Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Superspright]

FoD could be amazing for Ganon's if they learned how to edge-cancel all the different platform heights--especially when the platforms are SH height. You can wheel of fortune floaties like that [or land dair->uair during hitstun of dair]. And definitely look a lot scarier if you can snap multiple aerials--or even snap a SH uair then FF into waveland away to bait.

Plus, all of the platforms on FoD are very easy to waveland from SH or FH. It's a great stage for Ganon's mobility and the sides are good for his KO's.

I play CF probably suboptimally because I always go for powershields on his aerials since they can be so easily punished from powershield--my one friend has gotten so used to powershields from me that he now jabs afterward, so I just dair over the jabs now. It leads to a psychological advantage--a pretty hefty one when you are afraid to use your aerials which is your entire game anyway. I think CF just needs to get powershielded like a boss on his knee, and the second hit of nair if he doesn't FF it. If you think the aerial is gonna come in low then it's probably safer to wavedash away out of shield and try a ftilt. But I'm pretty sure powershield jab beats nearly everything he can do. And powershield side-b leads to kills.

If you screw up the powershield, just hold c-stick up during the shield sdi and wavedash away (if you aren't playing spacies). The one thing I have been wanting to work on is the powershield sdi--the traction is similar to light shielding so perhaps it can put me out of the spacies shine range if I powershield SDI the dair or nair on shield then SDI away and pick an option out of the powershield. Which is way better than powershielding 50 dairs in a game just to get subsequently shined.

 

[Jonas]

AA Falcon's Nair with up-forward tilt like a boss
Requires good spacing and reaction/reads but definitely doable.

 

[Superspright]

I feel like my tilts get baited like crazy nowadays. As committed as he can get I still feel like he can force me to throw out that tilt too early. Also--with captain falcon's super good DI you should get used to uairing on stage to scare him back then ledge-cancel it for the edge-hog. Works every time. Totally unbeatable given that they can't contest the uair, and the moment it's over they go for ledge you are already on it.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

samus' shield. Just attack it.

I do that. Then he up-b's.

 

[Jonas]

You have such long range with the Forward Air that you can hit her shield and not be in Up B range when you land. Just space your attacks better

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hey guys, just as a heads up, amsah and pewpewu are pretty good.

if you make it to round 2 pools at a national, hope that you don't get them.

lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Pewpewu *****. Def afraid to play him

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, he was really good. i wasn't exactly planning to make it to the bracket anyway, but having him and amsah was a definite roadblock. getting 3rd behind them was all i could do. i wish i would've paid more attention to his set vs amsah.

 

[Divinokage]

FoD could be amazing for Ganon's if they learned how to edge-cancel all the different platform heights--especially when the platforms are SH height. You can wheel of fortune floaties like that [or land dair->uair during hitstun of dair]. And definitely look a lot scarier if you can snap multiple aerials--or even snap a SH uair then FF into waveland away to bait.

Plus, all of the platforms on FoD are very easy to waveland from SH or FH. It's a great stage for Ganon's mobility and the sides are good for his KO's.

I play CF probably suboptimally because I always go for powershields on his aerials since they can be so easily punished from powershield--my one friend has gotten so used to powershields from me that he now jabs afterward, so I just dair over the jabs now. It leads to a psychological advantage--a pretty hefty one when you are afraid to use your aerials which is your entire game anyway. I think CF just needs to get powershielded like a boss on his knee, and the second hit of nair if he doesn't FF it. If you think the aerial is gonna come in low then it's probably safer to wavedash away out of shield and try a ftilt. But I'm pretty sure powershield jab beats nearly everything he can do. And powershield side-b leads to kills.

If you screw up the powershield, just hold c-stick up during the shield sdi and wavedash away (if you aren't playing spacies). The one thing I have been wanting to work on is the powershield sdi--the traction is similar to light shielding so perhaps it can put me out of the spacies shine range if I powershield SDI the dair or nair on shield then SDI away and pick an option out of the powershield. Which is way better than powershielding 50 dairs in a game just to get subsequently shined.

All that just seems like added bonuses Ganon can do to maybe increase his tricks.. however if your fundamentals are bad then it's not really good to do these things.

 

[Wake]

Kirby/Ganon isn't thaaat bad.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

o **** blackchris i forgot to give u a shout out.

dude it was mad fun playing u, your ganon was shockingly fast it was pretty cool. i even think u did some moonwalking with him (lucky for me i have a friend who moonwalks with cf all the time so i was ready for it) also it was pretty cool how i bumped into u by accident on the first day since u were someone who i challenged online. anyway sorry for the late shout out, there were just so many people i played

 

[Superspright]

All that just seems like added bonuses Ganon can do to maybe increase his tricks.. however if your fundamentals are bad then it's not really good to do these things.

I agree fundamentals are extremely important. But Ganon's terribly slow. Anything that can make him faster is worth learning and exploring. There is no reason not to learn shield-dropping, or how to edge-cancel the up-b or literally every move. He's not safe when he does stuff. Almost never is. Adding a couple of these 'trix' may make him safe(r).

 

[Divinokage]

That's true but even if you go for edge-cancels, it could get predictable. I guess you'll have to do it in a way where you are in a good position to do it because you cannot do it all the time for sure.

 

[_Rocky_]

Some stuff about Kirby vs Ganon (it's probably my best matchup with Kirby, for the record):

- Use your aerials carefully. Kirby can get inside Ganon's spacing VERY quickly and has good answers to all fair/bair spacings Ganon has at his disposal.

- Kirby's fair actually has 4 hits if it's timed so that he lands immediately after the 3rd hit. This 4th hit ***** crouch cancelling so don't do that.

- Utilt is Kirby's main combo starter. Miss a CC and you'll probably be put offstage or receive a lot of damage. Also note that it is in many respects like Fox/Falco's utilts so trying to beat it out with a dair is risky.

- When getting shield pressured, rolling away is probably the best option. Kirby isn't fast enough to punish it, at least not in NTSC.

- Recovering vs Kirby is hard but that's not exactly big news. Unless you come down with an up b from high above the stage you will get baired/uaired/dsmashed off again guaranteed.

- As Kage said, fight Kirby with mostly ground moves. Tilts and jabs will be too strong for him to CC pretty quickly and once he's in the air you're good to go. If you can get a grab you'll probably put on a lot of damage but watch out for his crouch.

- You can also use your platform mobility to bait Kirby into jumping. As soon as you can hit him with an aerial you have the advantage.

- Kirby is pretty simple to edgeguard. Just hit him with a well-timed bair, uair or dair if he's coming from below (he can't really protect himself from these moves while recovering) or if he goes high, just wait for him to come down and hit him offstage again lol.

Hope that helps mooney

 

[Divinokage]

Well if Kirby's utilt is kinda the same as Fox/Falco then you can space backjump Dair as the utilt starts to counter it.. I think that works. I mean the Dair must be facing backwards not forward... the hitbox is different so that the utilt won't hit.

 

[_Rocky_]

True, haven't really tested it though but it should work. Just don't **** it up

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Some stuff about Kirby vs Ganon (it's probably my best matchup with Kirby, for the record):

- Use your aerials carefully. Kirby can get inside Ganon's spacing VERY quickly and has good answers to all fair/bair spacings Ganon has at his disposal.

- Kirby's fair actually has 4 hits if it's timed so that he lands immediately after the 3rd hit. This 4th hit ***** crouch cancelling so don't do that.

- Utilt is Kirby's main combo starter. Miss a CC and you'll probably be put offstage or receive a lot of damage. Also note that it is in many respects like Fox/Falco's utilts so trying to beat it out with a dair is risky.

- When getting shield pressured, rolling away is probably the best option. Kirby isn't fast enough to punish it, at least not in NTSC.

- Recovering vs Kirby is hard but that's not exactly big news. Unless you come down with an up b from high above the stage you will get baired/uaired/dsmashed off again guaranteed.

- As Kage said, fight Kirby with mostly ground moves. Tilts and jabs will be too strong for him to CC pretty quickly and once he's in the air you're good to go. If you can get a grab you'll probably put on a lot of damage but watch out for his crouch.

- You can also use your platform mobility to bait Kirby into jumping. As soon as you can hit him with an aerial you have the advantage.

- Kirby is pretty simple to edgeguard. Just hit him with a well-timed bair, uair or dair if he's coming from below (he can't really protect himself from these moves while recovering) or if he goes high, just wait for him to come down and hit him offstage again lol.

Hope that helps mooney

jaaaa! tackkk så mycket!

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's all good nagace/mr.owl. just glad my ganon could be memorable. your peach most certainly was as well. it woulda been cool to get a "superserious" set with you. maybe some other time.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

yea hopefully next time maybe a mm or something. also it seems a brawl player is already using my tag so now i need to come up with something else so next time i guess i wont be mr owl anymore

 

[Wake]

You're Benny now.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

got 5th at the monthly florida tournament. i'm moving up!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Congrats on coming 5th.

So now that Kage isn't going to be going to many tournaments, is there anyone left playing Green Ganon? If not, does that mean we can declare victory for the color purple?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Green.... lives.... on....

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You aren't a Ganon main. You don't count.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there is... another... skywalker!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

So Kage has a sister who plays Green Ganon? I wasn't expecting that.

I've been experimenting with SH sideB recently. It seems like a useful thing to throw in occasionally when the think I'm going to SH Fair or Nair, just to confuse them. Plus, it's fun to use. The only problem is I can't Lcancel it.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Magus has claimed Purple Ganondorf for years.

Renth and I co-claim Blue Ganondorf. ;D

 

[Jonas]

I sometimes play green Ganon =D

 

[Nujabes]

Red/ Blue ganon ftw

 

[Nujabes]

Who is ganon's worst match up? and hardest match up to win?

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I've been using default Ganon lately.

 

[Divinokage]

Who is ganon's worst match up? and hardest match up to win?

Fox and Sheik probably.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'd say Sheik. When I've played Fox's and Sheiks of comprible levels, I've found the Sheik harder.

That being said, PP's Ganon is my worst matchup. It's the only matchup where I'm consistently 4 stocked.

 

[Divinokage]

Well Sheik will always be hard for you no matter what level you are, Fox is a lot easier to deal with at lower levels because they aren't anywhere near as fast nor have the technical consistency. Fox at high level is really hard though.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

what is the secret to being able to read people like you and emilio do, roustane?

having got 5th recently at this tournament, i realised something. such a large percent are just playing the game. there's so much more to it than just wavedashing and thinking about edgeguarding someone while playing a match.

there's something i'm missing that pro players do, and i really need to learn it.

 

[Divinokage]

Uhh.. lots of things. Knowing what they are trying to look for in certain positions, drilling those situations a million times, the experience in tournament to stay consistent with what you trained for. At some point, it's easy to know if they are trying to DD bait you into doing something, or DDing to look for a grab instead... or then knowing when he's going to aerial.. it's all about that positioning in between you and him. It's also possible to do your own things to force reactions out of your opponent so that it doesn't require an insane amount of focus lol. Like you faired someone's shield, what's his options after that? Already you are reducing the possibilities for him.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i guess i need someone to show me these things in person, because i'm really bad with this text stuff. i'm a terrible learner.

can you show me examples of stuff in certain videos?

 

[Divinokage]

Omg.. Uhh.. I can try but that's hard for me. lol. The way I think is usually to account for at least 3 options and it should be like that at high level. You cover options with your moves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHkT8T-jJjo&feature=player_detailpage#t=77s

1:18 - I drop down immediately because I know it's a bad place for Ganon especially vs Falcon. Being above anyone as a generality sucks. I see him dash away so I jab him to see what he does.

1:20 - He jabs me at low % and I know I can CC jab him back to interrupt that since it's Ganon fastest move. I tried to continue poking him but it missed and he rolls behind me and Nairs but I was still CCing so I didn't go anywhere and jabs me again which allowed me to grab him instead because at this point I'll probably get a bigger reward by doing that if I succeed in the techchase.

1:24 - I didn't follow up anything with the downthrow for some reason maybe I missed input it or didn't feel like I could've followed up with anything damaging but at the very least he had already some pressure so I jumped back behind him and attempted to grab which worked because any other move would've of been blocked anyhow.

1:26 - Since he DIed sort of inward the downthrow I was able to reverse jab to backair combo because I think he tried to jump to go away from the pressure. Why backair was good in this position because Falcon has no answers to counter that especially like that... If he blocked then I could still keep trying to make stay close to the ledge. When a character is close to the ledge, he can't DD and has to move around somehow by either rolling or jumping or counter-attacking with a strong priority move.. but Bair beats Nair and pretty much all of Falcon's moves during this position because he didn't have time to throw anything else otherwise. You see? I accounted for the stun jab does too.

1:28 - So then he's off stage and pretty much HAS to DJ to get back on, I predicted that and jumped off-stage Faired him as soon as he used it to finish a quick stock.

That's only one stock =P

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Could you do the other 3 stocks as well? Maybe even the rest of the set? I still don't understand. Are you saying you knew what he would do, which is why you opened with defensive CC jabs and grabs?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I believe Kage predicted what he was going to do, and Kage had enough experience that his prediction was correct.

In the Melee world record chat/video, IHSB and Zoler both suggested using L for shielding in order to make WD OoS easier. Does anyone here use that? It seems like a good idea, so I'm going to try it out tomorrow.