Skill and strategy are not mutually exclusive. I have a feeling you don't know what the word skill means.
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How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?
- Thread starter VA3TO
- Start date
LinkFromAFuture
Smash Rookie
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- Jun 27, 2013
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I think that casual players (including me) think that l-cancelling and wavedashing are weird because they aren't very intuitive.
Look at any basic move in smash. Attack + direction = you attack that direction. Really simple and intuitive.
Then look at these advanced techniques.
-Jump and right after that do a directional dodge to slide on the ground. It doesn't make much sense. You press jump, but you don't actually use it to jump. You press dodge, but you use it to move faster rather than to dodge.
-Shield/dodge slightly before falling on the ground to reduce the recovery time. You don't actually use shield/dodge to shield/dodge, you use it to recover from attack. That's pretty weird too.
That was pretty weirdly explained, but I hope you understand what I mean.
So that's probably why they feel glitchy/gimmicky/weird/messy from the perspective of casual players.
Look at any basic move in smash. Attack + direction = you attack that direction. Really simple and intuitive.
Then look at these advanced techniques.
-Jump and right after that do a directional dodge to slide on the ground. It doesn't make much sense. You press jump, but you don't actually use it to jump. You press dodge, but you use it to move faster rather than to dodge.
-Shield/dodge slightly before falling on the ground to reduce the recovery time. You don't actually use shield/dodge to shield/dodge, you use it to recover from attack. That's pretty weird too.
That was pretty weirdly explained, but I hope you understand what I mean.
So that's probably why they feel glitchy/gimmicky/weird/messy from the perspective of casual players.
Sorry for not being clear, I was talking about SSB4, and if it had L-cancelling. If there is no online and you are playing against competitive players, I agree that it is fair to have ATs. I am just thinking for casuals who want to fight online, it would kinda suck going against people who do all sorts of ATs, when they would never figure out how to do them.
If you are a casual player, you will likely be like "screw this" and just quit, which means they will never be more invested in the game, and never become competitive.
If they're playing online then they probably have Internet access. Just saiyan...
And you think it'd be a good idea to cheapen the competitive experience for these people? Why? We could just as easily put in online matchmaking.
peeup
Smash Lord
Assuming SSB4 has Brawl's general system of online (vs Friends and vs Anyone), you would likely (re: definitely) only be playing against either casual friends, or people you met online. If it is the latter, you would likely (re: definitely) have equal exposure to ATs as your opponent. Games in the vs Anyone category are unimportant because its a free for all anyway.
So I still don't really get the problem.
I think you're confusing "casual player" with "constant bitcher and moaner." I am by no means a competitive Starcraft II player, but I enjoy the game. So, when I get stomped on by everybody on Battle.Net, I look up build orders, strategies, and other things that can help me go toe to toe with people so that I can continue to enjoy the game. And I enjoy it.
ALSO, you can be a casual player and not play online. It's pretty possible. I'm ASSUMING that you never became frustrated with Melee because, when you and you're friends played together, they were wavedashing all over the place and using all these ATs that you didn't understand. Smash will always, always, always have a much bigger casual playerbase than competitive. You will always, always, always be able to find a casual game of Smash. There is no, no, no reason for ATs to be removed. Removing them alienates the competitive scene, keeping them alienates the small percentage of people that are inclined to ***** and moan when they aren't good at a game. SPOILERS: This demographic will be alienated no matter what.
I said if you class it as skill then so be it. Did you forget to read that part lol. I also mentioned that smash bros is fast paced action. Let's not argue for no reason :|
RODO
Smash Ace
I don't think they should build a game that caters to quitters. That's not a very good mentality to have in anything
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Why is this thread still full of people who think that anyone is seriously arguing that casual players should be able to win tournaments? This is a depth vs. accessibility argument for christ sakes.
Now you're just being argumentative. You know what he means, stop being so trivial.
I'm arguing against the idea that the addition of online means we need to accept a less deep game.
peeup
Smash Lord
Zero people are arguing anything close to that, but nice try.
The argument is about alienating a demographic, be it casuals or competitives.
Let's look at history and see if we can learn something.
Melee introduced an assload of things that added depth and skill to gameplay. Number of people alienated: probably nobody.
Brawl introduced a style of gameplay that reduced the depth and skillcap. Number of people alienated: the majority of the Melee community.
Somebody please provide a counterpoint to the fact that ATs should not be removed (or in other words, should be reintroduced.)
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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Looks like my thread trumps yours, bro!
It is only the casual players that have the mindset that "Casual" and "Competitive" styles of play are mutually exclusive. 100% of strong players started out because their favorite Nintendo character was in a new game and it looked fun. Some people get bored of that and want to level up their game, and some don't. It's not a big deal. Most top players have an endearing attitude toward FFA matches with items, it just doesn't excite them for long.
There is only one side of this argument that is actively trying to impose their will on the other. What if you were forced to go through a trial mode where you had to perform 10 L cancels, 10 wavedashes, and do a 10 hit combo before you were allowed to access online mode? We can all agree that would be stupid, but that is the inverse argument to saying that you must be required to be bad at the game in order to play correctly. Claiming that allowing access to higher level play restricts lower level play is like saying that removing religious slogans from money and public schools is an attack on Christianity.
Nobody has even argued that a competitive ruleset should be default out of the box, they just want it to exist. That is beyond reasonable.
There is only one side of this argument that is actively trying to impose their will on the other. What if you were forced to go through a trial mode where you had to perform 10 L cancels, 10 wavedashes, and do a 10 hit combo before you were allowed to access online mode? We can all agree that would be stupid, but that is the inverse argument to saying that you must be required to be bad at the game in order to play correctly. Claiming that allowing access to higher level play restricts lower level play is like saying that removing religious slogans from money and public schools is an attack on Christianity.
Nobody has even argued that a competitive ruleset should be default out of the box, they just want it to exist. That is beyond reasonable.
Renji64
Smash Lord
I don't see how smash is like chess at well maybe brawl due to slow speed but the other entries no.
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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If I could internet kiss you, I would.
LinkFromAFuture
Smash Rookie
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I, or many other non competitive players, don't feel try hardy enough to practice these extra skills. I've enjoyed more than 300 hours of the game without those, so it kinda feels that I don't need them because the game is already tons of fun. But we still want to enjoy playing online.
Presuming that online features are going to be improved from those of Brawls, I am going to play online alot. However, sometimes I get to play against opponents that are using ATs against me. I already love this game as it is without ATs, but now someone uses these techniques against me and has a big advantage because of it. So now I feel like that I have to put much work to learn these moves (unlike all the other moves that are really simple to learn), not because I need them or really want them, but because I feel like some matches are ruined because my opponent has an advantage.
You see, me, or many other non competitive players, we just want to have good matches. I know there are tons of people who think like me, who would just want these ATs out of the game, because they seem like extra work and a mess compared to every other move in smash. It wasn't the complexity why I fell in love with Smash, it was the simplicity. That doesn't mean there is no depth in smash. Everything was easy to learn and intuitive. Until I found out about ATs.
In my opinion it would even be good for the game to remove these complicated techniques, no matter how much I get flamed by saying this. I just think that it doesn't even fit into smash.
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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Im sorry but you should have no opinion on Smash what so ever.
Continue to play Brawl because it offers all of what you just said. Leave Smash 4 for the new players that want a great game.
Just because you are too lazy to learn doesn't mean the game should be dampened altogether. That thought process disgusts me.
Morbi
Scavenger
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you want advanced techniques why don't you try out Street Fighter or KoF? There are plenty of hardcore Fighting Games. Most people playing Smash think the same way as him. SSB is a casual party game. It can be played competitively. However, that isn't the intent. That isn't even the audience Sora Ltd. is trying to reach. So his opinion is not only relevant but it is valid. I play Mortal Kombat/Injustice, Tekken, and Soul Calibur for my competitive needs. I play SSB and PSBASR for my casual needs. The majority of people don't want ATs in the game, they just want to enjoy the game with their friends and have fun. So it isn't really fair to say that his opinion doesn't matter.
Don't get me wrong. I love ATs and I want some in Smash 4. However, I am not going to demand it. I already have hardcore games to fall back on.
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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I play plenty of "hardcore" fighting games but nothing compares to Smash. As much as I love my Marvel and SF, Smash has a completely different feel and mentality towards it.
But most people don't understand is, that is the beauty of Smash. It can do it all. It can be a party game with your friends and it can be a highly competitive experience which is what makes it such a good game. Having AT's doesn't affect their gameplay, it really doesn't. They don't want them in because they don't want to learn new things. They can't be bothered to try and compete so instead take it away from other players, which is wrong. You go online and play with your friends, cool you can do that. You can go online in a free for all with items on, cool you can do that too. AT's won't get very far in that because items play too much of a role and won't impact the overall outcome of the game, the player will. So then you feel the need to 1v1 someone online (given you are able to) and you lose because you see these techniques then want them removed? How about learning them and making your overall experience far greater?
Selfish motives for lazy people, in my opinion.
Morbi
Scavenger
I get that. I come from a competitive scene too. So I get everything you are saying. In fact it is common sense in the hardcore scene. At the same time dismissing his opinion is not necessarily going to solve anything. I play smash in a free for all environment with friends so ATs hardly ever aid me. CG is next to useless.
I just think you could have made your point without blantantly disregarding his opinion. If you think Smash can be played casually and competitively part of that is communicating with the casual community. Maybe making ATs more accessible is a good compromise?
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
Ow man... You can at least say what you think without being that mean
Give hir some credit, ze came in and expressed hir opinion, the opinion that people were trying to grasp this entire thread it seems about how a lot of people can possibly feel about ATs.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was how MANY people felt about it in all honesty. Coming from PSAS we had tons of small weird things like this that divided the community a TON (kill confirms as an example if you know the game, but also maybe listing the bold and/or empty cancel and the Isaac Gun Loop) Funny thing in PSAS is it DID make the game worse in a sense. They left bad tastes in people's mouths after playing, and tore a community apart. It COULD be possible that having something like this might make people resent playing online in some way, it had a similar effect on a similar game. It's kinda worth at least LOOKING at.
And sure, I understand no one here wants the game "dumbed down" but there's a point where we MIGHT need to make a sacrifice to make sure people like the game and it is well received, because with the possibility of DLC and patches being a bit more likely this time around, we could end up with the same terrors PSAS had, asking for bajjlions of things to change and fix based on a large player base to whom they must cater to keep the game selling well. And that killed PSAS pretty darn quick in all honesty. How could you deny the cries of TONs of random online players saying "FIX THIS!" it may be better just to avoid it as much as it hurts to say, because you are backed into a corner at times: please the people giving me money so I can have this game maybe have a sequel again, or stick to my guns and possibly lose the series forever?
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
double post
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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Ow man... You can at least say what you think without being that mean
Give hir some credit, ze came in and expressed hir opinion, the opinion that people were trying to grasp this entire thread it seems about how a lot of people can possibly feel about ATs.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was how MANY people felt about it in all honesty. Coming from PSAS we had tons of small weird things like this that divided the community a TON (kill confirms as an example if you know the game, but also maybe listing the bold and/or empty cancel and the Isaac Gun Loop) Funny thing in PSAS is it DID make the game worse in a sense. They left bad tastes in people's mouths after playing, and tore a community apart. It COULD be possible that having something like this might make people resent playing online in some way, it had a similar effect on a similar game. It's kinda worth at least LOOKING at.
And sure, I understand no one here wants the game "dumbed down" but there's a point where we MIGHT need to make a sacrifice to make sure people like the game and it is well received, because with the possibility of DLC and patches being a bit more likely this time around, we could end up with the same terrors PSAS had, asking for bajjlions of things to change and fix based on a large player base to whom they must cater to keep the game selling well. And that killed PSAS pretty darn quick in all honesty. How could you deny the cries of TONs of random online players saying "FIX THIS!" it may be better just to avoid it as much as it hurts to say, because you are backed into a corner at times: please the people giving me money so I can have this game maybe have a sequel again, or stick to my guns and possibly lose the series forever?
Yes I can be a harsh prick but it does need to be said; I am still making sense, right?
.Although PSAS is similar to Smash it is entirely different as well. The simple fact of the KO system makes the AT's completely different. All the AT's in Melee gave you the option to out manoeuvre your opponent and out gimp them, where as in PSAS it resulted in an actual KO. You still had to beat your opponent in Melee; if you see what I mean.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I know you are inclined to your opinion, but I implore you to please educate yourself on the aspects of Brawl, or better, Smash in general before you make any unfounded statements.
You see, your statements are misconstrued, as when you say people who are using "AT's" or "Players who use AT's on me", it just sounds like you are really saying "People who are better than me". Brawl was intentionally designed with casual play in mind and implemented several limiting factors as to "close the gap" between competitive and casual players. Knowing this, how in the world would you lose to a player who has access to the very same plethora of attacks and techniques as you? Pray tell, what techniques did these players use online that made you lose? I can only conclude since there really are none that put you in a great advantage over the player, that you are just a worse player than the supposed "AT user".
I would understand the problem if the players were using a glitch that completely cripples you; like the Soul Stunner Glitch in Melee, or like in Metroid Prime hunters when you can camp in walls and you were unable to kill the player, or anything that breaks the game in general, but you are simply whining about losing to an opponent who is significantly better than you. However, I will give you the benefit of a doubt; what constitutes as an advanced technique to you? Short hopping? Teching? DI? Powershielding? Chaingrabbing? These things are fairly basic, while the only other practical technique I see being used is platform canceling, and only that can be performed on specific stages.
The thing is, Smash is always going to be simple, and you can play the game in as simple as you want. No one is imposing that you are required to learn these techniques to play the game; you either use them or you don't. Since these things don't affect the way you and your friends play this shouldn't be a problem. From the way your argument sounds it seems as if you weren't successful in learning how to play better and/or continually lost without trying to evaluate your mistakes. If i'm wrong in my notion, tell me why you are here then?
Like I stated earlier in the thread, you're ability to succeed is your problem and no one elses. There has been no online game I have ever played that deliberately crippled the mechanics of the game for the possibility that you may run into a less skilled player. I suggest you learn stop blaming other people for your performances, man up and move on.
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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I get that. I come from a competitive scene too. So I get everything you are saying. In fact it is common sense in the hardcore scene. At the same time dismissing his opinion is not necessarily going to solve anything. I play smash in a free for all environment with friends so ATs hardly ever aid me. CG is next to useless.
I just think you could have made your point without blantantly disregarding his opinion. If you think Smash can be played casually and competitively part of that is communicating with the casual community. Maybe making ATs more accessible is a good compromise?
Sorry I thought it was obvious?
Having these things doesn't take away from their experience so why are these people trying to take it away from us? It hardly makes sense. If you find the need to compete or want to; the simple fact is you have to learn. You have to learn new things and in most competitive video games "COMPLEX" (because L cancelling and Wave Dashing is complicated, right?) controls offer more options to make the game more enjoyable to play and watch.
If people have that opinion where they disregard competitive players why should we regard his? I don't mean to sound like a prick but if people are saying **** like that I will call them out on it.
But you can see where I'm coming from, yeah?
AT's DON'T AFFECT THEIR GODDAMN PLAYABILITY OF THE GAME.
Morbi
Scavenger
CoD Black Ops 2. It pissed me off so much. Dropshotting was one of the techniques severely crippled.
Anyways... I don't even know what suffices as an advanced technique in Brawl. Nothing was too hard to grasp at all.
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
Yes I can be a harsh prick but it does need to be said; I am still making sense, right?
Although PSAS is similar to Smash it is entirely different as well. The simple fact of the KO system makes the AT's completely different. All the AT's in Melee gave you the option to out manoeuvre your opponent and out gimp them, where as in PSAS it resulted in an actual KO. You still had to beat your opponent in Melee; if you see what I mean.
I think you miss a bit of what PSAS ATs managed to do. Actually, there are some that are horrifyingly worse but I don't list them for fear they could magically spread... Instant unlimited KOs for example XD
But even these others I mention HEAVILY affected all gameplay, to the point the entire community blew up about it and argued, and information wasn't always spread properly about them so some people thought some were glitches when they weren't, and it caused HUGE arguments and wave dashing... Wait... The similarities...
Remember the "wave dashing is a glitch" thing? You want that kinda stuff back? We had stuff like that 24/7. People running to forums crying "make it go away!" and the game makers seeing such floods of requests doing so for most things because they were expected to and can't disappoint the fanbase. We got a patch that literally completely changed the ENTIRE game making MONTHS of practice 100% useless. All because they pretty much had to. I NEVER want to see anything like that in a game again. And if patches are used heavily in smash, expect all of these little things we find that aren't intended to be taken out. The random masses WILL ask for it.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
double post again
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
CoD Black Ops 2. It pissed me off so much. Dropshotting was one of the techniques severely crippled.
Anyways... I don't even know what suffices as an advanced technique in Brawl. Nothing was too hard to grasp at all.
Amen. Drop shots are ridiculous. So many people just play with MP7 and DS, but it's whatever though.
An advanced technique in Brawl is usually a series of simple techniques formed into something impractical for the purpose of become famous on the net. Not trying to hate on Brawl, but it does make me shake my head when people imply that the game is difficult or that it requires some technical skill.
VA3TO
Smash Apprentice
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Yes but "Instant Unlimited KO" is a bit more game breaking than "Wave Dashing" dont you think?
None of the AT's in Melee are game breaking. Except maybe drill shining into a wall but that is ridiculously hard to do and hard to initiate, but whatever. Name ONE game breaking AT in Melee compared to PSAS?
Terrazi Terrajin
Smash Ace
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Why is this in the smash 4 section again?
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
I dunno, they aren't super easy to compare. (Though my one example was an insane glitch as more of a joke)
Lemme try to come up with something... close as I can.
Or maybe a better example in the Isaac Gun Loop. It essentially trapped people until a burst combo or possibly kill if you were talented enough. It's still in the game since we'll never get a patch.
It allows you to punish EXTREMELY well, and is a rather strong tactic that you would't know how to do unless you practiced and looked it up. When it became semi popular, people FREAKED out. Said it was OP, unfair, broken, ruined the game.... It was intense. But again, the game is dead and it'll never be taken out, and who knows, might not have been anyways (the Bold and/or Empty Cancel they kept in because they liked it, (wave dash kinda thing). But this tactic gets NASTY reactions online, people HATE it, RQ because of it, and unless the wiifi is REALLY good and can properly handle that, these ATs are going to ruin online play for a lot of people... Darn RQing.... =_=
It may seem silly, but someone who could run the ATs easily online might make people cry "glitch!" and report you if that's possible, or just consider you a cheater since they DONT know it exists and never care enough to go online and learn better so they quit. It can have nasty reprecussions even though not having them can suck too.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I know zero people are arguing that. But you people THINK they are. And your arguments against casuals are assuming it.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
I think before this discussion goes further, I think we need to stop to think as to what exactly ATs are. The general definitions people seem to be using are:
1. Infinites and Gamebreakers
2. Execution heavy techniques
3. Anything that a "casual" player can't get the first try.
4. Taking advantage of the inherent properties of techniques.
I'm of the camp that anything in definition 4 should be retained, provided that they do not break/glitch the game. If you want to see a good example of ATs in another game besides Smash, look at this video:
Here, Xiaoyu is utilizing several different things to dance around Heihachi. These things include stance canceling, adapting, and whiff punishing. This is very hard to pull of in a real match because of the need to adapt and read. You can't always press the same buttons in the same order and expect a good result each time. Here, these kinds of things are truly advanced tactics because they require strong understanding of both characters in the match. Should Smash equivalent tactics like these go away? Not at all as it does not break the game and proper reads of where the hell she's gonna go to can stop her as seen at the end of the video. She still needs solid play to win, but this ability to dance circles around the opponent is very useful and would complement her fundamentals.
Things that fall under category 1, infinites and gamebreakers, should be taken out. There's no arguing this really. Category 2 can easily overlap with 4 because utilizing inherent properties could lead to fast execution as seen with MvC combos. Category 3 is just scrubs whining that they can't get it right the first time.
1. Infinites and Gamebreakers
2. Execution heavy techniques
3. Anything that a "casual" player can't get the first try.
4. Taking advantage of the inherent properties of techniques.
I'm of the camp that anything in definition 4 should be retained, provided that they do not break/glitch the game. If you want to see a good example of ATs in another game besides Smash, look at this video:
Things that fall under category 1, infinites and gamebreakers, should be taken out. There's no arguing this really. Category 2 can easily overlap with 4 because utilizing inherent properties could lead to fast execution as seen with MvC combos. Category 3 is just scrubs whining that they can't get it right the first time.
RODO
Smash Ace
I just don't understand. It's like complaining that you didn't get a job because there was someone who was better qualified than you who got a college degree when you didn't. It's one thing to say that you think AT's are stupid and don't fit into the game, that's fine. But saying you don't want them in just because someone out there is better than you and you don't want to lose online is just not a suitable mentality. Someone is always going to be better than you or me at everything in life, that's just a fact that we need to accept, and we shouldn't punish people who put forth so much time and effort to get where they are.
Another thing is that I find it ironic that these "casual" players seem to want these techs out of the game so they can be more competitive. If you are truly as casual as you say then you probably wouldn't even care in the first place (generalizing, not talking to you). And also, if they allow you to make custom matches online or if they just keep brawl's, free for all matches with items is considered casual play. Most people who don't play 1v1 without items aren't going to be competitive anyway. It really shouldn't be hard to avoid playing competitive players. Brawl catered to casuals with it's online so I feel like they need to lean more to the other side or at least somewhere in the middle for the next one. Taunt parties are killing that game. /rant
Luigi player
Smash Master
As much as I loved WD in Melee... it's not what should be possible in such a game. Such advanced techniques might not really influence casual players that much (they might even learn it if it's explained as a "true move"), but it's still a really strange thing. I rather want Sakurai to make the games better in other ways, but I prefer Brawl over Melee anyway, so it isn't really a concern to me. Brawl was almost perfectly fine imo (except tripping/infinites), and Smash 4 can be better than Brawl.
peeup
Smash Lord
Dude, play any other game online. You'll get stomped by people regardless of whether or not you know about ATs. Pointing to my Starcraft II example, I know the ins and outs of the game, yet I get my ass handed to me most of the time. That's part of playing a game online. And it's still fun.
You're enjoyment of a game with ATs before you even knew about them is a testament to everything that I'm trying to argue. You're doing my job for me.