How to make sheik/zelda a balanced character in brawl

[Micahc]

They should play as two stand alone characters IMO, just make Zelda not crap and nerf/butcher/weaken/remove the Slap.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

They should play as two stand alone characters IMO, just make Zelda not crap and nerf/butcher/weaken/remove the Slap.

I think they should both be playable as stand alone characters; however, they should, individually, be at least slightly subpar individuals. It should only be as a team that they are amazing.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

they should, individually, be at least slightly subpar individuals. It should only be as a team that they are amazing.

You're asking the impossible. I've already accepted the fact and have said my farewells to Zelda the moment Sheik was confirmed. Why can't you all do the same?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You're asking the impossible. I've already accepted the fact and have said my farewells to Zelda the moment Sheik was confirmed. Why can't you all do the same?

Um... why are you posting here?

1) Whether or not you believe it will happen is immeaterial. This thread is for what should be improved

2) Your defeatest attitude is unwanted and unfounded. There is no reason to think that sakurai wouldn't buff poor characters and nerf godly ones... in fact, it happened in the transition from smash64 to melee... just look at kirby ness and pika

 

[Luthien]

Um... why are you posting here?

1) Whether or not you believe it will happen is immeaterial. This thread is for what should be improved

2) Your defeatest attitude is unwanted and unfounded. There is no reason to think that sakurai wouldn't buff poor characters and nerf godly ones... in fact, it happened in the transition from smash64 to melee... just look at kirby ness and pika

Oh, wow. I love you.

1) Amen. I agree on the whole with the nerf the fair thing. If they nerf the fair and buff/alter the chain, I'll be one happy camper. That move had a lot of potential in concept: one big disjointed hitbox. If they made it either slightly easier to control or longer, that's all it would take to make the move effective. Of course, if it isn't longer, it should have less lag and start up time to compensate. Also, I'd like to see momentum become a factor. If you swing the chain in one big circle, it should have more knockback than simply poking. But that's just my mind wandering.

2) *Cheers madly*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Oh, wow. I love you.

1) Amen. I agree on the whole with the nerf the fair thing. If they nerf the fair and buff/alter the chain, I'll be one happy camper. That move had a lot of potential in concept: one big disjointed hitbox. If they made it either slightly easier to control or longer, that's all it would take to make the move effective. Of course, if it isn't longer, it should have less lag and start up time to compensate. Also, I'd like to see momentum become a factor. If you swing the chain in one big circle, it should have more knockback than simply poking. But that's just my mind wandering.

2) *Cheers madly*

I agree about the momentum... I just worry that it might be more trouble to the programmers than it would be worth

 

[Luthien]

I agree about the momentum... I just worry that it might be more trouble to the programmers than it would be worth

True. I can dream...

Seriously, though. I wasn't aware of it, but it seems Melee was rushed. But now Brawl has time. They can delay it again if they want. I wouldn't be surprised to see this kind of effort and detail put into the game. But then, I'd be more suprised if it was in than if it wasn't. And the chain is DEFINITELY not worth another delay...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

for perfection, I would wait an eternity, but I do not have an eternity, so I'll settle for excellence

 

[Ztarfish]

Well if Sheik is to be stripped of nearly all killing moves, why shouldn't she have one of the deadliest in her back pocket? And don't forget that characters live relatively more easily then they did in Melee because they're so floaty, so a semi-spike wouldn't do as much damage if done only once, maybe twice in a combo.

Because once Sheik starts attacking you, it's freaking impossible to get one hit in. It's so frustrating to have Sheik beat you into submission and then fling you up into the air with one of her million F-air setup moves and then knock you out of the park.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

so that it would behoove you to change into Zelda... which was kinda the whole point.

Point: Sheik's forward air as it was in Melee should not belong to ANY character in ANY Smash game, least of all a fast character with a million ways to combo into it such as Sheik.

The fact that it's somewhat less effective against floaties means nothing, it devastates them as much as anyone else when edgeguarded by it. And Sheik's edgeguarding was ridiculously good.

Sheik should still have a few not-so-efficient "killing moves" like what Peach has in Melee, but that forward air better be gone forever.

Giving Sheik her forward air in Brawl again wouldn't balance anything, it would just make Zelda obsolete and make Sheik a retardedly powerful character (again).

Because once Sheik starts attacking you, it's freaking impossible to get one hit in. It's so frustrating to have Sheik beat you into submission and then fling you up into the air with one of her million F-air setup moves and then knock you out of the park.

Ok, so nerf her fAir, but don't butcher it. I still think it should be her best killing move. And if the player is good enough to not be juggled into the prime spot for a fAir (remember that characters are incredibly floaty this time around) then players will definitely find the need to transform back into Zelda with her numerous killing moves.

The fact that you're saying Sheik should basically have NO killing moves just doesn't make sense to me. What if a Sheik just can't find the time to transform back? The player's going to need that move as a safeguard. Any character with no killers is just a laughable concept, and Sheik and Zelda, though joined simply through the push of a button, are still considered two different/separate characters.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ok, so nerf her fAir, but don't butcher it. I still think it should be her best killing move. And if the player is good enough to not be juggled into the prime spot for a fAir (remember that characters are incredibly floaty this time around) then players will definitely find the need to transform back into Zelda with her numerous killing moves.

The fact that you're saying Sheik should basically have NO killing moves just doesn't make sense to me. What if a Sheik just can't find the time to transform back? The player's going to need that move as a safeguard. Any character with no killers is just a laughable concept, and Sheik and Zelda, though joined simply through the push of a button, are still considered two different/separate characters.

Comboing floaties into the forward air was -not- a problem for Sheik in Melee unless it was Jigglypuff(PAL or otherwise).

I'm not saying Sheik should have NO kill moves, but they should be on the weaker/difficult-to-hit end of the spectrum, which is basically how all of Peach's "kill moves" work in Melee. The more powerful kill moves should belong to Zelda, but Sheik should have just enough KO power to be standalone when she needs to, or to create an opening to Transform.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Well, how about it's just as good, but only with a sweet-spot? Otherwise it'll just be nerfed.

EDIT:
And just remember when you talk about floaty characters, that Sheik will most likely be floaty as well. Trust me when I say that Sakurai has put deep thought into balancing this game, and I'm sure Sheik never left his mind.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Well, how about it's just as good, but only with a sweet-spot? Otherwise it'll just be nerfed.

EDIT:
And just remember when you talk about floaty characters, that Sheik will most likely be floaty as well. Trust me when I say that Sakurai has put deep thought into balancing this game, and I'm sure Sheik never left his mind.

It shouldn't be "just as good" period. Speed characters who have an absurd amount of control over their combo placement have no place for a strong, easy-to-hit aerial that also happens to send at a perfect horizontal angle (which no other f-air in Melee had). If you really haven't come to terms with it, there are several reasons why Sheik's forward air is one of the most ******** attacks in Melee.

1. Absurdly low sending angle - this is the big one. Survival in Melee was heavily based on using DI against KO moves. Since the angle of the fair is so low, even with perfect DI, death is possible at very low percents. And Sheik could very easily gimp players with the forward air without them being able to do much about it.
2. Decently strong
3. Range
4. Priority
5. Speed
6. Usable to end virtually every combo string

Requiring a sweetspot for the fair will not make it "fair." It would only make finishing blows with Sheik require another ounce or two of thought, and still won't fix the issue of such a strike being overpowered, especially in the hands of Sheik and not Zelda, who's *supposed* to have more efficient KO moves but be slower than Sheik at the same time, making any hit a more difficult task, thus balanced.

If Sheik still has to have that same f-air, making it sending angle higher, somewhat reducing
knockback, and giving it a somewhat smaller hitbox (as it is, it outprioritizes Peach's f-air. And she swings her friggin' crown at you) will bring it in line with most other, similar moves. There's a lot to be said about the current state of a move when you can *triple nerf* it all with significant effects, and yet all that does is bring it in line with other, similar moves that have the purpose of KO'ing.

Also, Sheik being floaty herself in Brawl has nothing to do with the fact that, unless her moveset is entirely reworked, she will still destroy floaties almost exactly as she does in Melee.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It shouldn't be "just as good" period. Speed characters who have an absurd amount of control over their combo placement have no place for a strong, easy-to-hit aerial that also happens to send at a perfect horizontal angle (which no other f-air in Melee had). If you really haven't come to terms with it, there are several reasons why Sheik's forward air is one of the most ******** attacks in Melee.

1. Absurdly low sending angle - this is the big one. Survival in Melee was heavily based on using DI against KO moves. Since the angle of the fair is so low, even with perfect DI, death is possible at very low percents. And Sheik could very easily gimp players with the forward air without them being able to do much about it.
2. Decently strong
3. Range
4. Priority
5. Speed
6. Usable to end virtually every combo string

Requiring a sweetspot for the fair will not make it "fair." It would only make finishing blows with Sheik require another ounce or two of thought, and still won't fix the issue of such a strike being overpowered, especially in the hands of Sheik and not Zelda, who's *supposed* to have more efficient KO moves but be slower than Sheik at the same time, making any hit a more difficult task, thus balanced.

If Sheik still has to have that same f-air, making it sending angle higher, somewhat reducing
knockback, and giving it a somewhat smaller hitbox (as it is, it outprioritizes Peach's f-air. And she swings her friggin' crown at you) will bring it in line with most other, similar moves. There's a lot to be said about the current state of a move when you can *triple nerf* it, and yet it will still be good at KOs.

Also, Sheik being floaty herself in Brawl has nothing to do with the fact that, unless her moveset is entirely reworked, she will still destroy floaties almost exactly as she does in Melee.

Agreed. Pretty much wholeheartedly so. I'd rather they just uber nerf the knockback and priority more instead of nerfing the angle priority and knockback. Te angle, though scary, would be substantially less so if it didn't really have a chance of KOing you until 200 or so damage. And since preliminay reports say that DIing has a much greater effect in Brawl, that should effectively counter the scary angle... but I agree... Zelda's lightning kick is what deserved that angle if anything.... it would have been a godly move in melee, but sadly that would have scarcely chanhged her teir she was that bad

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Well if Sheik is to be stripped of nearly all killing moves, why shouldn't she have one of the deadliest in her back pocket?

I felt this should be addressed for some reason. In her back pcoket =/= always equipped in the main hand, ready to fire. Sheik's usmash tipper in Melee would be the best example of an effective KO move "in her back pocket."

 

[Iris]

If Sheik's allowed to have a great KO move as easy to place as her Fair then Zelda had better have at least one fantastic combo that's near impossible to get out of. However, that makes them a lot less dependent on eachother, and as much as I wouldn't mind that, it may not be the direction they're going for.

I'd like to see her Fair fall back in knocback and send people at higher angles, making DI a lot easier. Priority and range isn't a big deal to me, because neither are that important when you're stuck in a Sheik combo. The speed should remain the same.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

any character that spams a move for KOs should be stripped of said move.

Sheik's fair
Fox's shine/usmash
Marth's fsmash
peach's dsmash
c.falcon's knee
falco's dair


oh... hmm... look at that... that's the top ranked characters... go figure

 

[Iris]

Zelda's Fair/Bair would be on that list if it weren't the only thing she had going for her.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I still think that Sheik and Zelda don't need to work symbiotically. I feel that they should just buff Zelda rediculously and make her a good fighter on her own, non-dependant on Sheik for any reason.

Let Sheik stay untouched; make basically every move of Zelda's a killer.

 

[Iris]

I'd be fine if Sheik was the same if most everyone one else, especially Zelda, were heavily buffed. The thing is though, I think they're aiming for synergetic gameplay. Why else stick them together?

Seeing as though Young Link and Dr Mario got into Melee, I doubt they did it because they're the same person.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I still think that Sheik and Zelda don't need to work symbiotically. I feel that they should just buff Zelda rediculously and make her a good fighter on her own, non-dependant on Sheik for any reason.

Let Sheik stay untouched; make basically every move of Zelda's a killer.

if she's untouched, she'd still be godly whether she's stand alone or not... probably even better since she'd get a downB move.

characters that can tag in and out at will wer obviously meant to be used trategically, otherwise they wouldn't be linked.... Samus and Zamus being the exception as Zamus's appearance is largely dpendent upon luck of smashballs

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

if she's untouched, she'd still be godly whether she's stand alone or not... probably even better since she'd get a downB move.

characters that can tag in and out at will wer obviously meant to be used trategically, otherwise they wouldn't be linked.... Samus and Zamus being the exception as Zamus's appearance is largely dpendent upon luck of smashballs

I meant that they should still be linked.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Let Sheik stay untouched;

somebody needs to lay off the smokey smokey

Or at least be reading the finer points of my posts. Or any of my posts.

A nerfed Sheik will still be a good character, but in her current form she just has TOO MUCH killing potential. When you're trying to judge the overall balance of Sheik, you can't just take the attached Zelda into account, you also need to look at the remainder of the cast which Sheik has also trodden, bulldozed, and purged with fire and salt.

Even if Sheik doesn't have super powerful kill moves but instead "average" kill moves, remember that it's flippin' Sheik. Sheik's speed alone means she will not have much difficulty in hitting her opponents, and thus will still be able to kill/edgeguard, but this time it would be with a hard earned fight and respectably high percentages, and not low percent gimp kills.

Sheik = combo/damage machine, below average KO ability, speedy
Zelda = single hit/damage machine, exceptional KO ability, speeded up so she can land hits and defend herself.

A change to this type of formula won't suddenly make Sheik completely dependent on Zelda for killing. Zelda would just be better at it, would would be the ideal scenario. That is, Zelda and Sheik both being equally effective, but not godly, standalone characters, but one is more powerful than the other in a healthy number of given situations. Don't let your compulsion prevent you from seeing my posts as otherwise.

 

[Luthien]

What would happen if they seriously weakened Sheik's air game and buffed Zelda's? Some people are better in the air, so this would actually make the Zelda/Sheik choice depend on different situations. For example, Ganondorf destroyed Zelda mid-air in Melee, but Sheik could hold her own (I think. Please correct.) If Zelda's air game got buffed, and Sheik's nerfed, Zelda would be far better agains Ganon than her alter-ego. What I'm trying to say is: what if Zelda was better against arial/floaty types of people than Sheik, but Sheik was better against others? That seems like a simple 'situational' concept.

 

[Micahc]

somebody needs to lay off the smokey smokey

Or at least be reading the finer points of my posts. Or any of my posts.

A nerfed Sheik will still be a good character, but in her current form she just has TOO MUCH killing potential. When you're trying to judge the overall balance of Sheik, you can't just take the attached Zelda into account, you also need to look at the remainder of the cast which Sheik has also trodden, bulldozed, and purged with fire and salt.

Even if Sheik doesn't have super powerful kill moves but instead "average" kill moves, remember that it's flippin' Sheik. Sheik's speed alone means she will not have much difficulty in hitting her opponents, and thus will still be able to kill/edgeguard, but this time it would be with a hard earned fight and respectably high percentages, and not low percent gimp kills.

Sheik = combo/damage machine, below average KO ability, speedy
Zelda = single hit/damage machine, exceptional KO ability, speeded up so she can land hits and defend herself.

A change to this type of formula won't suddenly make Sheik completely dependent on Zelda for killing. Zelda would just be better at it, would would be the ideal scenario. That is, Zelda and Sheik both being equally effective, but not godly, standalone characters, but one is more powerful than the other in a healthy number of given situations. Don't let your compulsion prevent you from seeing my posts as otherwise.

I want them as both stand alone characters, what I would personally want for Sheik is an excellent edge guard game. You don't kill you opponents off the sides, but you get them to 100% or more, smash them off the edge and needle them, slap them, spike them, or do whatever you can to keep them off. Of course, she'd need a way around characters with godly recoveries...

 

[Stratocaster]

nerf sheik's fair
nerf sheik's dash attack
nerf sheik's up smash
...
nerf sheik's aerials
nerf sheik's jabs
nerf sheik's tilts
nerf sheik's smashes
nerf sheik's grab
nerf sheik's throws
nerf sheik's needles
nerf sheik's recovery
nerf sheik's air dodge
nerf sheik's roll
nerf sheik's sidestep
make sheik slower
add more startup time and lag to her moves (especially aerials)
decrease her combo ability
... ok now she's balanced with the other characters
/exaggeration

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

somebody needs to lay off the smokey smokey

Or at least be reading the finer points of my posts. Or any of my posts.

A nerfed Sheik will still be a good character, but in her current form she just has TOO MUCH killing potential. When you're trying to judge the overall balance of Sheik, you can't just take the attached Zelda into account, you also need to look at the remainder of the cast which Sheik has also trodden, bulldozed, and purged with fire and salt.

Even if Sheik doesn't have super powerful kill moves but instead "average" kill moves, remember that it's flippin' Sheik. Sheik's speed alone means she will not have much difficulty in hitting her opponents, and thus will still be able to kill/edgeguard, but this time it would be with a hard earned fight and respectably high percentages, and not low percent gimp kills.

Sheik = combo/damage machine, below average KO ability, speedy
Zelda = single hit/damage machine, exceptional KO ability, speeded up so she can land hits and defend herself.

A change to this type of formula won't suddenly make Sheik completely dependent on Zelda for killing. Zelda would just be better at it, would would be the ideal scenario. That is, Zelda and Sheik both being equally effective, but not godly, standalone characters, but one is more powerful than the other in a healthy number of given situations. Don't let your compulsion prevent you from seeing my posts as otherwise.

completely agreed... I also like luthian's point about situational uses more than just dealing damage or KOing... it could be interesting

 

[Dynamism]

I truely think that with the balance they tend to acheive among the entire roster, that match-ups will be a key to victory. Given that Zelda is in fact two characters, she has an advantage in this departement. i don't see what the complaining about is regarding the LACK of DownB, her DownB is 3 more specials and an entire MS!!!! Zelda and Sheik should almost be lower tier characters intentionally to balance this out. Of course that's an exageration but it's not far from the truth. Even in melee, Sheik having trouble? Switch characters mid battle, problem solved. This trait is underrapreiciated.

 

[Yeroc]

I don't think I've seen this mentioned, but you know what would probably go the farthest towards making Sheik and Zelda an integrated character unit? Lower Transformation time. Think about it. Balancing issues aside, under assumption that they'll be at the very least addressed somewhat, the big wall in most peoples minds between switching characters in the middle of a fight is the utter loss of momentum you suffer for it. Who wouldn't like to pull a Sheik combo then tech chase with a lightning foot? This is really the issue here, and I think that no matter how much better Zelda gets, or how worse Sheik, this division will continue to be insurmountable until and unless the time it takes to affect a transition is modified to be competitively viable.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

alot of ppl said this already yeroc :D
but its good if you put it into the first post :D

 

[MasterGary]

I don't find anything dramatic is needed to "fix" Zelda. Just give her the same sort of treatment they did to Bowser, mainly making her faster and have quicker moves. Change a couple of her moves, and she'll be ust fine.

Just a thought but imagine if transform happened as quick as a shine O_O

 

[Yeroc]

Yomi, I admittedly only skimmed over this topic briefly before posting that, so I'm glad to see other people are thinking of it as well.

 

[ZenJestr]

This is what I think:

Zelda:
-Uair should have a bigger hitbox
-Dair IIRC Meteors if contact is made in the first few frames (correct me if I'm wrong...)...I think it should be a Spike instead of a Meteor...
-Fsmash and Usmash should do more damage and knockback when you time them right...(like Sheik Fair knockback)
-Din's Fire should have a bigger hitbox and do more damage
-Farore's Wind should have superarmor frames during the frames you can be hit...
-Peach shouldnt be the only princess with a speed buff...
-more damage to all of her attacks pretty much

Sheik:
-most of her attacks should do damage ranging from 1-5% with Smash attacks doing 7-9%...10-11% if charged...
-her needles have less priority...and less total damage w/ a fully charged Needle Storm
-her chain should actually be useful (maybe some tether properties?)
-decreased knockback to all of her moves (but not as exaggerated as some people want it to be)
-bigger hitbox in the explosion of her UpB

 

[MasterGary]

This is what I think:

Zelda:
-Uair should have a bigger hitbox
-Dair IIRC Meteors if contact is made in the first few frames (correct me if I'm wrong...)...I think it should be a Spike instead of a Meteor...
-Fsmash and Usmash should do more damage and knockback when you time them right...(like Sheik Fair knockback)
-Din's Fire should have a bigger hitbox and do more damage
-Farore's Wind should have superarmor frames during the frames you can be hit...
-Peach shouldnt be the only princess with a speed buff...
-more damage to all of her attacks pretty much

Sheik:
-most of her attacks should do damage ranging from 1-5% with Smash attacks doing 7-9%...10-11% if charged...
-her needles have less priority...and less total damage w/ a fully charged Needle Storm
-her chain should actually be useful (maybe some tether properties?)
-decreased knockback to all of her moves (but not as exaggerated as some people want it to be)
-bigger hitbox in the explosion of her UpB

You realy want them to overdo Zelda, and make Sheik unplayable?

 

[Ztarfish]

Sheik should just basically have crap aeriels. Aeriels aren't really combo friendly attacks, so why should the combo-queen have any good ones? If they nerfed her aeriels to oblivion, (ok maybe not oblivion), she would be much more the combo queen than the godly ninja.

Without her aeriels, Sheik doesn't really have many kill moves other than the tipper'd Usmash.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Sheik and Zelda will only work together well if the down b move is instant or has massive invincibility frames. As it is now, it is suicidally unsafe. And regardless of how they nerf Sheik, Zelda needs tons of buffs to give you a reason to use her at all.

I don't really think that Zelda and Sheik were made to be played as tag characters anyway. Zelda becomes Sheik because she does so in OoT, not necessarily because they were meant to be used together. If they were made to switch regularly as everyone believes, the down b would be much more safe, Sheik would lack kill moves instead of having tons of kill moves as well as combo moves, and Zelda wouldn't be so generally bad. I don't see how everyone can just assume what the developers were thinking considering how different this is from the actual game. The game manual and the trophy are not enough to state that Zelda and Sheik were made to be interdependent.
Do you guys really think that the programmers messed up the original plan that bad? Do you think that anything will change in Brawl?

 

[Ztarfish]

Brawl WILL be different. It just depends on how different it's going to be.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Brawl WILL be different. It just depends on how different it's going to be.

Sheik will likely get nerfed, like Fox, and Zelda will hopefully get buffed, but guess what?
One will still be better than the other and people will still just use the better one. They will never be truly interdependent until they literally remove some moves from their respective movesets so that you literally have to switch to have access to certain moves, and you know that's not going to happen.
Smash is not a balanced game and likely wasn't meant to be. Zelda and Sheik obviously weren't meant to balance each other out.

 

[Bowserlick]

There are so good points on this thread. Here is my take on the scenario.

If Zelda and Sheik combined their stats, they would be the perfect character. But the beauty of balancing the perfect character is allowing them only several advantages of their many advantages at one specific time.

Zelda should have power and range. Her magic blasts should have a large radius complete with KO potential. Yet the strike against her is that she trades any sense of mobility for these traits. Zelda is a poor runner and a poor jumper. Plus she is light, so although she contains power and range she is no heavyweight.

Sheik on the other hand has plenty of mobility. She can run, jump, dodge, and roll with ease. This makes her good at keeping together combos. The trade off on this side of the coin, is that she has no KO potential. She can juggle characters to 300 percent if she wants, but she will still have trouble getting the final kill.

Balancing Zelda:

* Her explosive attacks should have more range and more power. Din's fire and her Up aerial should become feared.
* Her forward Smash should have more range.
*Her grab needs to come out quick. People have to be careful when going close to Zelda.
*Her down aerial should be different and useful.
*Her recovery move should have invincible frames while disappearing and should be faster.

These improvements make Zelda a highly defensive character. She can punish a careless opponent who comes in too close but has difficulty chasing them down. Din's fire allows her to convince her opponents to move in closer or else get blown up. And her crystal shield attack can reflect any character who tries to put on projectile pressure of his or her own.

Balancing Sheik:

*No KO potential in any of her attacks
*Needles do not stun unless fully charged and do not block other projectiles. However, needles can still deal damage if shielded. For this to be fair the needles do less damage.
*Dash attack toned down, but still pops. Just do not make it spammable.
*Chain whip should be able to crack like a real whip. Pull it back and then let go for a good slap that deals decent damage and stuns. If not done right then it deals very little damage and can be punished like current chain.

TRANSFORM IMPROVEMENT

Two ways to go with this.

1. Make the transform instant.
2. Make the transform an attack.

 

[OrlanduEX]

There are so good points on this thread. Here is my take on the scenario.

If Zelda and Sheik combined their stats, they would be the perfect character. But the beauty of balancing the perfect character is allowing them only several advantages of their many advantages at one specific time.

Zelda should have power and range. Her magic blasts should have a large radius complete with KO potential. Yet the strike against her is that she trades any sense of mobility for these traits. Zelda is a poor runner and a poor jumper. Plus she is light, so although she contains power and range she is no heavyweight.

Sheik on the other hand has plenty of mobility. She can run, jump, dodge, and roll with ease. This makes her good at keeping together combos. The trade off on this side of the coin, is that she has no KO potential. She can juggle characters to 300 percent if she wants, but she will still have trouble getting the final kill.

Balancing Zelda:

* Her explosive attacks should have more range and more power. Din's fire and her Up aerial should become feared.
* Her forward Smash should have more range.
*Her grab needs to come out quick. People have to be careful when going close to Zelda.
*Her down aerial should be different and useful.
*Her recovery move should have invincible frames while disappearing and should be faster.

These improvements make Zelda a highly defensive character. She can punish a careless opponent who comes in too close but has difficulty chasing them down. Din's fire allows her to convince her opponents to move in closer or else get blown up. And her crystal shield attack can reflect any character who tries to put on projectile pressure of his or her own.

Balancing Sheik:

*No KO potential in any of her attacks
*Needles do not stun unless fully charged and do not block other projectiles. However, needles can still deal damage if shielded. For this to be fair the needles do less damage.
*Dash attack toned down, but still pops. Just do not make it spammable.
*Chain whip should be able to crack like a real whip. Pull it back and then let go for a good slap that deals decent damage and stuns. If not done right then it deals very little damage and can be punished like current chain.

TRANSFORM IMPROVEMENT

Two ways to go with this.

1. Make the transform instant.
2. Make the transform an attack.

If they make Zelda/Sheik like you say, with interdependent movesets that suck on their own, both will suffer.
Only devoted players will bother to swap between the 2 when they could use another, single high-tier character instead.
It would work best if Zelda and Sheik both got highly playable movesets that allowed them to work well on their own. I don't think anyone could complain about that.