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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Divinokage

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Well after a point your matchup knowledgeable can only help you so much. You'll need to make quicker, maybe slower decisions depending on what your opponent does... though you'll always need to do something because if you just wait usually you are preparing for an obvious attack. If the opponent sees that then he'll just circle around you in another way where he won't get hit. Not falling in patterns and making conscious decisions at all times is probably how you'll be able to defeat top players.
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
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Chris, that actually sounds like a really good idea, like a true test of their reaction time. Usually I just spam side-b in case they mess up and air dodge or something. And yea I think you're right about the DI toward the stage and grabbing the ledge.

Lol Ian I know jabs ****. Ganon's best move against fast fallers.

One more thing I've been thinking of, but haven't applied (or seen) yet: when fox/falco/falcon/marth/anybody with a viable dash dance has you in your shield and is trying to bait a roll, can you wd oos and ftilt? Does that have enough range to be a viable option?

:phone:
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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wd oos ftilt is great if you can consistently maximum length wd. but that's still shorter than a perfect waveland. I'd prefer sh, ff, perfect waveland to ftilt. if they are dashdancing you aren't being pressured immediately and you have time for an empty short up, which keeps them guessing (as long as you don't always perfect waveland after one) and you can surprise them out of the waveland. Try to stay in your shield as little as possible. retreating sh out, wd out, dash out... whatever keeps you moving. You just named the fastest chars in the game essentially so you have to stay fluid to get close to their level of mindgames (they have more agility and thus more opportunities to fake you out).

I am wasted drunk. Merry Christmas everyone.
 

Bl@ckChris

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That's how I tag kevin sometimes but he knows it and it never seems to hit him. But pp tends to invalidate most of ganons good options by always being the right distance away. If I jump he nairs me before I can do something lke retreating fair oos, but that should work against many foxes.

I played kevins fox more than his falco, so I know a lot of things that sort of work, but that he's found a work around for, so idk how useful anything I say is, because really everything ganon has can be worked around, but everything he has can also work in the right situation.

To speak semi cryptically as kevin would, you have to show fox that u can defend his approaches either with a retreating fair, a turnaround bair, a crouch cancel, or maybe even an ftilt of some sort. Once u make him second guess his own approach, you can take some space and try to box him in. Anywhere on the stage he has the advantage, but as with pretty much any character, if u can get him above you, you're doing something right. Quick movements on platforms can produce some attack angles that can cut through a linear fox. Fox is fast, but if you can find a way to limit his space, you can fight him. Foxes moves don't directly beat ganons, so while you have a hitbox out, he's forced to avoid you. Bair is big, and it lasts a while.

If he dash dances outside of your range, take another step next time and hit him for it. Make him run out of spac and stagee if he wants to play that game.

Edit: far les cryptically: wavedash oos during his approach to get free grabs. Works on falco too.
 
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I was wondering about Ganon in teams and his general role he should play depending upon his teammate.

In general, I feel he should be playing more as a.... presence on the field. Not really sure if I am wording this right, but since his mobility is fairly slow, it seems he is better suited to covering options. Handing out hard punishes with his range and overall just funneling the opponent towards the ledge or to get sandwiched between you and the other player. So, naturally this role seems better suited with a faster ground character like Sheik, or Fox which can handle a 2v1 near the ledge while Ganon takes the center stage punishing any attempts to get towards the center and overall pushing people offstage and towards the ledge.

However, I am uncertain what to do with someone like Falco or Marth as a partner since what I said before generally doesn't go well with either of them at the ledge. A single poke and they die too easily.
 

Bl@ckChris

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If the falco isn't the best player on the screen, falco ganon breaks down pretty quickly in my opinion. We can't protect him particularly well, but if he can handle himself, he can function like a fox, only he's more up and down in his combos and movement. Falco has the ability to control a horizontal layer of the screen so ganon can approach on the ground while falco shoots lasers from a platform to prevent their escape. Me and pp had some fun with that lol.

U have the right idea with ganons role though from what I can tell. He is a strong support character with big hitboxes that hit really hard so he can kill from anywhere and set things up from anywhere.

Teaming with marth sounds...hard. marth would probably have to look to get some good gimps for that team to function, which would require ganon giving him the time to do so.
 

Bl@ckChris

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Yeah kage, I'm pretty ***, but I like to believe I have a decent grasp on how the character should function.

As far as side b on shield, they often have to wavedash out to punish, but not always. I know with marth, its usually safe, and I like to dtilt foolish marths who think they can grab. they can still fair oos and do what they want afterwards, but its not first instinct for them to do it against side b.

Really it just depends on out of shield options for the character. But I doubt its ever truly safe.
 

Superspright

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In theory bros...HELL NO. Plus--it can be PS'd then reacted out of even faster than Chris is suggesting. And, it is RIDICULOUSLY easy to PS. Wait for the contact box to hit THEN hard-press shield -> Fsmash/Ftilt/Jab/C-stick UP to jump out on the first frame and wavedash, or punish with an aerial. It's very very bad. It may work on some of the lower tiers in the cast, but it won't work on better characters.
 

Divinokage

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Yeah kage, I'm pretty ***, but I like to believe I have a decent grasp on how the character should function.

As far as side b on shield, they often have to wavedash out to punish, but not always. I know with marth, its usually safe, and I like to dtilt foolish marths who think they can grab. they can still fair oos and do what they want afterwards, but its not first instinct for them to do it against side b.

Really it just depends on out of shield options for the character. But I doubt its ever truly safe.
I'd say when you are a top player, you'd have to master movement, every single WD. DD or running/walking should have a purpose behind it. I mean you always need to be doing something to destabilize your opponent.
 

PseudoTurtle

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Thanks, Ace. I've SH wavelanded into ftilt before with some success. Problem is that it isn't quite as fast as WD into ftilt, so they can prepare to cover more options (seeing as how you're in the air). WD into ftilt may take them by surprise... we'll see when I apply it.

And Chris, I'm pretty sure side-b is ridiculously safe on shield. For one, it puts the opponent out of shield grab range, but within your jab range. If they go for a grab and you can do this on reaction, dsmash/dtilt them. If they do anything else (Ripple likes to fair OOS with Marth), just jab and you automatically have control of the situation. You might even be able to do a preemptive jab on shield because they are out of shield grab range, but this one I'm not sure about.
 

Superspright

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yeah, i use side-b very situationally.
There are situations it absolutely works. Right when someone is about to hit with an aerial you use side-b for the lean back then punish the landing lag. Does NOT work on space animals so well or captain falcon but it does work in theory bros. Everything about Ganon works in theory bros, but it doesn't really work in real life. You have to read their mind. Even with good reaction time you can't beat everything or come close. You're better off getting into their head with another character and then counter-picking with Ganon. He just doesn't have real tools to win.
 

Superspright

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Hence the modification of so well, rather than leaving it as an absolute. It does work on every character--but if they are overshooting you it will not work. It's best if they are trying to space on your shield.
 

Bl@ckChris

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If ripple isn't hitting the fair oos then he's giving it too much respect and not getting oos as fast as he should.

And yeah kage, that's the aspect of my game that I truly lack that I've been trying to acquire when I can: purpose. Right now my movement isn't as good as it used to be, but I think my spacing and purpose has gotten better since gaining a little more experience. My habits involving rolling are still terrible though lol. I do way too much out of fearful instinct than out of reasonable movement/escape.
 

-ACE-

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Yeah I figured marth would be able to fair oos in that situation (not sure how jab would trade, if you actually have time). In which case I shield the fair and either a) wd oos if he spaces it well, or b) uair oos for a guaranteed hit. Remember they can shield ASDI/SDI the side-b. If marth does this he can grab ganon every time.
 

Dorsey

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Thanks, Ace. I've SH wavelanded into ftilt before with some success. Problem is that it isn't quite as fast as WD into ftilt, so they can prepare to cover more options (seeing as how you're in the air). WD into ftilt may take them by surprise... we'll see when I apply it.
i forgot to read dave's post but it's not a matter of which one is faster in terms of both at an equal starting point.. the distance and speed of the WL off the SH should exceed that of the WD(if you can wd just as long as a near perfect wl then i'd talk to bubbaking). the time of the SH should not only give him time to prepare/react but you also, and obviously not every SH is going to be a WL-ftilt...it's more so just an option to consider during your usual movement tricks/mindgames at the time. so it's just a call for you to make when you think it's applicable to catch him off-guard with it(times in which he'd underestimate the speed/length of ganon's WL combined with the range of the ftilt)... in my experience, the opportunities for catching him off-guard simply with the hitbox of the ftilt just through the speed/distance of a near perfect WL occur more frequently than a stationary wd ftilt. this of course doesn't mean that you shouldn't stationary wd ftilt when you think it'll hit.

so yeah, it is faster... and it can be done from a greater distance. being that it's not like you have committed to doing WL-ftilt until you actually WL with the intent of doing so(see first sentence).

maybe this isn't what the discussion was about and i should actually read previous posts, sorry if so, the comparison between these two options seemed weird to begin with to me though... as in they shouldn't be compared.
 

iRobinhoood

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Eikelmann are you from Russia? Was just checking the Apex Registries and it said you were. jc. THought you were from FL or something.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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65/35 in bowser's favor? lmao!!!! dude bowser is almost all gimmicks. if you're familiar with his tricks and space your **** accordingly bowser has a hard time. I won't hesitate to cg lil bow wow either.
 

Bl@ckChris

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Its...not that bad. When I played dj nintendo at rom, I couldn't quite take a match, which frustrated me, but considering how much of a better player than me he is...it was not like he was playing fox lmao

Not sure what you're getting at ian but uh...yeah....bowsers still ***.
 
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