How do you react to people who genuinely want Dragon Ball's Goku in Smash Bros.?

[BronzeGreekGod]

Death battle covered that already. Unfortunately superman would eat Goku for breakfast lol

Can we all agree on one thing though? There are too many FE characters!!!

 

[Crystanium]

Screw Goku. I want to play as Johnny Slater from Hybrid Heaven so I can use my rolling savate kick against my opponent's head. Then I can listen to remixes of Fight and Fight Hard. Get on it, Konami!

 

[DBPirate]

Don't have anything against people that want Goku, but I'm baffled as to why Nintendo have to be the ones to make "the ultimate crossover of all media of all time." There already is an anime fighting game. It'd be like suggesting Mario to be a playable character in Injustice.

Adding Goku would sort of kill a lot of the hype around Smash for me. I think most of the niche Nintendo characters would likely slowly be cut from a Smash with non-video game characters.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Death battle covered that already. Unfortunately superman would eat Goku for breakfast lol

Can we all agree on one thing though? There are too many FE characters!!!

I feel like there are too many Mario and Pokémon characters. Mario characters who headline their own spinoffs even got their own symbols. And Pokémon has a lot of references to the anime with some playable Pokémon being inspired by their anime appearances, and Lucario appeared in an anime movie before the games, breaking the no anime character rule. Though I actually like how Fire Emblem got over represented when it started off as just a Japan only game that was popularized by Melee. Seriously, we wouldn't be playing Fire Emblem here if it weren't for Smash. And Mario's Nintendo's Mickey Mouse, and Pokémon has gone multimedia, so they are kind of over exposed.

Don't have anything against people that want Goku, but I'm baffled as to why Nintendo have to be the ones to make "the ultimate crossover of all media of all time." There already is an anime fighting game. It'd be like suggesting Mario to be a playable character in Injustice.

Adding Goku would sort of kill a lot of the hype around Smash for me. I think most of the niche Nintendo characters would likely slowly be cut from a Smash with non-video game characters.

Injustice had three Mortal Kombat characters, Hellboy, and the Ninja Turtles breaking the DC theme.

 

[DBPirate]

I feel like there are too many Mario and Pokémon characters. Mario characters who headline their own spinoffs even got their own symbols. And Pokémon has a lot of references to the anime with some playable Pokémon being inspired by their anime appearances, and Lucario appeared in an anime movie before the games, breaking the no anime character rule. Though I actually like how Fire Emblem got over represented when it started off as just a Japan only game that was popularized by Melee. Seriously, we wouldn't be playing Fire Emblem here if it weren't for Smash. And Mario's Nintendo's Mickey Mouse, and Pokémon has gone multimedia, so they are kind of over exposed.


Injustice had three Mortal Kombat characters, Hellboy, and the Ninja Turtles breaking the DC theme.

Those are the equivalent of the third parties in Smash. Mortal Kombat is also by NetherRealm and Hellboy and TMNT are comic characters. Same medium and same dev studio.

 

[Quillion]

Injustice had three Mortal Kombat characters, Hellboy, and the Ninja Turtles breaking the DC theme.

Quit with the whataboutism, PLEASE.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I get angry for a second, then I remember that he's never going to happen and stick my nose up at them

 

[Sean Wheeler]

A lot of threads here have Nintendo and third-party video game characters that are unlikely to happen. It should be fun to speculate other left field characters like Goku. We just shouldn't get too angry when our favorite characters don't make the cut like how Waluigi fans reacted. And besides, even if the likes of Giku gets in, that wouldn't really ruin the whole theme about Smash. Nintendo characters will still make up the majority of the roster, so it would still be a Nintendo All-Stars game. Dragon Ball has enough games on Nintendo consoles to justify someone like Goku getting in. There may be crazy licensing issues, but don't the third-party characters have crazy licensing to go through? That was why Snake was cut from Smash 4. But if the fanbase can't handle characters like Goku, maybe the next Smash game should cut all the third-parties and focus only on the Nintendo properties.

 

[Crystanium]

I feel like there are too many Mario and Pokémon characters. Mario characters who headline their own spinoffs even got their own symbols. And Pokémon has a lot of references to the anime with some playable Pokémon being inspired by their anime appearances, and Lucario appeared in an anime movie before the games, breaking the no anime character rule. Though I actually like how Fire Emblem got over represented when it started off as just a Japan only game that was popularized by Melee. Seriously, we wouldn't be playing Fire Emblem here if it weren't for Smash. And Mario's Nintendo's Mickey Mouse, and Pokémon has gone multimedia, so they are kind of over exposed.

The Pokémon anime was licensed by the Pokémon Company, so the fact that Lucario appeared first in an anime movie (2005) before the video game is irrelevant. It's likely Lucario was already planned ahead of time to make a debut in Diamond and Pearl (2006).

Injustice had three Mortal Kombat characters, Hellboy, and the Ninja Turtles breaking the DC theme.

Injustice: Gods Among Us was developed by NetherRealm Studios, which had a part in developing Mortal Kombat. This is no different than Monolith Soft and Namco working on SSB4 and SSBU, which introduced Shulk and Pac-Man as playable characters. Monolith Soft also had a part in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. This might explain why there is Xenoblade 2 armor DLC in BotW. As for Hellboy, he's a comic book character, so it's not unusual for him to be in a comic-inspired video game. The Ninja Turtles are also comic book characters by Mirage Studios. There's also the Batman/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles crossover, so it's not peculiar for the Ninja Turtles to be in Injustice.

 

[Quillion]

A lot of threads here have Nintendo and third-party video game characters that are unlikely to happen. It should be fun to speculate other left field characters like Goku. We just shouldn't get too angry when our favorite characters don't make the cut like how Waluigi fans reacted. And besides, even if the likes of Giku gets in, that wouldn't really ruin the whole theme about Smash. Nintendo characters will still make up the majority of the roster, so it would still be a Nintendo All-Stars game. Dragon Ball has enough games on Nintendo consoles to justify someone like Goku getting in. There may be crazy licensing issues, but don't the third-party characters have crazy licensing to go through? That was why Snake was cut from Smash 4. But if the fanbase can't handle characters like Goku, maybe the next Smash game should cut all the third-parties and focus only on the Nintendo properties.

Non-video game characters have stricter licensing terms than video game characters when it comes to letting them in Smash, therein lies the issue.

 

[Cap’nKazam]

Perhaps a better way to describe Smash Bros.'s identity is this rule: was this character most likely to be discovered through Nintendo culture? Sonic, while a rival to Nintendo, had a rivalry that came to characterize an entire era of Nintendo's history, and is now largely identified with Nintendo consoles. Any major Sonic fan is almost guaranteed to know a thing or two about Super Mario because their identities are so irrevocably intertwined. Cloud, while never appearing on a Nintendo console before, can claim a similar rivalry as an important mascot for one of Nintendo's largest competitors, but he is also the face of a franchise that had tremendous impact of its own on Nintendo's history, and helped define what it is today in a few ways. Bayonetta as a franchise was singularly transformed by Nintendo's involvement, and is now functioning as a Nintendo exclusive. Any Bayonetta fans coming to Smash Bros. are likely to have discovered this character through Nintendo culture in one fashion or another. Each of these characters compliment the focus of the game: Nintendo, its rich history and plethora of unique characters, and those stories that have come to define it, as well as those it helped to define. Through Smash Bros, we get to dive deep into Nintendo's rich history - who would have ever known about Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Ice Climbers, Pit, or dare I say Fire Emblem, without this focus? While Goldeneye's near inclusion is a powerful thorn in the mind of Smash Bros. purists, it was only possible because of the legendary role that game had in defining Nintendo that era. Nintendo and Goldeneye are nearly synonymous in gaming because of each other.

Dragonball Z, while certainly bringing lots of people to Nintendo consoles, usually has people there because of Dragonball Z, not Nintendo. Dragonball Z is a franchise no Nintendo fan need ever learn about, and their knowledge of Nintendo heritage would not be hindered in the slightest. Likewise, no Dragonball Z fan need know much about Nintendo at all to be an avid Dragonball Z fan. They are disposable to each other - partnered only out of convenience, because they can promote cross-traffic. In other words, it is a quintessentially pragmatic, corporate partnership. There is no deep connection there beyond "my favorite anime has a game on this XBOX/PS/Nintendo console so I'm going to play one." Nothing that enriches the focal lens that defines what Smash Bros. is, which is Nintendo itself.

Remove that focus, and while Smash Bros. can be a fun game, it's stopped being about Nintendo. And with that loss, it stops focusing on the richness of Nintendo's own heritage, and the possibilities that can be explored and resurrected therein (Fire Emblem being the best example), and the focus becomes wild, broad to the point of diluted, and starkly lacking in identity. That this board is largely focused on resurrecting obscure Nintendo characters still (I never would have noticed fascinating characters like Lip, Isaac, Elma, or Bandana Dee next to heavyhitters like Spider-Man or Goku), is a strong indication Smash Bros is accomplishing exactly what it was supposed to: be a celebration, a time capsule, a gateway - for Nintendo itself. That is an identity to be proud of, and why I think Sakurai's hesitation against using fourth party characters is a very wise one.

 

[Quillion]

Perhaps a better way to describe Smash Bros.'s identity is this rule: was this character most likely to be discovered through Nintendo culture? Sonic, while a rival to Nintendo, had a rivalry that came to characterize an entire era of Nintendo's history, and is now largely identified with Nintendo consoles. Any major Sonic fan is almost guaranteed to know a thing or two about Super Mario because their identities are so irrevocably intertwined. Cloud, while never appearing on a Nintendo console before, can claim a similar rivalry as an important mascot for one of Nintendo's largest competitors, but he is also the face of a franchise that had tremendous impact of its own on Nintendo's history, and helped define what it is today in a few ways. Bayonetta as a franchise was singularly transformed by Nintendo's involvement, and is now functioning as a Nintendo exclusive. Any Bayonetta fans coming to Smash Bros. are likely to have discovered this character through Nintendo culture in one fashion or another. Each of these characters compliment the focus of the game: Nintendo, its rich history and plethora of unique characters, and those stories that have come to define it, as well as those it defined. Through Smash Bros, we get to dive deep into Nintendo's rich history - who would have ever known about Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., or dare I say Fire Emblem, without this focus? While Goldeneye's near inclusion is a powerful thorn in the mind of Smash Bros. purists, it was only possible because of the legendary role that game had in defining Nintendo that era. Nintendo and Goldeneye are nearly synonymous in gaming because of each other.

Dragonball Z, while certainly bringing lots of people to Nintendo consoles, are usually there because of Dragonball Z, not Nintendo. Dragonball Z is a franchise no Nintendo fan need ever learn about, and their knowledge of Nintendo heritage would not be hindered in the slightest. Likewise, no Dragonball Z fan need know much about Nintendo at all to be an avid Dragonball Z fan. They are disposable to each other - partnered only out of convenience, because they can promote cross-traffic. In other words, it is a quintessentially pragmatic, corporate partnership. There is no deep connection there beyond "my favorite anime has a game on this XBOX/PS/Nintendo console so I'm going to play one." Nothing that enriches the focal lens that defines what Smash Bros. is, which is Nintendo itself.

Remove that focus, and while Smash Bros. can be a fun game, it's stopped being about Nintendo. And with that loss, it stops focusing on the richness of Nintendo's own heritage, and the possibilities that can be explored and resurrected therein (Fire Emblem being the best example), and the focus becomes wild, broad to the point of diluted, and starkly lacking in identity. That this board is largely focused on resurrecting obscure Nintendo characters still (I never would have noticed fascinating characters like Lip, Elma, or Bandana Dee next to heavyhitters like Spider-Man or Goku), is a strong indication Smash Bros is accomplishing exactly what it was supposed to: be a celebration, a time capsule, a gateway - for Nintendo itself. That is an identity to be proud of, and why I think Sakurai's hesitation against using fourth party characters is a very wise one.

Frankly, I dislike that Nintendo's culture is on a different wavelength from the rest of gaming culture, but this is a good explanation.

That said, I hope several companies' efforts to expose the Nintendo crowd to different games (Bethesda, Blizzard) will close the gap.

 

[Cap’nKazam]

Thanks! I'm glad Nintendo's making moves to make more mainstream games available on its consoles, although I tend to disagree about the wavelength part. Nintendo is so bafflingly different from any other game companies out there right now (sometimes frustratingly so, sometimes wonderfully), that there's a sort of mad, whimsical, timeless quality about it. While other companies are raving about insane graphical power, VR, and online gaming, Nintendo almost innocently delights in presentations dallying about with cardboard toys. Their sense of imagination is so aloof and unpredictable that it honestly feels otherworldly at times. It's the reason games like Pikmin, Splatoon, or, frankly, Super Smash Bros., are possible in the first place, in a market saturated by serious narrative adventures, FPSes, and the like (wonderful as those may be). Integrate Nintendo with that, and I honestly think we stand to lose something very special to gaming. I like that Nintendo has such a cloistered culture. It maximizes innovation and creativity in a domain where a lot of games start to look really same-y. Nintendo's insistence on doing its own thing has revolutionized gaming in many ways - and, though we don't give them credit for it enough, have also been revolutionized those rare moments they have looked outside the window - and then made what they saw into something special and unique (such as what Breath of the Wild did with massive overworlds and endless inventories). Nintendo and the rest of gaming have a lot to gain from remaining distinct.

 

[Smash Lampjaw]

But if the fanbase can't handle characters like Goku, maybe the next Smash game should cut all the third-parties and focus only on the Nintendo properties.

This is a dangerous mindset. If somebody said that about Sora, you'd assume they're trying to step on everyone else's fun.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Unless someone where to specifically say something to me, I don't ever say anything about it. I really don't like the concept of non-video game characters in Smash. After you add one, a billion more will be request and added. And, like people stated above, the game becomes a mess and no longer feels like Smash. Not to mention it breaks an actual rule that Sakurai stated himself, which was also pointed out above, "Manga characters will not get in Smash". Unlike third parties (which were never ruled out by Sakurai himself), or Villager or Ridley where Sakurai just couldn't see how to fit them in, Goku (and presumably all other fourth parties) have been ruled out by him.
I am somewhat conservative when it comes to non-Nintendo characters getting in Smash, so I'm probably a bit biased haha.

 

[Quillion]

Unless someone where to specifically say something to me, I don't ever say anything about it. I really don't like the concept of non-video game characters in Smash. After you add one, a billion more will be request and added. And, like people stated above, the game becomes a mess and no longer feels like Smash. Not to mention it breaks an actual rule that Sakurai stated himself, which was also pointed out above, "Manga characters will not get in Smash". Unlike third parties (which were never ruled out by Sakurai himself), or Villager or Ridley where Sakurai just couldn't see how to fit them in, Goku (and presumably all other fourth parties) have been ruled out by him.
I am somewhat conservative when it comes to non-Nintendo characters getting in Smash, so I'm probably a bit biased haha.

My criteria for non-Nintendo characters is simple:

1. The character must hold a special place in Nintendo's unique history.
2. If not 1, then the character must hold such a special place in gaming history that it transcends their lack of presence in Nintendo's.

As far as non-video game characters go, I'd say only Batman and Goku hold the second distinction

 

[Shin F.]

My criteria for non-Nintendo characters is simple:

1. The character must hold a special place in Nintendo's unique history.
2. If not 1, then the character must hold such a special place in gaming history that it transcends their lack of presence in Nintendo's.

As far as non-video game characters go, I'd say only Batman and Goku hold the second distinction

This is the most succinct way that you could put this side of the debate. Bravo! Although, there are a very small handful of other non-video-game characters I would consider for the second distinction, I fully agree with the actual point.

 

[TechPowah]

People keep saying Cloud was never on a Nintendo platform
KH: Chain of Memories was on GBA, FF Theatrythm was on 3DS
heck, they showed Cloud being on a 3DS game in the same Direct he was announced for Smash in
like come on, at least research a bit beforehand

Anyway, wanting Goku is perfectly fine
it's thinking he actually is likely or will get in is the strange part

 

[Quillion]

People keep saying Cloud was never on a Nintendo platform
KH: Chain of Memories was on GBA, FF Theatrythm was on 3DS
heck, they showed Cloud being on a 3DS game in the same Direct he was announced for Smash in
like come on, at least research a bit beforehand

Honestly, I don't think it really matters whether Cloud was on a Nintendo platform or not. He still fulfills the second criteria that I stated:

If not 1, then the character must hold such a special place in gaming history that it transcends their lack of presence in Nintendo's.

 

[TechPowah]

It matters when people keep saying as part of their reasoning that Cloud being in means Smash doesn't care whether a given character has been on Nintendo or not
i'm not saying that it's for sure a "rule" but
none of the roster have gone against that so far

 

[Quillion]

It matters when people keep saying as part of their reasoning that Cloud being in means Smash doesn't care whether a given character has been on Nintendo or not
i'm not saying that it's for sure a "rule" but
none of the roster have gone against that so far

Sakurai explicitly called it a courtesy, though. So it does affect characters' chances, but not to the point that they are completely excluded.

Anyway, what I said about Goku being in Smash still stands. Shueisha can offer Nintendo and/or Sora Ltd. bundles of cash to put Goku in. I don't think Sakurai will be able to refuse at that point.

 

[GambitGameGuy]

I secretly want him only for the memes and moveset potential, but other than that I just sigh.

Well, it's not exactly a secret anymore

 

[GambitGameGuy]

I just tell them to go play Dragon Ball FighterZ, where they can run a team consisting of Goku, Goku, and Goku. You'd think that would suffice.

You could make that argument for lots of characters. "Oh, you want geno? Just go play mario rpg." "Oh, you want octolings? Just go play octo expansion." Oh, you want sora? Just go play kingdom hearts."

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

“Hey, your loss.”

 

[GambitGameGuy]

I get angry for a second, then I remember that he's never going to happen and stick my nose up at them

Why, because of the "rule" of no non-video game-origin characters? I can vaguely recall that there used to be a "rule" of no non-nintendo-owned characters, and whatever happened to that?

 

[MSmariosonic]

Why, because of the "rule" of no non-video game-origin characters? I can vaguely recall that there used to be a "rule" of no non-nintendo-owned characters, and whatever happened to that?

There was?

 

[GambitGameGuy]

There was?

No, there wasn't. And there's no rule against characters like goku either. If anyone wants to give me some proof that sakurai ever said otherwise, please do so

 

[Cap’nKazam]

No, there wasn't. And there's no rule against characters like goku either. If anyone wants to give me some proof that sakurai ever said otherwise, please do so

That's actually incorrect. Sakurai gave an interview on this once, which you can read in the link for its full context. Quoting from the translation:

“Manga characters will not join the battle (obviously). While it’s true that we’ve added characters from other companies,
It’s not going to be anyone and everyone."

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/

Sakurai's never made a rule against non-Nintendo characters, however, that I have observed. Maybe he's changed his mind since then, but there's no indication that that's the case. I also think (for reasons explained in a slightly earlier post), it would be best if he kept it this way, personally.

That said, it would be cool to see Mario and Goku duke it out in another non-Smash Bros. setting. Nintendo vs Jump Force? I'd grab it.

 

[MSmariosonic]

No, there wasn't. And there's no rule against characters like goku either. If anyone wants to give me some proof that sakurai ever said otherwise, please do so

The man compared Goku to the lieks of Spongebob, mate.
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/22/mewtwo-dlc-takamaru-and-sakurais-nico-nico-appearance/

Not to mention that the ballot specifically stated that people should vote for "videogame-characters"

Spoiler: image

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Never. Gonna. Happen.

“Manga characters will not join the battle (obviously).
While it’s true that we’ve added characters from other companies,
It’s not going to be anyone and everyone."

-Masahiro Sakurai (http://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/)

Read it and weep. Sakurai himself said that Manga (and anime for that matter, if you count them as different) characters will not join Smash. Which includes Goku, if you're willing to accept that. (If you're not, continue re-reading this quote from Masahiro Sakurai himself until it hits you.)

Yes I know the 2 people above also quoted this but this is probably the best context (and I wasn't a part of that conversation above).

 

[Cap’nKazam]

Hey now, no call for them fightin’ words. It’s awesome Sakurai’s pulled together such a wide, diverse community of support that makes this game possible in the first place. Let’s keep this community fun and growing. Goku may not be qualified for Smash, but Goku fans (including yours truly) certainly have a home here.

 

[Kabutops]

I just want one Smash game with a near-perfect roster of video game characters before they inevitably open the flood gates to non-video game characters.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

You could make that argument for lots of characters. "Oh, you want geno? Just go play mario rpg." "Oh, you want octolings? Just go play octo expansion." Oh, you want sora? Just go play kingdom hearts."

Except Geno isn't available in a fighting game custom tailored for his mechanics. Octolings aren't (to our best current knowledge) available in a fighting game custom tailored for their mechanics. Sora isn't in a fighting game custom tailored for his mechanics.

Goku, Goku, Goku, and Goku (there's at least four of him!) are available in Dragon Ball FighterZ, which is specifically designed to house Goku, Goku, Goku, and Goku. It's even a good game, and it's on Switch. I'd like to think this would be sufficient for Goku fans, and instead hope that Sakurai would focus limited development resources on making someone else happy.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't care too much. I may chuckle, but I'll keep my opinions to myself.
I personally don't want Goku and I believe he won't ever happen, but if people want him in Smash, then whatever lol.

 

[roymustang1990-]

I would nt care if gok u was made playable

 

[Kabutops]

Honestly, I think it could realistically happen in the future. There is an issue with diminishing returns with adding hype video game characters. We're running out of character reveals that can break the internet. And if there's a threshold of hype each Smash entry must meet in order to reach a desired sales goal, then Nintendo will have a choice of either doing something fun, creative and original with the series or start adding non-video game characters. For better or for worse, I see Nintendo choosing the latter. Big companies don't like taking the risk of changing a successful formula.

 

[Starchy]

Kindly disagree and instead offer the patrician opinion that Star Platinum should be in the game.

 

[Quillion]

What if Sakurai breaks the non-video game characters rule because Shueisha pays him to do so?

He's clearly not going to listen to fans about Goku, but what about Goku's owners?

 

[Kabutops]

Thanks! I'm glad Nintendo's making moves to make more mainstream games available on its consoles, although I tend to disagree about the wavelength part. Nintendo is so bafflingly different from any other game companies out there right now (sometimes frustratingly so, sometimes wonderfully), that there's a sort of mad, whimsical, timeless quality about it. While other companies are raving about insane graphical power, VR, and online gaming, Nintendo almost innocently delights in presentations dallying about with cardboard toys. Their sense of imagination is so aloof and unpredictable that it honestly feels otherworldly at times. It's the reason games like Pikmin, Splatoon, or, frankly, Super Smash Bros., are possible in the first place, in a market saturated by serious narrative adventures, FPSes, and the like (wonderful as those may be). Integrate Nintendo with that, and I honestly think we stand to lose something very special to gaming. I like that Nintendo has such a cloistered culture. It maximizes innovation and creativity in a domain where a lot of games start to look really same-y. Nintendo's insistence on doing its own thing has revolutionized gaming in many ways - and, though we don't give them credit for it enough, have also been revolutionized those rare moments they have looked outside the window - and then made what they saw into something special and unique (such as what Breath of the Wild did with massive overworlds and endless inventories). Nintendo and the rest of gaming have a lot to gain from remaining distinct.

This nicely sums up my view of Nintendo. I did not grow up with Nintendo so I had the privilege of watching my favorite franchises get utterly destroyed through corporate greed. I subsequently developed a fondness for indie games since I had an acute understanding of the dangers of what can happen to your video game creation, your work of art, when you sign a contract with another company. But Nintendo has continually surprised me with their class, their good character, over the past couple of decades. Even when I see a blatant cash grab from them I still have a hard time hating them since there's so much that they do right. Unlike their chief competitors - whom I loath and never buy from - Nintendo IS a respectable company. They actually have artistic vision. In a way they're somewhat comparable to Apple (when it was under the leadership of Jobs) in that they're always doing their own unique thing, blazing a trail for their less creative, less inspired competitors to follow. I even sometimes view Nintendo as a life raft amid a sea of drowning 3rd party franchises where, by the grace of God, your favorite franchise could wind up in Nintendo's hands instead of frickin' EA or Activision (this of course never happens but its nice to dream).

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Simply roll my eyes at those people and move on. Simple as that.

I mean for crying out loud he's not even an video game character to begin with and that's the only way you can get in. Even Master Chief and Scorpion would have better chances and they don't have any shot in making the cut.