How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I...I just realized.

The last few pages have been nothing but a circular argument. No, seriously.

ATs affect casual gamers. > No they don't > They do if they're playing online > Then separate online players between competitive/casual/whatever. > That's not in the spirit of smash.

Then the last point is ignored and it starts all over again with "ATs affect casual gamers."

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

OMG HAX.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No lie, this video taught me how to do the advanced stuff. Watching the hand movements really helps. Not to mentions its just ****ing hilarious.

 

[peeup]

I...I just realized.

The last few pages have been nothing but a circular argument. No, seriously.

ATs affect casual gamers. > No they don't > They do if they're playing online > Then separate online players between competitive/casual/whatever. > That's not in the spirit of smash.

Then the last point is ignored and it starts all over again with "ATs affect casual gamers."

I don't think the "separate online players between competitive/casual/whatever > That's not in the spirit of Smash" has been a relevant part of the conversation.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I don't think the "separate online players between competitive/casual/whatever > That's not in the spirit of Smash" has been a relevant part of the conversation.

Maybe not in this particular thread, but I do know it's shown up in a number of other threads. I personally have no issue with separating people by ranking or by room or whatever (although this doesn't solve any issues for the few jackass troll tourney players who would run into a casual room for the lulz)

 

[VA3TO]

Why is this in the smash 4 section again?

Because it's what going to be implemented or god forbid taken away in the next game.

 

[VA3TO]

I dunno, they aren't super easy to compare. (Though my one example was an insane glitch as more of a joke)

Lemme try to come up with something... close as I can.

Or maybe a better example in the Isaac Gun Loop. It essentially trapped people until a burst combo or possibly kill if you were talented enough. It's still in the game since we'll never get a patch.

It allows you to punish EXTREMELY well, and is a rather strong tactic that you would't know how to do unless you practiced and looked it up. When it became semi popular, people FREAKED out. Said it was OP, unfair, broken, ruined the game.... It was intense. But again, the game is dead and it'll never be taken out, and who knows, might not have been anyways (the Bold and/or Empty Cancel they kept in because they liked it, (wave dash kinda thing). But this tactic gets NASTY reactions online, people HATE it, RQ because of it, and unless the wiifi is REALLY good and can properly handle that, these ATs are going to ruin online play for a lot of people... Darn RQing.... =_=

It may seem silly, but someone who could run the ATs easily online might make people cry "glitch!" and report you if that's possible, or just consider you a cheater since they DONT know it exists and never care enough to go online and learn better so they quit. It can have nasty reprecussions even though not having them can suck too.

But I have to say again, Melee's AT's do not break the game in any way which is why it has lasted over 12 years. Can you see where I'm coming from? Melee's AT's add to the game where as the ones you have mentioned completely break the game.

 

[LiteralGrill]

But I have to say again, Melee's AT's do not break the game in any way which is why it has lasted over 12 years. Can you see where I'm coming from? Melee's AT's add to the game where as the ones you have mentioned completely break the game.

Ah but here's the thing: not everyone agreed. I ran all the tournaments for PSASBR, and when I called to ban it, there was a GIANT uproar. To the point where I had to go back and unban it again it was that bad. So SOME people thought it was a perfectly fine AT, while others didn't, then you ran into a REALLY nasty fight between both sides where no one has a right answer because both sides had honestly great arguments. So what do you do then? Alienate one side or the other, when both have valid strong points?

 

[peeup]

Ah but here's the thing: not everyone agreed. I ran all the tournaments for PSASBR, and when I called to ban it, there was a GIANT uproar. To the point where I had to go back and unban it again it was that bad. So SOME people thought it was a perfectly fine AT, while others didn't, then you ran into a REALLY nasty fight between both sides where no one has a right answer because both sides had honestly great arguments. So what do you do then? Alienate one side or the other, when both have valid strong points?

You're running at a moot point here, bud. This has nothing to do with casual players. What you're calling out is a potential rift within the competitive atmosphere as a result of ATs (something that clearly doesn't exist in Melee, as nobody in their right mind would ban wavedashing) as opposed to a potential rift between casual and competitive players.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You're running at a moot point here, bud. This has nothing to do with casual players. What you're calling out is a potential rift within the competitive atmosphere as a result of ATs (something that clearly doesn't exist in Melee, as nobody in their right mind would ban wavedashing) as opposed to a potential rift between casual and competitive players.

I'm glad you mentioned this, I forgot to mention one part of the story.

The part where on the forums and online for the game, the people using the loop were hated by casuals, while over microphones arguments would take place of people using the term scubs often. Forums flared up with people arguing on both sides, people on both ends of the spectrum downright hating each other. It cut the community significantly, I was trying to run campaigns to bring more players into tournaments, the top question was: "Is the Gun Loop Banned?" and when I said no, they went and told all their friends to avoid my site and hate on anything to do with it. The chance to convert casuals was gone, and I had been doing a stellar job of converting actually...

Then Sony said there would be no more work done on the game, everyone realized it'd be in forever, and people were pissed, but eventually it all died since the game had as well I guess.

 

[Barbs Jr]

I haven't read the entire thread yet but I've read most of it and it seems that the central argument of those opposing ATs is that it makes the skill gap between the aspiring smasher and the competitive too large that it discourages the casuals from learning the game. For the majority of cases, this is simply not true. Whether or not ATs are included in a game, there will always be a skill gap. For the smasher aspiring to get better, if there are no ATs to learn, there is no tangible way to get better. Their only option is to get beat over and over again by people with better reflexes and better spacing. Most of the time they don't even know why they are getting beat because they can't understand something as nuanced and subtle as spacing. They play game after game, practice for hours against cpus but still don't get better because CPUs don't behave like humans and thus you can't learn spacing against them.

Now, take a game like melee. The aspiring smasher gets owned, and sees a bunch of cool looking things that they don't know how to do. A quick google search about smash yields a list of a bunch of concrete ways they can improve, and in training mode no less where they don't have to suffer the discouragement of getting owned by their friends or random people online. They slowly see their skill go up, and by the time they've started implementing these techniques into their real game, they've already unknowingly mastered the meaty parts of the game, those subtle and nuanced parts that were truly the reason they were getting beat before but that they didn't yet understand - spacing, mind games, not getting flustered in matches.

Keep in mind I am talking about ASPIRING SMASHERs, not "casuals". Those who care about winning and losing. Those that want to get better. Casuals will keep doing what they did in smash 64 and melee and brawl- items on FFA, playing story mode, maybe even getting stomped by better players every now and then (which would happen regardless of ATs). But they are casuals and they don't want to get better at the game anyway, so who cares?

ATs are good for three reasons: They give more options to the competitive player, creating a deeper and more enjoyable game. They give a tangible stepping stone for which the aspiring smasher to get better without getting discouraged. And they in no way harm the casual smasher who doesn't care about being good or bad and only wants to have fun with his other casual smasher friends who will live the rest of their lives being blissfully ignorant of all the ATs.

Further, I've seen a lot of people asserting that knowing ATs will make you unbeatable against someone who didn't know them. In smash 64 at a local tournament I saw a Donkey Kong (bottom half of the tier list) win just from inpeccable grab spacing. No Short hops. No z cancelling. I've seen low techskill marths Fsmash their way to victory against foxes with decent techskill. In no way are ATs some crazy unfair advantage. In a perfect world, they provide more options and sometimes more speed. Thats it.

So that's fine. In general, ATs are good. Now, it's on Sakurai and his team to make balanced ATs - ones that make you good but not TOO good - and a balanced matchmaking system where casuals can play casuals, aspiring smashers can have access to players whose skill levels increase as their own skill levels increase, and top players can play top players.

Someone, PLEASE tell me how this doesn't satisfy everybody. I would really like to know.

 

[Priap0s]

I think alot of people in here are mixing up game depth with complexity. Especially L-cancel offers no depth, since it's just something you have to do always to perform at top level. I personally feel the same way about wave dashing. Some might argue that it adds depth but if it didn't exist other depth with the normal movement options would be found.

Other advanced techniques I like. Like DI for example: It requires skill, to either read what you will get hit by, or fast reactions after getting sent flying. Introducing complex AT that give no depth is just a pointless way to make the learning curve of the game even harder and thus hurting the competetive scenes growth.

Also I think it would be awesome if the tutorials (witch I hope contains different segments with videos. "Basic", "Advanced" and so on) in Smash4 would contain these techniques. So even casual players would know about them. The main thing now about certain things is that many people don't know about them and will just feel that it is unfair when they lose to people using them. If they are casual players they won't go online and check how to do it and then practise it.

tldl: If an AT makes for game depth it might be worht sacrifising making the game a bit more complex. If it adds close to none depth, don't bother with it. I enjoy watching pro's focusing on reading each other, strategy, reactions and other such things more than seeing who can push hard button combos the fastest.

 

[Barbs Jr]

I think alot of people in here are mixing up game depth with complexity. Especially L-cancel offers no depth, since it's just something you have to do always to perform at top level. I personally feel the same way about wave dashing. Some might argue that it adds depth but if it didn't exist other depth with the normal movement options would be found.

Other advanced techniques I like. Like DI for example: It requires skill, to either read what you will get hit by, or fast reactions after getting sent flying. Introducing complex AT that give no depth is just a pointless way to make the learning curve of the game even harder and thus hurting the competetive scenes growth.

Also I think it would be awesome if the tutorials (witch I hope contains different segments with videos. "Basic", "Advanced" and so on) in Smash4 would contain these techniques. So even casual players would know about them. The main thing now about certain things is that many people don't know about them and will just feel that it is unfair when they lose to people using them. If they are casual players they won't go online and check how to do it and then practise it.

tldl: If an AT makes for game depth it might be worht sacrifising making the game a bit more complex. If it adds close to none depth, don't bother with it. I enjoy watching pro's focusing on reading each, strategy, reactions and other and such things more than seeing who can push hard button combos the fastest.

I agree with this except for wavedashing. It fits criteria for adding more depth than complexity. There are times when it's better to walk, better to dash, better to pivot for an attack. That = more options, more reading = more depth

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

I'm sorry but you should have no opinion on Smash what so ever.

Continue to play Brawl because it offers all of what you just said. Leave Smash 4 for the new players that want a great game.

Just because you are too lazy to learn doesn't mean the game should be dampened altogether. That thought process disgusts me.

I am entitled to have an opinion just as much as you do.

Continue to play brawl? I could say “continue to play melee” to you.

Lazy to learn? No, I don't want to learn to press L every time I land because it's seems stupid for me.

You see, your statements are misconstrued, as when you say people who are using "AT's" or "Players who use AT's on me", it just sounds like you are really saying "People who are better than me".

I am definitely saying nothing like that. I don't mind pros beating me, in fact I think it is pretty motivating. I just don't like Ats and I am trying to question some of their necessity here, mmhkay? And I think you misunderstood my post? I don't own brawl (but I have played it) and haven't played it online. My post probably was badly constructed or you misread it if you thought so.

I was talking about upcoming smash4 online play and gave an example of a situation if/when I am going to play it online. And you say Ats don't affect my game yet I was just trying to explain in my message how they could affect me in smash4. And I was talking mostly about l-cancel and wavedash, they seem to be main topic of this thread.

From the way your argument sounds it seems as if you weren't successful in learning how to play better and/or continually lost without trying to evaluate your mistakes.

Hmmm, noo.

If i'm wrong in my notion, tell me why you are here then?”

For Smash 4.

You're enjoyment of a game with ATs before you even knew about them is a testament to everything that I'm trying to argue. You're doing my job for me.

Maybe I consider joining competitive scene for smash 4, at least by then these ATs affect me. And I'm certain it is not universal opinion of whole competitive smash community some of the ATs are needed. What about those who play brawl competitvely and enjoy less technical competition?

Anyway, notice that this is my opinion here. Like some people like oranges, some apples, some both, right?


Edit: Different online "rooms" for competitive and casuals sounds like a good solution.

 

[peeup]

I'm glad you mentioned this, I forgot to mention one part of the story.

The part where on the forums and online for the game, the people using the loop were hated by casuals, while over microphones arguments would take place of people using the term scubs often. Forums flared up with people arguing on both sides, people on both ends of the spectrum downright hating each other. It cut the community significantly, I was trying to run campaigns to bring more players into tournaments, the top question was: "Is the Gun Loop Banned?" and when I said no, they went and told all their friends to avoid my site and hate on anything to do with it. The chance to convert casuals was gone, and I had been doing a stellar job of converting actually...

Then Sony said there would be no more work done on the game, everyone realized it'd be in forever, and people were pissed, but eventually it all died since the game had as well I guess.

The problem here is that you're generalizing what an AT is to far too great an extent.

Consider a moment that there existed a balanced fighting game. Now consider that somebody found out about some exploit in which if you press a simple button combination, you automatically delivered a fatal blow to your opponent. In Smash terms, let's associate this with MK's infinite cape glitch. With a very simple button input, you can stall for however long you want without the enemy having any way whatsoever to stop you. This kind of exploit is to be banned.


Consider a moment a different balanced fighting game. Now, consider that somebody found out about some exploit in which if you press a simple button combination, your character is granted a new type of movement. Although very useful, other standard types of movement are still very much viable and useful. In Smash terms, let's associate this with wavedashing. With a very simple button input, you can add some variety and depth to your gameplay in a way that is not limiting, broken, or necessary. This kind of exploit to be encouraged.

In case I'm not being clear, you can't be completely black and white about exploits. Yes, some break the game. But just because one example (Isaac's Gun Loop) does so, it doesn't mean that every single other exploit breaks the game as well. That's like saying that because one french fry tasted bad, you should throw out the entire box. (I have better similes but they're all risqué and I don't wanna be banned haha)

Lazy to learn? No, I don't want to learn to press L every time I land because it's seems stupid for me.

Maybe some soccer players think that it seems stupid to learn to kick with both feet. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't have to learn in order to play with the big boys.

 

[otter]

Maybe I consider joining competitive scene for smash 4, at least by then these ATs affect me. And I'm certain it is not universal opinion of whole competitive smash community some of the ATs are needed. What about those who play brawl competitvely and enjoy less technical competition?

In this case, you qualify as a pseudo competitor.

"Casual", more like "pseudo-competitor".


Casuals couldn't care less about advanced techniques; advanced techniques do not effect them. The problem lies within the pseudo-competitors who want watered-down game play due to them being incapable of playing games that actually take skill and dedication to play efficiently. Casuals play random FFA's with their other casual friends. Pseudo-competitors want to play with highly-skilled players without having large skill discrepancies that do not make them feel bad about themselves. Hence, why they always vehemently support lowering skill-gaps within game play. It's just a simple, emotional and egotistical problem newer generations of gamers suffer from. They watch or look at videos of professional gamers and want to be them, they just want to take the easy road to achieve similar results.

 

[Barbs Jr]

I am entitled to have an opinion just as much as you do.

Continue to play brawl? I could say “continue to play melee” to you.

Lazy to learn? No, I don't want to learn to press L every time I land because it's seems stupid for me.



I am definitely saying nothing like that. I don't mind pros beating me, in fact I think it is pretty motivating. I just don't like Ats and I am trying to question some of their necessity here, mmhkay? And I think you misunderstood my post? I don't own brawl (but I have played it) and haven't played it online. My post probably was badly constructed or you misread it if you thought so.

I was talking about upcoming smash4 online play and gave an example of a situation if/when I am going to play it online. And you say Ats don't affect my game yet I was just trying to explain in my message how they could affect me in smash4. And I was talking mostly about l-cancel and wavedash, they seem to be main topic of this thread.



Hmmm, noo.



For Smash 4.



Maybe I consider joining competitive scene for smash 4, at least by then these ATs affect me. And I'm certain it is not universal opinion of whole competitive smash community some of the ATs are needed. What about those who play brawl competitvely and enjoy less technical competition?

Anyway, notice that this is my opinion here. Like some people like oranges, some apples, some both, right?

You sound like the kind of person who expects everything to be handed to you. Sometimes you just have to put in the work to be able to have options available to you. That's life.

And we're not just talking about L-cancelling and wave dashing. I honestly think that L cancelling is bad game design, (even though I happen to like the mechanic anyway). ATs go way deeper than that and the fact you don't know about them just proves that you're either lazy or you don't care. But since you've been posting so much I'm forced to believe the latter.

Seriously go to a blank stage using name entry glitch and practice for an hour a day for a week and you will be able to semi consistently perform WDing and L cancelling. Dont have the drive to do that? Practice it in between stocks against friends. If you can't do that then why do you even deserve an opinion about whether or not there should be advanced techniques? We have experienced the game with and without ATs and I'm not the only one to say that I enjoy the game way more with ATs. You simply don't have as much anecdotal data as we do.

 

[RODO]

Actually guys you know what? I'm a 23 year old man who has been playing since smash 64. It's not fair that I have more experience than people who have started with Brawl or are going to start with 4. They should ban me or make me younger to make it fair for everyone

 

[peeup]

Actually guys you know what? I'm a 23 year old man who has been playing since smash 64. It's not fair that I have more experience than people who have started with Brawl or are going to start with 4. They should ban me or make me younger to make it fair for everyone

This guy has his head on straight.

 

[otter]

We have experienced the game with and without ATs and I'm not the only one to say that I enjoy the game way more with ATs. You simply don't have as much anecdotal data as we do.

Agreed. Nearly anyone with all the necessary data to make this decision will be on the same side.

 

[Priap0s]

Actually guys you know what? I'm a 23 year old man who has been playing since smash 64. It's not fair that I have more experience than people who have started with Brawl or are going to start with 4. They should ban me or make me younger to make it fair for everyone

Completly missing peoples points or just being childish. I don't know. I don't like it either way.

 

[Priap0s]

We have experienced the game with and without ATs and I'm not the only one to say that I enjoy the game way more with ATs. You simply don't have as much anecdotal data as we do.

This is absolutely not the main reason why I prefer melee over brawl. Is that the general opinion of melee players? That it's just the AT that makes the difference. Oh boy, I wouldn't like brawl more or prefer it over melee for a second even if it copied all AT's from melee. Edit: oh, I think I miss read. You ment melee without using AT's vs melee while using AT's? I hate this thread thou, we can't just discuss "is AT's good or bad?". Some AT's give good depth without being to complex and are very good. Some give no depth and just add a steeper learning curve, they are bad. Make on thread for every AT and we could talk for real instead.

AT's that exist should add much more game depth than they give the game complexity or they are bad for a game design. So this topic is hard to discuss, since some AT's should be in and some should not. Also a very important point is that the AT's will be visible and accesible for everyone. Tutorials in the next smash should contain stuff like DI and such. People shouldn't have to go online to find this out. It's not that they are hard to execute, many just don't know about them. If you see them and use them from the begining it will be nature.

So here's to hoping Smash4 will ahve better tutorials and videos in the game. Like on basic category, one advanced and so on. This would make AT's that give game depth in exchange for some complexity even more worth it.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

And we're not just talking about L-cancelling and wave dashing. I honestly think that L cancelling is bad game design, (even though I happen to like the mechanic anyway). ATs go way deeper than that and the fact you don't know about them just proves that you're either lazy or you don't care. But since you've been posting so much I'm forced to believe the latter.

Yes, you have a point. I probably need to give wavedashing more time before judging it. You said that in your opinion l-cancel is bad game design but you like it anyway. That's why I think that it is good to question things sometimes and generate more discussion, because sometime people can really like some feature but it might not the best solution from the game's aspect. I don't know what is for the better, to have or not to have l-cancel, that's for the devs to solve. People want a deep game, though some people say there might be better ways to create depth too.

And it is good that we can agree with something.

 

[RODO]

Completly missing peoples points or just being childish. I don't know. I don't like it either way.

Maybe it just makes too much sense. Casuals are trying to be more competitive by making the game less competitive. Seems like hypocrisy to me. Also, people can't handle being beat, and want Sakurai to cater to the quitters and whiners. That doesn't seem right to me either. If these people are under the age of 13 then I can understand, but I can't imagine what's so hard to grasp about the game. It was already made easily accessible while at the same time having hidden depth, which made it appealing to everyone.

And another thing, it's easy to just play with friends or friend others online who are your skill level. It's not like competitive players are the majority of people playing smash, far from it actually.

 

[Priap0s]

Maybe it just makes too much sense. Casuals are trying to be more competitive by making the game less competitive. Seems like hypocrisy to me. Also, people can't handle being beat, and want Sakurai to cater to the quitters and whiners. That doesn't seem right to me either. If these people are under the age of 13 then I can understand, but I can't imagine what's so hard to grasp about the game. It was already made easily accessible while at the same time having hidden depth, which made it appealing to everyone.

And another thing, it's easy to just play with friends or friend others online who are your skill level. It's not like competitive players are the majority of people playing smash, far from it actually.

So by removing, for example, L-cancel. How does this make the game less competetive? As I've said before, this thread is to vague to be discussed seriously. Since some AT's are good and give depth while some just make the game more complex. If we want to discuss this we should have one thread for every AT. You can also read my post under the one you quoted and you'll see more what I mean and how I feel about it.

No one in here is speaking for casuals, that they should be able to beat a competetive and experiensed player. If you think that's the case, then you have missed the majority of points made in here by people. What you say about people whining and quiters... I don't know, haven't seen anyone whine about that or say that they should be able to play vs a pro without getting smacked. A brawl-pro smacks any regular player just as hard as a melee pro smacks someone. AT's or not.

But yeah, as said. We can't just clump up every AT's and discuss if they are bad or good for the game. Some might be, some are not.

 

[RODO]

So by removing, for example, L-cancel. How does this make the game less competetive? As I've said before, this thread is to vague to be discussed seriously. Since some AT's are good and give depth while some just make the game more complex. If we want to discuss this we should have one thread for every AT. You can also read my post under the one you quoted and you'll see more what I mean and how I feel about it.

No one in here is speaking for casuals, that they should be able to beat a competetive and experiensed player. If you think that's the case, then you have missed the majority of points made in here by people. What you say about people whining and quiters... I don't know, haven't seen anyone whine about that or say that they should be able to play vs a pro without getting smacked. A brawl-pro smacks any regular player just as hard as a melee pro smacks someone. AT's or not.

But yeah, as said. We can't just clump up every AT's and discuss if they are bad or good for the game. Some might be, some are not.

There were a few people earlier on who said that the game wasn't enjoyable because they keep losing to people better than them, and because of that they wanted AT's out of the game because it was "ruining the experience." I personally think L-cancelling is a dumb tech, and if you have a problem with the techs themselves then that's fine and good. It's one thing to critisize the AT's because you think they don't belong in the game, but saying that they shouldn't be in just because you are losing to people who use these techs just seems like a cop-out. I wasn't calling you out at all, I've read your posts and you and I are indeed arguing different things. I'm addressing the few people who were in this thread early on that have seemed to step out of the conversation. No offense to any of those people, I just didn't think their excuse was valid.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Damn, I been dodging this thread for a while. Why have I again? I enjoy heated discussions!

I feel that RODO hit the nail on the head.

First off from the casual side - Brawl's online system is currently suited for casual play. Items on, two minute matches, and a free for all set up. If this system is implemented online that is fine for me.

If you don't like this setup, then why? Is it because you are not playing against people of your skill level? If so, why do you dislike the idea of a match making system. You too could also play with your friends list...so that argument is kind of stale. The argument that you need to lose a couple of matches to be put into a suitable bracket is a good counter argument, but how else would you do this? You guys are coming up with horrible games design choices to only benefit yourselves. I'm not saying that some competitive players are coming up with some bad arguements too.

You guys want to play casually and then want to play competitive. Then belive it isnt fair that someone is able to beat another due to having more knowledge of the game through ATs. This is really sounding hypocritical and selfish.

As a competitive player I don't mind playing with a friends list, so why can't you? As I said a thousand times in other discussions and which people still do not have a counter argument to - you can't force people to play a game a certain way. There is going to be a competitive and casual scene regardless of the final outcome. A game that was once competitive will be continued being played competitively.

 

[El Duderino]

First off from the casual side - Brawl's online system is currently suited for casual play. Items on, two minute matches, and a free for all set up. If this system is implemented online that is fine for me.

If you don't like this setup, then why?

Because it's restrictive, lacks choice/variety, and is a contrived implementation of online Smash. I've had a fuller experience playing random people online with Smash64 through Kaillera, which is really sad. There's no reason I should have to wait for key hours when my friends are online to play with adequate options. It defeats half the purpose of online play.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I see it a different way. I see it as "I can destroy and 4 stock casual players whether advanced techniques are there or they aren't, so what's the gain in removing them?" No seriously, if I play a casual in melee I 4 stock him, and I 3 stock him in Brawl. Advanced techniques DO NOT AFFECT CASUALS BECAUSE THEY SUCK WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. And to reinforce the idea, a casual is someone who would never entertain the idea of visiting smashboards, so none of you are casuals. You guys can all do the same, I am not special here.

People are using advanced techniques as a cover for casual gamers when in reality it's their lack of practice and knowledge of the game that is going to make them lose to serious gamers. It's like saying Lebron James will beat me in basketball because he has better shoes. You could force him and I to wear the same shoes, but in the end, I don't know how to dunk and I don't know basketball plays, I can't do any post moves, I don't have any footwork, i have a terrible release, no arc on my shot, and i definitely don't have much range on my 3 pointer. Because I don't practice these things the way he does. No matter how hard you tried to even the playing field, he is always going to destroy me because he is just plain and simply much better.

Honestly, I can't wavedash or l cancel worth anything with fox in melee, but because casual opponents don't know how to avoid a simple shine spike, i get a 1 minute 4 stock. It has nothing to do with advanced techniques. Literally my buttons presses are "hold left to fall off stage" then "down b". That's all it technically takes to 4 stock casuals in melee without any advanced techniques. This is the same as playing Lebron and he doesn't even use his physical gifts, he just takes 3 pointers and swishes them over me.

The skill and knowledge gap between hardcore competitive gamers and casual players is so large, that no matter what its going to be a slaughter. It's the skill and knowledge gap, and has nothing to do with advanced techniques.

 

[otter]

So by removing, for example, L-cancel. How does this make the game less competetive?

Just look at Brawl. The removal of L canceling makes most approaches unsafe and disrupts the very flow of the match. "Oh, you managed to avoid your opponents projectiles and ranged attacks and get in perfect range for a aerial attack while forcing your opponent to shield rather than counter attacking. Good job, you lose."

Now, you could of course just have far less landing lag on attacks by default. Personally, I prefer to have something to train outside of matches. I like to see my characters speed and efficiency rise gradually by my own hand. Some people don't, and want to get right to the decision making part of the game. Neither of these are wrong, but are clearly both better options than just having terrible jumping attacks without any circumvention.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

There were a few people earlier on who said that the game wasn't enjoyable because they keep losing to people better than them.

I presume you're talking about me here. You're putting words in my mouth and I already said I didn't mean anything like that. I think you misunderstood me, I was arguing how the ATs could affect me or any other casual online. But let's not get back into that topic anymore, ok?

 

[peeup]

I presume you're talking about me here. You're putting words in my mouth

"I'm going to put words in your mouth and assume you're talking about me."

*moments later*

"How dare you put words in my mouth!?"

But anyway, read Edreeses' post, buddy. You aren't a casual. Casuals have no reason to go online to check out a forum dedicated to the advancement of the metagame of Smash. Casuals have no idea what the **** the metagame is because they only play with their friends. Not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, but its a ****ing fact so say you're a casual.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

Your reply doesn't make any sense to me other than I'm not a casual. Ok then.

 

[peeup]

Your reply doesn't make any sense to me other than I'm not a casual. Ok then.

Well you got the important part. The first part was a snide remark about how you started your post by putting words in someone else's mouth, then proceeded to chastise them for putting words in your mouth.

But yeah, you got the important part.

 

[Barbs Jr]

Funny how all the vehemently anti AT people here have mysteriously disappeared from this thread.

 

[SmashBro99]

Sakurai is making this game so it's fun and it will sell. Sure he realizes some people play smash competitively but he's not gonna include all these "advanced techniques" on purpose, sure there may be some that are found when it comes out but he wants everyone to enjoy this game. The little kids who get to play after their homework is done before bedtime, the casuals who just play with friends and the competitive folks.

Silly competitive people thinking they are the only ones Sakurai is trying to satisfy when making a smash game LOL

I hope this game is slower and more floaty than Brawl, lets see people make a crappy melee version of this too

And anyone who is suggesting to seperate "casual" and "competitive" are...well not right in the head and don't understand that's exactly what they DON'T want.

 

[otter]

Silly competitive people thinking they are the only ones Sakurai is trying to satisfy when making a smash game LOL

I am not sure if you didn't read anything in this thread, or you are just unable to comprehend, but thanks for somehow making your camp look worse.

 

[otter]

double post

 

[SmashBro99]

I am not sure if you didn't read anything in this thread, or you are just unable to comprehend, but thanks for somehow making your camp look worse.

All I had to do was read the first page to see all the derps, but thanks for a useless reply