Zonderion
Smash Ace
Wow, that song brought back some memories of Pure Pwnage. I wish they'd do another season.
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How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?
- Thread starter VA3TO
- Start date
Fine, I'll reiterate my point. We are arguing that this game's competitive and casual appeal need not be mutually exclusive. The beauty of melee was that it was the favorite game of casual players, competitive players, and everyone in between. ATs don't affect casual gamers because they probably won't ever know that they exist. Even if they do, they won't care because they are by definition casual players. But I argue that good (key word here) ATs add depth to the game and thus make it more enjoyable for the competitive players.Sakurai is making this game so it's fun and it will sell. Sure he realizes some people play smash competitively but he's not gonna include all these "advanced techniques" on purpose, sure there may be some that are found when it comes out but he wants everyone to enjoy this game. The little kids who get to play after their homework is done before bedtime, the casuals who just play with friends and the competitive folks.
Silly competitive people thinking they are the only ones Sakurai is trying to satisfy when making a smash game LOL
I hope this game is slower and more floaty than Brawl, lets see people make a crappy melee version of this too
And anyone who is suggesting to seperate "casual" and "competitive" are...well not right in the head and don't understand that's exactly what they DON'T want.
If Sakurai is smart he'll make a game that is on surface level a fun party game for casuals but has the potential to be played extremely technically at a frantic pace with practice. That's what melee was. People still play melee. 13 years later people will donate a almost a hundred grand to see it at a big tournament. With this huge launch opportunity for smash4, who knows what kind of fan base he could have for literally decades if he does this right.
But by the looks of it, this isn't going to happen. And you crybabies who got beat by the people that put the work and time into the game aren't helping.
peeup
Smash Lord
All I had to do was read the first page of Great Expectations to understand everything the book has to offer.All I had to do was read the first page to see all the derps, but thanks for a useless reply
It's really frustrating when a lot of people are trying to have an informed discussion and then somebody just jumps in like that with nothing to add and no concept of what is going on.
@Barbs: Preach, man.
grizby2
Smash Lord
How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?
well, first off, casual players need to learn how to get a feel of the game. to know what the game physics can provide them with.
this is how most of us learn to play ANY video game.
"advanced Techniques" allow us to play a game in a much more efficient way, and can take some time to get it right. the next step in using advanced techniques, is applying them to real situations (which takes more time to perfect since the opportunity to do an advanced technique may not always present itself).
we aren't perpetually performing advanced techniques, we only do them when necessary. there are even some cases where they aren't the better option (like a wall tech at the wrong time).
so what it boils down to is who can perform these techniques at the right moments. Using advanced techniques doesn't necessarily guarantee victory.
its not like casual players DON'T want to get better. they're gonna try to win, even if they attempt to do so poorly. after losing for a bit, they're going to ask themselves questions:
"how is he/she doing that?"
"how can I do that?"
"what am I doing wrong?"
"what other ways can i approach in this situation?"
if they try to answer these things on their own,they're doing what is called.....well..practicing, which is what we all went through
.
advanced techniques in smash bros are generally easy to do, its not like theres a 50 button input command to do a ground tech....theres "practice" and then there's "overly intricate."
take a look at Ivy's special grab move from Soul Calibur "Calamity Symphony "
at least theres nothing like this in smash, and let me tell you first hand, it takes a ton of effort to pull it off.
its things like that, that keep casuals from actually wanting to get better. smash bros is the first competitive game ive seen that gives "casuals" the chance to become professionals with the least amount of having to be 100% perfect.
smash bros... intense AND easy. jus' beautiful. 's great.
well, first off, casual players need to learn how to get a feel of the game. to know what the game physics can provide them with.
this is how most of us learn to play ANY video game.
"advanced Techniques" allow us to play a game in a much more efficient way, and can take some time to get it right. the next step in using advanced techniques, is applying them to real situations (which takes more time to perfect since the opportunity to do an advanced technique may not always present itself).
we aren't perpetually performing advanced techniques, we only do them when necessary. there are even some cases where they aren't the better option (like a wall tech at the wrong time).
so what it boils down to is who can perform these techniques at the right moments. Using advanced techniques doesn't necessarily guarantee victory.
its not like casual players DON'T want to get better. they're gonna try to win, even if they attempt to do so poorly. after losing for a bit, they're going to ask themselves questions:
"how is he/she doing that?"
"how can I do that?"
"what am I doing wrong?"
"what other ways can i approach in this situation?"
if they try to answer these things on their own,they're doing what is called.....well..practicing, which is what we all went through
. advanced techniques in smash bros are generally easy to do, its not like theres a 50 button input command to do a ground tech....theres "practice" and then there's "overly intricate."
take a look at Ivy's special grab move from Soul Calibur "Calamity Symphony "
at least theres nothing like this in smash, and let me tell you first hand, it takes a ton of effort to pull it off.
its things like that, that keep casuals from actually wanting to get better. smash bros is the first competitive game ive seen that gives "casuals" the chance to become professionals with the least amount of having to be 100% perfect.
smash bros... intense AND easy. jus' beautiful. 's great.
Like the casuals they were defending, they quit because they got stomped by people with more knowledge and research.
Mr.Showtime
Smash Ace
Sakurai is making this game so it's fun and it will sell. Sure he realizes some people play smash competitively but he's not gonna include all these "advanced techniques" on purpose, sure there may be some that are found when it comes out but he wants everyone to enjoy this game. The little kids who get to play after their homework is done before bedtime, the casuals who just play with friends and the competitive folks.
Silly competitive people thinking they are the only ones Sakurai is trying to satisfy when making a smash game LOL
I hope this game is slower and more floaty than Brawl, lets see people make a crappy melee version of this too
And anyone who is suggesting to seperate "casual" and "competitive" are...well not right in the head and don't understand that's exactly what they DON'T want.
You have zero idea of how marketing and game design works. If you are trolling then kudos to you, but I honestly think you are just plain ignorant. You need to hit all possible demographics and make the majority happy. You can EASILY make both sides of the spectrum entertained by having simple options (which were included in EVERY SINGLE SMASH GAME) such as the ability to allow items and stage selection.
There is not one game out there that can not be play competitively. I'm sure people have done speed runs of Barbie's Playhouse...
Once again, you can not force someone to play a game a certain way. If they want to play casually, let them. IF they want to play competitively, let them. It is not rocket science. How many times must I iterate this? I've said it now at least 10 times in the past month. The only way this is possible is to remove the option of "CHOICE" for the player. If a player can not make a decision it is no longer a game. Its a movie.
I'm a competitive player and I'm fine with having casual aspects to the game, but stupid outbursts such as this make me question humanity.
SmashBro99
Smash Champion
So much nerdrage...
Ogre_Deity_Link
Smash Lord
Congratulations. You just made the Pro-AT crowd look worse. Do everyone a favor and grow up.
I also really dislike this complete dichotomy that there are only two types of people in Smash: The "Complete n00b/scrub casual crowd with no knowledge of their characters, attacks, hitstun, strategies, ect." and The "Competitive, Hard-Working, Know Everything about their characters, blah-blah-blah even without technique crowd." Is it really that far of a stretch to assume that there are people out there who could be a viable threat if it weren't for ATs? I mean, everyone keep saying that a competitive player will always beat a casual player even without ATs, but that's assuming that every single "casual" player out there either is ignorant or refuses to know anything about their character.
P.S.: And no, the "causals" didn't quit because we were getting beat, or whatever helps you sleep at night. Most of us quit because we realized trying to convince people like you otherwise was like trying to pull teeth from a chicken and realized we had better things to do with our lives. (I admit, I'm bored, so I don't have anything better to do.)
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Silly competitive people thinking they are the only ones Sakurai is trying to satisfy when making a smash game LOL
I hope this game is slower and more floaty than Brawl, lets see people make a crappy melee version of this too
Croph
Hold Baroque Inside
The more I read this thread the more I question what defines a "competitive" player. I think I would like to know what the hell am I before I make a post lol.
So, what do you call a person like me who takes time to learn and practice ATs and applies them to day-to-day fights, but has never been to a tournament (including online ladders, etc)? I like to learn the mechanics, physics, and the metagame, hence why when I first learned about Brawl and Melee's ATs I tried my best to practice them. Did wavedashing come easy? For me, nope. But I kept practicing, though I'm still not perfect at preforming them. The funny thing is that I've just got a new GC controller (not made by Nintendo, mind you). But because of how it's overly sensitive, I can preform wavedashing more successfully.
The question is, do I want ATs to become easier? I personally don't wish for that. Like I said, I don't mind taking the time learning these things (I can't say the same thing for others, however). Makes me feel as though I am accomplished, y'know.
So, what do you call a person like me who takes time to learn and practice ATs and applies them to day-to-day fights, but has never been to a tournament (including online ladders, etc)? I like to learn the mechanics, physics, and the metagame, hence why when I first learned about Brawl and Melee's ATs I tried my best to practice them. Did wavedashing come easy? For me, nope. But I kept practicing, though I'm still not perfect at preforming them. The funny thing is that I've just got a new GC controller (not made by Nintendo, mind you). But because of how it's overly sensitive, I can preform wavedashing more successfully.
The question is, do I want ATs to become easier? I personally don't wish for that. Like I said, I don't mind taking the time learning these things (I can't say the same thing for others, however). Makes me feel as though I am accomplished, y'know.
lol relax, I was only kidding. Sheesh.
What a clever way to back out of an argument.
So much nerdrage...
"C'mon guise, I was only pretending to be an idiot. Lollll I'm such a troll."
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I stopped posting because I'm sick of you people putting words in my mouth or telling me that I'm arguing something that I'm not. Like Edresses' post last page, asserting that the issue with ATs is that somehow they enable us to beat casuals, and that's somehow a problem, when the entire time that was never the argument.
The argument was that it enables casuals to lose in ways that are entirely unfun to them, thus creating rifts between us and them, which creates a worse overall community and robs us of players. And that, if one accepts the assumption that the aim of Smash Bros. is NOT to maximize competitive depth, that this is an acceptable reason to remove ATs, because even if we want them and they increase depth, they do it in ways which are not conducive to a healthy atmosphere between casuals and competitive players.
But you keep ignoring that and making the argument about how it's perfectly fair for casuals to lose, therefore it doesn't matter how they lose, even though not a single person has ever said that the point of removing ATs is to make it easier for casuals to win matches against seasoned competitive players.
We're not arguing with you because you're thick, you don't pay attention to our posts, you put words in our mouths, and arguing with you is tantamount to punching a mountain with your fists: it gets you nowhere and you're dealing with something that has just as little intelligence.
Mr.Showtime
Smash Ace
I think the word "competitive" is a broad term. Competitive to me means someone who is constantly learning and trying to get better though practice. Thing is I find having to push myself to get better at something "fun".
To me casual is for the people that just want to just play for "fun" in a non-competitive sense. When trying doesn't matter too much and you are playing just for good laughs.(Notice that I used fun in both definitions because I'm unable to truly define what fun is).
The best way I can describe it is through examples:
Starcraft 2:
Competitive - Ranked Matches
Casual - Custom Games
League of Legends:
Competitive - Ranked Matches
Casual - All Random All Middle
Halo:
Competitive - Battle Rifle and Certain Stages
Casual - Randomized weapons at randomized locations
Smash:
Competitive - Items off and certain stages
Casual - Items on, random stages.
If I am wrong (which I can be) please correct me on the meaning of competitive and casual. I'm all for this discussion and am curious to what interpretations you guys have of each of these meanings. I can't give a direct definition...they feel like very subjective words.
Mr.Showtime
Smash Ace
I don't see why you have to force yourself to play with people you don't want to. I mean...it does suck to lose. I've been in situations in games before where losing a bunch just kept me uninterested in a game. I finally learned that it wasn't the game's fault, but rather me. This is the reason I don't do well in shooters and I try to stay away from that genre. I'm just not good at it. I still play Gears of Wars and Halo for fun, even though I know I will lose against friends. I don't play the game online because I don't want to. I want to play it for good laughs.
If I don't want to play it competitively...I don't have to. No one is forcing me to play those games a certain way. No one is forcing me to play against people that are great at those games.
I think what I'm boiling down to is this: Try not to hope for a game to be created just for you unless you are the one creating it.
SmashBro99
Smash Champion
Looks like it's still working, kids these days :D
@ the last few posts
I'm casual, I guess but I like to turn items off and play on stages with no/limited hazards most of the time :O
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
You people? What do you mean by "You people"? Racism...lol just playin'.
But in all seriousness, I understand where you are coming from, but how can a casual player lose in a way that's fun to them? The average player finds little to no distinction in how they lost. Depending on your attitude it CAN mean something but 9 times out of 10 the ends don't justify the means.
Edreese was right in his statement, though, a player will be beaten in the same fashion regardless of what technical aspects of the game are there. I can't imagine being 4/3 stocked is fun for anyone, so what you are proposing is that a player sandbags? When it's appropriate (Like in any match outside of a tournament), sure. If money is on the line, then it's not recommended you do that. It's really hard to imagine a fun way for a player to lose, especially if that casual player is just going to blame the victor rather than evaluating his mistakes.
What players need to start thinking when they lose is "I can only do better" rather than "I wish that I could make them worse".
@SmashBros99: Refer to my last post
So then what's the point? They lose with them and without, the only thing removing the AT accomplished was making the highlevel slightly more attainable, less nuanced and generally more dull. It's not a worthy trade off if you keep in mind that all the changes were made to suite the smallest and most vocal part of the fan base, the pseudo competitor.
Well first and foremost, most casuals would take getting decimated by somebody using at's pretty well. You cant crush somebody's competitive spirit if they have none to begin with. It doesn't matter how a pseudo competitor lost, they'll label anything that they don't have a grasp of to be cheap or gay. No amount of technical wizardry expressed via game design will lessen the pain experienced when losing, so the schism between casual and hardcore is inevitable. It's not a bad thing, casual and hardcore play the game for different reasons. That is what I consider the spirit of smash brothers, flexability. It's not to maximize technical depth, but its not about making casual players want to become competitive player either.
You're under the impression that removing at's will grow the competitive scene which is wrong. There are games more complex and still manage to inspire the drive to compete, and they do it with more players then melee or brawl.
It's not our fault that the arguments coming from your side are not compelling.
First of all, there are several people here trying to make this point. Secondly, let me refer you to your original post:
This is contradictory. Whether intended or not, you stated ATs enable knowledgeable players to beat casuals. We can't read your mind, we're only left to assume what your point is in the poorly written arguments you present to us.
grizby2
Smash Lord
Mr.Showtime
Smash Ace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oynJcSnLSI4
That which has been seen can not be unseen. I shall forever place this image upon you whenever your foul names crosses these parts. ^_^
I don't think so. I think they'd feel differently if I picked Mario and just punch/kicked them to death for three stocks, rather than me picking ICs and CG'ing them to death 3 times.
I'm curious: If I'm trying to make a game that is accesible to the greatest amount of people possible (Smash Bros.), why would I include techniques that increase the chances of a player having an unenjoyable experience with my game (ATs)?
Do ATs improve the average player's experience? If not, why bother with them since average players are going to be the LARGE majority of players?
Its not very fun losing to a Pit camping with arrows but it works im casual play. I can list 500000 unfun ways that people lose that are unrelated to advanced techniques. Whether they lose to an infinite drillshine or a metaknight tornadoing all day, I fail to see how much more "fun" the no AT way of losing is . A chain grab isnt am AT either how fun is it for dk to be chain grabbed by ddd? Perhaps if sakurai wants casuals to have more fun he should avoid expoitative and broken moves in characters like tornado and chain grabs. Thats the kind of **** he should be focusing on so fasuals dont lose frustratingly to tourny players. You are fighting the wrong battle sir.
Croph
Hold Baroque Inside
Yeah, I think defining what makes a person "competitive" differs from people to people. By your example, I guess I'm considered competitive since I do tend to play in a more competitive sense. Not that I don't play with items off and on wacky stages, because sometimes I do. I just find both casual and competitive Smash fun, though I'm more leaning on the competitive side.
Like the examples you've given, there are certain environments that are competitive or casual in games. I find it more easier to define who's competitive or not in games like LoL since it's more direct/clear (online ranked matches, etc.), something that I wish Smash 4 will have.
Is up to external people to decide if you are competitive or not? Or is it only something for you to decide? I'm not sure... I don't have much knowledge in things like these haha. Though it's always fun reading different interpretations, even though I'm not sure I have one since I'm still wrapping my head around everything.
Sorry dont know how to delete a post on my phone.
BUt do yoy honestly honestpy find it more fun to get shine spiked 4 times withim 1 min vs being infinite drillshined to upsmash across fd? Can you explaim im detail why being shine soiked 4 times would be more fun. if melee didnt have ATs this would have just been the predomimamt way to wreck casual players. They still wouldnt have fun.
BUt do yoy honestly honestpy find it more fun to get shine spiked 4 times withim 1 min vs being infinite drillshined to upsmash across fd? Can you explaim im detail why being shine soiked 4 times would be more fun. if melee didnt have ATs this would have just been the predomimamt way to wreck casual players. They still wouldnt have fun.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
If what you were saying was true, then Smash Bros., as a series, wouldn't sell at all. This about it: the average casual match (not by statistics, but by the intended use of the game) is a 4 person battle royale. That means that for every single match played, there are three losers. By your logic, there should be 3 pissed off players that don't want to play anymore. But, that's not what actually happens.
It's because context is important. Losing is not, in and of itself, an unfun activity. Not even necessarily losing by a lot. I get wrecked in ranked League, but I still enjoy it. Most people who play Smash get wrecked in one way or another, even in casual matches (think of those matches where it's effectively a 3 v 1). But, it's still enjoyable. Think why that may be the case. It's because the players have a healthy respect for what happened during the match. They don't have a reason to think that the match was bull****.
For a good comparison to how casuals think of ATs, consider how most of us think of items. We hate them. They're bull****, and losing while they're on pisses us off... but that's because we don't respect them as legitimate. Even when you aren't steamrolled in an item match, losing item matches sucks because they aren't viewed as fair. Well, that's how casuals think of ATs. But, few casuals seriously get salty when they lose with items on, do they? Sure, casuals who post here might, but they're a part of the SWF culture where it's encouraged to **** on items. Casuals who lose item matches feel the same way as competitive players who lose because of a well-used wavedash: it's a legit part of the game worth respect.
THIS is what everyone is missing. WE respect ATs because we're competitive players, so we can't understand how ****ty it feels to lose a match because of them. We tell casual players to just suck it up and learn to love it or stop playing... but that's EXACTLY like if a casual tells us to suck it up about how random items are and just play with them. I mean, how did you guys feel about EVO '08 when SRK and the FGC told us we were being ******* for not liking them?
That's exactly how casuals feel about ATs. We are wanting to inflict that on them.
It's not that they're losing to ATs. It's that they don't want to respect ATs. And in some games, that's ok; Marvel is designed expressly to be as offensive as possible to a casual player. But, Smash is not that kind of series, and whether we like it or not, there are more of them than there are of us. And if we want our community to grow in a healthy way, we need them. They don't need us. Therefore, concessions are necessary, and in the grand scheme, giving up ATs is a much better choice for us than taking away item switch or lowering the hitstun or making the game even slower or more floaty.
Bad argument.
We're not complaining about items being in the game. I'm sure everyone can agree that items should stay. We're not trying to force casual players to play with them off and use advanced techniques, and they shouldn't try to force us to play with items on and without advanced techniques. If ATs were to make a return, casual players can play without them ala a good ranking system or, if all else fails, with other casuals on their friends list. Otherwise people who want ATs are forced to play a skill-less, shallow game that's not very fun for them after a while (unless we get another Project M, which could take a long time). In the end, the only people getting excluded are the competitive players.
RODO
Smash Ace
I've already made this point, but the pro-casual crowd is claiming that AT's are creating problems because casuals lose in not fun ways. A few things on that.
1. Losing sucks even if you don't get severely owned by pros. It's all about how you handle that loss, and someone trying to get rid of AT's because it's not fun for them just makes it seem like they are sore losers. People just need to change their mentality.
2. Competitive players are the minority. Acting like you will run into them every single time you play online is sort of ridiculous. These "competitive" people probably are more middle ground people who just decided to gain more knowledge on the game.
3. Even though casuals are the majority, they act like sakurai doesn't see them. If anything he is far less inclined to cater to the competitive crowd, but it's not enough until the competitive crowd is completely phased out.
You can argue all you want your reasoning for not wanting AT's, but if it has anything to do with losing or not being fun for you then I just can't take you seriously. Those people just seen like sore losers to me, and idk why anyone would stand for that.
1. Losing sucks even if you don't get severely owned by pros. It's all about how you handle that loss, and someone trying to get rid of AT's because it's not fun for them just makes it seem like they are sore losers. People just need to change their mentality.
2. Competitive players are the minority. Acting like you will run into them every single time you play online is sort of ridiculous. These "competitive" people probably are more middle ground people who just decided to gain more knowledge on the game.
3. Even though casuals are the majority, they act like sakurai doesn't see them. If anything he is far less inclined to cater to the competitive crowd, but it's not enough until the competitive crowd is completely phased out.
You can argue all you want your reasoning for not wanting AT's, but if it has anything to do with losing or not being fun for you then I just can't take you seriously. Those people just seen like sore losers to me, and idk why anyone would stand for that.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
No, it doesn't. If you think that losing sucks no matter what, you must be a miserable person to play with. Losing can be fun; play Agricola or Catan and you'll find out quickly that losing can be fun. If you are incapable of having fun even when you lose, then Smash isn't being designed for you, regardless of whether ATs are in the game or not.
That's not the point. We are an incredible minority, but the community and its culture, as a whole, also fairly visible and known. If it wasn't, the whole "Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination" meme wouldn't have survived as it did. Regardless of whether or not you're guaranteed to play a competitive player online, statistically speaking, if the online component has the stereotype or assumption that when you log on, you'll get steamrolled by those asshole SWF players who cheat and use gamebreaking stuff, which is what the assumption would be, then casual players will stay away from it. Yes, it may not be warranted that they think that, and yes, it may be a stereotype, but that's still something that needs to be taken into account when making the game. If the best way to prevent that is to take out ATs, then so be it; it's better for Sakurai than having to make lobbies or servers or some Riot-style karma system or something.
That's obviously not true. Sakurai himself has stated that he knows about us, respects our existence, and is taking us into consideration when making SSB4. He's just not sucking our *****. If you honestly think that the removal of ATs will inevitably lead to casuals beating down your door to eliminate your local tournament, you're a moron.
And you can argue for ATs all you want, but if you argue that it has 0 effect on casuals, I'm not going to take you seriously. It makes you seem like an entitled baby, whining whenever you don't get every single thing you want from someone who not only doesn't know you but owes you exactly nothing.
RODO
Smash Ace
It obviously does have an effect on casuals, but the problem I have is that they aren't saying "these AT's are breaking the game, so it's not fun." Instead they are saying "I'm losing to these people using AT's so it's not fun." THAT is not a valid reason, and even if you meant the former by saying the latter then it needs to be stated as such ("you" as a generalization, not you in particular). I'm not even saying that I want AT's in the game, but the reasons for which people want them out really just seems like whining to me. And since you called me an "entitled baby" go find a quote where I said I wanted AT's in the game. If you look back you'll actually see that I'm not even an advocate for some, including L-cancelling.
RODO
Smash Ace
Double Post
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
What?
Dude, the game will sell. It's everyone's favorite Nintendo characters beating each other up. People would have paid money for merely a picture of the concept, best believe.
I mean you're basically repeating what i'm saying. If you lose in league and you're ok with it, then thats your business, but thats you. It doesn't matter who you are, if you cop a tude because you lost in a game then that's your attitude, and your inability to chill is your problem. It doesn't matter how good you are or how marginal of a defeat it was, if you cry like a biggity-***** when you lose you just have a rotten attitude and you need to deal with it.
And why are you on the topic of AT;s again when you just said that it doesn't matter whether or not they are used? You're arguments are out of left field and don't really go anywhere, man.
And who gives a **** about what SRK thinks? Sticks and stones my boy. They're just a bunch of assholes who can't get over the fact that the game they deemed being casual and boring is going to take place at their tournament. Who gets the last laugh now?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Based on both of your responses, neither of you really read what I wrote. Which is exactly what I said was the reason I wasn't posting anymore. So, I'm going to go play Project X Zone now. Have fun.
...oh, and EPF? You certainly don't get it, because I have no idea what you're talking about; SRK is excited to see Melee and multiple high-level people in the FGC are supporting it. The point wasn't that what they said mattered, it was that we ***** about the FGC all the time, and in the "ATs vs. No ATs" argument, we're the functional equivalent of the FGC, so if they're assholes in that context, then we're assholes in this context. Next time you think what the FGC says has no bearing on us, do us all a favor and read up on some past posts on this forum about what we think about SRK. If it had no bearing, we wouldn't be so butthurt about them all the time.
...oh, and EPF? You certainly don't get it, because I have no idea what you're talking about; SRK is excited to see Melee and multiple high-level people in the FGC are supporting it. The point wasn't that what they said mattered, it was that we ***** about the FGC all the time, and in the "ATs vs. No ATs" argument, we're the functional equivalent of the FGC, so if they're assholes in that context, then we're assholes in this context. Next time you think what the FGC says has no bearing on us, do us all a favor and read up on some past posts on this forum about what we think about SRK. If it had no bearing, we wouldn't be so butthurt about them all the time.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Who's "We"? I don't really give a damn about what any of them say. The upper crust players are excluded from what I said, i'm talking about the majority, being the cesspool of crash dummies who bash people for no good reason. I play fighting games, I play smash, and bickering about respect between the two communities doesn't mean jack **** really since everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Maybe if more people thought like this we would be able to move on beyond the petty BS. I have a life outside these games so when someone judges my character based of off what is essentially a recreational hobby I assume they don't have their priorities right, ignore it and won't lose a wink of sleep.
Mr.Showtime
Smash Ace
I think I have come to a conclusion he is a troll. All he does is contradict himself and talk in some weird way that it is impossible to understand what he means.
I don't think its possible for anyone to correctly interpret what he is saying.
"That's not the point. We are an incredible minority, but the community and its culture, as a whole, also fairly visible and known. If it wasn't, the whole "Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination" meme wouldn't have survived as it did. Regardless of whether or not you're guaranteed to play a competitive player online, statistically speaking, if the online component has the stereotype or assumption that when you log on, you'll get steamrolled by those ******* SWF players who cheat and use gamebreaking stuff, which is what the assumption would be, then casual players will stay away from it. Yes, it may not be warranted that they think that, and yes, it may be a stereotype, but that's still something that needs to be taken into account when making the game. If the best way to prevent that is to take out ATs, then so be it; it's better for Sakurai than having to make lobbies or servers or some Riot-style karma system or something."
He criticizes people for not reading his posts and then he totally ignores what I said earlier. I'm not going to even try anymore. He is impossible.
You come up with a counter-argument and he comes back with "That's not the point!"....
I don't think its possible for anyone to correctly interpret what he is saying.
"That's not the point. We are an incredible minority, but the community and its culture, as a whole, also fairly visible and known. If it wasn't, the whole "Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination" meme wouldn't have survived as it did. Regardless of whether or not you're guaranteed to play a competitive player online, statistically speaking, if the online component has the stereotype or assumption that when you log on, you'll get steamrolled by those ******* SWF players who cheat and use gamebreaking stuff, which is what the assumption would be, then casual players will stay away from it. Yes, it may not be warranted that they think that, and yes, it may be a stereotype, but that's still something that needs to be taken into account when making the game. If the best way to prevent that is to take out ATs, then so be it; it's better for Sakurai than having to make lobbies or servers or some Riot-style karma system or something."
He criticizes people for not reading his posts and then he totally ignores what I said earlier. I'm not going to even try anymore. He is impossible.
You come up with a counter-argument and he comes back with "That's not the point!"....
RODO
Smash Ace
There wasn't really anything complex about what you said, I just didn't agree with it. And you misconstrued most of what I said, so it's kind of ironic lol. In the end it's just a video game though, so let's not get too far into it. We all enjoy this game so we should all get along.
peeup
Smash Lord
Firstly, anybody who gets pissed off for losing because of items deserves to have a cactus shoved up their asshole. It's a game. If you're playing with items, you're playing for fun.
Secondly, somebody probably won't lose because of items. Barring the Smash Ball or Dragoon or an unlucky Bob-Omb, the better player will still win. So if any self respecting person loses a match with items, unless it is a derpy OHKO item, they shouldn't say that they lost because of items. If they do, they deserve to have a cactus shoved up their asshole.
Thirdly, and most importantly, winning because of items is 100% not even closely related to winning because of ATs. If all of the pieces of Dragoon happen to fall into my lap, then that sucks. I got a free stock on my enemy because of pure luck. On the other hand, if I L-Cancel my aerials into a wavedashed U-Smash, I took that stock because I used a technique THAT MY OPPONENT HAD EQUAL ACCESS TO. If a game really is won because of items, there is nothing that the enemy could do. If a game really is won because of ATs, there is lots that the enemy could do. For example, the enemy could have used the exact same ATs that I used.
This leads into the main purpose of ATs. If I am using ATs, and my opponent is using ATs, then it is up to WHO USES THEM BETTER, MORE EFFICIENTLY, AND SMARTER. We both have EQUAL ACCESS TO ADVANCED TECHNIQUES. So, it is bull**** that you're comparing the casual's view of ATs to the competitive's view of items. Competitives dislike items because they add a possibility of a match being won by pure luck. Casuals dislike ATs because they add a possibility of a match being won BY THE FACT THAT THEIR OPPONENT HAS PUT MORE TIME INTO LEARNING AND PRACTICING THE MORE COMPLEX NUANCES OF THE GAME. WHAT A CRAZY ****ING CONCEPT.
TL;DR: if that was too many words, here's the basic underlying message. Items give a random advantage to a player. ATs give an advantage to the player who has worked harder to be better at the game. How on earth could that possibly be frowned upon?
Mr.Showtime
Smash Ace
Firstly, anybody who gets pissed off for losing because of items deserves to have a cactus shoved up their *******. It's a game. If you're playing with items, you're playing for fun.
Secondly, somebody probably won't lose because of items. Barring the Smash Ball or Dragoon or an unlucky Bob-Omb, the better player will still win. So if any self respecting person loses a match with items, unless it is a derpy OHKO item, they shouldn't say that they lost because of items. If they do, they deserve to have a cactus shoved up their *******.
Thirdly, and most importantly, winning because of items is 100% not even closely related to winning because of ATs. If all of the pieces of Dragoon happen to fall into my lap, then that sucks. I got a free stock on my enemy because of pure luck. On the other hand, if I L-Cancel my aerials into a wavedashed U-Smash, I took that stock because I used a technique THAT MY OPPONENT HAD EQUAL ACCESS TO. If a game really is won because of items, there is nothing that the enemy could do. If a game really is won because of ATs, there is lots that the enemy could do. For example, the enemy could have used the exact same ATs that I used.
This leads into the main purpose of ATs. If I am using ATs, and my opponent is using ATs, then it is up to WHO USES THEM BETTER, MORE EFFICIENTLY, AND SMARTER. We both have EQUAL ACCESS TO ADVANCED TECHNIQUES. So, it is bull**** that you're comparing the casual's view of ATs to the competitive's view of items. Competitives dislike items because they add a possibility of a match being won by pure luck. Casuals dislike ATs because they add a possibility of a match being won BY THE FACT THAT THEIR OPPONENT HAS PUT MORE TIME INTO LEARNING AND PRACTICING THE MORE COMPLEX NUANCES OF THE GAME. WHAT A CRAZY ****ING CONCEPT.
TL;DR: if that was too many words, here's the basic underlying message. Items give a random advantage to a player. ATs give an advantage to the player who has worked harder to be better at the game. How on earth could that possibly be frowned upon?
In before: "That's not my point!"
grizby2
Smash Lord
i think we should define AT's first before arguing about them :|
like uh... power/just shielding as apposed to just regular shielding.
the next smash should purposely point out AT's in how-to-play videos, or just flat out have an "Advanced-techniques" video.
like uh... power/just shielding as apposed to just regular shielding.
the next smash should purposely point out AT's in how-to-play videos, or just flat out have an "Advanced-techniques" video.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I agree. I also feel like he should expand on some aspects of playing smash on a higher level. They could be short segments like "Platform attacking"
It could show the potential dangers and benefits of being on a platform when an opponent is bellow you.
"Marth specializes in ranged attacks, his sword will cut through it! Prepare yourself"
"Block his attack at just the right time then..."
"Drop through the platform and counter attack with an aerial. Take the offensive and proceed with a combo attack!"
"Make sure when you block you block it right. If you fall off the edge you'll tumble through the air helplessly"
*Picture of character on ground while Marth is running at him*
"Uh...you might want to get up...NOW!"