he avoided it. What made it inappropriate for that situation, or how should I have done it differently there?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

RLD to immediate DJ uair/bair offstage gives you much more range than just ledgehopping out there and doing an aerial. And you can regrab the ledge with bair as well as uair (you can regrab the ledge from a ledgehop uair but with RLD you don't have to be frame perfect) if you drift back toward the stage after doing the move. Hardly anyone expects this as they are only familiar with the range of Ganon's ledgehop uair/bair.

You can RLD to any aerial (its like a reverse drop zone aerial) and make it back to the stage (even land on stage). RLD to uair has more range than ledgehop uair, and recovering from it is easier, but it is not fully invincible like a ledgedrop uair. RLD to dair has it's place too (ex: you can hit marth with this when he's used his jump before he is close enough to up-B and grab the ledge... sitting duck), and has more range than a drop since the center of the dair hitbox is at Ganon's heel).

RLD to aerial onstage is a great mixup like Joe pointed out. Just remember how dangerous it is (despite being the most commonly used RLD application) since you've used your jump. If you are about to fair and say "welp this isn't going to work out like I planned" waveland or airdodge instead.

RLD to dj waveland on lower platforms. Yes its possible. Works on battlefield so it'll work on some others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNowu9dQE6Y#t=0m25s
That waveland after RLD.

Dave, it seems like there's a video somewhere that demonstrates most of this

And yea, you can RLD to dj waveland on lower platforms, but it's much easier (for some strange reason) when an edge cancel is incorporated beforehand. I honestly have no idea why, but the only time I can do it is when I edge cancel a fair/dair.

Tm, watching your vids now. I can critique if you'd like.

 

[tm]

Tm, watching your vids now. I can critique if you'd like.

absolutely.

 

[-ACE-]

at 12:04 had you dropped sooner it may have hit... had you gotten to the ledge sooner it would have been an option also. His jump is sneaky but still vulnerable to that tech. I probably would have stayed on stage while mindgaming him with stuff like wd to ledge + ledgehop back to stage, wd off ledge to immediate dj to uair spike (on stage), or fake the lightshield edgehog (do it for a second) and then bair him, or empty short hops (I often sh and then waveland offstage instead of wd offstage, so with ppl I play they see the sh and are anticipating an incoming aerial and it can throw off.their decision making. I may also have incincible uair'd onstage which spikes and leaves you in a safe spot. Always keep in mind the potential risk involved when going offstage, and which situations are safer than others and why.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ tm . Vs. Beegs, I'd be doing Marth killer more just cause it's really easy and it puts pressure on marth when he's below stage. Well, ya ended up doing it for the second stock, just saying the first one could have been taken quicker if you did the marth killer. That stock you lost from the up-b was cause you went real low and he had been doing that a bit. Need I say more? Marth Killer. If he lands on stage, just tap the control stick in the direction of the stage and just dair his ass cause your grab will actually miss since he's crouching. Try to sweet-spot as much as ou can against Marth. He can really easily reach just above him if you overshoot your up-b. That fair from the respawn platform was good, but then you heavily overshot your edgeguard, marth simply up-bed to the stage and daired you while you were on your way up.

Going really low offstage against Marth is a big no-no and especially if you're down a stock. I don't see you grabbing Marth much. You can literally chaingrab Marth till like 35% if he's noob and doesn't know how to DI. Plus any followup from a down-throw Marth can't do anything but counter, so if you up-air or bair he can;'t do anything about it. Sometimes I like to just dair marth after a down-throw cause it racks up that damage, and even sometimes launches him up, meaning I can get a fair or up-air in on him. This marth didn't even try to sweetspot lmao. Rool out of or CC marth's dumb fair pressure. It's annoying but you can get around it instead of just shielding. I would have grabbed after that dair at 6:35. Tournament winner isn't really a good idea at high percents like that. You'd be surprised how often just rolling on stage at that percent messes up a scrub marth.

At 10:03 you definitely should have Marth Killer'ed here as he did the exact same recovery and you just dipped in really low, and then he comboed you into a dair that made you lose another stock. It's crucial points like that that determine where the match is going to go. Suddenly the marth learns how to play and gets you in your double jump offstage into another dair. Ouch. This is where I would slow down the match and play really defensively, making marth approach me. 10:52 you did it! You marth killer'ed, grabbed him and got a kill for it! It's a bad idea to come down with a dair on top or diagonally down to marth, he can just up-tilt or fmash you, cause that move only covers a bit of space. That side-b wasn't pleasant though, I know that feel.

Overall, you lost this set due to you using the wrong edgeguards at the wrong time. He literally recovered almost the exact same every time and it looked like you never adapted to that. I'm almost positive if all of those times Marth was off stage and if you marth killer'ed each of them, you might have just won the match from that alone, cause this marth either didn't know any other way to recover, or he just recovered low because he knew you weren't going to cover it correctly.
Your neutral game was good though and some of your conversions were nice, his neutral game was really weak and his pressure was bad too.

I don't know if you had nerves or what, but there were definitely some risks you took that you didn't need to take. Gotta play it safe. I'm sure you'll learn a bunch from this set. Scrub marths are cake, trust me.

 

[-ACE-]

"If he lands on stage, just tap the control stick in the direction of the stage and just dair his *** cause your grab will actually miss since he's crouching. Try to sweet-spot as much as ou can against Marth."

explain this dair. You mean from a ledghop? You can always grab. It would be sick to lightshield edgehog, and jump after he hits you (before you grab the ledge) and dair/bair him if you knew he was going to land on stage. Haven't tried it.

"You can literally chaingrab Marth till like 35% if he's noob and doesn't know how to DI. Plus any followup from a down-throw Marth can't do anything but counter, so if you up-air or bair he can;'t do anything about it. Sometimes I like to just dair marth after a down-throw cause it racks up that damage, and even sometimes launches him up, meaning I can get a fair or up-air in on him. This marth didn't even try to sweetspot lmao. Rool out of or CC marth's dumb fair pressure. It's annoying but you can get around it instead of just shielding."

careful.....

never rely on the chaingrab but for ONE regrab unless he DI's full behind. marth with di away and fair out or simply jump away easier than counter. If he's hitting you with counter he's been out of stun for quite a while. go for the given ftilt/uair at very low% or nair if platforms are around)... bair becomes really safe around 40% (pivot uair is faster) and fair becomes safe later on (80ish). and shielding marths fair is not that bad! hold down and in for some shield di and grab his ass! You can also uair oos between sh double fairs if he's not spaced well in addition to the roll you mentioned.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Thanks for clearing that up ACE, I was just writing down thoughts and spouting out what I thought. I'll keep those corrections in mind.

I'm almost pretty sure Marth crouches down when he lands on stage, so a ledgehop to grab when he lands might miss him. I know it does for Sheik.

 

[-ACE-]

marth never. The grab is given. sheik is easily grabbed too, you just have to wait about 1/4 of a second (and this helps when edgeguarding sheik. if you reset your invincibility on ledge and she uses her up B just about stage level.... if she just up-B's toward the center of the stage, you have the opportunity to ledgedash + grab her. You can basically do it upon reaction since the waveland of the ledgedash is so fast and you're required to delay your grab when grabbing sheik's up-B landing lag.

 

[Coastward]

dropping ganon

the age of 20XX has arrived

 

[Clocked]

Man, I'm hype for the invitational and all, but they haven't announced Ganon, and that scares the crap out of me.

 

[cptjiggles69]

And falcon too. He is very iconic!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

ganondorf has never been announced ahead of time for any smash game, and save for melee, falcon has always been a secret character.

just wait.

also tm i can't believe you lost to that marth. ):

 

[Renth]

ganondorf has never been announced ahead of time for any smash game, and save for melee, falcon has always been a secret character.

just wait.

also tm i can't believe you lost to that marth. ):

tm just needs polished, he'll be great.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Tm, rewatching your set vs beegs. I can't say anything on how to fight sheik, so I'm gonna restrain from critiquing your set with sweet. So, as was mentioned earlier, take it easy with those off stage edge guards lol. Sometimes they're good, but sometimes they make you die at zero like at 5:07.

Great job sweet spotting that double jump to the ledge, he was really trying to poke you out of it (unsuccessfully). Also, good use of tilts to stuff him out.

At 3:10, just recover over this. He'll let it go, realizing it won't hit and then chase you afterwards. A good thing to do here is drop through the platform after your up-b as well because he will most likely try to fsmash you the other way and you don't wanna get tippered.

At 3:16, you dash attacked and it got the weak hit. If you tilt after this, it hits every time. I believe it's a true combo that nobody has really taken advantage of yet. And ganon's dash attack *****.

Fountain of dreams is auto-banned in this matchup for me. Those platforms really screw ganon up and vs. a character like Marth who thrives when somebody is above him, it's bad news. That and FoD is an awful stage.

4:47, Great techs! Dude just couldn't kill you.

5:34, again, FTILT. It's awesome and would have hit.

5:37, uair here. When Marth puts on fair pressure like that, you are 100% guaranteed an up air. Just shield it and quickly throw out a sh uair.

Good gimps this match. You would have won if you hadn't tried to edge guard so aggressively.

9:40, rolling here is not a good idea. The best thing you can do in this situation is wavedash OOS and jab/grab. I do this occasionally and I don't know why I don't do it more often. Fair is also a decent option because at that spacing, you can induce a little bit of pressure. Just be careful because after you throw out the jab, a smart Marth player won't grab at that spacing, but fair you, which is guaranteed.

11:22, Nice uair here, you were looking straight at a nair

11:35, that wasn't the first time you got punished for a bair on shield. Bair is actually safe and you're either hitting too high, missing an L cancel, or trying to jab afterward. Jab afterward is guaranteed and if you don't feel comfortable with that, just buffer a roll. SH bair into double jump bair is also good, but don't use it too much. Take spidey's advice as well, and aim the edge of the hitbox at Marth's tiara- pretty much a guaranteed shield poke (I've used it and it's awesome... Ripple hates it).

As ACE said, if you had ledge dropped sooner at 12:04. Also, incorporate this more- it's fantastic vs. Marth especially when you refresh your invincibility frames. Invincible ledge drop uair will beat Marth's recovery every single time.

Sorry for taking my sweet ass time with this and good set! Your ganon gets better and better every time I watch one of your sets. Keep up the good work and come out to Champaign for SMYM (whenever the hell it is)

dropping ganon

the age of 20XX has arrived

You suck.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Renth, I like you. Or at least your online persona

When do we get to play? I've played everyone else here aside from those who just joined the threads recently.

Edit: can't believe I forgot about this- I mentioned your name to battlecow maybe a year ago or something and he **** a brick. What's the deal with the beef between you guys? To be perfectly honest, it sounds pretty funny.

 

[-ACE-]

Good luck getting mark to play. he'll likely have "plans to go hiking" or "dude its my gf's birthday" johns.



lol <3 renth

 

[Renth]

.

 

[MosthatedinNC]

Got 5h at a local with 40 entrants, went all ganon. Played a Fox, 2 puffs, a Samus, a peach, a mew2, and 2 falcos. There was a bar next to the venue, I was downing drinks while stomping *******. Quintuple dair techchase FTW . Ganon is the ****

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Got 3rd at a local high school tourney out of 12 entrants. Got a $15 Gamestop card lmao.

A lot of the guys I fought were scrubs, but a few were actually pretty decent people I've played before. A Falcon player sent me to losers but then I met him again in Loser's Semis and beat him, so that felt pretty good.

Doresy, If you're talking about covering options as in dairing for the roll but also ftilting right after the dair to cover the tech in place or no tech? Hid ftilt is pretty long lmao.

Also shoutouts to wavedash back and fsmash as well as downsmash. I love Ganon mixups

 

[MosthatedinNC]

I mean a quintuple d air tech Chase, 5 in a row

 

[MosthatedinNC]

It's one better than a quadruple

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I've never had more than a quadruple. But oh my lord does it feel good. I guess bizzaro is the king of stomp tech chases though, look for that one vs the falcon

 

[MosthatedinNC]

So I just saw the results, I actually got 5th.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i got 5th at a tournament with colbol, wizzrobe, gahtzu, pi, gage, blueg, renth, stro, and jethrotex also in attendance. had a nice ganondorf ditto with renth in losers bracket but sadly he taught me too well.

 

[MosthatedinNC]

Dang Ian, good stuff man. The guy that drove me to the tourney I was at knows you, he was saying that your bowser is the most annoying thing in the world on the way there loool. Brian O.

 

[Coastward]

eikelmann, tell me you got a set recorded with jethrotex.

hes from my region and hes one of the better peaches, so its be sweet if i could study that.

 

[Renth]

eikelmann, tell me you got a set recorded with jethrotex.

hes from my region and hes one of the better peaches, so its be sweet if i could study that.

I like 3 stocked Jethrotex game 1 in losers, I beat him barely with 1 stock game 2 on dreamland he was adapting well. He was very solid when he got close to me but I felt like he didn't have ganondorf experience. - No set was not recorded.

i got 5th at a tournament with colbol, wizzrobe, gahtzu, pi, gage, blueg, renth, stro, and jethrotex also in attendance. had a nice ganondorf ditto with renth in losers bracket but sadly he taught me too well.

Wasn't sadly at all you were the better man this day. You are very strong in Ganon Dittos. 7th place is okay for now ^_^

 

[Renth]

I've never had more than a quadruple. But oh my lord does it feel good. I guess bizzaro is the king of stomp tech chases though, look for that one vs the falcon

No one comes close to stomp tech chases compared to Chadddd.