How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[TheTuninator]

I don't really understand how the bolded goes with your point. It seems really contradicting actually.

Maybe I am out of touch with casuals. The only experience I have with the casual community is Brawl, and just about every Brawl player I knew at my university wanted to go into tournaments. We did 1v1s mostly, but we also did FFAs with items when we just wanted to fool around. I beat their faces with Ike, Link, and Mario. And I also got wrecked at times myself, but we all had fun.

Yes, there are times when I called bull**** on stuff, but they weren't ATs. It was stuff like D3's chaingrab or IC's grab infinites, or Metaknight. So I don't see how ATs should be singled out. I mean, ****, even to this day I hear people say Ike is a cheap character to play.

This also raises a valuable point in that new players are always going to feel discriminated against by certain aspects of Smash, whether it be a character with a machine gun punch jab, a spammy character like MK, or a noob masher like Ike. This can't be avoided, so to sacrifice gameplay depth in an attempt to do so is rather pointless.

If a player has the drive to learn how to counter and overcome moves and characters that they previously found to be "cheap" and unbeatable, there's no reason for this drive to improve to shut off suddenly once the player hits a level where ATs begin to emerge.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Metacritic's user reviews are higher for Melee than they are for Brawl.

Gameranking's user reviews are higher for Melee than they are for Brawl.

Over 30% of Gamecube owners own Melee as opposed to just over 10% of Wii owners owning Brawl.

There's my proof. Where's yours?

They still aren't the majority. Just because a few reviewers give it a higher score doesn't mean EVERYONE IS HARDCORE COMPETITIVE.

...and what the **** is Gameranking?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Ignore this, accidental doublepost.

 

[Vkrm]

I'm guessing he thinks casuals would ruin the competitive scene or something weird. He doesn't understand that the way to grow the competitive scene is to make the competitive game more accessible.

That's odd considering there are games that are both more complex and more active.

They still aren't the majority. Just because a few reviewers give it a higher score doesn't mean EVERYONE IS HARDCORE COMPETITIVE.

...and what the **** is Gameranking?

To be honest the actual majority had already made up their after the trailer. They flat out, don't care how competitive the next version is.

 

[GamerGuy09]

This also raises a valuable point in that new players are always going to feel discriminated against by certain aspects of Smash, whether it be a character with a machine gun punch jab, a spammy character like MK, or a noob masher like Ike. This can't be avoided, so to sacrifice gameplay depth in an attempt to do so is rather pointless.

If a player has the drive to learn how to counter and overcome moves and characters that they previously found to be "cheap" and unbeatable, there's no reason for this drive to improve to shut off suddenly once the player hits a level where ATs begin to emerge.

Again, this is more of a balance problem than a accessibility problem. However, we do need these characters as stated in the video below...well atleast characters like Ike which are really easy to use and are some what powerful. Without characters like him, noobs wouldn't have any chance against high level players. However, we can't make these characters to strong or they become OP.

That's odd considering there are games that are both more complex and more active.

The difference between smash and street fighter is that street fighting is made from the get go to be tough and challenging to learn. So when people buy it, they know what they are getting into. However Smash is special because it introduces new players to a genre that they would never imagine loving.

 

[Vkrm]

That's not my point. We don't love smash because of how easy it is. They could make the next one as complex as they want. As long as it has the fan service people expect it'll sell.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

They still aren't the majority. Just because a few reviewers give it a higher score doesn't mean EVERYONE IS HARDCORE COMPETITIVE.

...and what the **** is Gameranking?

I never said they were all hardcore competitive. I said people that played both Melee and Brawl generally prefer Melee, and my research backs it up.

And if you did a simple Google search you would find that Gamerankings is an aggregate review site like Metacritic.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I never said they were all hardcore competitive. I said people that played both Melee and Brawl generally prefer Melee, and my research backs it up.

And if you did a simple Google search you would find that Gamerankings is an aggregate review site like Metacritic.

The Gamecube was a Flop and the Wii was a huge sucess. So people bought brawl more than melee thanks to your information.

That's not my point. We don't love smash because of how easy it is. They could make the next one as complex as they want. As long as it has the fan service people expect it'll sell.

Yes, but that would make people just play the party aspect of the game. We don't want that. We want them to become one of us. Making the online multiplayer more accessible, SSB4 could have a higher competitive popularity than Melee if done right.

 

[HeroMystic]

Just asking, does "Casual" mean "New to Smash" or "Plays Smash in Free Time".

They usually fall into the same criteria.

Because people who play smash in their free time probably already know about the tournament scene. However, players new to smash probably think it is ONLY a party game. We want to learn to them that smash is a viable fighting game via online matches. Also that stuff at the end is mostly balance problems, not accessibility problems.

New players hardly ever get into a competitive tournament scene by first-hand experience alone.

If we want completely new players to learn about the tournament scene, the player in question has to spectate the sport, and we have this in the bag though sending replays, youtube, and spectator mode. They usually see a really awesome match and then point and declare "I wanna do that!"

Online matches simply serve as an access to other players. It does nothing more than that. It's up to us as a community to be welcoming to casuals whenever we see them play, and not shun them just because they don't know how to perform ATs or barely know about the mechanics. We could easily message a newbie we just played and say "Hey, GG. If you wanna play more, feel free to add me", and that gives the Competitive Community another player. It is not up to the game itself to expand the playerbase. Only we can do that.

 

[TheTuninator]

The Gamecube was a Flop and the Wii was a huge sucess. So people bought brawl more than melee thanks to your information.
Yes, but that would make people just play the party aspect of the game. We don't want that. We want them to become one of us. Making the online multiplayer more accessible, SSB4 could have a higher competitive popularity than Melee if done right.

Not to be rude, but you continue to claim that complex mechanics put casual players off of improving without offering a single iota of proof. If Melee gained a thriving competitive scene despite having ATs, why should we expect that ATs will inhibit the competitive scene of SSB4?

 

[GamerGuy09]

Not to be rude, but you continue to claim that complex mechanics put casual players off of improving without offering a single iota of proof. If Melee gained a thriving competitive scene despite having ATs, why should we expect that ATs will inhibit the competitive scene of SSB4?

My proof is brawl. Even though Brawl isn't as crazy competitive as Melee, it has a large casual and competitive player base. Also the difference between Melee and Brawl/SSB4. Is that these have an online component. Instead of just fighting against friends and CPUs, they can fight high level players from the get go. Also, i'm guessing why Melee got so popular was because of Brawl. People who played Brawl wanted a more competitive experience so they switched to Melee. However with SSB4 we don't want them to switch. We want SSB4 to be bigger and better than Melee.

They usually fall into the same criteria.



New players hardly ever get into a competitive tournament scene by first-hand experience alone.

If we want completely new players to learn about the tournament scene, the player in question has to spectate the sport, and we have this in the bag though sending replays, youtube, and spectator mode. They usually see a really awesome match and then point and declare "I wanna do that!"

Online matches simply serve as an access to other players. It does nothing more than that. It's up to us as a community to be welcoming to casuals whenever we see them play, and not shun them just because they don't know how to perform ATs or barely know about the mechanics. We could easily message a newbie we just played and say "Hey, GG. If you wanna play more, feel free to add me", and that gives the Competitive Community another player. It is not up to the game itself to expand the playerbase. Only we can do that.

This is what is going to happen if SSB4 plays their cards right. If we get players to want to play multiplayer on their own volition, they will search the guide videos, then the tournament videos, then watch the livestreams. Then become one of us! Plus trust me, we have our bad eggs in our community. Look at SNK_NeoN.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

The Gamecube was a Flop and the Wii was a huge sucess. So people bought brawl more than melee thanks to your information.

No kidding. That was my point. If the Gamecube sold half as well as the Wii, Melee would have outsold Brawl if the numbers can be trusted.

 

[GamerGuy09]

No kidding. That was my point. If the Gamecube sold half as well as the Wii, Melee would have outsold Brawl, according to the numbers.

But....we don't know that. That is just guessing. The proof is that more people have Brawl than Melee, which makes Brawl MORE POPULAR than Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

Again, this is more of a balance problem than a accessibility problem. However, we do need these characters as stated in the video below...well atleast characters like Ike which are really easy to use and are some what powerful. Without characters like him, noobs wouldn't have any chance against high level players. However, we can't make these characters to strong or they become OP.

You missed the other points of the video. The point of things like the noob tube is that it gives a sense of confidence for the beginner, but it ends up not being super important at higher levels. It's like Fredrick in Fire Emblem Awakening. He can kill a lot of units easy while taking little damage for a good portion of the game, but there comes a point where the enemies and the other characters have caught up in strength and stamina. That being said, Fredrick remains a useful unit in his own right, but he's no longer a crutch.

What shouldn't happen is that the beginner player wins against a much better opponent outside of beginner's luck. These newb friendly tactics need to be easily countered for being over reliant on them. Quite frankly, this is a normal thing to happen in other fighting games at a meta level. Wakeup DPs in Street Fighter 4 are the nectar of the gods at the lower levels, but it becomes a more discretionary thing the higher you go up because people know how to bait them out.

 

[nLiM8d]

There is a difference between feeling as if the game cheated you and that you aren't skilled enough.

Your initial example was wavedashing, in that players have felt cheated because they had no comprehension of its benefits.

Alright, let's discuss the contrast of the included elements of the game that haven't been addressed by the game itself.

Let's analyze shall we?

The game says nothing about frame data, more specifically cool down frames that are involved in performing a specific motion. The tutorial here makes no mention of Tech's. Not even any word about air dodging.

Why am I mentioning all this? These are options that are present within the game's design which are specific to certain situations. They exist for the sake of giving a player tools that they can use in the various/sporadic situations that a game like smash introduces. When do we discuss them? When we have explored the bounds of possibility within your everyday gaming session. The video doesn't tell you how to run or jump, but you still find a way to incorporate those functions in a suitable way.

Something as simple as running is situation based and can be used in numerous ways to the player's benefit, they aren't cheating because they can utilize their understanding of their character's run cycle in beneficial ways. The other player(s) that can't understand or appreciate this don't make them any worse for it either; if nothing else, it makes them ignorant but that's NOT altogether a bad thing.

Don't regard advanced techniques as an aspect of the game can only be attributed to highly skilled, these are elements that were realized through intuition. Skill is a benefactor of intuition.

 

[GamerGuy09]

You missed the other points of the video. The point of things like the noob tube is that it gives a sense of confidence for the beginner, but it ends up not being super important at higher levels. It's like Fredrick in Fire Emblem Awakening. He can kill a lot of units easy while taking little damage for a good portion of the game, but there comes a point where the enemies and the other characters have caught up in strength and stamina. That being said, Fredrick remains a useful unit in his own right, but he's no longer a crutch.

What shouldn't happen is that the beginner player wins against a much better opponent outside of beginner's luck. These newb friendly tactics need to be easily countered for being over reliant on them. Quite frankly, this is a normal thing to happen in other fighting games at a meta level. Wakeup DPs in Street Fighter 4 are the nectar of the gods at the lower levels, but it becomes a more discretionary thing the higher you go up because people know how to bait them out.

Yes, but a high level Olimar can still take out a low level Ike. All I want is a new generation of smashers to join and play with us. And in my eyes the best way to do that is to remove the ATs.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

But....we don't know that. That is just guessing. The proof is that more people have Brawl than Melee, which makes Brawl MORE POPULAR than Melee.

You're ignoring the ratings I posted. I never said Melee had a larger playerbase, I said Melee is PREFERED over brawl, which the ratings on several different sites back up. Sakurai himself admitted to this, he just believes in these invisible "silent minority", which is blind speculation, and an excuse for the piece of crap he developed in Brawl.

 

[TheTuninator]

Brawl is hardly proof that removing ATs makes for a more active competitive playerbase. Brawl has a far larger install base than Melee and is therefore virtually guaranteed to have a larger scene. No comparison between the size of the two playerbases is really valid here.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

Also, i'm guessing why Melee got so popular was because of Brawl.

what the **** am I reading

 

[GamerGuy09]

You're ignoring the ratings I posted. I never said Melee had a larger playerbase, I said Melee is PREFERED over brawl, which the ratings on several different sites back up. Sakurai himself admitted to this, he just believes in these invisible "silent minority", which is blind speculation, and an excuse for the piece of crap he developed in Brawl.

I just went to check and Brawl has a 93 on metacritic and a lot more reviews while Melee has a 92. I still don't get your point in all this.

 

[TheTuninator]

what the **** am I reading

I got into Melee because of Brawl, though I am probably the exception rather than the rule.

 

[GamerGuy09]

what the **** am I reading

Many people I know went back into Melee after playing brawl, most of them missed out on the GameCube because on how bad it sold. So they bought the game and used it on their Wiis.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I just went to check and Brawl has a 93 on metacritic and a lot more reviews while Melee has a 92. I still don't get your point in all this.

I said USER reviews. The critic reviews are by less than 100 random websites. The USERS (i.e. everyone else) universally prefer melee. I didn't say web organizations preferred Melee.

Many people I know went back into Melee after playing brawl, most of them missed out on the GameCube because on how bad it sold. So they bought the game and used it on their Wiis.

The vast majority of Melee copies were sold before Brawl was even a thought, lol

 

[Big-Cat]

Yes, but a high level Olimar can still take out a low level Ike. All I want is a new generation of smashers to join and play with us. And in my eyes the best way to do that is to remove the ATs.

N's post reminded me of something very important. If anything, the biggest problem with these so called advanced techniques isn't their difficulty, but rather the lack of knowledge of them.

We don't see anything about things like frame data, air dodging, etc in the How To Play video. By some insane logic, someone could say those things are advanced techniques because the video never says anything about them.

The more important thing is to raise awareness of these techniques. Tekken's Fight Lab got the gist of this down by teaching about things like the four limb button system, tags, bounds, throw escapes (albeit one type), and especially sidestepping. It didn't teach everything, but it was enough to get you started to feel like you knew what you were doing. Of course, Virtua Fighter 4 EVO is considered the best tutorial for a fighting game out there that has yet to be replicated, not even by its sequel which even includes frame data in the training mode.

I still think certain things should be "kept secret" for the player to discover. For example, there are stance cancels in Tekken which prove to be very useful in certain situations and can raise your number of options up with enough practice.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I said USER reviews. The critic reviews are by less than 100 random websites. The USERS (i.e. everyone else) universally prefer melee. I didn't say web organizations preferred Melee.

Even then Brawl got 369 positive reviews besides Melee's 159. Besides Metacritic isn't all that reliable.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

Even then Brawl got 369 positive reviews besides Melee's 159. Besides Metacritic isn't all that reliable.

Because

A: The Wii was hugely more popular than the Gamecube, and
B: The gaming scene was way bigger overall in 2008 than 2001

The fact remains that Brawl sold better because the Wii had a bigger install base, not because it had a better reception. 32% of all Gamecube owners had Melee, but only 11% of Wii owners had Brawl.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

WRONG

Somebody who's only owned the game for a week should not come close to beating an individual who put an excessive amount of time mastering the game. Yes, lower skilled players need to EARN THE RIGHT to compete at a high level. They need to do a lot of research. They need to do a lot of practice. They need to do a lot of WORK. THAT'S LIFE!

 

[SKM_NeoN]

 

[GamerGuy09]

Because

A: The Wii was hugely more popular than the Gamecube, and
B: The gaming scene was way bigger overall in 2008 than 2001

The fact remains that Brawl sold better because the Wii had a bigger install base, not because it had a better reception. 32% of all Gamecube owners had Melee, but only 11% of Wii owners had Brawl.

That 32% only seems big just because the gamecube didn't sell well. Also, wasn't Melee a near lauch title? So more people picked it up just because it was the first few lauch game for that system. Brawl came out 2 years after the Wii.

*insert picture*

I'm Done. Good Bye.

 

[nLiM8d]

By some insane logic, someone could say those things are advanced techniques because the video never says anything about them.

I was trying my best to omit any 'fluff' in my post, I totally deleted the segment where I discussed how those elements aren't AT's. Thank you.

I still think certain things should be "kept secret" for the player to discover.

Agreed. That's part of the beauty in game design, even if its unintentional. Players will always find ways to surprise developers with the things they can discover; only by exploration.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I'm Done. Good Bye.

lol, I hope you aren't taking this discussion personally. I sense a little animosity in your response.

 

[Shadic]

Also, i'm guessing why Melee got so popular was because of Brawl. People who played Brawl wanted a more competitive experience so they switched to Melee.

I'd recommend you study up on the history of competitive Melee then. You sound utterly ignorant to both the scene and the fundamental concept of competitive game design.

 

[VA3TO]

But....we don't know that. That is just guessing. The proof is that more people have Brawl than Melee, which makes Brawl MORE POPULAR than Melee.

Hahaha, no. It means Brawl had a larger install base BECAUSE the Wii sold better. That has nothing to do with the popularity of it. More people had a Wii so more people could buy Brawl. If the Gamecube had sold the same Melee would have been purchased more than Brawl.

 

[VA3TO]

Yes, but a high level Olimar can still take out a low level Ike. All I want is a new generation of smashers to join and play with us. And in my eyes the best way to do that is to remove the ATs.

This statement is so full of sh*t it's unbelievable.

A new generation of Smashers can come along fine if AT's are implemented. They have to LEARN. Removing them only harms the Smash scene in the long run. Giving the new players "Noob Friendly" characters is fine in my books (except Metaknight, the most Broken character in all of fighting games) but taking away options from players is a BAD idea. They have the initial characters to learn the basics and do well but in order to beat better players they have to drop the training wheels and LEARN new AT's. The video you posted even stated this.

 

[BentoBox]

This argument will lead nowhere if everyone holds onto the idea that Advanced techniques = WD+L-c. You can remove both elements from Melee, and the game would still remain deeper than Brawl just because the engine allowed for more options. How can someone possibly defend the removal of light shield? The removal of Dash-Dancing? What was inherently wrong with Melee's ledge-mechanics that justfied dumbing down? Etc.

 

[VA3TO]

This argument will lead nowhere if everyone holds onto the idea that Advanced techniques = WD+L-c. You can remove both elements from Melee, and the game would still remain deeper than Brawl just because the engine allowed for more options. How can someone possibly defend the removal of light shield? The removal of Dash-Dancing? What was inherently wrong with Melee's ledge-mechanics that justfied dumbing down? Etc.

We usually end up only defending these 2 AT's because that's the only thing these "REMOVE AT'S" people can think of. They don't understand the depth and what Brawl has actually done to Smash in the long run.

 

[peeup]

N's post reminded me of something very important. If anything, the biggest problem with these so called advanced techniques isn't their difficulty, but rather the lack of knowledge of them.

We don't see anything about things like frame data, air dodging, etc in the How To Play video. By some insane logic, someone could say those things are advanced techniques because the video never says anything about them.

The more important thing is to raise awareness of these techniques. Tekken's Fight Lab got the gist of this down by teaching about things like the four limb button system, tags, bounds, throw escapes (albeit one type), and especially sidestepping. It didn't teach everything, but it was enough to get you started to feel like you knew what you were doing. Of course, Virtua Fighter 4 EVO is considered the best tutorial for a fighting game out there that has yet to be replicated, not even by its sequel which even includes frame data in the training mode.

I still think certain things should be "kept secret" for the player to discover. For example, there are stance cancels in Tekken which prove to be very useful in certain situations and can raise your number of options up with enough practice.

I think the problem you've brought up here is very much the central problem of competitive smash. Smash was designed to be a casual game, and so it would feel really awkward for a How To Play video to include all the complex ATs of Melee (I'm ignoring Brawl ATM because it isn't as relevant.) The average joe Melee player has absolutely zero need or desire to learn about things such as wavedashing, because they really don't care that much about the game. Well, that isn't quite right. What I mean by that is, when you play Mario Party, you don't consciously try to improve at the game. You play it with your friends, and you try to beat them, but you would never boot up the game by yourself and practice the intricacies of the minigames. You play it for fun and you play it to win, but you don't play it to be the best at the game that you can be. Prior to my knowledge of this website, that is exactly how I played Smash. I played it with friends, frequently chose the random option, and was horrible by competitive standards. And it was still my favorite game of all time.

Now on the other hand, having ATs and frame data already displayed to you in-game could be a huge boon to the competitive scene. Injustice had tournaments and such going pretty much right off the bat. This is probably very much due in part to the fact that the tutorial actually teaches you how to do a lot of things you wouldn't normally be able to figure out on your own. Also, each command list has the frame data and other notes for each and every attack. With this already put into the game, breaking into a competitive scene from a previously casual standpoint is pretty easy, because you already have the core knowledge that all the try-hards do. That's a very good thing. However, it also really takes out some of the casual fun that the game can offer. Because the game kinda hits you over the head with how deep and complex it is, it loses a lot of its pick-up-and-play appeal. This is because it is immediately apparent when you pick up the game that there is a whole lot of difficult things you have to figure out in order to be any good at the game. While this is true for Smash as well, the average player does not know it, and so they can easily pick up the game and feel competent even while playing at a rudimentary level.

So. Giving players direct access to frame data/ATs can hugely help competitive play. It can also hugely damage casual play. And, at the end of the day, Smash is a casual game. Due to the nature of Smash, I think it's just better for people to naturally stumble upon this website, or another like it. If they're even searching for a Smash site, it means they want to grow competitively.

tl;dr: Having an in depth How To Play video is inferior to simply having the in depth information on an online, fan created source. That way the casuals can be casual, and the players that want to be competitive can be competitive.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

I have 300+ hours of playing Melee, mostly with my friends and I am a casual player. I know I was pretty good at it (not anymore however), loved the game really much (still do), completed it almost 100% (only few all-star character trophies missing). Even though I am casual player, I still wanted to be good at the game and get better (I practiced a lot). I played VS. mode with items always, they add the element of luck but Super Smash Bros Melee is one of the few multiplayer games where I don't mind about luck and that really amazes me.

Most items are not difficult to counter if you know what to do, there are only few situations where the doom is inevitable. But even with items, it was almost always the one who played better won the game.

I never even knew there was such thing as L-cancelling or wavedashing until recently. And they make me sad. Now I know I couldn't have had a change against some competitive player because I didn't know some kind of weird technique. Things like those are terrible for games, they divide casual gamers and competitive gamers from each other. Especially now when playing online is possible. They are like cheats, because I dare to say 80% of players don't even know they exist. If they are going to add L-cancelling, I hope they at least tell it in the tutorial and make it look less exploity. But I still hope they won't.

And I fail to see what these secrets add to the game, other than glitchy looking movement? Why does it seem like these competitive players want to have these secrets that only they know about? Do they just want to have unfair advantage against those who have never even heard about these things? Do they think that if you have to press few buttons more, the game will have more depth, not complexity? The game already has tons of depth, even without those weird features. 25 characters, many maps, many game modes, tons of items, etc etc. But maybe when you stip the game from everything you consider even slightly lucky, the game will turn shallow?

But I do agree about physics and I don't see why it would affect casual players to have great physics like in melee.

 

[VA3TO]

I have 300+ hours of playing Melee, mostly with my friends and I am a casual player. I know I was pretty good at it (not anymore however), loved the game really much (still do), completed it almost 100% (only few all-star character trophies missing). Even though I am casual player, I still wanted to be good at the game and get better (I practiced a lot). I played VS. mode with items always, they add the element of luck but Super Smash Bros Melee is one of the few multiplayer games where I don't mind about luck and that really amazes me.

Most items are not difficult to counter if you know what to do, there are only few situations where the doom is inevitable. But even with items, it was almost always the one who played better won the game.

I never even knew there was such thing as L-cancelling or wavedashing until recently. And they make me sad. Now I know I couldn't have had a change against some competitive player because I didn't know some kind of weird technique. Things like those are terrible for games, they divide casual gamers and competitive gamers from each other. Especially now when playing online is possible. They are like cheats, because I dare to say 80% of players don't even know they exist. If they are going to add L-cancelling, I hope they at least tell it in the tutorial and make it look less exploity. But I still hope they won't.

And I fail to see what these secrets add to the game, other than glitchy looking movement? Why does it seem like these competitive players want to have these secrets that only they know about? Do they just want to have unfair advantage against those who have never even heard about these things? Do they think that if you have to press few buttons more, the game will have more depth, not complexity? The game already has tons of depth, even without those weird features. 25 characters, many maps, many game modes, tons of items, etc etc. But maybe when you stip the game from everything you consider even slightly lucky, the game will turn shallow?

But I do agree about physics and I don't see why it would affect casual players to have great physics like in melee.

L cancelling first appeared in the original Smash so that is in no way an "exploit" more than a lack of understanding. Wavedashing does not add "glitchy" and "exploity" movement being as most if not all competitive games have some mechanic to make your character move faster and/or more efficiently.

If you aspire to be a competitive player and someone uses these techniques on you, you can't exactly complain. You just weren't ready to compete. Once you have done your research you can easily come back and give it another go. It's not like you have to unlock these abilities by playing longer; you only have to PRACTICE.

People need to get rid of this "Oh you press more buttons, that makes you better? TAKE IT AWAY" mentality because its going to keep hurting the franchize like Brawl has. These "buttons" give players more options in a competitive setting allowing the fights to be more strategic even if you cannot see it yourself.

These techniques are no way NEAR "exploity" or "look glitchy". Infinite combos are "exploity" and auto aim "looks glitchy".

I have put over 1000+ hours into Melee because I love it that much and playing the game competitively is absolutely frantic and technical to play, and I love it because of this. Just because you yourself cannot perform these techniques doesn't mean you should take them away. Learn, practice and aspire to get better.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

L cancelling first appeared in the original Smash so that is in no way an "exploit" more than a lack of understanding. Wavedashing does not add "glitchy" and "exploity" movement being as most if not all competitive games have some mechanic to make your character move faster and/or more efficiently.

If you aspire to be a competitive player and someone uses these techniques on you, you can't exactly complain. You just weren't ready to compete. Once you have done your research you can easily come back and give it another go. It's not like you have to unlock these abilities by playing longer; you only have to PRACTICE.

People need to get rid of this "Oh you press more buttons, that makes you better? TAKE IT AWAY" mentality because its going to keep hurting the franchize like Brawl has. These "buttons" give players more options in a competitive setting allowing the fights to be more strategic even if you cannot see it yourself.

These techniques are no way NEAR "exploity" or "look glitchy". Infinite combos are "exploity" and auto aim "looks glitchy".

I have put over 1000+ hours into Melee because I love it that much and playing the game competitively is absolutely frantic and technical to play, and I love it because of this. Just because you yourself cannot perform these techniques doesn't mean you should take them away. Learn, practice and aspire to get better.

Thanks for the polite reply.

Is L-cancelling really an option, or is it a thing that you need to do every time to play well? Is there a reason not to do it?

edit: And I do consider "Jump and dodge in the air to slide on the ground" glitchy.

edit again: Just watched some youtube video about Samus' "super wave dash". Wow the melee competitive looks really lame honestly.