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How is Zelda's performance in the elements of Brawl?

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Zelda's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING
  • On the ground
  • In the air
  • Off-stage

SPACING
  • Extreme long distance
  • Long distance
  • Medium distance
  • Short distance

KILLING
  • Killing power
  • Gimping potential

Thanks a bunch.
 

GodAtHand

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
1,664
Location
Lawrence, MA
I'll do this later, even if someone else did it it would be good to get two opinions... or more.

busy now at UNH
 

Kataefi

*smoke machine*
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
igloo
I'd love to give this a go!
I'm new to the smash boards, not to Zelda however. Also I havn't a clue about all this terminology!

If I get anything drastically wrong let me know guys, the last thing I want to do is spout unwanted and inaccurate information, though I strive to test everything I say on training mode and against other players (not online).

ZONING (havn't a clue what this is...)

* On the ground
A good ground game, FSmash is not easily spot dodged and normally opponents will be hit by the last hit (which is the strongest). DSmash is a contender for fastest smash in the game, comes out on frame 4 so it really is impossible to see coming unless it's predicted in advance. If the opponent successfully spot dodges, Zelda is in trouble, she has a very slight but still apparent cooldown on her smashes. USmash is SO good but opponets have now learned to be wary of this move now. Utilt punishes rolls making it a great ground move from a close distance. Dtilt is too good. It combos, locks and sets up for some smashes. Certainly a blessing. Nayru's is decent but lag is bad, though it often hits the opponents at least once.
* In the air
Strong air game if they connect and/or sweetspot, otherwise her air game is AWFUL. Basically it's VERY extreme, and I find it unreliable. I get desperate with Zelda if I don't manage to connect one sweetspotted fair or bair in the first stock, and this seriously affects my game. Though getting one in feels so satisfying. The only reliable air attack is her neutral, which can be auto-cancelled but still be DId out of.
* Off-stage
Not so good. She can play it safe by spamming dins, which can put pressure on many recoveries. This is great against the space animals, links amongst others, not so good against marth, GnW and other characters that have very quick and effective recoveries. Though sometimes Zelda gets overexcited with Dins, giving opponents that could have died a second chance to make it back to the stage, because it shoots them up.

Nair is slightly better off stage. It can interfere with recoveries and send them further outwards (possibly inwards depending on the opponent's DI).

She can chase with dair but again, it needs to sweetspot to work effectively and this can be so hard to pull off.


SPACING (I'm guessing this is how she deals with being at such distances?) Here goes...

* Extreme long distance (i.e. from one end of FD to the other)
Dins makes her predictable. People expect this. They don't expect FW as much. A combination of FW and dins makes her a lot more unpredictable on characters that can't close in on her from this kind of distance. At the start of the match I often tend to FW on the spot to confuse people. Why is Zelda doing that? Then you watch them approach VERY slowly or rush in fast.

For spammers, her reflector is the answer. Opponents get agitated knowing Zelda is just so hard to crack defensively. She's a fortress, so she forces them to approach.

So from this distance not only can she remain untouched from spammers, she can also mindgame FW and use a few din's fakeouts to come across unpredictable and experienced. Din's fakeouts are brilliant. Some players mistime their dodge and fall into the din's. When someone is closing in FAST (Marth springs to mind) from an extremely long distance away I always do an immediate dins and explode it straight away. The opponent will shield or air dodge and possibly lose their momentum.

* Long distance (i.e. Zelda is in the middle of FD and the opponent is near the ledge)
Zelda is bad here. Din's is not as effective, though FW might be to close the distance but not escape from this distance. But saying that FW has horrible lag after. Din's has horrible ending lag that opponents can EASILY take advantage of. Personally she mustn't be in this zone.

* Medium distance (i.e. there is a noticeable gap between Zelda and the opponent.)
FSmash works WONDERS! Because of its disjointed hitbox and range, I perform this move EARLIER than expected. Opponents feel like they can rush in and attack, but are normally greeted with the last and most strongest hit of the FSmash that cannot be DId out of.

Ftilt catches opponents off guard and can be angled. I've managed to just about beat an MK spamming the tornado by angling this move UP, not straight ahead. Though this is probably best used from short distance, but at mid distance it can catch an opponent rushing towards zelda very well because of it's awkward timing (it has a slight delay but is quicker than the FSmash).

Jab is effective and has excellent range. Stops a lot of dash attacks approaches and can sometimes ruin a floating peach. At mid distance it's quite good. Dtilt is even better, and stops many approaches. It locks and can combo well. Perfect against smaller opponents.

* Short distance (i.e. the opponents are almost touching each other, there might be a small gap.)
Great. Usmash and Dsmash come out very fast and are great kill moves when not decayed. Usmash puts pressure. FSmash puts pressure on the shield and pushes the opponent away whether they shield this or not. The range of this push back is enough to be OUT of the range of Marth's FSmash if he were to FSmash immediately after being pushed back by Zelda's.

FW is surprisingly good at making Zelda get away, but she needs to be insanely close to the opponent and sometimes there are FAR better options, such as smashing or throwing.

The best move at this distance is Nayru's Love. AMAZING MOVE! Works even better just after spot dodging an attack or shielding. Even better when used near the ledge as it can push opponents away. I like to place my back to the opponent. They think they can rush in and attack. I like to spot dodge the first attack and then use Nayru's to send them off the ledge, setting up for some sourspotted dairs or a sweetspotted one if I'm VERY lucky =D


KILLING

* Killing power
Really really good. Her USmash is even stronger than Ganon's. Utilt is INSANE if it hits and the opponent is around 100% (applying to Mario - (I think it KOs falco fresh at 84% give or take) ). Uair is UNBELIEVABLE. KOs at shorter ceiling around 70%, 50% if it catches an opponent right at the top of the ceiling (though this hardly ever happens unless on smashville)
* Gimping potential (I really don't know what this means so here goes...)
Not so good. Zelda fails her. Her dair is about precision, and some characters are simply too quick for it to come out in time. Sourspotted dairs are good and do combo into each other.

2-3 sourspotted dairs will ALWAYS combo into a sweetspotted one, either that or do a footstool and it's ALMOST a guaranteed kill XD

My, my! A LONG POST! Hope this helps in anyway possible.
 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
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Good summary Kataefi, pretty much said everything that could be said.
 

MK26

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Dragz forgot to mention that Zoning and killing are ranked on a 5-point scale: Amazing, Above average, average, below average, and terrible

Spacing is on a 3-point scale: Comfortable, Bearable, and Uncomfortable

Sort of summarizing Kataefi:

ZONING
On the ground - Avobe average (4) - Zelda is the best here
In the air - Below average (2) - Very hit and miss. Several misses.
Off-stage - Average (3) - Good distance on the recovery, but not many options

9 out of 15

SPACING
Extreme long distance - Comfortable (3) - Din's to spam, Naru's to prevent counterspam
Long distance - Uncomfortable (1) - Too close to Din's, to dangerous to approach. GTFO of there now.
Medium distance - Comfortable (3) - F-smash anyone?
Short distance - Comfortable (3) - D-smash anyone?

10 out of 12

KILLING
Killing power - Amazing (5) - Zelda is a medium-weight that hits with the heavies
Gimping potential - Terrible (1) - Seriously, when was the last time you actually gimped somebody?

6 out of 10

That gives her...25 out of 37
 

Villi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,370
Location
California
Dragz forgot to mention that Zoning and killing are ranked on a 5-point scale: Amazing, Above average, average, below average, and terrible

Spacing is on a 3-point scale: Comfortable, Bearable, and Uncomfortable

Sort of summarizing Kataefi:

ZONING
On the ground - Avobe average (4) - Zelda is the best here
In the air - Below average (2) - Very hit and miss. Several misses.
Off-stage - Average (3) - Good distance on the recovery, but not many options

9 out of 15

SPACING
Extreme long distance - Comfortable (3) - Din's to spam, Naru's to prevent counterspam
Long distance - Uncomfortable (1) - Too close to Din's, to dangerous to approach. GTFO of there now.
Medium distance - Comfortable (3) - F-smash anyone?
Short distance - Comfortable (3) - D-smash anyone?

10 out of 12

KILLING
Killing power - Amazing (5) - Zelda is a medium-weight that hits with the heavies
Gimping potential - Terrible (1) - Seriously, when was the last time you actually gimped somebody?

6 out of 10

That gives her...25 out of 37

I agree withthis except I would put both long distance and extreme long distance at bearable. For me, if I have to back off, it would be to long distance rather than extreme distance. Putting your back to the ledge isn't the smartest move as Zelda, while at long distance she has defenses against approaches while her approaches aren't as telegraphed as they would be from extreme distance.

I would also put her gimping at average. Yesterday I gimped a Pit at 0% with two dash attacks to a lightning spike. I am sometimes able to spike people waiting too long on the ledge or attempting to ledge hop with my down tilt. I am also sometimes able to gimp Ness/Lucas' recovery with Din's. Just cause she has a spike/or two and such good recovery to utilize it puts her at least average.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I agree withthis except I would put both long distance and extreme long distance at bearable. For me, if I have to back off, it would be to long distance rather than extreme distance. Putting your back to the ledge isn't the smartest move as Zelda, while at long distance she has defenses against approaches while her approaches aren't as telegraphed as they would be from extreme distance.

I would also put her gimping at average. Yesterday I gimped a Pit at 0% with two dash attacks to a lightning spike. I am sometimes able to spike people waiting too long on the ledge or attempting to ledge hop with my down tilt. I am also sometimes able to gimp Ness/Lucas' recovery with Din's. Just cause she has a spike/or two and such good recovery to utilize it puts her at least average.
a agree with villi in both his agreements and disagreements
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
I also agree. Her gimping ability is pretty imo. She has a lot of KO options off the stage and depending on the character she can bait/force a certain recovery and punish it. She should be rated as average.
 

MK26

Smash Master
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Messages
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Fix'd

ZONING
On the ground - Above average (4)
In the air - Below average (2)
Off-stage - Average (3)

9 out of 15

SPACING
Extreme long distance - Bearable (2)
Long distance - Bearable (2)
Medium distance - Comfortable (3)
Short distance - Comfortable (3)

10 out of 12

KILLING
Killing power - Amazing (5)
Gimping potential - Average (3)

8 out of 10

Total...27 out of 37

I'd personally put gimping at below average, but Zelda is pretty much...my tertiary. Average it is.

EDIT:

I also agree. Her gimping ability is pretty imo. She has a lot of KO options off the stage and depending on the character she can bait/force a certain recovery and punish it. She should be rated as average.
How so?
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
Lol, meant to type pretty decent... but it is pretty as well. You like that nice flame from the uair? Oooo ahhh.
 

Traumatisch

Smash Rookie
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Jul 26, 2008
Messages
22
Location
Alkmaar, Netherlands
Hmm I agree with most of this. The thing that bothers me though is that her air game is said to be below average. I think it should be average.

One LK connecting makes up for maybe four or five aerials from your opponent. Not to mention that her aerials have decent priority all around.

Her Uair is disjointed and has massive killing power and can be used against moves like the key and Tink's Dair. Two moves that most other characters have no options against at all.

Nair can be used as a gimp move, can be used as approach (just barely), actually has pretty good priority compared to most Nairs and auto-cancels.

Sourspotted aerials still make your opponent flinch so if used right and used carefully can be done with only small (to maybe medium) risk.

Lastly, I think the mere threat her airgame has going for it, with its massive killing power, accounts for something as well. Oftentimes opponents would rather airdodge or otherwise play safe than going toe-to-toe with Zelda (pun intended :p).

This obviously doesn't hold up against opponents with an amazing airgame like MK or Marth, which is why I think it should be average. Maybe above average if you're REALLY optimistic and can sweetspot regularly, but definitely not below average.

I think it should be set to average -_-
 

sniperworm

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Joined
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Messages
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Pearl City, HI
Hmm I agree with most of this. The thing that bothers me though is that her air game is said to be below average. I think it should be average.

One LK connecting makes up for maybe four or five aerials from your opponent. Not to mention that her aerials have decent priority all around.

Her Uair is disjointed and has massive killing power and can be used against moves like the key and Tink's Dair. Two moves that most other characters have no options against at all.

Nair can be used as a gimp move, can be used as approach (just barely), actually has pretty good priority compared to most Nairs and auto-cancels.

Sourspotted aerials still make your opponent flinch so if used right and used carefully can be done with only small (to maybe medium) risk.

Lastly, I think the mere threat her airgame has going for it, with its massive killing power, accounts for something as well. Oftentimes opponents would rather airdodge or otherwise play safe than going toe-to-toe with Zelda (pun intended :p).

This obviously doesn't hold up against opponents with an amazing airgame like MK or Marth, which is why I think it should be average. Maybe above average if you're REALLY optimistic and can sweetspot regularly, but definitely not below average.

I think it should be set to average -_-
A few things. One LK does not make up for 4-5 aerials. How many aerials do you know that only do 4-5 percent (since the LK sweetspotted does 20)? In my experience, most aerials do around 10 percent which means an LK makes up for about 2 (maybe 3 weak ones).

Her Uair can be used as against TL and G&W's Dair, but it's unlikely unless you do it before they execute their move (or unless they're ******** and do it from way above you). So I guess what I'm saying here is that although technically it does work, it probably shouldn't.

Sourspotted aerials usually result from a missed sweetspot which makes me say that they'd come with at least medium risk (since you wouldn't be sourspotting on purpose unless there was zero risk and that makes that argument sort of irrelevant).

Anyway, I also feel that Zelda's air game should be average because Snake got average. My reasoning is that I think they are fairly similar in that both have blindspots and are generally not at the advantage in the air, but the sheer payoff from any successful aerial boosts them up to average.
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
Anyway, I also feel that Zelda's air game should be average because Snake got average. My reasoning is that I think they are fairly similar in that both have blindspots and are generally not at the advantage in the air, but the sheer payoff from any successful aerial boosts them up to average.
Yeah but snake's bair beats almost everything. With Zelda you have to pick and choose when you are going to try to throw out a LK. I mean she has great tools that can punish in the air but because her air moves are easy to predict/dodge/punish/be outprioritized I understand Zelda being ranked "below average."
 

Brinzy

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Snake has to pick and choose when he wants to bair. If he doesn't connect right off hand, it sourspots and doesn't do much.

They have virtually equal "aerial priority." I don't know if any of his aerials are disjointed, but honestly, his aerials are just as easy to predict, dodge, and punish. The difference is that with Zelda, there's one sweetspot that you have to worry about, and that's the one and only kick she's throwing out. Snake's nair doesn't have strong knockback until the last kick. Same for dair. They're strong moves alright, but really, he doesn't necessarily have any safety from above him, below him, and in front of him, unless he can absolutely outrange the other character.

Sweetspotting Zelda's aerials, as you should know, isn't nigh impossible, nor is it hard to hit with uair. If you space your uair out, you should be able to follow most characters in the air and just uair when they try an airdodge. Fair and bair have good range overall and they do trade with other aerials, sweetspotted or not. If the other person is spacing out an aerial (such as DDD's bair and DK's bair), all you have to do is line yourself up with them and kick. Zelda's bair when sweetspotted is pretty much the most dangerous bair out there. Fair is probably near the top, too. Any trading she does is an unfair deal on the opponent, unless they kill Zelda anyway. Nair is decent, and dair... eh, it's a strong meteor, but maybe it isn't fantastic.

Add to this the fact that overall, her aerials will kill the earliest, and Zelda should definitely be average.
 

Traumatisch

Smash Rookie
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Jul 26, 2008
Messages
22
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alright so maybe I was bluffing a bit in my post with 4 to 5 aerials but hey, at least it sparked some new discussion

Add to this the fact that overall, her aerials will kill the earliest, and Zelda should definitely be average.
QFT
 

Kataefi

*smoke machine*
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
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igloo
Fix'd

ZONING
On the ground - Above average (4)
In the air - Average (3)
Off-stage - Average (3)

9 out of 15

SPACING
Extreme long distance - Comfortable (3)
Long distance - Bearable (2)
Medium distance - Comfortable (3)
Short distance - Comfortable (3)

10 out of 12

KILLING
Killing power - Amazing (5)
Gimping potential - Below Average (2)

8 out of 10

Total...27 out of 37

I'd personally put gimping at below average, but Zelda is pretty much...my tertiary. Average it is.

EDIT:



How so?
I agree with your scores except the points highlighted in yellow. I think in the air she's average ONLY because the extreme nature of her air game. She'll either be insanely weak in the air or insanely strong, and the two cancel each other out to make her average (amazing at best, awful at worst) =D

And I think she's comfortable at extreme long distances simply because of her fortress defences. She's just naturally hard to approach from this distance, plus she has din's (predictable I know XD) but she has FW to make good mixups and Nayrus for invincibility and reflection. Plus her smashes cover her at almost all angles from 'invasion'.

I put her gimping potential below average because of her slow air speed and mobility to chase opponents to gimp in the first place and the precise nature of some of her moves (yes that's you dair).

So overall my overall score is (this is with the highlighted scores):

28 / 37 ... which is pretty good!

But I'm sure this doesn't take into consideration her recovery, which could hinder her.
 

MRTW113

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
341
Yeah, she's gotten much better but still lacks gimp potential. Besides sourspot dair>footstool and the occasional nair, it's hard to gimp someone horizontally or diagonally unless you sweetspot. Also, comes the problem on recovering. If you go to far, your opponent might make it to the ledge before you do...
 
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