How do YOU kill with Marth?

[tuestresfat]

As sad as this sounds I've been having a ton of trouble getting kills. I'm able to rack up the damage pretty nicely with aerials, dancing blades, etc. But then I notice my opponents live to like 140-160% with freaken light-weights... i.e. Zelda, Toon Link, Pikachu, G&W.

An average game involves me abusing SH Fairs, Uairs, Ftilts, and Dancing Blades like no other. Then I chase em around when they're like 130% trying to kill them and only get the kill when they're ~150%

I don't find Fsmash that good unless it's tippered and I get destroyed if I miss or if they shield it.

Most of my kills thus far come from Nairs and Utilts but again... I'm not killing with those until really high percents. I thought Marth was a character with amazing KO abilities?

I get an occasional kill with UpB but I usually use it in the spur of a moment to punish a roll or to break out of a combo. I haven't actually TRIED using it to kill. I guess it has to do with the fear of missing and getting owned after

Isn't there a more reliable way to kill other than tippers?
All comments appreciated =] btw yes, I'm somewhat new to using Marth. Picked him up a couple weeks ago


Oh one last thing! My friend vaguely told me to try Usmashing OOS... I'm not really finding it very useful though. Does anyone do this? Is it good? lol

 

[-Ran]

Up-Smash out of shield.
Dolphin Slash out of shield. [Only as a response to an attack.]
Up Tilt.
Bair off the edge.
Fair off the edge.
Nair off the edge.
F-Tilt.
Dancing Blade.

This thread goes into detail about them:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5519352

Really the key is that once your opponent is at around 130, a single grab can net you 4-5 pummels, maybe more if they aren't struggling. Most people aren't since they see no point in it. You utilize this to refresh your moves, and if they ground break, you may even be able to get yet another grab to completely refresh everything.

 

[Saki-]

I have the same problem man, I was just asking the locals around me how they KO.

;-; good to know I'm not the only person who doesn't understand how to KO.

 

[dean.]

If they make a mistake and you get the chance to punish, I use dsmash or Dolphin Slash (or even utilt), which are all quick attacks that are powerful even when not tipped.
If they don't, I usually wait until an oppotunity to land a tipped aerial. Trying to 'force' a kill when an opponent reaches 130%+ is not a good strategy for Marth (or any other character), and all of Marth's aerials have good range and zoning uses, and all of them kill to an extent (notably nair, bair and uair).

 

[Pr0phetic]

To be honest, it's always a mix of all my smashes and all my aerials. Sometimes I'd sneak and UpB and Utilt kill in there.

 

[Albert.]

This is really all you need to know, directly from our friend Junk:

Topic #1 - Patience on the Kill
I cannot stress how important this is for Marth. Against someone good you can lose an entire stock just spamming smashes or even what you think is "smart" use of smashes at high percents.

None of Marth's smashes are safe. Every time you hit a shield with any of Marth's smashes you get punished. Marth's smashes are punishers.

You shouldn't be using any of these smashes in any sort of predictable fashion, like when they're at high percents. They expect the smash so the chances of it actually working go down significantly.

If they weren't aware of the smashes before, as soon as you use a smash once even if you've somehow done it safely, it's now in the opponents immediate memory that that's what you're going for. And they will do a good job avoiding it.

However, Marth has other kill moves!

Every single aerial can kill. u-tilt can kill. Even db up version can kill the light characters.

Your f-air is stale? Either do one db combo, grab pummel (you should get in a significant amount if they're at high percents), or just don't use f-air. You have plenty of other options but having a fresh f-air on an opponent at the edge of a stage is an extremely powerful tool to have.

Marth has a lot of kill moves but none of them are completely reliable. You can't really think about which one you want to use. They're all reactionary and/or situationally predictive.

Sometimes the opponent won't let you hit with anything but staled f-air or grab. That's fine. Be patient. They will start showing a predictable pattern or mess up eventually, especially at high percents. When people are cornered or feel vulnerable, that's when the most obvious patterns come out, and that's what Marth should take advantage on.

Another key aspect to keep in mind is to not do a death move when it has no chance of killing as it will stale it in the process. Marth's smashes have a faster degeneration than other moves.

Summary
Expect that the opponent expects the smashes and the Dolphin Slash out of shield. If they're good they will even bait it. Use your other moves and always remember your fresh aerials. If you do a have an opportunity for a kill move make sure you've spaced it so it actually kills. If you aren't sure if your smash will kill it's better to do a setup move or a damage racking move that refreshes your other moves so you can push the opponent into percents where you can kill with moves that are safer, like your aerials.

I personally find that most of my kills come from Utilt or Fair/Nair/Bair

 

[Zero Hour]

down throw... but only on Tuesdays

The rest of the days I kill with either Fsmash, DS, Dair(if im lucky), and sometimes hyphen smash or Dsmash if its fresh.

 

[uhmuzing]

Fair offstage. Then sometimes a DB offstage.

 

[tuestresfat]

This is really all you need to know, directly from our friend Junk:





I personally find that most of my kills come from Utilt or Fair/Nair/Bair

Thanks, that was pretty informative.

probably a noob question: how do I do an immediate reverse dolphin slash? I saw a few marths using this to punish when an opponent rolls behind them

 

[Albert.]

you tilt the control stick diagnal up and opposite you're facing

if you're facing left and they roll through you to the right, then you would do up/right diagnoal.

really you just need to practice it in training mode to get it accurate 100%

 

[Shaya]

Marth has enough tools to force unfavourable situations on their opponent that results in getting kill moves off.
Be glad you have reasonably powerful moves that come out faster than human reaction.

Like simply his fast fall speed forcing an airdodge from the potential uair/nair that would kill into a smash move. Simple. Effective.

Poor Game & Watch.

You've also got the first hit of nair stuff if you've got an opponent really 'stuck' in their shield (i.e. giving you time to poke them with it and pressure etc).

 

[C.J.]

Shaya, I'm sad. You only talk about Marth's (admittedly awesome) fast fall speed now. No more nair love.

 

[tuestresfat]

Marth has enough tools to force unfavourable situations on their opponent that results in getting kill moves off.
Be glad you have reasonably powerful moves that come out faster than human reaction.

Like simply his fast fall speed forcing an airdodge from the potential uair/nair that would kill into a smash move. Simple. Effective.

Poor Game & Watch.

You've also got the first hit of nair stuff if you've got an opponent really 'stuck' in their shield (i.e. giving you time to poke them with it and pressure etc).

I don't get the G&W reference but thanks anyway

I guess I'm just used to (probably not a good thing) getting my opponents to a specific percent range and then looking for the kill with 1-2 finishing moves. I got away with it maining snake (utilt) and ZSS (bair) for awhile but I guess I can't really do that with marth. Its a bad habit I should stop anyways

 

[Pr0phetic]

Shaya, I'm sad. You only talk about Marth's (admittedly awesome) fast fall speed now. No more nair love.

Shaya takes no favorites, only flavor of the months. I guess this time it would be Marth's sex FF

I don't get the G&W reference but thanks anyway

Basically GnW is screwed by Marth's shield pressure/traps into kill moves.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth is stupidly good at getting kills consistently...just keep spacing aerials until you get a tipper. Don't bother trying to get kills early unless you know your opponent screws up. The kill will happen if you just keep hitting your opponent. Generally speaking it's not hard to save a particular aerial for KOs either. If they don't SDI dancing blade getting the kill is even easier to do because of DB's stupid damage output.

The "safest" way to get a fairly early kill imo is fresh Up-B out of shield. Alternatively you can also bait a shieldgrab and fastfall F-air -> Up-B and this beats shieldgrabbing if you do it correctly. D-smash out of shield or spotdodge is also a good option.

 

[Megavitamins]

sh bair oos always tippers for me, and kills at decent percents

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mentioning B-air, people usually underestimate its vertical range when you edgeguard with it.

 

[Crackle]

Gotta back you up there A2Z, those tactics extremely helped my Marth on your G&W

 

[mars16]

His down Aeriial is a good spike move

Up smash is a good kill move

 

[Albert.]

His down Aeriial is a good spike move

All top pro marfs get at least 19 down aeriial spikes per match.

 

[Albert.]

Alternatively you can also bait a shieldgrab and fastfall F-air -> Up-B and this beats shieldgrabbing if you do it correctly.

OR they could bait your Up-B, shield that too, and then wreck you with a free KO move of choice while you're in lag and helpless.

 

[Dr.Brawl]

Usually F smash , D smash, U tilt, U Smash Dolphin Slash , b air or D air are good kill moves

 

[LooftWaffles]

Charged USmash ftw

 

[Shaya]

Nair is amazing.

when I can be ****ed to space that mother like a ****er I **** kids.

 

[.AC.]

you dont need to attempt a ko unless you get an opportunity, you should be playing as if they were at 0% regardless of how damage they have while of course trying to ko if an opportunity appears.

 

[tuestresfat]

are you guys serious about dair? i thought it was basically useless unless you're going for a clutch win or MK grab-release

 

[Kishin]

I use the mindgame -> shieldbreak -> taunt -> **** combo for reliable kills.

 

[Duskshadow]

I use the mindgame -> shieldbreak -> taunt -> **** combo for reliable kills.

Best combo in Brawl, in my opinion. I usually kill with fsmash at around 130-150%. However, this is only after my opponent has made a mistake. Don't go looking for a kill, this will just get you *****. I should know, I have had enough experience with that.

 

[ChibixD]

Try DB1> Dsmash
DB1> Utilt
Fast fall nair bad spaced> Up B

(you really dont need to land de first move)

Pumels> ground release> dsmash
short hop air dodge> dsmash

Just try ^^
Its fun

 

[A2ZOMG]

OR they could bait your Up-B, shield that too, and then wreck you with a free KO move of choice while you're in lag and helpless.

Easier said than done if they think they can shieldgrab the average badly spaced move.

And furthermore, punishing landings is stupidly hard in Brawl, so you can get away with it to some extent depending on the stage.

Gotta back you up there A2Z, those tactics extremely helped my Marth on your G&W

Whoa, didn't expect you to find me here.

 

[kbear]

Definitely use Nair when the opponent is getting into the hundred percent range. If the spacing is good, then you should be able to knock the opponent quite far away, if not a kill.

 

[Z1GMA]

Grab N pummel like crazy at around 100%.
Getting in 6 pummels + a throw (7 inputs) isn't impossible.
And it pretty much gives you back all the raw power you need to kill your opponent with your quick and semi-strong aerials.

 

[∫unk]

Grab N pummel like crazy at around 100%.
Getting in 6 pummels + a throw (7 inputs) isn't impossible.
And it pretty much gives you back all the raw power you need to kill your opponent with your quick and semi-strong aerials.

this entire post is wrong.

marth has a fast pummel it doesnt refresh the moveset unless you do slow pummels, otherwise it counts like a full jab combo (while single jabs count as seperate moves). characters like metaknight and ddd every pummel counts becaues they are so slow. regardless its not like fast pummel characters get a better move refresher through the pummel. otherwise wofls bair would be constantly fresh lol

also, your opponents arent breaking out fast enough. if youre decent at breaking out you can get out of ONE pummel anything below 100 with normal reactions. if youre good at predicting when you get grabbed you can start buffering your break out before you even get grabbed which means even less pummels for the opponent. i havent ever done more than 2 vs someone that knows how to break out at 150.

one thing most people dont know is the c-stick is not great for breaking out you should just ignore it. also spinning your analog completely is a waste you want to do like a sideways "D" motion with the analog.

marth has so many kill moves just let the kill come to you (same advice for anyone really). most kills need to be set up vs someone good (ledge trap/air chase/tech chase) thats why great players like AC are saying just play like theyre at 0. theyll be forced into a bad situation because theyre playing conservatively (ex. they start shielding a lot so you get a grab), then you cover their safest or most likely option (continuing the example, if you f-throw depending on their previous reaction you can punish or the most likely one is just air dodge to the ground).

youre definitely not killing anyone good at 100 unless it was a gimp situation. probably more like 150 vs metaknight. vs ddd youre looking at anywhere between 180-200.

 

[ChibixD]

youre definitely not killing anyone good at 100 unless it was a gimp situation. probably more like 150 vs metaknight. vs ddd youre looking at anywhere between 180-200.

Shield Breaker sends a kiss
Tipper fsmash sends a hug

 

[Rubberbandman]

Shield Breaker sends a kiss
Tipper fsmash sends a hug

I found junks post informative.

SB pretty much counts as a gimp.
Tipper F Smash is like luck.

 

[Mr-R]

Definitely use Nair when the opponent is getting into the hundred percent range. If the spacing is good, then you should be able to knock the opponent quite far away, if not a kill.

rlly depends against what char nair isn't that good against most small chars

 

[kbear]

rlly depends against what char nair isn't that good against most small chars

Ah, good call. I just noticed this while brawling my friend, who just happens to main ness.
Still got the bloke though.

 

[Masterchef1123]

Toon link isn't a light weight first of all he's middle weight
and the way you get kills is to create a situation where u can use a charged smash attack or
just continue to beat them with the c-stick they die even on low smash attacks if there a light weight

 

[ChibixD]

I found junks post informative.

SB pretty much counts as a gimp.
Tipper F Smash is like luck.

Its surely informative^^

but "definitely not" is too solid...
maybe "generally"

And retreating nair is a good way to get the kill IMO

 

[GPEternity]

I think Marth's best option for landing a kill move is to wait til the op presents itself, but definitely try to set it up if you can. How you set it up depends on the character your fighting and how they are played. If you know a way to set up a kill on your opponent, and they know it too, they'll make sure to avoid that set up, but that means you can feign the set up and set something else up, or delay the set up.

By and large, most people will get more defensive when they're at higher percents, so usually you can use that against them, the simplest way is to space an fair or two and poke at their shield, and the next time you hop over to fair them, throw out a shieldbreaker instead. If their primary conern is to shield your tippers, then their shield gets shattered and you have a free kill.

You also have to keep in mind which of your moves are fresh, which are most stale, and how hits/grabs/throws will affect them at a certain percent. You wouldn't go for a fthrow -> fsmash if they're already at 90. But you probably would if they were at 0. If they muck up big time you would want to hit them with a fresh fsmash rather than a stale DB. And if you've been using DS OoS a lot you would want to use Usmash OoS for the kill instead. And given all of these, you should watch what your opponent is keen on avoiding. If they always recover low so you can't juggle them, the edgehog becomes a tool. But if they always recover high you would want to bait airdodges and uair them instead.

Some characters have a hard time with certain recoveries, like marth has a hard time recovering horizontally, use these weaknesses to set up gimps.

Grabs are awesome, at any percent. As you get into higher percentages you can mindgame your opponents with grabs to set up kill moves early. My favorite is fthrow -> nair which is really dangerous on the edge, and at lot of the knockback is horizontal which is great. fthrow -> nair works at medium - high percentages. At death percentages its less reliable, but when they get up there marth's uthrow gets better since you can juggle trap them into an uair or utilt which will kill them. and if you condition your opponent with fthrow, you create the option of a bthrow or dthrow which turns their DI against them and might give you a bair for kill. speaking of bairs, bairs off the ledge ****. but nair is still my favorite aerial.

overall i think the most important thing is patience and planning. setting up kills starts from the beginning of the match. how you condition your opponent on the first stock can have an impact on how you take the last one from them. you just gotta remember to kill your kill moves fresh and know where/when you can set something up and where/when you should wait for them to mess up. often times the two can be related, sometimes they arent. Just never lose your cool or you'll start randomly throwing out smashes and get ***** for it.