How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[peeup]

I think something important to recognize is that 100% of the people who play Smash competitively started out playing it casually. And these people all learned the intricacies of advanced play, starting from square 1.

 

[Big-Cat]

tl;dr: Having an in depth How To Play video is inferior to simply having the in depth information on an online, fan created source. That way the casuals can be casual, and the players that want to be competitive can be competitive.

That doesn't change the situation in the slightest. If anything, teaching players how this stuff works and why it's important needs to be emphasized instead of given minimal control tutorials.

 

[peeup]

That doesn't change the situation in the slightest. If anything, teaching players how this stuff works and why it's important needs to be emphasized instead of given minimal control tutorials.

I think there needs to be a very delicate balance. Smash was never meant to have all the cool things that make it an awesome competitive game, and if all that stuff is forced down the throat of casual players, it becomes far less appealing.

 

[BentoBox]

I never even knew there was such thing as L-cancelling or wavedashing until recently. And they make me sad. Now I know I couldn't have had a change against some competitive player because I didn't know some kind of weird technique. Things like those are terrible for games, they divide casual gamers and competitive gamers from each other..

That is such a cop-out. You would have been demolished regardless of whether you had a firm grasp on these techniques or not. You are only as good as the people you play with. And I must once again reiterate that there is so much more to Melee's technical depth beyond Wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

 

[Dash000]

I have 300+ hours of playing Melee, mostly with my friends and I am a casual player. I know I was pretty good at it (not anymore however), loved the game really much (still do), completed it almost 100% (only few all-star character trophies missing). Even though I am casual player, I still wanted to be good at the game and get better (I practiced a lot). I played VS. mode with items always, they add the element of luck but Super Smash Bros Melee is one of the few multiplayer games where I don't mind about luck and that really amazes me.

Most items are not difficult to counter if you know what to do, there are only few situations where the doom is inevitable. But even with items, it was almost always the one who played better won the game.

I never even knew there was such thing as L-cancelling or wavedashing until recently. And they make me sad. Now I know I couldn't have had a change against some competitive player because I didn't know some kind of weird technique. Things like those are terrible for games, they divide casual gamers and competitive gamers from each other. Especially now when playing online is possible. They are like cheats, because I dare to say 80% of players don't even know they exist. If they are going to add L-cancelling, I hope they at least tell it in the tutorial and make it look less exploity. But I still hope they won't.

And I fail to see what these secrets add to the game, other than glitchy looking movement? Why does it seem like these competitive players want to have these secrets that only they know about? Do they just want to have unfair advantage against those who have never even heard about these things? Do they think that if you have to press few buttons more, the game will have more depth, not complexity? The game already has tons of depth, even without those weird features. 25 characters, many maps, many game modes, tons of items, etc etc. But maybe when you stip the game from everything you consider even slightly lucky, the game will turn shallow?

But I do agree about physics and I don't see why it would affect casual players to have great physics like in melee.

Agreed! People keep saying that L-cancelling and wavedashing don't hurt casuals, but guess what, they do! Seriously, no casual is going to find out about them without looking online or something (which casuals don't usually do) but they still play online! And honestly, it sucks to go online and some person, that is the same skill level as you in normal fighting without L-cancelling and wavedashing, kicks your butt just because they have heard about a way to do something that has no drawbacks at all, and is useful all the time (L-cancelling)! Then the average casual, after getting owned a few times by that sort of thing, will just quit, and who knows, if not for that they may have enjoyed the game more, and eventually become a competitive player.

 

[Dash000]

That is such a cop-out. You would have demolished regardless of whether you had a firm grasp on these techniques or not. You are only as good as the people you play with. And I must once again reiterate that there is so much more to Melee's technical depth beyond Wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

So... why not remove those, and still have Melee's technical depth? Then people will see that they lost in a fair way, and because they went against someone better than them, not because they had never heard of some move that is always useful, and there is no reason not to do it.

P.S. Sorry for the double post

 

[peeup]

Agreed! People keep saying that L-cancelling and wavedashing don't hurt casuals, but guess what, they do! Seriously, no casual is going to find out about them without looking online or something (which casuals don't usually do) but they still play online! And honestly, it sucks to go online and some person, that is the same skill level as you in normal fighting without L-cancelling and wavedashing, kicks your butt just because they have heard about a way to do something that has no drawbacks at all, and is useful all the time (L-cancelling)! Then the average casual, after getting owned a few times by that sort of thing, will just quit, and who knows, if not for that they may have enjoyed the game more, and eventually become a competitive player.

There's something that I don't get about this argument. What situation are you talking about, going to fight someone online and getting stomped because you don't know about L-Cancelling? Firstly, there is no Smash game that has online play AND L-Cancelling, aside from PM. And if you're playing PM, clearly you have enough knowledge of the internet to know the existence of L-Cancelling.

If you're playing against competitive players who understand ATs, there is no situation in which you wouldn't also be exposed to the exact same bank of information that your opponent is exposed to. Therefore, there is no reason that you should not know about and understand the usage of ATs.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

That is such a cop-out. You would have demolished regardless of whether you had a firm grasp on these techniques or not. You are only as good as the people you play with. And I must once again reiterate that there is so much more to Melee's technical depth beyond Wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

You or I can't really know that, sadly. I didn't just practice with my friends, I played a lot in "offline" too. I did target practices, all the event matches, like the one where you have to kill level 9 mewtwo, ganondorf and giga bowser on final destination 3 vs 1. Then I practiced against 3 level 9 Links with Link until I won, training mode, etc, etc. What I've seen in other games, competitive players practice a lot outside of normal game modes.

So when I was at my best, I really think I could have won some competitive players (probably not if they used L-cancelling or other weird mechanics). Now after few years without playing I can't even beat one level 9 AI, it used to be piece of cake. So no, I don't believe you.

edit: even if I lost, I would've considered it fair and educating match if the opponent didn't use ATs. If he used those, it would've been just frustrating.

 

[Vkrm]

The AT's don't hurt casuals. Casuals are playing link dittos on japes with motion sensors on high. If you lose to somebody and get mad, you no longer qualify as just a casual player. Obviously you were chasing the win, and therefor not playing casually. What your saying is silly, they should simplify the game for the audience that is smallest and most likely to abandon the game in a matter of months. Quite frankly I find it pathetic when people lose to players who wanted to win more and interpret that as a flaw in the games design.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

ATs should not be removed just to cater those who play this game for fun or only when friends are around. Someone mentioned that he only found out about l-cancel and wavedash thing and felt like he would never have a chance to win against a competitive player. Let me ask you this though, did you not have fun playing before you came to realize the existence of ATs? I think from your statement, you enjoyed quite a lot. ATs' hidden status from non-competitive players did not affect your play at all I would think. Same goes for the macro scale I would think. Also, non-competitive players playing several hundreds of hours should not equate to competitive players playing same amount of hours. Main reason for that would be competitive players actually play the game and take their times to discover and learn things that might give them an edge against others. Of course, non-competitive players would want that extra thing that they want to know so tbat they could edge their friends out. If this is the case, probaby s/he should study the game carefully, not just playing more and search for more info than given officially to get that extra stuffs that may help in winning. The point is, competitive players dedicate their time to actually learn and discover stuffs while most non-competitive players do not and only play for fun. And I did not get affected by ATs when I jusf got into Smash. It was only when I wanted to win against my roommates (I was pretty terrible, I admit) that I began to search for those extra things and started learning more things other than basics. By the way, let's admit the fact that even the lowest ranked competitive players can destroy me or you handedly. That is good for them, because they took time to get there. No one should be beating other competitors without doing the work. My 2 cents. So, conclusion or tldr: no it should not be removed and does not and should not affect "casuals".

 

[Vkrm]

So... why not remove those, and still have Melee's technical depth? Then people will see that they lost in a fair way, and because they went against someone better than them, not because they had never heard of some move that is always useful, and there is no reason not to do it.

P.S. Sorry for the double post

Lowering the barrier of entry would giving the casuals something that they didn't ask for. Everyone who is ever going to to establish themselves in the competitive scene will have the drive to overcome the the physical challenges. You know what you should do? Try learning the AT's so you can see personally how they positively affect the game. And then try to play someone who's got time with the game and ask them to beat you without AT's.

 

[BentoBox]

Agreed! People keep saying that L-cancelling and wavedashing don't hurt casuals, but guess what, they do! Seriously, no casual is going to find out about them without looking online or something (which casuals don't usually do) but they still play online! And honestly, it sucks to go online and some person, that is the same skill level as you in normal fighting without L-cancelling and wavedashing, kicks your butt just because they have heard about a way to do something that has no drawbacks at all, and is useful all the time (L-cancelling)! Then the average casual, after getting owned a few times by that sort of thing, will just quit, and who knows, if not for that they may have enjoyed the game more, and eventually become a competitive player.

What are you even talking about here? You couldn't play Melee online. Do people quit playing Brawl because they keep getting stomped by better players online? And if not, what excuse do they fall back on? Competition naturally breeds better players; if you're not used to playing within an environment that fosters competition, you are inevitably going to be behind in terms of game knowledge comparatively. Blaming ATs for being a poorer player is just a terrible excuse when you aren't even interested in playing the game competitively in the first place.

So... why not remove those, and still have Melee's technical depth? Then people will see that they lost in a fair way, and because they went against someone better than them, not because they had never heard of some move that is always useful, and there is no reason not to do it.

P.S. Sorry for the double post

I am not for the re-inclusion of WD and LC in Smash4. You somehow seem to think that these two tactics make you a better player by default when there are a plethora of other options and mechanics whose surface you'll barely have scratched because you've been isolated away from the competitive scene/smashboards. What I am saying is that even if WD and LC weren't in melee, you still would've gotten stomped by better players partly because Melee's technical depth spans far beyond these two isolated techniques.

You or I can't really know that, sadly. I didn't just practice with my friends, I played a lot in "offline" too. I did target practices, all the event matches, like the one where you have to kill level 9 mewtwo, ganondorf and giga bowser on final destination 3 vs 1. Then I practiced against 3 level 9 Links with Link until I won, training mode, etc, etc. What I've seen in other games, competitive players practice a lot outside of normal game modes.

So when I was at my best, I really think I could have won some competitive players (probably not if they used L-cancelling or other weird mechanics). Now after few years without playing I can't even beat one level 9 AI, it used to be piece of cake. So no, I don't believe you.

edit: even if I lost, I would've considered it fair and educating match if the opponent didn't use ATs. If he used those, it would've been just frustrating.

Are you serious right now?

Go play Brawl and tell me how completing target practice, Subspace Emissary and beating lvl9s prepare you in your quest to win a tournament.

And what other games are you talking about? Did Daigo become a legend by perfecting his combos in Barrel Bust and Car Smash? Certainly practicing against other players of his caliber had nothing to do with it...

You should spend more time browsing these boards~

 

[UNKN{OWN}iXi]

Of course it affects casual players, especially going forward. Remember: Melee wasn't much of a problem because the odds of playing someone who knew how to, for instance, wavedash were incredibly low if you weren't physically present at a tournament.

But, Brawl? Brawl had online play. Of course, the netcode wasn't great, but we had no way of knowing that, and the competitive community had every intention of utilizing it. In addition, Sakurai assumed we would be using online play, specifically "With Anyone". Which meant, all of the sudden, it was actually relatively easy for a casual to be unwittingly matched up with someone who was not only simply more skilled, but had access to knowledge and moves that the average player simply would not have access to.

Now, with SSB4, Sakurai claims he wants to clean up the netcode and make the online experience better. Which means, he wants more of us, in some sense, to use online play. So, why on god's green Earth would we expect him to WANT advanced techs in the game? Why on Earth would he want to give us win buttons over casual players? If we win because we're more skilled, that's one thing, but if we steamroll everyone online because we know how to exploit the physics engine and they all don't? I'm sorry, but that's bull****; you shouldn't be required to have a SWF account to have fun online.

So, yeah, in this generation, ATs totally affect casual players.

This is simply not the case since the beginning of human history. We learn from each other, plain and simple.

If I get wrecked by someone using all these AT's, what am I going to do? ***** and moan about it as the next guy wrecks me or go online and find out how to Z/L cancel? Obvious answer.


A game like Smash builds friendships and communities around this mentality. Stop limiting players because of your own personal agenda when in reality AT's just add way more depth to the game.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

By the way, even in non-competitive viewpoint, I don't think many would like to see their friends (who just started playing this one game with you which you have put 100+ hours in) start beating them very frequently without even knowing what to do. I don't think this is more fair than having ATs in the game where "select few" choose to learn and start destroying "casuals" online or so. Just another one of my inputs....
EDIT: I am not saying that competitive players are going to "destroy" non-competitive players with ATs, because chances are, even without using one of "ATs" they will still beat non-competitive players due to difference in the usage of their time invested in the game as I said before. Let those who put their efforts in the game to improve themselves to leap and harvest. You leap what you sow.....

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

Are you serious right now?

Go play Brawl and tell me how completing target practice, Subspace Emissary and beating lvl9s prepare you in your quest to win a tournament.

And what other games are you talking about? Did Daigo become a legend by perfecting his combos in Barrel Bust and Car Smash? Certainly practicing against other players of his caliber had nothing to do with it...

You should spend more time browsing these boards~

I'm sure competitive players do a lot of things in training mode.

And my friends doesn't live in my house, what am I supposed to play if not against bots, challenges, etc.? You think I was thinking about winning a tournament when I played all those event matches, adventures, all-stars, etc? I was playing to challenge myself. You think that it is enough to only play against players of your caliber, nothing more? Do you think that I didn't learn anything when 3 level 9 AIs are constantly punishing me?

And do you think that my friends that have played with me never got better at all, thus I didn't improve?

 

[peeup]

The gap in communication here: The skills that people obtain via completing SSE, smash the targets, all-star, etc. are NOT AT ALL the same skills that people obtain via playing with other people. Neither are better or worse, they are just not the same.

 

[Big-Cat]

Training mode is used primarily for working on spacing, perfecting combos, edge guard tactics, etc. when used by tournament players.

Playing single player stuff won't help, especially with a lack of progressively smarter/tougher AI.

And don't take it so personally, but all that single player stuff will only help for so long. If you really just want to get better, then play online if your connection is kind to you.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

I would've definitely done that, if it was possible.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

You think I was thinking about winning a tournament when I played all those event matches, adventures, all-stars, etc? I was playing to challenge myself.

If you want to challenge yourself learn some advanced techniques. Don't complain because people outside of your friend circle were playing at a level you were unaware of. That's just petty.

 

[BentoBox]

I'm sure competitive players do a lot of things in training mode.

And my friends doesn't live in my house, what am I supposed to play if not against bots, challenges, etc.? You think I was thinking about winning a tournament when I played all those event matches, adventures, all-stars, etc? I was playing to challenge myself. You think that it is enough to only play against players of your caliber, nothing more? Do you think that I didn't learn anything when 3 level 9 AIs are constantly punishing me?

And do you think that my friends that have played with me never got better at all, thus I didn't improve?

Adapting to predictable AI doesn't prepare you in any way in regards to reading live opponents' plays. So yes, any improvement you allude to is made meaningless because of two drastically different environments. You need to play against better players, not CPUs, if you wish to make a dent in the competitive scene.

For you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQxy26IijUA

I'm done. I have nothing to gain from this.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

Adapting to predictable AI doesn't prepare you in any way in regards to reading live opponents' plays. So yes, any improvement you allude to is made meaningless because of two drastically different environments. You need to play against better players, not CPUs, if you wish to make a dent in the competitive scene.

For you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQxy26IijUA

I'm done. I have nothing to gain from this.

Yeah, you are probably right, those kicks look pretty accurate.

This is all off-topic anyway.

 

[VA3TO]

I'm sure competitive players do a lot of things in training mode.

And my friends doesn't live in my house, what am I supposed to play if not against bots, challenges, etc.? You think I was thinking about winning a tournament when I played all those event matches, adventures, all-stars, etc? I was playing to challenge myself. You think that it is enough to only play against players of your caliber, nothing more? Do you think that I didn't learn anything when 3 level 9 AIs are constantly punishing me?

And do you think that my friends that have played with me never got better at all, thus I didn't improve?

Well, no it didn't. It taught you how to fight against CPU's and their programming and not against a thinking opponent. Beating 3 lvl 9 CPU does not equate to your skill what so ever.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

You felt like repeating what about 3 people have already said?

edit: but nah, it's ok...

 

[kisamefishfries]

Simple. Brawl is slightly floaty and low speed. melee was fast and actiony. Anyone can pick up brawl and have fun. Melee took some practice. Btw, brawl did outsell melee. Granted the wii dominated the gamecube in sales.

 

[VA3TO]

Simple. Brawl is slightly floaty and low speed. melee was fast and actiony. Anyone can pick up brawl and have fun. Melee took some practice. Btw, brawl did outsell melee. Granted the wii dominated the gamecube in sales.

But because it out sold it does not make it a better game or made it more accessible. I mean, look at Call of Duty. Would you say that's a good game?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Despite my arguments against the removal of ATs, I do know how people like LinkFromAFuture feel. I used to play casually almost every day; Jumping with the joystick, feeling like I was all that because I figured out how to shield grab and mastered dodge-rolling. Then I saw some tournament videos of Ken and thought, "wow, I'm pretty terrible". It wasn't a good feeling at first. But after doing a little research and trying these advanced techniques for myself, I realized how much they bring to the game. A little while later I was SHFFLing, improving my spacing, edge game, baiting, etc. It brought new life to the game and I got into it more than ever.

Point being: Give these techniques a shot. Find some friends that try to improve at the same rate as you. Once you get these mechanics mastered I guarantee you will not want to go back to smash-spamming.

 

[kisamefishfries]

But because it out sold it does not make it a better game or made it more accessible. I mean, look at Call of Duty. Would you say that's a good game?

ok... you got me there CoD is crap. But lets not act like brawl wasn't fantastic either. I mean you can prefer melee, but lets face it the worst smash bros is still a top tier game. CoD sells well because its over rated. Brawl sold well because its a game that literally anyone can pick up and play and have a blast. The next one is actually going to be half way between the two. Which i think will be awesome.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

Despite my arguments against the removal of ATs, I do know how people like LinkFromAFuture feel. I used to play casually almost every day; Jumping with the joystick, feeling like I was all that because I figured out how to shield grab and mastered dodge-rolling. Then I saw some tournament videos of Ken and thought, "wow, I'm pretty terrible". It wasn't a good feeling at first. But after doing a little research and trying these advanced techniques for myself, I realized how much they bring to the game. A little while later I was SHFFLing, improving my spacing, edge game, baiting, etc. It brought new life to the game and I got into it more than ever.

Point being: Give these techniques a shot. Find some friends that try to improve at the same rate as you. Once you get these mechanics mastered I guarantee you will not want to go back to smash-spamming.

Yeah, this is probably what I'm going trough right now.

 

[Renji64]

ATs really help give the game long term value the more that is removed the less the depth the game seems to have.

 

[The World Warrior]

I'm just gonna say that advanced techniques matter once one in a group of say, 5 people, learns to perform said techniques. They'll quickly leave the other 4 in the dust. I know because I'm one of those people. My friends and I used to play Melee for fun very often and we were all quite equal once of started getting competitive. Then I discovered the Melee tourney scene and the way they played. For the exception of wavedashing, which I'm still trying to get the hang of, I learned how to dash dance, shffl, foxtrot, L-cancel and about spikes, DI, hitstun, and so on and so forth. I was on a whole new level and my friends who were once so much of a challenge were no match for me anymore. They never got into advanced techniques. We all stopped playing because I would win 95% of time.

We all gathered again when Brawl came out but after a few sessions we all decided we didn't like the feel of it and went back to Melee before we all retired once again for quite a while.

I feel once you delve into advanced techniques there is no going back. I tried playing without them once but I felt so restricted.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Agreed! People keep saying that L-cancelling and wavedashing don't hurt casuals, but guess what, they do! Seriously, no casual is going to find out about them without looking online or something (which casuals don't usually do) but they still play online! And honestly, it sucks to go online and some person, that is the same skill level as you in normal fighting without L-cancelling and wavedashing, kicks your butt just because they have heard about a way to do something that has no drawbacks at all, and is useful all the time (L-cancelling)! Then the average casual, after getting owned a few times by that sort of thing, will just quit, and who knows, if not for that they may have enjoyed the game more, and eventually become a competitive player.

Then that's your problem. You're making it sound like as if you have never played a video game online before; there will always be an opponent who is better than you who has the technical skill and knowledge to defeat a lesser opponent. You're also assuming that this player is of same skill level as you. The thing is that no matter what technical aspects of the game can be exploited, the player who is at an advantage is the smarter player and the player who can make practical use of these techniques. That's like complaining about Quick Scoping in Call of Duty, where the appropriate response according to you would be t make Sniper Rifles incapable of shooting out of focus. Wave dashing and L-canceling don't give you a a win by default. It's a slide and a technique that causes half landing lag on aerials. Wave dashing doesn't refresh your hits, or do damage or anything of the sort, however, in the hands of someone who doesn't understand how and when to use it renders it useless.

The people who are owning you are more experienced players who understand match ups, mind games, spacing and technical skill. You can't attribute these things to two of the many techniques that Melee has to offer. If you lose to someone who is better than you and you feel the urge to quit then that is YOUR problem, not the game.

 

[Vkrm]

Simple. Brawl is slightly floaty and low speed. melee was fast and actiony. Anyone can pick up brawl and have fun. Melee took some practice. Btw, brawl did outsell melee. Granted the wii dominated the gamecube in sales.

You could just as easily pick up and play melee. Practice was only necessary when playing other players who practiced. That's how it should be.

 

[INs4niTY-]

People who mastered Melee would totally annihilate any casuals in brawl anyway so why do people keep saying they want to beat someone who plays competitively :S. They are competative for a reason, they are better than you. Why should you win
against them? lol. If someone is better at a game they will win, there's no mechanic to change that other than adding random luck, which is in the form of items or smash balls. You can't say it's fair that a game loses some of it's competitive play just because you can't handle losing to someone who's better than you.

As stated before there should just be different rankings of play online so casuals are not mismatched with those who want to play competitively. There will hopefully be an option to turn items off online so that will already divide and stop the mismatch happening already.

 

[Big-Cat]

Speaking of rankings, I really like how Tekken does their rankings. You're given titles as you go up higher and higher. They aren't distinct though as you climb up all the way from 9th Kyu to True Tekken God. This is a pretty useful tool as well for assessing the skills of a player. And to top it all off, you're defined by mostly your win rate and that every character is ranked separately so this is really useful if you're trying out a new character or two.

 

[SmashChu]

I don't understand Sakurai's reasoning behind his most recent statements regarding the game. Voicing his concerns of "the SILENT majority prefers Brawl over Melee" which is completely.... well full of sh*t to be completely honest. Anyway, on with the post.

How does the effects of wave dashing or L - cancelling OR any other gameplay enhancing techniques change the way casual players play the game? To them they get a great cross over fighting game with their favourite characters they get to play with their friends and will probably lose interest within 2-3 months or so. if someone is willing to put more time and effort into the game OF COURSE that player is going to beat someone whose only been playing for fun. Why take away what that person has earned through training?

Catering to the people who are actually going to continue to play this game through the years (Melee has been played for over 12 years now, it shows what people WANT) just makes more sense from a design stand point. I can understand that Brawl was set out to entice casual players to the franchise and bring in a bigger player base. I can forgive that. I can't forgive that it done to the Smash Genre as a whole. They made the game boring and near unplayable (Yes there are tournaments still going but will soon be replaced by SSB4. Melee will remain strong).

Advance tech. create barriers for new players. Being able to use a technique efficiently and effectively gives a player an advantage. Of course, this requires more time and practice to use. What is does is increase the skill gap. This is problem now because games are all online. More barriers means newer players can go online without learning and mastering them. Most people don't dedicate a heck of a lot of time to a video game Basically, these techniques discourage players from playing the game online and gives a sense of dissatisfaction with the product. Smash is made for a broad audience. Brawl sold over 11 million copies. Smash Boards has over 100,000 users. The biggest Brawl and Melee tournaments have less than 500 entries. So when making this game Sakurai has to consider everyone's opinions. A lot of players don't like advance techniques as they don't like wasting time going though all these things just to play the game. Wavedashing, for instance, was universally hated outside of competitive Smash communities. For a similar example, Snaking was hated. While Snaking existed before MKDS, it was removed after the online game as it was then that it hurt everyone's experience. Basically, the short answer to your question is it puts less dedicated players at a greater disadvantage.

A better question is why do competitive Smash players need advanced techniques. It's never been a condition to play a game. Chess has no advance techniques but it doesn't stop people from having Chess tournaments.

 

[VA3TO]

Advance tech. create barriers for new players. Being able to use a technique efficiently and effectively gives a player an advantage. Of course, this requires more time and practice to use. What is does is increase the skill gap. This is problem now because games are all online. More barriers means newer players can go online without learning and mastering them. Most people don't dedicate a heck of a lot of time to a video game Basically, these techniques discourage players from playing the game online and gives a sense of dissatisfaction with the product. Smash is made for a broad audience. Brawl sold over 11 million copies. Smash Boards has over 100,000 users. The biggest Brawl and Melee tournaments have less than 500 entries. So when making this game Sakurai has to consider everyone's opinions. A lot of players don't like advance techniques as they don't like wasting time going though all these things just to play the game. Wavedashing, for instance, was universally hated outside of competitive Smash communities. For a similar example, Snaking was hated. While Snaking existed before MKDS, it was removed after the online game as it was then that it hurt everyone's experience. Basically, the short answer to your question is it puts less dedicated players at a greater disadvantage.

A better question is why do competitive Smash players need advanced techniques. It's never been a condition to play a game. Chess has no advance techniques but it doesn't stop people from having Chess tournaments.

Chess is slightly different than a competitive video game, I don't even understand why you made that reference haha. There are plenty of advanced strategies behind chess but I won't begin to follow this point.

Every online game in existence has people that are better at the game and have picked up on mechanics other people don't really see. Snaking vs AT's in Smash are on a COMPLETELY different level. Snaking in MKDS could mean the difference between over lapping your opponent and completely crushing them. AT's in Smash do not give you NO WHERE NEAR the advantage Snaking offers so again; this point is mute.

But the problem is, Smash has advanced. It has evolved to the point where people want it to be competitive. If you are looking to better yourself you are no longer a casual player. You want to get better at the game. You are willing to be better than your opponent. Adding these techniques gives advanced players extra room to imrpove the game beyond what was originally thought. That is brilliant for the game and adds years and years of life to it. Melee is STILL being played all these years later and is being featured at EVO to this day.

There aren't any "barries" only people not willing to learn. If people "don't put in a lot of time" they do not deserve to be the best. Why should they be on equal level to someone who puts so much more effort in? Plenty of people get WRECKED everyday "online" so that is not even an excuse to make.

A player DOES NOT have to use these "Advanced Techniques" in order to play the game. He has all the choice to unlock all the characters, play with his friends with items on and even play online in "Free for All" matches. But once a player wants to be better at the game, they will have to learn. AT's add so much depth and variety to gameplay it would be idiotic to try and purposely programme them out. Ignorance and laziness to learn needs to be abolished.

 

[INs4niTY-]

Smash bros requires skill so comparing it with Chess doesn't really work.

 

[SmashChu]

Smash bros requires skill so comparing it with Chess doesn't really work.

So you're saying Chess doesn't require skill

 

[INs4niTY-]

So you're saying Chess doesn't require skill

No it doesn't require skill, it requires strategy and thought ect, if you class that as skill then so be it. It's a thinking game compared to the fast paced action of smash bros don't you agree?

 

[VA3TO]

So you're saying Chess doesn't require skill

Chess requires strategy and thinking. Yes this is a 'skill' but not physical 'skill' that Smash also requires.