How to make sheik/zelda a balanced character in brawl

[Bowserlick]

The whole point is that Zelda and Sheik are adaptable. Lets say you Zelda is the 4th strongest character with the 4th best melee attacks in terms of range out of 40. And Sheik is the 4th fastest character out of 40 with the 4th best evasive abilities.

Stat-wise that is very unbalanced. This way there is balance and you can choose between a heavy weight or a speed character.

A way to connect them better is allowing the down B move be an attack.

For Zelda, the transformation will be quick and result in Sheik launching outward like her dash. Setting up a combo.

For Sheik, the transformation will result in Zelda appearing in a burst of magic that can stun. Allowing a better oppurtunity for Zelda to deploy one of her moves.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The whole point is that Zelda and Sheik are adaptable. Lets say you Zelda is the 4th strongest character with the 4th best melee attacks in terms of range out of 40. And Sheik is the 4th fastest character out of 40 with the 4th best evasive abilities.

Stat-wise that is very unbalanced. This way there is balance and you can choose between a heavy weight or a speed character.

A way to connect them better is allowing the down B move be an attack.

For Zelda, the transformation will be quick and result in Sheik launching outward like her dash. Setting up a combo.

For Sheik, the transformation will result in Zelda appearing in a burst of magic that can stun. Allowing a better oppurtunity for Zelda to deploy one of her moves.

The down b as an attack would be cool, but it wouldn't fix their balancing issues and its not even likely.

 

[Luthien]

Sheik and Zelda will only work together well if the down b move is instant or has massive invincibility frames. As it is now, it is suicidally unsafe. And regardless of how they nerf Sheik, Zelda needs tons of buffs to give you a reason to use her at all.

Very, very true.

I don't really think that Zelda and Sheik were made to be played as tag characters anyway. Zelda becomes Sheik because she does so in OoT, not necessarily because they were meant to be used together. If they were made to switch regularly as everyone believes, the down b would be much more safe, Sheik would lack kill moves instead of having tons of kill moves as well as combo moves, and Zelda wouldn't be so generally bad.

As much sense as that makes, they were designed to be used as a tag-team. In the melee trophy section (paraphrased): switching between Zelda and Sheik mid battle is key.

I don't see how everyone can just assume what the developers were thinking considering how different this is from the actual game. The game manual and the trophy are not enough to state that Zelda and Sheik were made to be interdependent.

Well, no; really, they are. The trophies told us what the programmers were aiming for, not what actually happened. So Zelda and Sheik clearly were meant to be interdependent.

Do you guys really think that the programmers messed up the original plan that bad? Do you think that anything will change in Brawl?

Yes and yes. Apparently, Melee was rushed, so that could have been a factor. But the game itself (the greatest source you have for true info regarding what was intended to occur) happens to disagree with you seeing as how the trophies ARE actually true information to base what was intended. The trophies bios were written by whom? Do you really think he was trying to trick us when he said that?

Sheik and Zelda were meant to balance each other out. It's just it was a twisted concept. That doesn't mean they weren't MEANT to be interdependent. They clearly were; it's just that they can't be. I doubt Nintendo has 'seen the light' and decided to make the characters independent.

My point:
Were Zelda and Sheik meant to be interdependent in Melee? Yes.
Were they interdependent in Melee? No.

Will Zelda and Sheik be meant to be interdependent in Brawl? 90% sure the answer is yes.
Will they be interdependent in Brawl? 90% sure no.

 

[Yeroc]

Sadly, if you were to take half the people's suggestions in this thread and actually implement them, you'd likely just end up with the opposite scenario: Sheik wouldn't be worth a pile of **** and Zelda would be anywhere in the upper echelon, again with no purpose to switching between them. Although, maybe that'd satisfy people, because then the competitives would play Zelda because she's good, and the Zelda fanatics would play her because she's Zelda, and now she's good, and Sheik would be played by the people who miss having a Pichu type character in the game. That's everybody, right?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

alot of ppl said this already yeroc :D
but its good if you put it into the first post :D

yeah... tomorrow whn I get a good connection, I'll read the whole thread and edit accordingly... but a faster transformation isn't necessarily a necessity.... if she were invincible or flinchproof during transform, that would be good enough

 

[MasterGary]

I would rather a faster transformation, a near instant transformation so you could link there movesets together and create even more combo's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would rather a faster transformation, a near instant transformation so you could link there movesets together and create even more combo's.

that's a good idea, as long as it can't become exploited for really easy KOs and who can speculate on that now... a nice compromise could be reached maybe: the transformation could be quicker and have some invincibility frames but not so many it can be used to avoid things... I hear that PT hs a good system going with that... maybe sheik/zelda can borrow that.

And to Yeroc: no... it would really balence them... if you understood how truly unbalanced they were

 

[Luthien]

I would rather a faster transformation, a near instant transformation so you could link there movesets together and create even more combo's.

I don't know. I'm hoping that they'll stop trying to make the concept, "incorperate two movesets for one opponent." Agaist one opponent, you really only needed one moveset. Sheik's was better all around, so people in general chose Sheik's moveset.

Here's an example of the best case scenario of the 2 movesets vs. 1 opponent idea:

Say an opponent is camping. You're Zelda, and no matter how hard you try to catch up to them, they get away. The timer's running out, so you defy all logic and... *wait for it* change to Sheik. You dash, catch up, and proceed to tilt their sorry little butt off. Your tilts send the opponent a little to far for eventually, so you finish the combo with a nerfed fair, which would be strong enough to knock a good ways at 80%, far enough to regroup yourself, but not KOable (did you see what I did there? Anyway, I think that as long as the tilts have more kockback and less damage, tilting until you're opponent is at 150% and fairing won't work anymore).

You then run away and camp yourself. A good distance away, you change into Zelda and suddenly they have to come to you before the timer finishes, or lose the match, because Sheik racked up their damage higher than yours (as a ninja is prone to do). They now have to play aggressive, and instead of risking close range combat, they try to hit you with a projectile, which get's reflected by a buffed Nayru's Love *coughcough*. So close range combat is the only option.

Long story short, Zelda waits till they get open and bam, they're dead. There are problems with this strategy, I know, so here's what I think.

Case and point 1: The transformation CAN be used the way Nintendo is trying to incorperate it, but specific things would have to be done. Still, it's got problems.

I'm hoping against all odds that they'll keep the transformation idea, but change to concept of why you would use the move. Zelda would be better against different playstyles (really, that means different characters, but that's because different characters are built with specifc playstyles.) Also, Sheik would be better against different playstyles (""). For example:

Like I said above, Sheik would be better agains defensive styles. With little lag and speed in general, Sheik would be the ideal character against a camper. However, Sheik would have 1 decent KO move, being the sweetspotted up-smash (just in case switching is for some reason not an option).

Zelda would be faster and have many disjointed hitboxes, perfect for stopping an advancing opponent in their tracks. Counter-attacks galore, she would generally wait for the opponent to come to her, but have the ability to either interrupt or evade and try again.

Case and point 2: I want Sheik to shatter defenses, and I want Zelda to shatter offenses.

 

[Dynamism]

I don't see what the big deal with the transformation is. If Zelda lands a Fair, you have time to change. If Sheik lands a Fair, you have time to change. The speed could be increased for sure, but that is not the issue and I will not bring it up again.

A nerfed Sheik would be nice. Mainly just the way her Fair and throws are too easy. If the throw mechanics allow people to escape faster (which they can as of E4A when Pika and Mario could chain only Bowser and only maybe three times because they gained mobility quickly.) then that would be enough to level out Sheik.
If her Fair is nerfed even slightly, I still say problem solved, so no more *****ing about that...

Balancing the characters eh? Sheik was good, but Zelda wasn't exactly horrible. They are meant to work together but not be similar in any way.
Gameplan
Sheik: Fast, effective aerials and good tilts, dash-attack and throws for set-ups in the air. Few finishers, poor recovery, lacks range.
Zelda: Strong, many effective finishers and good priority on tilts, smashs and aerials. Imobile, slow attacks, lacks set-ups.

Sheik and Zelda can be used together plenty. There is in fact ONE thing that would have balanced them out in melee. This ONE thing would have made them equal but at the same time, created a super character for the way they could be used together, yet apart. They were built to be like Ganon and Fox in one character right? Now that would be broken and it is obvious to all of us that with the ability to switch between those two would be godly. That is because they are both great characters on their own. But if you combined the likes of Bowser and Pichu, then people would no doubt use both accordingly.
we have the Fox but lack the Ganon. The only thing Zelda would need buffed is priority on her attacks. Speed buff? Overdone and it is not in her character, plus that's why Sheik is effective. Something else, Strength? Everything she does is lethal!!! She can hit people fine with them too. But they can hit her just as easily.
She needs more priority. If her forward smash had this much range \/

in melee, she would've been used just as much as Sheik because she really would have something that Sheik severely lacks in. That would seperate them. Sheik is offensive with her speed and defensive with it at the same time. Zelda is offensive with her lethal hits and can be defensive with them at then same time...if the character has to actually concern themselves with avoiding them...


Oh look!!!!!!!
Zeldas FSmash has a disjointed hitbox beyond her fingers nails?!?!

Problem solved, and no matter how good Sheik or Zelda are, you would need both to use them/HER to full potential. Pichu sucks and Bowser sucks. Together, they wouldn't be AS bad, that's true even if it helps just a little little wee bit!

 

[OrlanduEX]

Very, very true.



As much sense as that makes, they were designed to be used as a tag-team. In the melee trophy section (paraphrased): switching between Zelda and Sheik mid battle is key.



Well, no; really, they are. The trophies told us what the programmers were aiming for, not what actually happened. So Zelda and Sheik clearly were meant to be interdependent.



Yes and yes. Apparently, Melee was rushed, so that could have been a factor. But the game itself (the greatest source you have for true info regarding what was intended to occur) happens to disagree with you seeing as how the trophies ARE actually true information to base what was intended. The trophies bios were written by whom? Do you really think he was trying to trick us when he said that?

Sheik and Zelda were meant to balance each other out. It's just it was a twisted concept. That doesn't mean they weren't MEANT to be interdependent. They clearly were; it's just that they can't be. I doubt Nintendo has 'seen the light' and decided to make the characters independent.

My point:
Were Zelda and Sheik meant to be interdependent in Melee? Yes.
Were they interdependent in Melee? No.

Will Zelda and Sheik be meant to be interdependent in Brawl? 90% sure the answer is yes.
Will they be interdependent in Brawl? 90% sure no.

Honestly, the trophies don't necessarily reflect what the programmers or Sakurai originally intended. It is unlikely that the team that compiled all the trophy data was the same team that was programming other elements of the game. Even though they wrote the trophies, they could have very well have had just cursory knowledge of the gameplay and thought that Zelda/Sheik should be played interdependently since they can switch. If this was supposed to be the case, I don't see how the actual game could have ended up so far from this.
And if you don't think that Zelda/Sheik will be interdependent in Brawl (you're 90% sure they won't be), then whats the point of this argument at all? We can always argue about what's meant to be, but that won't change reality. Let's just hope that Zelda gets buffed.

 

[MasterGary]

Honestly I don't want them to be balanced, I don't care what they do with sheik, but all they would have to do is add a little bit of lag to her moves and she suddenly becomes a lot more balanced.

With Zelda just give her certain new moves, and add some reach and priority. Give her marth's priority and reach, and since she isn't fast it would balance it out.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Honestly, the trophies don't necessarily reflect what the programmers or Sakurai originally intended. It is unlikely that the team that compiled all the trophy data was the same team that was programming other elements of the game. Even though they wrote the trophies, they could have very well have had just cursory knowledge of the gameplay and thought that Zelda/Sheik should be played interdependently since they can switch.

As long as you're discounting the evidence written within the "Smash trophies" for your argument, bear in mind that there's absolutely *no* evidence for your claim aside from assumptions.

If this was supposed to be the case, I don't see how the actual game could have ended up so far from this.

Rushed development cycles and lack of in-depth testing. The product we received and hacked apart was not a far-out possibility at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't see what the big deal with the transformation is. If Zelda lands a Fair, you have time to change. If Sheik lands a Fair, you have time to change. The speed could be increased for sure, but that is not the issue and I will not bring it up again.

A nerfed Sheik would be nice. Mainly just the way her Fair and throws are too easy. If the throw mechanics allow people to escape faster (which they can as of E4A when Pika and Mario could chain only Bowser and only maybe three times because they gained mobility quickly.) then that would be enough to level out Sheik.
If her Fair is nerfed even slightly, I still say problem solved, so no more *****ing about that...

Balancing the characters eh? Sheik was good, but Zelda wasn't exactly horrible. They are meant to work together but not be similar in any way.
Gameplan
Sheik: Fast, effective aerials and good tilts, dash-attack and throws for set-ups in the air. Few finishers, poor recovery, lacks range.
Zelda: Strong, many effective finishers and good priority on tilts, smashs and aerials. Imobile, slow attacks, lacks set-ups.

Sheik and Zelda can be used together plenty. There is in fact ONE thing that would have balanced them out in melee. This ONE thing would have made them equal but at the same time, created a super character for the way they could be used together, yet apart. They were built to be like Ganon and Fox in one character right? Now that would be broken and it is obvious to all of us that with the ability to switch between those two would be godly. That is because they are both great characters on their own. But if you combined the likes of Bowser and Pichu, then people would no doubt use both accordingly.
we have the Fox but lack the Ganon. The only thing Zelda would need buffed is priority on her attacks. Speed buff? Overdone and it is not in her character, plus that's why Sheik is effective. Something else, Strength? Everything she does is lethal!!! She can hit people fine with them too. But they can hit her just as easily.
She needs more priority. If her forward smash had this much range \/

in melee, she would've been used just as much as Sheik because she really would have something that Sheik severely lacks in. That would seperate them. Sheik is offensive with her speed and defensive with it at the same time. Zelda is offensive with her lethal hits and can be defensive with them at then same time...if the character has to actually concern themselves with avoiding them...


Oh look!!!!!!!
Zeldas FSmash has a disjointed hitbox beyond her fingers nails?!?!

Problem solved, and no matter how good Sheik or Zelda are, you would need both to use them/HER to full potential. Pichu sucks and Bowser sucks. Together, they wouldn't be AS bad, that's true even if it helps just a little little wee bit!

what LOOKS like disjointed hitbox and what actually is aren't necessarily the same thing... and I disagree... even with disjointed hitboxes, zelda would need more of a buff to be good. and sheik would need a much larger neg. Considering how great sheik is now, connecting a character like that with an other character of respectable use in a different area would be lots of overkill.



Edit: also, I'm with Ryoko here Vs. OrlanduEX.

the trophies aren't just the best source, they are the only source, and are as official as it gets. I'm sure the thoughts expressed on the trophies represent those of the developers on the whole. and it's not like there is ANY proof to the contrary or reason to think that there would be

 

[Yeroc]

And to Yeroc: no... it would really balence them... if you understood how truly unbalanced they were

I'm fully aware of this fact, thanks. I've only been playing them both for 6 years.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm fully aware of this fact, thanks. I've only been playing them both for 6 years.

didn't mean to insinuate otherwise... but really the buffs&negs aren't overkill... it's sad that they aren't but they aren't

 

[OrlanduEX]

As long as you're discounting the evidence written within the "Smash trophies" for your argument, bear in mind that there's absolutely *no* evidence for your claim aside from assumptions.
Rushed development cycles and lack of in-depth testing. The product we received and hacked apart was not a far-out possibility at all.

Even taking what the trophy says, I think we are reading too deep into this. The trophy states that strategic swapping is key, but it doesn't dictate the particular roles that Zelda and Sheik are meant to play. It doesn't say "rack up damage with Sheik, then swap to Zelda for the KO".
"Swapping is key" could be meant to say that one should swap between the two characters regularly to change the pace of battle and thus throw off an opponent.

 

[Luthien]

Even taking what the trophy says, I think we are reading too deep into this. The trophy states that strategic swapping is key, but it doesn't dictate the particular roles that Zelda and Sheik are meant to play. It doesn't say "rack up damage with Sheik, then swap to Zelda for the KO".
"Swapping is key" could be meant to say that one should swap between the two characters regularly to change the pace of battle and thus throw off an opponent.

Regarding the 90% sure thing, I'm argueing because I disagree with the evidence, not with the point.

"Strategically switching between Zelda and Sheik is key. Compared to her Zelda form, Sheik is nimble and has gorgeous moves, but she lacks a strong knockout attack." But in Zelda's trophy description, it says Zelda has "reliable --" *cough* "and explosive attack power."

"The best strategy to use when playing as Sheik is to let her flow from one powerful attack into another, like a river of quicksilver. Zelda has some techniques with more punch, however, so in one-on-one battles, use Transform as needed."

This STRONGLY implies you are indeed supposed to use both against one opponent in one battle. This isn't reading into it like the Kirby Hat Speculation, it's a lot more secure than that. So, I want you to be right, but I don't think you are (using this for support, at any rate. Do you have anything else to prove your point?).

 

[OrlanduEX]

Based on what I'm seeing, the trophy and the game manual are the only super solid evidence on which to base the claim that Zelda/Sheik are meant to be interdependent, because you can't make this determination from the actual game, considering how independent Sheik actually is and how useless Zelda is (mostly).
Considering how different the trophy turned out to be from the actual game, I think that there are 2 possibilities.

1) Sheik/Zelda were meant to be interdependent as the trophy states, and the programmers f***ed up somewhere (the commonly held belief).
2) The trophy happens to be wrong.

Assuming the second option, this wouldn't be the only trophy that conflicts to a certain extent with the actual game.
Bowser's trophy says that his Bowser Bomb move "paves the way for more attacks", but that move is actually a terrible option in any light, a liability at best.
Peach's trophy states that her attacks are "fairly weak", but the majority of her attacks are rather strong.

Is the second option likely the case? Maybe.
Will Zelda/Sheik become fully interdependent in Brawl? Probably not.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Peach's attacks are indeed weak. If you disagree, then you either suck at DI or are somehow being Usmashed frequently by her.

The Bowser Bomb indeed "paves the way for more attack"... if you hit dead-on, and they have enough damage so that they don't recover from the hit before you get up from doing it...

FYI, there was also old pre-release interview information from the developers stating the purpose of Zelda and Sheik, that is Zelda was designed to have slow, strong KO potential, and Sheik fast, combo potential (but little KO power). This was over 6 years ago, so it's unlikely anyone can dig up that information now, but it was there.

Also, this is ****ing pointless. Move on to discussing something else (preferably contributive) without splitting hairs about something you have no means of proving, in a situation where failure of the given intentions was proven.

 

[Luthien]

Also, this is ****ing pointless. Move on to discussing something else (preferably contributive) without splitting hairs about something you have no means of proving, in a situation where failure of the given intentions was proven.

Sorry, I thought I had edited my last post with something of worth before, but since it obviously didn't happen (is the site dying for anyone else?) I'll post it here.

How about buffing Zelda's down-tilt? I tend to ignore it while playing Zelda, so are there any ideas regarding what could be improved? I personally think the start-up time is fine, but I hope it's lag gets removed. If Sheik had one (main) high knockback attack, why can't Zelda have at least one fast, comboing attack?

 

[PyroRyuken]

Honestly I don't want them to be balanced, I don't care what they do with sheik, but all they would have to do is add a little bit of lag to her moves and she suddenly becomes a lot more balanced.

With Zelda just give her certain new moves, and add some reach and priority. Give her marth's priority and reach, and since she isn't fast it would balance it out.

Yeah, I found it amazing how quickly she can attack and get away afterwards. There is also, that spammable dash a attack that sets up for an instant forward a in the air that needs to be tampered with. That extra lag can really affect her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sorry, I thought I had edited my last post with something of worth before, but since it obviously didn't happen (is the site dying for anyone else?) I'll post it here.

How about buffing Zelda's down-tilt? I tend to ignore it while playing Zelda, so are there any ideas regarding what could be improved? I personally think the start-up time is fine, but I hope it's lag gets removed. If Sheik had one (main) high knockback attack, why can't Zelda have at least one fast, comboing attack?

I guess you are right...

Zelda's DSmash was the quickest in the game, but she still can't really combo from it... her only real combos came from throws or an L-Canceled neutral air... maybe if she recovered from Nayru's love quicker, she could combo out of that

 

[Luthien]

I guess you are right...

Zelda's DSmash was the quickest in the game, but she still can't really combo from it... her only real combos came from throws or an L-Canceled neutral air... maybe if she recovered from Nayru's love quicker, she could combo out of that

Er... I meant down-tilt. Down smash is fine, really. It's fast, has good priority, and ***** Fox's up-b. Down-tilt on the other hand...

... if it had incredible priority, I suppose that would satisfy me. But still.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Dtilt could use a little more power, and less lag to it. I find it one of Zelda's more useful attacks since it shieldstabs and hits ledge sweetspots so well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dtilt could use a little more power, and less lag to it. I find it one of Zelda's more useful attacks since it shieldstabs and hits ledge sweetspots so well.

I think it could use a bit more speed

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Dtilt comes out on frame 5. The speed is fine, it's the lag that could use some addressing.

The only thing Zelda would need buffed is priority on her attacks. Speed buff? Overdone and it is not in her character, plus that's why Sheik is effective.

Wait... is it in Zelda's character to convincingly turn into a ninja with everything Zelda herself lacks, one of which is the speed that would be highly useful in her Zelda form...? Zelda doesn't need to be THAT slow, it would only serve to let everyone else outcamp her no matter how much power she's given.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dtilt comes out on frame 5. The speed is fine, it's the lag that could use some addressing.


Wait... is it in Zelda's character to convincingly turn into a ninja with everything Zelda herself lacks, one of which is the speed that would be highly useful in her Zelda form...? Zelda doesn't need to be THAT slow, it would only serve to let everyone else outcamp her no matter how much power she's given.

yeah... I guess I was counting startup and cooldown time both under the broad umbrella of "speed" It's the lag after the attack which is the killer ther I guess. Zelda still shouldn't be "nimble" or "agile" but she should be able to run faster and jump higher/faster than bowser, which wasn't really something she could do in melee

 

[OrlanduEX]

Peach's attacks are indeed weak. If you disagree, then you either suck at DI or are somehow being Usmashed frequently by her.

The Bowser Bomb indeed "paves the way for more attack"... if you hit dead-on, and they have enough damage so that they don't recover from the hit before you get up from doing it...

FYI, there was also old pre-release interview information from the developers stating the purpose of Zelda and Sheik, that is Zelda was designed to have slow, strong KO potential, and Sheik fast, combo potential (but little KO power). This was over 6 years ago, so it's unlikely anyone can dig up that information now, but it was there.

Also, this is ****ing pointless. Move on to discussing something else (preferably contributive) without splitting hairs about something you have no means of proving, in a situation where failure of the given intentions was proven.

My intention was to refute the claim that Zelda/Sheik were meant to be played interdependently, but I see that it was pointless now.

And I don't see how you can make the claim that Peach is weak.
Peach's dsmash, usmash, dtlit, dash attack, fair, bair, uair, and fthrow are relatively strong.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Peach doesn't kill at any reasonably low percents unless the opponent is awful at DI, you connect with frequent Usmashes (not happening), or hit with lots of lucky Turnip pulls (also highly unlikely). All of Peach's primary senders (save Usmash) have unfavorable angles of send (unlike Sheik's forward air) thus DI is extremely powerful against them, which makes killing with Peach extremely hard and inefficient against good players. Those attacks of Peach's with better angles are highly unreliable. Thus, Peach is ultimately weak.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

this is true... and is also starting to deliniate from zelda discusion

and peach is negged anyway for brawl.

I wouldn't mind sheik having moves with unfavorable angles... she just needs low knockback

 

[blueriku]

heres my list of things

Changes to sheik...

1: her f smash should be more like links when you can delay the two kicks or not even do the 2nd hit

2: down smash should not be so powerful the you can own space animals or any FF with it so tone it down a bit

3: nerf all her air game f air and b air especially, in fact any smash atk should not KO until very high percents ( 180- 200 at least)

4: her chain should now be a tether recovery, as well as cancel out projectiles but does crappy damage and can't be used as weapon.

5: no chain grabs that made everyone hate sheik.....

6: fast transformation for damage with sheik to zelda KO combos

7: over all sheik should be more damage less KO ability basically she can combo but its extremely rare to KO with sheik

8: her needles should not cancel out any projectiles that are obviously more powerful (e.g samus's charged shot) in stead needles can cancel small projectiles like samus's missle or one laser blast from fox/falco (with a full needle storm sheik's needles can go through fox/falco's laser's since its faster) and link's arrow can't be cancel but instead the trajectory is altered as for his boomerang a full needle storm will slow it down (cause it to travel a shorter distance)

Changes to zelda

1: give her more priority in melee this was a big reason why she sucked most chars. can out prioritize her
so more prioity would be in order here i would say about the same priority that peach has

2: All strong magic atk's have a no flinch hit meaning you just can't walk up to zelda and hit use out of smash instead she'll resist and still do the smash hit. (also if farore's wind is slow that to should have a no flinch hit as well)

3: zelda should be heavier not to heavy but heavy enough that she is more resistant than her counterpart sheik.

4: physically faster (basically running and jumping) not to fast like sheik but slightly faster.

and well this is my view on what can change...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I dunno about the needles not being able to cance out projectiles... it certainly discouraged projectile spammers.... it just shouldn't have been so spamable itself.... though, I wouldn't complain much if the chain gained the ability to stop projectiles

 

[Supersmashbro125]

I agree with all of your ideas for Zelda changes,but only 1 and 5 of your ideas for Sheik changes.

oh and im talkin about Sonic The Hedgedawg's ideas.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

so, you would prefer to actually make sheik better?

the most integral changes to sheik would be nerfing her aerials and her down throw. She's simply too good as is... she nneeds to be changed whether you like her or not

 

[Ztarfish]

Yes, chain throw and godly aerials need to go.
Lets let Sheik users actually work for a KO.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

or turn into zelda to get a KO... which is what they were TRYING to go for, and failing miserably at in melee

 

[Luthien]

Yes, chain throw and godly aerials need to go.
Lets let Sheik users actually work for a KO.

Agreed to an extent. Here's what I think:

I think that the tilts need to be changed. As long as the tilts have practically no start up time, practically no lag, and next to no knockback, Sheik can just tilt till her opponents are 100% and go for the fair. If the fair is nerfed, all Sheik's going to have to do is keep tilting till her opponents are 200%. Nerfing the arials doesn't solve the problem (unless you change the fair's trajectory).

Now for the solution: how should they go about nerfing the tilts? More lag (meh)? More start up time (no, that makes no sense)? Or should they give more/less knockback?

With more knockback (not too much), perhaps Sheik would have a harder time comboing, and she'd only be able to tilt-combo-to-fair until the opponent gets 40%. Suddenly, the untouched fair is less deadly.

With less knockback... I dunno. Maybe there would be a chain issue? She can tilt as fast as she wants, but crouch-cancelling would kill her. Or maybe you wouldn't need to crouch-cancel; the knockback would be that bad. I don't know... I'm just pulling stuff out of my butt here.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I dunno comboing is kinda supposed to be sheik's bag... I dunno if I'd mess with that.

 

[Micahc]

heres my list of things

Changes to sheik...

1: her f smash should be more like links when you can delay the two kicks or not even do the 2nd hit
Or just make it like Links F-smash

2: down smash should not be so powerful the you can own space animals or any FF with it so tone it down a bit
Eh, I agree with this.

3: nerf all her air game f air and b air especially, in fact any smash atk should not KO until very high percents ( 180- 200 at least)
180-200% is obscene. Her entire air game does not need nerfing, main her fair. Possible some of her other aerials, but making all of them obsolete makes her a glorified sandbag.

4: her chain should now be a tether recovery, as well as cancel out projectiles but does crappy damage and can't be used as weapon.
Chain as a tether recovery just sounds stupid IMO, and it all ready does cancel out all projectiles, does worthless damage, and you can't use it as a weapon (well)

5: no chain grabs that made everyone hate sheik.....
Lol, Dedede has them now
Watch the new vids of Masashi vs Ikki in the General discussion.

6: fast transformation for damage with sheik to zelda KO combos
Eh, I think that they should still be able to function independently.

7: over all sheik should be more damage less KO ability basically she can combo but its extremely rare to KO with sheik
It shouldn't be rare, it should just be difficult.

8: her needles should not cancel out any projectiles that are obviously more powerful (e.g samus's charged shot) in stead needles can cancel small projectiles like samus's missle or one laser blast from fox/falco (with a full needle storm sheik's needles can go through fox/falco's laser's since its faster) and link's arrow can't be cancel but instead the trajectory is altered as for his boomerang a full needle storm will slow it down (cause it to travel a shorter distance)
Well duh.

Changes to zelda

1: give her more priority in melee this was a big reason why she sucked most chars. can out prioritize her
so more prioity would be in order here i would say about the same priority that peach has
It's not just that she has no priority, it's that she's slow and predictable. Her recovery is also the crappage.

2: All strong magic atk's have a no flinch hit meaning you just can't walk up to zelda and hit use out of smash instead she'll resist and still do the smash hit. (also if farore's wind is slow that to should have a no flinch hit as well)
Super armor frames don't fit Zelda IMO. They should just be slightly faster.

3: zelda should be heavier not to heavy but heavy enough that she is more resistant than her counterpart sheik.
Medium, not heavy.

4: physically faster (basically running and jumping) not to fast like sheik but slightly faster.
She should still be slow IMO, have you ever tried running in a full length dress?

and well this is my view on what can change...

Red is win.

 

[Iris]

I think if one or two of Sheik's tilts had more unfavorable trajectories then that would put an end to unescapable combos. Maybe if her dtilt sent people behind her and her ftilt lobbed them forward. Sheik wouldn't lose the ability to combo, but they would certainly be shorter, less damaging. After all, her combo strength in Melee came from her tilts sending the enemy straight up just long enough to whip out another quick tilt. If Sheik's tilts sent people away from her, another tilt wouldn't really reach and she'd have to move into her smashes, which are difficult to link after.