'How to deal with specific enemy moves' Discussion - Discussion 42: IC Grab

[Meru.]

The only characters who can punish your down air if you have good timing floating away are Metakngiht (because UP b out of shield has invincibility frames so he can do it during the dair) and Snake holding a grenade. Other than that, nobody has the a large enough hitbox necessary to punish Peach that retreats after a shielded dair. You can even avoid snake's up tilt after you dair his shield so that means you can avoid any move that is slower/small hitbox than snake's uptilt, which is like pretty much any out of shield option in the game. Usually, them trying an out of shield option after your down air, and you float away, is a FREE punishment of whatever out of shield move they used.

This is because all the moves they would be able to use to punish her float would take too long if they had to drop their shield first and dash at her. By the time this occurs, she has the frame recovery to start another dair. It's really an amazing strategy and is extremely underused.

So try this on DDD:

1) Dair his shield
2)if he shields it, float away during your dair and wait
3) If he rolls towards you, dair again
4) If he rolls away from you fair enough, start over
5) If he up tilts, fair to punish his up tilt after you've floated back just the right range.

He doesn't have anything for punishing Peach as far as his options go in this scenario. his best scenario is rolling away and creating a neutral approaching situation for both of you again.

Basically, if DDD punishes your floating dairs, you are doing it wrong and need to stop and think more about what options your opponent truly has

Wow really? Thanks, I didnt know this.

What about Marth's UpB? She can avoid even that? o.o

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just to throw this out, DeDeDe's grab range is long enough for him to grab you out of your Jab even if the jab is out of range to hit him when he's sheilding. Peach's hurtbox (her hand) will extend for enough for him to grab you from a pretty silly distance

The Floating thing is what I do normally, just watch he doesn't jump up and hit predictable Float and Dairs...but that kind of goes for everyone

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Yup! It's impossible for Marth to punish your down air with UP B once he brings in his shield if you space correctly. Peach is in control of Marth anytime he's shielding. As SOON as you hit his shield with dair start floating back. You'll just dodge his UP B. I destroy Marth's who like to UP B. That move has nothing on Peach thanks to floating away from it after she attempts shield pressure. Infact, the less a Marth player uses it, the better they have a chance of beating me. Even though it's super fast and might even have incinbility frames at the beginning, it's not a very good move when you bait it as it's extremely punishable and predictable. Its a lot more difficult when Marth uses attacks Peach can't punish and plays safe. That UP B is high risk high reward at it's finest.

You can even get an upsmash out of him if he whiffs his UP B.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Could he not jump out and Fair you though?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Nope. After your dair, if he doesn't UP B, just float back towards him and dair again, If he tries to jump out of shield during your dair the dair will eat him. If he waits for your dair to be done, you can just pull out another one by the time he can jump and use an aerial, which has a mad amount of frames compared to the cooldown Peach has between dairs.

Think about it. Have you EVER been punished by any aerial when you were dairing someone's shield? It just doesn't happen. People only try to punish it with tilts and smashes. If you jump it's extremely like you just eat the dairs.

It's possible that he CAN fair you if you space wrong or he times it just right, but it's EXTREMELY hard for him to do this, and requires insane timing. He won't be used to the situation and won't even think of it in the first place, either.

 

[Razmakazi]

Yup! It's impossible for Marth to punish your down air with UP B once he brings in his shield if you space correctly. Peach is in control of Marth anytime he's shielding. As SOON as you hit his shield with dair start floating back. You'll just dodge his UP B. I destroy Marth's who like to UP B. That move has nothing on Peach thanks to floating away from it after she attempts shield pressure. Infact, the less a Marth player uses it, the better they have a chance of beating me. Even though it's super fast and might even have incinbility frames at the beginning, it's not a very good move when you bait it as it's extremely punishable and predictable. Its a lot more difficult when Marth uses attacks Peach can't punish and plays safe. That UP B is high risk high reward at it's finest.

You can even get an upsmash out of him if he whiffs his UP B.

my marth would just sh or fh fair oos if I'm ever daired though. I'm pretty sure I've been hit by that playing the pch side of the matchup too or am I missing something that peach can do about this?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I know I have a very good solution to it that works (since I don't ever recall getting faired) but I think I just can't remember what I do because I do it instinctively. Let me try to play the match with someone and it'll probably come back to me.

 

[Razmakazi]

ok cool haha. i don't like just fair oos w/ marth right away. I jump into the peach til i'm in range and then let it fly so maybe there's time for peach to stuff it with something, dunno.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I am not to sure about pulling back and Marth not being able to Fair you if you go in for the second hit of the dair. His Fair is 4 frames. And look at Peach dair:

Dair
Duration: 39
Hits on Frame: 12, 18, 24, 30
Hitbox Duration: each hitbox lasts 2 frames
Aerial Cooldown: 8
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 32

Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2


From the looks of this, it seems Marth has a good shot of hitting you with a Fair out of shield if you pull back and try for another set of Dairs. Even when spaced. Thats why I usually short hot my dairs on him and hardly float them. its not too safe.

Again his Up-B, yea you are safe withthat one as you explained. but the dair I really don't see me getting away with that.

 

[Meru.]

Marth also needs to jump (5 frames).

Anyway, this is very useful information. Learned so much today!

 

[Razmakazi]

then marth prolly does make it. i know i've hit several peaches w/ fair oos on retreating float dairs. his aerial mobility is **** haha

 

[Meru.]

It's probably better to float away and autocancel. Or something like that. Mehh, but for some reason my Dairs rarely get shielded against Marth. Guess I time/use it well vs him.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I am not to sure about pulling back and Marth not being able to Fair you if you go in for the second hit of the dair. His Fair is 4 frames. And look at Peach dair:

Dair
Duration: 39
Hits on Frame: 12, 18, 24, 30
Hitbox Duration: each hitbox lasts 2 frames
Aerial Cooldown: 8
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 32

Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2


From the looks of this, it seems Marth has a good shot of hitting you with a Fair out of shield if you pull back and try for another set of Dairs. Even when spaced. Thats why I usually short hot my dairs on him and hardly float them. its not too safe.

Again his Up-B, yea you are safe withthat one as you explained. but the dair I really don't see me getting away with that.

Hmm interesting. Perhaps you are right. I think I might be just completely pulling away or , if i predict the fair I just land and shield. A mind games situation at that point. I can't remember and its been awhile since I played. But those numbers make it more clear.

(Though do keep in mind he has to jump, which takes something like 8 or 9 frames to do before he can fair) So it seems like your second down air isn't going to stop fair, but you do have a lot of options at that point.

 

[Razmakazi]

methinks ima change the move later on if no1 has anything else to say about D3's paws.

i have ideas of moves i'd put here but i guess if anyone has a request go ahead and post it.

 

[deepseadiva]

SHUTTLE LOOP OMG

...ahem. Yea, MK's grounded Up-B would be nice.

 

[Eddie G]

for MK, I usually try to bait the shuttle loop and either attack with a turnip/dash attack if he cancels and lands further away, or an immediate full jumped/short hopped uair (even nair in some cases) or glide toss a turnip upward if he decides to carry out the glide animation. It's a start. Short hopped/full jumped toad has its occasional uses too.

 

[Razmakazi]

ef it, i'm lazy. my comp is slow too so ima just remove all the images on the front page. it's just a mess and rickerdy has the original **** saved anyway hahaha. and...i guess we'll do shuttle loop for the new few days...or actually til monday night since i'm leaving for a regional tomorrow.

edit: actually it loads faster than I thought. I guess I won't remove them atm. ;o



aaaanyway when I dair I like to float right above mk and then go into nair and land behind him if he still shields. If he shuttle loops he usually just gets clapped by nair. And I float riiiiight above MK and not too high b/c if you float too high then his oos nair oos will just hit before your nair has a chance to come out.

 

[Nicole]

Grounded shuttle loop isn't really the shuttle loop I'm worried about...

I treat grounded shuttle loop like Marth's Up B OOS. Just know that MK can Up B OOS and stay away from him. You can't really pressure MK's shield anyway, as far as my experience (which isn't a whole lot) tells me.

 

[Razmakazi]

oh and DP did say that if u shield it u can do ground float up air oos. i have problems doing the input and I don't even bother anymore coooz most mks down here are really starting to abuse the fastfall autocancel on shuttle loop. It's reaaally gay. It makes shuttle loop almost completely safe if it hits your shield. If you haven't seen anyone use the cancel just look up a ksizzle vid. So not easy to deal it haha.

Well, ima change the topic Monday when I get by from R3

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=7256

Time to raaape.

ima change the move tomorrow if no1 wants to discuss it. o.o

new topic. avoiding this garb. ;o

 

[deepseadiva]

If you get a lead on ICs against only Popo, stall until he commits suicide. Remember: They can't call you ghey if they are playing ICs!

Otherwise, abuse platforms, hard. Like, really, really hard.

Peach can do this better than most characters - all ICs have is what, uair? Just camp on the platforms and jump when they do, float till the problem goes back down, and land at the same they do to refresh your float. Basically reflect their jumps - float gives us the power to decide when to come back down.

Also, just ledge cancel turnips. Most other pulling opportunities are much too risky.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I hate ICs grabs

I always find myself running away from them throwing turnips and I resort to float camping and using dair because I'm so afraid of getting grabbed lol.

 

[Nicole]

Lylat is so awesome for this matchup.

But Peach CAN win this on FD. I play against ICs a fair amount and I don't lose too often. If I do lose, it's because I did something stupid. Once you get the % lead, there's no reason to do anything but run away. If you need a turnip, just ledgepull it so that you're off the stage. You can float back on and they won't be able to grab you because you'll be above them. If you're far enough away from them, you can just pull a turnip normally, no need to put yourself in a strange position. Also, you only need turnips if you don't have the % lead. You won't be able to get through blizzard otherwise. Dair is great, just watch out for Usmash, IC's can do it pretty quickly. Dair their shield, float away and bait the Usmash, then Dair them again. Or Fair, if they're ready to be killed. Never land near them and you won't get grabbed. Hell, float over to the ledge and grab that if you need to.

Nana likes to get Usmashed

 

[Airgemini]

I would just camp them to avoid getting grabbed.

 

[Razmakazi]

ew i forgot about this topic.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh i decided I dun want it anymore XD

cooooooz I don't main Peach.

Well at least til January 16th I don't.

Yea... ;O

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

ew i forgot about this topic.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh i decided I dun want it anymore XD

cooooooz I don't main Peach.

Well at least til January 16th I don't.

Yea... ;O

That didn't last long xD

 

[Razmakazi]

yeah i didn't anticipate the whole switching mains thing XD

 

[Meru.]

Another one? You'll come back.

 

[swordsaint]

So I totally timed out this Ice Climbers main with Peach. Everyone should do it. <3

 

[Dark.Pch]

So I totally timed out this Ice Climbers main with Peach. Everyone should do it. <3

i lve you for doung that.

 

[Eddie G]

Psh...time out your own main with her and I'll be impressed.

 

[Mike B]

I thought any IC worth their salt can timeout anything if they don't get agood grab opportunity.