How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[SmashCentralOfficial]

I agree. I also feel like he should expand on some aspects of playing smash on a higher level. They could be short segments like "Platform attacking"

It could show the potential dangers and benefits of being on a platform when an opponent is bellow you.

"Marth specializes in ranged attacks, his sword will cut through it! Prepare yourself"

"Block his attack at just the right time then..."

"Drop through the platform and counter attack with an aerial. Take the offensive and proceed with a combo attack!"

"Make sure when you block you block it right. If you fall off the edge you'll tumble through the air helplessly"

*Picture of character on ground while Marth is running at him*

"Uh...you might want to get up...NOW!"

This is a great idea. Although Sakurai says he wants to bridge the gap between casual and competitive players, that will never happen. There's a difference between the two for reason. However, he CAN cater to both audiences at the same time by including advanced techniques. Like the OP said multiple times, there's no harm done to the casual player who plays with their casual friends and never explores Smash on a higher level. There is also nothing wrong with playing Smash inside of a vaccuum, everyone does it to some extent.

What would be amazing - like you said Eternal Phoenix Fire - is little instructional videos like there was in Melee, but a bit more in-depth. They could explain how to l-cancel, platform/ledge cancel, ledge tech, wall jump, etc. Even wavedashing and wavelanding could be easily demonstrated and taught, as I've done with other people before in the past.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You know, let me be fair here for a moment and make a concession. This might come back to bite me in the ass, but you know what, I might as well say it.

I don't totally hate ATs.

When I speak of ATs, I don't talk about simple things. L-cancelling, IMO, isn't too difficult because it's a single button. L. That's it. In the spirit of Smash, a fighting/party game with VERY simplistic controls, this isn't that bad. I speak of the extra complicated stuff. Like say...Wavedashing. Yes, yes, I know, 99% of the competitive people out there are going to jump down my throat and insist that wavedashing is the simplest thing ever.

But lets pretend that there's people out there who have difficulty with the execution. See, I started playing Smash Bros. because not only did I extremely enjoy the concept of Nintendo's IPs duking it out, but the controls were so incredibly simple in a genre that was almost defined as next to impossible for someone like myself to pull off. When I play BlazBlue and Persona 4 Arena (and yes, despite being a casual, I adore those games) I expect complex controls, and being how I'm not the most nimble fingered, I don't expect to get very far, ESPECIALLY with the competitive scene. Nor do I have anything against such controls, because when I go into a game like BlazBlue, I know exactly what I'm getting into.

Smash Bros on the other hand really resonated with me. Suddenly it was a game less about mechanical complexity and more about knowing your character, knowing what moves to use and when to use them. Knowing spacing and distancing. Knowing hitstun and recovery options. I was excited. See, I never was able to go to tournaments because for most of my Smash career (at least until Brawl was announced) I couldn't find any tournaments near me, or even how to enter.

Then I learned of wavedashing. A counter-intuitive movement system that went totally against what I had seen Smash as, that is to say an extremely mechanically simple fighting game that didn't require you to have pretzel hands. (Yes, that's a hyperbole.) Now I admit, I'm the kind of person who has a difficult time performing a half circle in fighting games (I've just recently mastered a quarter circle in my 24 years of life...) My biggest complaint wasn't the options it gave you, it wasn't the fact that it existed. It was the fact that not only was it complex in comparison to everything else Smash had to offer, it was also the fact that people defended it for its complexity in performing and seemed to speak praises that it prevented people from being able to fight at a competitive level.

So in the end, I don't mind ATs so much, but it's the insistence on complexity that really bothers and even sometimes angers me when people seem to ignore, or even insult new players who don't want to dedicate years of their lives with complex and even meaningless mechanical thresholds, especially when I've always viewed such things as against the spirit of Smash.

...

Well, I said my piece. Guess it's time to brace myself for the flames.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

L-cancelling, IMO, isn't too difficult because it's a single button. L. That's it. In the spirit of Smash, a fighting/party game with VERY simplistic controls, this isn't that bad.

Suddenly it was a game less about mechanical complexity and more about knowing your character, knowing what moves to use and when to use them. Knowing spacing and distancing. Knowing hitstun and recovery options.

THIS. This is why advanced techniques in Smash Bros. aren't even that big of a deal. They are extremely simple to perform, all it takes is a little practice. Being a Melee player for years, eventually you just develop the speed and muscle memory to be able to perform these techniques without even thinking about it. Jump-Cancel Grabbing is another technique that is extremely simple, however, I still to this date do not do it every single time yet simply because I haven't made it into a habit.

But Smash is also a game about knowing the characters, spacing, predicting, reading, etc. like you said. This is why many people, like myself, can get by fairly well in tournaments without Jump-Cancel Grabbing or Gentleman-ing 100% of the time.

Then I learned of wavedashing. A counter-intuitive movement system that went totally against what I had seen Smash as, that is to say an extremely mechanically simple fighting game that didn't require you to have pretzel hands. (Yes, that's a hyperbole.) Now I admit, I'm the kind of person who has a difficult time performing a half circle in fighting games (I've just recently mastered a quarter circle in my 24 years of life...) My biggest complaint wasn't the options it gave you, it wasn't the fact that it existed. It was the fact that not only was it complex in comparison to everything else Smash had to offer, it was also the fact that people defended it for its complexity in performing and seemed to speak praises that it prevented people from being able to fight at a competitive level.

This is the only part I don't agree with. Wavedashing is arguably the most important fundamental in SSBM, second only to l-cancelling. Not only does it allow you to move backwards without rolling or turning around and facing the other direction, it also allows you to move extremely quickly and fluidly across platforms. Wavedashing allows larger, slower characters (along with everyone else) to become exponentially more agile and free to move around the stage as they please.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You know, let me be fair here for a moment and make a concession. This might come back to bite me in the ***, but you know what, I might as well say it.

I don't totally hate ATs.

When I speak of ATs, I don't talk about simple things. L-cancelling, IMO, isn't too difficult because it's a single button. L. That's it. In the spirit of Smash, a fighting/party game with VERY simplistic controls, this isn't that bad. I speak of the extra complicated stuff. Like say...Wavedashing. Yes, yes, I know, 99% of the competitive people out there are going to jump down my throat and insist that wavedashing is the simplest thing ever.

But lets pretend that there's people out there who have difficulty with the execution. See, I started playing Smash Bros. because not only did I extremely enjoy the concept of Nintendo's IPs duking it out, but the controls were so incredibly simple in a genre that was almost defined as next to impossible for someone like myself to pull off. When I play BlazBlue and Persona 4 Arena (and yes, despite being a casual, I adore those games) I expect complex controls, and being how I'm not the most nimble fingered, I don't expect to get very far, ESPECIALLY with the competitive scene. Nor do I have anything against such controls, because when I go into a game like BlazBlue, I know exactly what I'm getting into.

Smash Bros on the other hand really resonated with me. Suddenly it was a game less about mechanical complexity and more about knowing your character, knowing what moves to use and when to use them. Knowing spacing and distancing. Knowing hitstun and recovery options. I was excited. See, I never was able to go to tournaments because for most of my Smash career (at least until Brawl was announced) I couldn't find any tournaments near me, or even how to enter.

Then I learned of wavedashing. A counter-intuitive movement system that went totally against what I had seen Smash as, that is to say an extremely mechanically simple fighting game that didn't require you to have pretzel hands. (Yes, that's a hyperbole.) Now I admit, I'm the kind of person who has a difficult time performing a half circle in fighting games (I've just recently mastered a quarter circle in my 24 years of life...) My biggest complaint wasn't the options it gave you, it wasn't the fact that it existed. It was the fact that not only was it complex in comparison to everything else Smash had to offer, it was also the fact that people defended it for its complexity in performing and seemed to speak praises that it prevented people from being able to fight at a competitive level.

So in the end, I don't mind ATs so much, but it's the insistence on complexity that really bothers and even sometimes angers me when people seem to ignore, or even insult new players who don't want to dedicate years of their lives with complex and even meaningless mechanical thresholds, especially when I've always viewed such things as against the spirit of Smash.

...

Well, I said my piece. Guess it's time to brace myself for the flames.

I totally feel where you're coming from. Believe me, there are certain technical barriers that people just can't break. Even the player Edreese, one of the best Peach players ever, admitted that he can't L-cancel aerials with Fox. Hell a lot of people can't. It's weird, I can shuffl and drill shine with Fox, but sometimes ill miss time a wavedash woth Falco. On the other hand, I can double shine with Falco...? It's weird.

The thing about AT's in smash is that they are somewhat complex, but they are all merely a conglomeration of inputs and movements that are all optional. Which could be illustrated here:

This is just Fox being flashy though. AT's in Melee in general are just how you use the tools given to you when playing. It's more or less applying them correctly then trying to input them at an extremely fast pace (don't get me wrong, you greatly benefit from being a fast player). It's the same way combos work in traditional fighters; combos are usually just bits and pieces of smaller combos (Bread and butter) combined into a larger string. Thinking this way it breaks the psychological barrier of doing something execution heavy.

There are some aspects in fighting games that are extremely technical, albeit they aren't ass accesible. For example, I play with Makoto in Street Fighter 3: Third Strike. she has a tool that allows you to cancel the lag off of her normal attacks called a "Hayate Cancel"

(I know its Steet Fighter 4 but this was the best I could find)

This is very useful for Makoto as it gives her mix up options and allows her to rush down freely. Hayate is her quarter circle forward attack, basically Ryu's fireball. The difference is this attack can be charge when you hold down the punch button; at this time during the charge you can cancel the attack by pressing a kick button. so, every time you see him cancel the attack, he is inputting: X Attack~Quarter Circle Forward+P~K. This is all just to cancel a normal, but given the character, she benefits greatly from it. These inputs however are extremely inaccessible when it comes to maximizing your characters potential. However, with smash, each character has access to the same amount of techniques (Minus Fox and Falco) for allowing a character to reach it's maximum potential. The character specific barriers are much much more accessible as well because they aren't limited by the imagination of a player.

In Street Fighter you can be successful playing Makoto without Hayate canceling, it's just an option for the player to maximize her mix up potentials, or just to put a fresh spin on the character. The same applies to smash, you can be successful by understanding basic technical elements if you choose to do so. If you want to kick it up a notch, go to the extreme and learn the technical stuff. If you aren't successful in the endeavor, be creative and work it out. Players like Masashi in Melee aren't that technical, yet they are still very successful players. It's all about breaking barriers.

 

[Chiroz]

I didn't want to get into this argument without much to say but...

The following post is not targeted towards any single person, the fact that I use you is meant to be seen as the plural conjugation of you. You refers to the group of anti-AT players who refer to themselves as casuals and argue against ATs because they claim it creates an unfair advantage for the competitive player

The problem with people like Ogre_Deity_Link is that they use the term "casual" to describe themselves in order to be able to say illogical things that do not make sense.

There is no black and white such as only Casual or Competitive player, but if they were none of the people in this forum is a casual, NONE, not even close to a casual. A casual player is one that upon losing not only does he not care that he just lost but he will probably just move on to a new game. A person who only plays the game when he sees the game on the stall or someone suggests playing it, a casual doesn't play smash with his sibling almost every day because by playing every day, he isn't being "casual" about it.

Not only that but the very definition of knowing what an AT is means you cared enough about the game to research what they were, spending that time means you are not "casually" approaching the game, you are trying to gain a competitive advantage. Here's the thing, most of you tried to gain this advantage and were unable to do so because you didn't want to spend the time or effort for it, that is fine, that is your choice. But how can you have the audacity to actually say that the game should remove them and cater to your needs?

Basically what people seem to be arguing is that the game should cater to the new aspiring competitive players, but not any new aspiring competitive players, the ones who are not motivated enough to actually dedicate some time to the actual game.

I know I might sound a bit harsh and I know that I am being a bit offensive, but quite honestly all I can read from most of the anti-AT crowd is just: "ATs are too hard and they should be removed because of it". That is horrible reasoning.

I myself believe some ATs such as L-Cancelling should be removed because of their artificial nature. Others techniques (not quite advanced) such as chain-grabbing should be removed because of balance issues, yet I would never argue the removal of a technique that adds depth and strategy to a game just because it takes more than a few hours to perform consistently.

You are effectively asking the game to cater to the whiners, no offense.

In my mind the spectrum from Casual to Hardcore has 5 levels.

Casual
Noob
Experienced
Serious/Hardcore
Pro

Casuals are normally the people who don't know about ATs at all. I have played with casuals and I have actually showed them WDing back when I was trying to get some friends to play Melee and you know what their response was: "Why would I need to learn that, I can run just fine". I told them all of the things that WD did, gave them the pros, the cons and even got them to practice it for a few minutes until they could get one or two in a row. You know what their response was? They didn't care, they weren't going to play Smash like I did, they could care less about it and never actually mentioned it again.

Noobs on the other hand have a different mentality. They want to gain an edge competitively, yet they don't want to spend much time doing so. They want results and they want them fast. Normally they believe that training against level 9 CPUs will give them some uber-human reaction time that will allow them to conquer all opponents. This are the kind of people that are then frustrated when they see an opponent performing an AT for the first time. They look it up, learn what it is and when they try to perform it they notice they can't do it the first time they do it. And then come the waterworks.

The thing about noobs is, they have a competitive mentality, but its a wrong type of mentality, like League (MOBA) players who think getting every single kill means they are the best player on their team or FPS players who think camping behind a door is the optimal strategy and don't even give a single thought about the fact that the game is actually a team game. It will work when playing with other noobs or casuals, but as soon as meet a competent player it just doesn't work.

Experienced players are the kind of players who have put time into the game and their skill level vary greatly. Sometimes some of these players practice for hours and just cannot learn the basics or the ATs, these players sometimes have a true impediment. Most often than not this impediment is met with great frustration if the experienced players has a true desire to advance to a next level, but also most of these players learn these techniques in order to have a higher understanding of the game and will sometimes not care when they aren't the best at the games technicalities.

Hardcore or serious players are the ones who always want to strive to be better, it doesn't matter if you go to tournaments or not, it doesn't matter if you play with items or not, it doesn't matter if you are actually good or not at the game at all, as long as you are working hard on improving and have a set amount of goals set forth for yourself, you are a hardcore player. A person who plays FFA with his 3 friends on PokeFloats with items on every day and every day he tries to learn new strategies and techniques in order to defeat his friend and maybe even memorizes some item spawn patterns (if those even exist) is still a hardcore player!

Pro players are those that actually win tournaments and have a name for themselves in the community. People who can disect the game, play a character and all of a sudden create a shift in the metagame of the game itself, not many people can fall into this category.



In order to make a small summary of my post I will write a bit more:

Yes, I know it is a difficult concept to grasp but the fact that you do not know how to execute wavedashing does not mean you are a casual. The fact that you play with items on on Brinstar does not mean you are a casual either. Hardcore and casual players are only divided by the mentality they set forth when they are playing the game. Anybody who cares enough about being in an equal footing with an opponent where skill is the determining factor is already thinking about the competitive scene and is thus not a casual. So anyone at all arguing about ATs cannot call themselves a casual player, wether you want to or not.

Instead you should refer to yourself as a new term. I call you noobs, but I realize that might be offensive to your group. I have no name for a person who wants to be at the competitive scene but wants to be handed everything outright. Basically what your are asking for is the ability to not only join the competitive scene, but to actually be able to contend in it without having to spend any time or effort.



I am sorry for my slightly offensive post and I know most of you will argue or disagree with me or quote me to some of your post, but quite honestly most if not all of the people I have read that are arguing against ATs normally use the term "casual" as a shield of sorts. Most of you do this because deep down you know how ridiculous it is to ask to drop the skill cap to a lower level so that your own skill can be closer to that ceiling without actually having to raise your own skill level at all.

If you want to argue for something don't shield yourself with lies. You are not a casual, you might not be a hardcore player either, but you are a competitive player by definition. So stop hiding behind silly terms like casual or competitive and actually argue for what you want with no fake shields. Say it like it is and express your opinions:

- "I do not want or do not have as much time to spend as most people do on learning ATs and I feel it is unfair that I cannot contend with other players at the competitive scene because of this. That is why I want the game to be removed of every and all ATs, because even though they add a great deal to the game and make it so much richer, funner and just incredibly elegant their removal would warrant that players like me who just will not or cannot learn them to feel like I can compete with you"

Note: Just as a side-note, even with their removal most of you will not be able to play the game at a high level. Why? It isn't because you lack the skill, don't get me wrong, I am not that kind of thoughtless person. It is because of your mentality. There will always be better players, with or without ATs. The fact is you might have closer fights with people who used to trash you but sooner or later you will run into a much better player and from what you have expressed here once you meet a decent number of these players, having nothing else to fall back on, you will either blame game mechanics or character balance.

You will try to overcome this unfairness by picking the character you were beat the most with or maybe learning the most game breaking mechanic if you have the motivation, but after both of those strategies are trumped and you are beaten by a player using the character that is considered lowest on the tier you will most probably just whine about the game and give up on the competitive scene, claiming that the competitive scene is bad/unfair/unbalanced because the game was not made to be played like that.

How can I say this? Well, because it is in your mentality and it is part of your personality, it's what you do, don't take it so harsh.



Edit: I just want to point out that my post is not pro-AT or anti-AT in its nature. Although I am pro-ATs that add depth such as wavedash, I am against other artifical ATs such as L-Cancel. I do not believe the topic is black and white and I myself am an advocate of making all ATs easier to learn and perform (such as giving wavedash its own easy input, like just mapping it to one button).

I believe in good, balanced game desing and I truly love deep game mechanics and things that add depth. I also truly love games that require thought and strategy over execution and although ATs do impose an execution barrier, the ones that I advocate for also introduce a higher level of thought and open up a plethora of options and thus a higher level of thinking which in my mind makes it okay that they require a harder execution. I prefer Melee over Brawl yet I do not hate either game and I can see each game as unique and as a very good game on its own merits, but I can also see the faults that are in both games, neither of the 2 games are perfect.

My post is basically Anti-Anti-AT players. I do not have anything personally against any of them but reading some of their posts was just kind of unsettling how they can claim to be players that do not care about being competitive at smash, yet they clamor for the option to have higher potential against those who do care. They claim they do not care at all about playing like us yet they want to hinder our style so that they can join it and play it.

I just think that is very hypocritical.

 

[peeup]

You know, let me be fair here for a moment and make a concession. This might come back to bite me in the ***, but you know what, I might as well say it.

I don't totally hate ATs.

When I speak of ATs, I don't talk about simple things. L-cancelling, IMO, isn't too difficult because it's a single button. L. That's it. In the spirit of Smash, a fighting/party game with VERY simplistic controls, this isn't that bad. I speak of the extra complicated stuff. Like say...Wavedashing. Yes, yes, I know, 99% of the competitive people out there are going to jump down my throat and insist that wavedashing is the simplest thing ever.

But lets pretend that there's people out there who have difficulty with the execution. See, I started playing Smash Bros. because not only did I extremely enjoy the concept of Nintendo's IPs duking it out, but the controls were so incredibly simple in a genre that was almost defined as next to impossible for someone like myself to pull off. When I play BlazBlue and Persona 4 Arena (and yes, despite being a casual, I adore those games) I expect complex controls, and being how I'm not the most nimble fingered, I don't expect to get very far, ESPECIALLY with the competitive scene. Nor do I have anything against such controls, because when I go into a game like BlazBlue, I know exactly what I'm getting into.

Smash Bros on the other hand really resonated with me. Suddenly it was a game less about mechanical complexity and more about knowing your character, knowing what moves to use and when to use them. Knowing spacing and distancing. Knowing hitstun and recovery options. I was excited. See, I never was able to go to tournaments because for most of my Smash career (at least until Brawl was announced) I couldn't find any tournaments near me, or even how to enter.

Then I learned of wavedashing. A counter-intuitive movement system that went totally against what I had seen Smash as, that is to say an extremely mechanically simple fighting game that didn't require you to have pretzel hands. (Yes, that's a hyperbole.) Now I admit, I'm the kind of person who has a difficult time performing a half circle in fighting games (I've just recently mastered a quarter circle in my 24 years of life...) My biggest complaint wasn't the options it gave you, it wasn't the fact that it existed. It was the fact that not only was it complex in comparison to everything else Smash had to offer, it was also the fact that people defended it for its complexity in performing and seemed to speak praises that it prevented people from being able to fight at a competitive level.

So in the end, I don't mind ATs so much, but it's the insistence on complexity that really bothers and even sometimes angers me when people seem to ignore, or even insult new players who don't want to dedicate years of their lives with complex and even meaningless mechanical thresholds, especially when I've always viewed such things as against the spirit of Smash.

...

Well, I said my piece. Guess it's time to brace myself for the flames.

I appreciate the honesty, I really do. So if this sounds assholish, I don't mean it to be at all, I'm just trying to articulate what "the other side" feels, so to speak.

The amazing thing about the ATs in smash (let's say wavedashing specifically, because that's just the easiest thing to talk about) is that, while it creates a new layer of depth for competitive players, it does nothing to harm the strictly casuals. For the group of semi-casuals that want to break into the competitive scene, it provides a small stepping stone. It provides them with a way to bridge the gap that they want to bridge. Sure, it might be hard to get it down to a science the way the pros have, and that might be intimidating. But if you want to get better, then practice! I'm sure it isn't easy to nail baskets with Lebron James' consistency, but does that mean that people who want to get good at basketball shouldn't aspire to be that good? Point being, if you really want to get good enough at something to compete at a professional, or even at a semi-professional, level, you need to put the time in to get better at the more complex nuances of that field. It doesn't matter what it is. Videogames, sports, business, etc. There is always a difference between those who do it for fun, and those who do it for sport.

 

[smashbrolink]

I appreciate the honesty, I really do. So if this sounds assholish, I don't mean it to be at all, I'm just trying to articulate what "the other side" feels, so to speak.

The amazing thing about the ATs in smash (let's say wavedashing specifically, because that's just the easiest thing to talk about) is that, while it creates a new layer of depth for competitive players, it does nothing to harm the strictly casuals. For the group of semi-casuals that want to break into the competitive scene, it provides a small stepping stone. It provides them with a way to bridge the gap that they want to bridge. Sure, it might be hard to get it down to a science the way the pros have, and that might be intimidating. But if you want to get better, then practice! I'm sure it isn't easy to nail baskets with Lebron James' consistency, but does that mean that people who want to get good at basketball shouldn't aspire to be that good? Point being, if you really want to get good enough at something to compete at a professional, or even at a semi-professional, level, you need to put the time in to get better at the more complex nuances of that field. It doesn't matter what it is. Videogames, sports, business, etc. There is always a difference between those who do it for fun, and those who do it for sport.

You claim it won't do anything to harm the strictly casuals.
Would you still be claiming the same thing if Melee were online-capable, and skilled AT-users started crashing into public online for the sake of demolishing anyone that isn't up to their level, then justifying it by telling them to get better or get out?
Because that's what leaving AT's in Smash 4 would leave room for, and I think we ALL know that it would happen.
There's not excuse for it, not even for "sport" or "fun".
It's literally a gateway for a specific group of higher skilled players to hop into random games and discourage anyone that isn't at their level by repeatedly beating their ass mercilessly into the ground with no regard to the difference in skill levels.
For ****s and giggles.
The benefits of a bit more depth aren't worth the risk of a select group of ass-hats[note that I'm not lumping all competitive players into that group] using them to troll the less-skilled who are going to try to get into the series with Smash 4.
Besides, Smash 4 has shown enough of itself so far to lend evidence of itself towards being more competitive than Brawl even without AT's, so them being gone will be a moot point in any case so long as it still has enough speed and hit-stun to satisfy.

 

[LinkFromAFuture]

The problem with people like Ogre_Deity_Link is that they use the term "casual" to describe themselves in order to be able to say illogical things that do not make sense.

What does it matter if he is not casual, I don't get it? To me it just seems that you're being a smartass when 70% of your reply is dedicated to counter one word from his post and ignore most of the his points. Ogre_Deity_Link 's post makes perfect sense to me, the fact that you think he is just “noob” just shows you don't understand what he is talking about.

Noobs on the other hand have a different mentality. They want to gain an edge competitively, yet they don't want to spend much time doing so. They want results and they want them fast. Normally they believe that training against level 9 CPUs will give them some uber-human reaction time that will allow them to conquer all opponents. This are the kind of people that are then frustrated when they see an opponent performing an AT for the first time. They look it up, learn what it is and when they try to perform it they notice they can't do it the first time they do it. And then come the waterworks.

The thing about noobs is, they have a competitive mentality, but its a wrong type of mentality, like League (MOBA) players who think getting every single kill means they are the best player on their team or FPS players who think camping behind a door is the optimal strategy and don't even give a single thought about the fact that the game is actually a team game. It will work when playing with other noobs or casuals, but as soon as meet a competent player it just doesn't work.

I don't think you got his point. He was talking about how some of the ATs feel complicated compared to everything else, it feels like it doesn't belong in the game. That's what I though when I saw ATs, that's what he thought when he saw them, that's what many others thought.

And the fact that you give us “noobs” the most ridiculed definition just shows how you just attack us personally and then pretend you're sorry. I could easily give competitive players very ridiculed and stupid looking definition from what I've seen in this thread, but I'm not going that low.

Every FPS player who starts competition pretty much knows what to expect. There aren't hidden “tools” other than maybe bunnyhopping, but it isn's that game changing mechanic. It doesn't give you that big advantage in most situations. But something like L-cancelling feels really powerful.

The problem here is the lack of information. You can't expect that there are such things that AT when you don't know about them. I think most people expect that smash competition is basically same stuff than normal smash games but overall better players and metagame. Some people get disappointed when they find out it wasn't what they wanted it to be. That's basically it.

I understand what competitive players see in ATs, but you guys keep repeating that everyone who doesn't like ATs is a noob, quitter, dumb, whiner, etc. Because you think like that you keep missing people's points.

It is not the same thing with basketball, or many other games. Everyone who starts basketball and hears the rules already knows everything. He knows that to become better he must become stronger, faster, more accurate and so on. He has probably even seen many top basketball matches before he started playing so he knows what to expect. He's expectations were realistic. That's a different thing. There weren't hidden tools.

I don't think your post made much sense, other than putting words in our mouths and then countering how you think we think to make it look you have a point.

edit: I understand what competitive melee players see in ATs, I can understand the... attraction in them. But could you stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you?

EDIT: I don't want dumbed down game. In fact I haven't even fully decided do I like ATs or not. I'm just trying to show you guys what the problem is, how some people see ATs. But yeah, I think the main problem is the lack of information.


EDIT AGAIN:

Casuals are normally the people who don't know about ATs at all. I have played with casuals and I have actually showed them WDing back when I was trying to get some friends to play Melee and you know what their response was: "Why would I need to learn that, I can run just fine". I told them all of the things that WD did, gave them the pros, the cons and even got them to practice it for a few minutes until they could get one or two in a row. You know what their response was? They didn't care, they weren't going to play Smash like I did, they could care less about it and never actually mentioned it again.

This is exactly the reason why I think that there needs to be an advanced tutorial. Even if the casuals or any other non competitive didn't care about them, they know have the right expectations and they know that they exist.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Again, my biggest issue with Wavedashing is the mechanical portion of it. Don't get me wrong, having more movement options (even if I personally think it just looks weird like every surface of Melee was covered in buttered ice) is a good thing. It's not so good when in a game where the controls are literally as simple as a button or a direction and a button, you have an AT that requires you to short-hop, fast-fall, air-dash into the ground all in the space of a second or less. It seems unnecessarily complex in such a simple game.

 

[Zonderion]

I didn't want to get into this argument without much to say but...

I just think that is very hypocritical.

Just FYI, your post was 2101 words... My final essay for my Theo class only had to be 1000.

[collapse="Define"]
Casual gamer
A casual gamer is a player whose time or interest in playing games is limited. Casual gamers tend to play games designed for ease of gameplay and don't spend much time playing more involved games. The genres that casual gamers play vary, and they might not own a specific video game console to play their games. Casual gamer demographics vary greatly from those of other video gamers, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female.One casual gamer subset is the "fitness gamer", who plays motion-based exercise games.
The term casual gamer can be used to distinguish between play styles of level-based character advance in nonlinear games with respect to the amount of dedicated hours of play. MMORPGs may require many hours of grinding to develop a character to maximum level and reach the endgame, and are thus not typically suited for casual gaming. However, games like DOFUS, Eve Online and The Lord of the Rings Online try to balance leveling between any casual gamers and those dedicating more hours to the game.

Mid-core gamer
A core or mid-core gamer is a player with a wider range of interests than a casual gamer and is more likely to enthusiastically play different types of games, but without the amount of time spent and sense of competition of a hardcore gamer. The mid-core gamer enjoys games but won't finish every game they buy, doesn't have time for long MMO quests, and is a. Nintendo president Satoru Iwata stated that they designed the Wii U to cater to core gamers who are in between the casual and hardcore categories.

Hardcore gamer
Hardcore gamers extend gaming into their lifestyle and may represent the stereotypical “game geek”. They are frequent purchasers of games, prefer to expend significant time on games, and are more likely to try to "master" their games by completing as many objectives as possible. Hardcore gamers may take part in video game culture such as competitions, events and conventions. Competitions may involve organized tournaments, leagues, or ranked play integrated into the game. An example of this is Major League Gaming, an electronic sports organization that often holds events for first-person shooter games such as Quake. There are many subtypes of hardcore gamers based on the style of game, gameplay preference, hardware platform, and other preferences.

Pro gamer
Professional gamers play video games for money. A professional gamer may also be another type of gamer, such as a hardcore gamer, if he or she meets the additional criteria for that gamer type. In countries of Asia, particularly South Korea and Japan, professional gamers are sponsored by large companies and can earn more than $100,000 USD a year. In the United States, Major League Gaming has contracted electronic sports gamers with $250,000 USD yearly deals.

Newbie
"Newbie" is a slang term for a novice or newcomer to a certain game, or to gaming in general. Two derived terms are "newb", a beginner who expresses a willingness to learn; and "noob", a derogatory term (an alternate spelling for n00b), though "newb" and "n00b" have become opposites of each other, meaning "newb" is plainly someone who is new to the game (thus having the potential to get better) and "n00b" is a player who both lacks skill and mainly fools around (not wanting to become better).[/collapse]

Before any sensible debate can be had, everyone must the same definition of the terms being thrown around. "Casual" and "Competitive" can have vastly different meanings depending on who you talk too. I pulld the above definitions from a Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamer), so take it for what you will.

It is interesting to note that the Wii U (which infers the games made for the Wii U - including Sm4sh) is made for the Mid-Core gamer. Is this the approach that Sakurai has for the new Smash title?

The next term that needs a uniformity in definition is "Advanced Techniques" - What is it that constitutes a technique being "advanced"? Although it might be easier to classify what isn't an advanced technique. According the This Wiki a spike is considered an AT.

Once these things are resolved, it should be much easier to articulate each persons' side of the debate, as well as understanding each view.

For the record, I would consider myself a Mid-Core gamer with the desire to be a hardcore gamer, but I do not have the luxury of time nor money.

 

[VA3TO]

The more I read this thread the more I question what defines a "competitive" player. I think I would like to know what the hell am I before I make a post lol.

So, what do you call a person like me who takes time to learn and practice ATs and applies them to day-to-day fights, but has never been to a tournament (including online ladders, etc)? I like to learn the mechanics, physics, and the metagame, hence why when I first learned about Brawl and Melee's ATs I tried my best to practice them. Did wavedashing come easy? For me, nope. But I kept practicing, though I'm still not perfect at preforming them. The funny thing is that I've just got a new GC controller (not made by Nintendo, mind you). But because of how it's overly sensitive, I can preform wavedashing more successfully.

The question is, do I want ATs to become easier? I personally don't wish for that. Like I said, I don't mind taking the time learning these things (I can't say the same thing for others, however). Makes me feel as though I am accomplished, y'know.

I would definitely consider you a competitive player because you strive to become better and want to practice the intricacies of the game because you love to.

So yeah this thread definitely applies to you.

 

[HeroMystic]

But lets pretend that there's people out there who have difficulty with the execution. See, I started playing Smash Bros. because not only did I extremely enjoy the concept of Nintendo's IPs duking it out, but the controls were so incredibly simple in a genre that was almost defined as next to impossible for someone like myself to pull off. When I play BlazBlue and Persona 4 Arena (and yes, despite being a casual, I adore those games) I expect complex controls, and being how I'm not the most nimble fingered, I don't expect to get very far, ESPECIALLY with the competitive scene. Nor do I have anything against such controls, because when I go into a game like BlazBlue, I know exactly what I'm getting into.

As a person who trained in Persona 4 Arena for pretty much no reason (P4U's tourney scene is active, but Texas is pretty dead), I'll say up front that it's system is very simple and easy to learn thanks to Lesson Mode, which teaches you literally every universal mechanic available to use. This is in stark contrast to Brawl's (and even Melee's) shoddy H2P video that doesn't even give you the opportunity to try out the controls. After that, the only thing left to learn for yourself is character-specific abilities and combos.

In ways, P4U did a much better job at being accessible as well as having competitive depth for the FGC. Much better than Smash ever did for it's whole existence.

Then I learned of wavedashing. A counter-intuitive movement system that went totally against what I had seen Smash as, that is to say an extremely mechanically simple fighting game that didn't require you to have pretzel hands. (Yes, that's a hyperbole.) Now I admit, I'm the kind of person who has a difficult time performing a half circle in fighting games (I've just recently mastered a quarter circle in my 24 years of life...) My biggest complaint wasn't the options it gave you, it wasn't the fact that it existed. It was the fact that not only was it complex in comparison to everything else Smash had to offer, it was also the fact that people defended it for its complexity in performing and seemed to speak praises that it prevented people from being able to fight at a competitive level.

So in the end, I don't mind ATs so much, but it's the insistence on complexity that really bothers and even sometimes angers me when people seem to ignore, or even insult new players who don't want to dedicate years of their lives with complex and even meaningless mechanical thresholds, especially when I've always viewed such things as against the spirit of Smash.

I can understand this, and I vividly remember feeling similiar back during my casual days (wavedash is weird to look at, no matter how you feel about it from a competitive standpoint). However, this only gives a slippery-slope. If something like Wavedashing is too complex, then what is not "too complex"? Is B-Reversals too complex? Is Wavebouncing too complex? What about DI?

I'm all for getting rid of artificial mechanics like L-Cancel (Va3to is the only poster who gave a good argument for it, but even then I'm not convinced), but there's gotta be a stopping point. Sakurai got rid of a lot of stuff in Brawl and, while the game still worked, it felt very barebones (and slow).

 

[Priap0s]

Now, you could of course just have far less landing lag on attacks by default.

Yeah my bad not mentioning this. Ofcourse I think this should go hand in hand with removing L-cancel.



I just realised that answering to posts in here made me say very off topic things. It is not about what AT's are good or bad. It's about if they affect casual players.
Regarding this I would say that they for sure do. Ofcourse, we would have to discuss all the AT's one by one since there is a vast difference on how each and every one of them affect casuals. My biggest concern that could be applied for every single AT in the game is, make it accesible. And I don't mean particulary easy to do AT's. I mean include the AT's in the games tutorials (as Ive said before, the game really needs more of them. One basic category and one advanced for every trick). Everyone playing should know that they exist!

Now, on to how some affect casual players. Going to use the easiest example and one I'm very sure of myself how it affects people: L-cancel.
If melee would have online play and a casual player got matched up against a very good player (you don't have to be a competetive player to bee good and use AT's. I use them and have never played a tourney in my life). The good player would ofcourse win, no matter if L-cancel was there or not. However he would have a huge advantage just based on something he knew, that wasn't accesible to the casual guy. The good player would do everything faster and the casual would have no idea how this is happening. It would just lead to frustration. It would be "How the fuc can he do this so fast when my char is so slow after landing ect.". Maybe it would be "how the fuc can he survive that hit when I jsut died to that" because he doesn't know of DI.
If things like L-cancel (and DI in this example) was known and in the games turorials / game manual the player might be less frustrated as he understands why he lose and that the opponent is simply better. I personally would have no clue about L-cancel and DI if my friend hadn't told me. After he did and I practised it for a while we where on the same level, before he pretty much won 3/4 games. And yes, that was frustrating that I had been losing all that time just because he knew something I didn't. Wich he found by nerding it up on smashboards wich he then showed to me =)


Tldl: I like most AT's. In particular the ones that give the game alot of depth without being to complex. My opinion is that they have to be easy accesible to find out about so that they give no "unfair" advantage to core gamers that lurk smash boards and such to find out about them.




Of topic since alot of people discuss why some AT's are good or not. Here's my 2 cents:
DI: A great skill! It gives more game depths because you can do it well by reaction or reading what will hit you or how you'll get thrown. It is also easy to perform so has very good pay off depth for very little complexity.

L-cancel: Offers no depth since it is always optimal to do. Would make much more sense to reduce landing lag and remove it. As it is now, very little depth for some complexity.

Wavedash: Don't really have a strong opinion about this one. Personally I don't want to see it again. I always felt like it was a chore I had to do to be able to beat others that do it. Much like snakeing in Mario Kart. Another similarity between the two is that I don't feel like they belong in the game. It doesnt suit the games design. Many feel this gives the game more depth while I think another kind of depth would be found without it (more options doesn't always = more depth. Since often one option will always be the obvious good one). But I wouldn't be very bothered if it came back.

Ps: About people in here saying that AT's should be gone just because they don't want to lose vs pros. I haven't seen a single comment like that in the thread, but if there is just ignore them. That's just stupid and they would lose just as hard, AT's or not.

 

[Renji64]

If only smash 4 could please everyone but the people who enjoyed melee's gameplay were forgotten and betrayed.

 

[Dash000]

Just look at Brawl. The removal of L canceling makes most approaches unsafe and disrupts the very flow of the match. "Oh, you managed to avoid your opponents projectiles and ranged attacks and get in perfect range for a aerial attack while forcing your opponent to shield rather than counter attacking. Good job, you lose."

Now, you could of course just have far less landing lag on attacks by default. Personally, I prefer to have something to train outside of matches. I like to see my characters speed and efficiency rise gradually by my own hand. Some people don't, and want to get right to the decision making part of the game. Neither of these are wrong, but are clearly both better options than just having terrible jumping attacks without any circumvention.

So, L-cancelling should be automatic, so that you can still approach, but casuals can still get decent without having to find everything out online

 

[Dash000]

Bad argument.

We're not complaining about items being in the game. I'm sure everyone can agree that items should stay. We're not trying to force casual players to play with them off and use advanced techniques, and they shouldn't try to force us to play with items on and without advanced techniques. If ATs were to make a return, casual players can play without them ala a good ranking system or, if all else fails, with other casuals on their friends list. Otherwise people who want ATs are forced to play a skill-less, shallow game that's not very fun for them after a while (unless we get another Project M, which could take a long time). In the end, the only people getting excluded are the competitive players.

Would you complain if you couldn't turn items off online? Because when casuals go online, there is usually somebody using ATs that joins within a small amount of time, which the casual can do absolutely nothing to "turn off"

 

[Barbs Jr]

i think we should define AT's first before arguing about them :|
like uh... power/just shielding as apposed to just regular shielding.

the next smash should purposely point out AT's in how-to-play videos, or just flat out have an "Advanced-techniques" video.

That threatens the casual appeal of the game, though.

Let the casuals have their pokeballs and easy to grasp gameplay. If they get beat online and want to do something about it, then they can do a google search. But then, by definition, they are not casual smashers.

I would love to see a ranked matchmaking system where you get matched up with people of similar skill. That way, the argument that casuals will hate going online because they get owned by competitive ATers doesn't even hold up (and I question the validity of that argument in the first place).

The presence of balanced ATs hasn't done anything to lessen the fanbase of any game i've seen in the past. If anything, it ensures a cult following to the game for years and years.

^^ Dash - hence why there needs to be matchmaking. Casuals will get stomped by competitive players, ATs or no. That should be the biggest focus, not whether or not ATs will be in the game (which they should be).

 

[peeup]

You claim it won't do anything to harm the strictly casuals.
Would you still be claiming the same thing if Melee were online-capable, and skilled AT-users started crashing into public online for the sake of demolishing anyone that isn't up to their level, then justifying it by telling them to get better or get out?
Because that's what leaving AT's in Smash 4 would leave room for, and I think we ALL know that it would happen.
There's not excuse for it, not even for "sport" or "fun".
It's literally a gateway for a specific group of higher skilled players to hop into random games and discourage anyone that isn't at their level by repeatedly beating their *** mercilessly into the ground with no regard to the difference in skill levels.
For ****s and giggles.

Dude. Play any online game. Literally any online game from any point in time or of any genre. This happens in every single one of them, regardless of ATs or skill cap or anything else. People who are amazing at the game will always be assholes and take ****s on people who play the game for fun, ATs or no. Removing ATs will not prevent this from happening; it never has before and it never will.

 

[otter]

As far as ATs (and I'm annoyed that airdodging toward the ground is considered advanced, but I'll just go with it) being in the spirit of Smash or not, they always have been to me. Hidden depth is essential, and a common tool in Nintendo games. You reel people in with the one-input special moves and then show them the magic of DI. That world should remain hidden to those who are frightened by it. That's why there is no white flash on successful L-cancel or crowd reaction to a perfect DI. Casual players have to clue that they are not playing the same game is you, and that's a good thing. People seem way too concerned about good and bad players meeting in battle. This will happen very rarely, even online. Anyone will any competitive gaming experinece outside of Smash knows this. If you think that strong players just go around looking for new players to bully while listening to slayer and thinking that every L-cancel they perform increases the chances of their father coming home, then you are just not being reasonable. You cannot maintain a high level without devoting most of your game time to finding the best players possible and grinding.

Competitors don't resent casuals, and casuals don't know about competitors. The people arguing that there should be tutorials for every input in the game are missing the point in my opinion. The following statement has been made alot, but always ignored, so I'll try one more time:

If you are mad about losing but do not want to learn the game, you're not casual, you're just bad.

 

[Barbs Jr]

Again, my biggest issue with Wavedashing is the mechanical portion of it. Don't get me wrong, having more movement options (even if I personally think it just looks weird like every surface of Melee was covered in buttered ice) is a good thing. It's not so good when in a game where the controls are literally as simple as a button or a direction and a button, you have an AT that requires you to short-hop, fast-fall, air-dash into the ground all in the space of a second or less. It seems unnecessarily complex in such a simple game.

That is so far from what a wavedash is.

Regular jump ->airdash into the ground. 2 inputs.

 

[Priap0s]

Dude. Play any online game. Literally any online game from any point in time or of any genre. This happens in every single one of them, regardless of ATs or skill cap or anything else. People who are amazing at the game will always be *******s and take ****s on people who play the game for fun, ATs or no. Removing ATs will not prevent this from happening; it never has before and it never will.

But it will give more people a chance to challenge each other on similar grounds. The point here isn't that someone wants a new player to be able to beat a pro player. The point is that AT's shouldnt discourage casual palyers and make them feel "wtf was that, why doesn't he landlag. How did he survive that hit while I went out by a weaker hit?". I will just be frustrating and hurt the casual scene and to some extent the pro scene, since that originates from the former.

It's all about AT's being easily accesible and for them to give more depth than they make the game complex. The good player will win, always. AT's or not. I think everyone gets that. This is more a game design question imo. It's alot easier for example street fighter, since their crowd is purely fighting game fans and mostly pretty advanced gamers. Smash has those (most of us in here) but also has a huge group of not so hard core gamers. We want the game to be good at making those take the step into being more advanced gamers. Not scare them away. More players will breed more good players eventually. More good players = stronger scene. (the scene that you care about).

 

[Priap0s]

Got the urge to just make a short answer in here for once:
I think that AT's will have some effects on casual and it will frustrate them to lose games online to something they don't know exist. Maybe they could be at the same level as some players that they will just lose to because of AT's that aren't easily accesible to find ouy. However I think the impact of this will eb very minimal and I take for granted that online will have some sort of ranking and options to choose from.



Now, can't someone just make one thread for every AT here in WiiU board. AT's affect everyone but mostly us hard core gamers, so it would be much more interesting to discuss their worht for us. Threads where we discuss if its good or not and if it should be in the next game. That is a far more interesting discusion imo. And in here most people are already discussing that. Just don't clump it together. Impossible to discuss all AT' as "one being".

 

[VA3TO]

But it will give more people a chance to challenge each other on similar grounds. The point here isn't that someone wants a new player to be able to beat a pro player. The point is that AT's shouldnt discourage casual palyers and make them feel "wtf was that, why doesn't he landlag. How did he survive that hit while I went out by a weaker hit?". I will just be frustrating and hurt the casual scene and to some extent the pro scene, since that originates from the former.

It's all about AT's being easily accesible and for them to give more depth than they make the game complex. The good player will win, always. AT's or not. I think everyone gets that. This is more a game design question imo. It's alot easier for example street fighter, since their crowd is purely fighting game fans and mostly pretty advanced gamers. Smash has those (most of us in here) but also has a huge group of not so hard core gamers. We want the game to be good at making those take the step into being more advanced gamers. Not scare them away. More players will breed more good players eventually. More good players = stronger scene. (the scene that you care about).

I think you are trying to protect the innocence a bit too hard here.

What do AT's have to do with anything you just said? Stop giving people excuses to not learn or to be lazy and give them something to aspire to. Yeah they get beat, so what? Let them find out on their own and make them better because of it.

AT's strengthen the game and taking them away is just a detriment any way you look at it.

 

[Priap0s]

I think you are trying to protect the innocence a bit too hard here.

What do AT's have to do with anything you just said? Stop giving people excuses to not learn or to be lazy and give them something to aspire to. Yeah they get beat, so what? Let them find out on their own and make them better because of it.

AT's strengthen the game and taking them away is just a detriment any way you look at it.

Next time will you please read my post before quoting it? It has much to do with how AT's affect casual players. Before reading my post, read this threads title.

Again you say "yeah they get beat, so what?". As Ive said over and over, they would get beat just as much if there was no AT's... That's not my point... Just... Please read my posts before answering

 

[Barbs Jr]

But it will give more people a chance to challenge each other on similar grounds. The point here isn't that someone wants a new player to be able to beat a pro player. The point is that AT's shouldnt discourage casual palyers and make them feel "wtf was that, why doesn't he landlag. How did he survive that hit while I went out by a weaker hit?". I will just be frustrating and hurt the casual scene and to some extent the pro scene, since that originates from the former.

It's all about AT's being easily accesible and for them to give more depth than they make the game complex. The good player will win, always. AT's or not. I think everyone gets that. This is more a game design question imo. It's alot easier for example street fighter, since their crowd is purely fighting game fans and mostly pretty advanced gamers. Smash has those (most of us in here) but also has a huge group of not so hard core gamers. We want the game to be good at making those take the step into being more advanced gamers. Not scare them away. More players will breed more good players eventually. More good players = stronger scene. (the scene that you care about).

No ATs / brawl-like mechanics = scene that no one cares about. Don't believe me? Evo.

 

[Chiroz]

What does it matter if he is not casual, I don't get it? To me it just seems that you're being a smartass when 70% of your reply is dedicated to counter one word from his post and ignore most of the his points. Ogre_Deity_Link 's post makes perfect sense to me, the fact that you think he is just “noob” just shows you don't understand what he is talking about.



I don't think you got his point. He was talking about how some of the ATs feel complicated compared to everything else, it feels like it doesn't belong in the game. That's what I though when I saw ATs, that's what he thought when he saw them, that's what many others thought.

And the fact that you give us “noobs” the most ridiculed definition just shows how you just attack us personally and then pretend you're sorry. I could easily give competitive players very ridiculed and stupid looking definition from what I've seen in this thread, but I'm not going that low.

Every FPS player who starts competition pretty much knows what to expect. There aren't hidden “tools” other than maybe bunnyhopping, but it isn's that game changing mechanic. It doesn't give you that big advantage in most situations. But something like L-cancelling feels really powerful.

The problem here is the lack of information. You can't expect that there are such things that AT when you don't know about them. I think most people expect that smash competition is basically same stuff than normal smash games but overall better players and metagame. Some people get disappointed when they find out it wasn't what they wanted it to be. That's basically it.

I understand what competitive players see in ATs, but you guys keep repeating that everyone who doesn't like ATs is a noob, quitter, dumb, whiner, etc. Because you think like that you keep missing people's points.

It is not the same thing with basketball, or many other games. Everyone who starts basketball and hears the rules already knows everything. He knows that to become better he must become stronger, faster, more accurate and so on. He has probably even seen many top basketball matches before he started playing so he knows what to expect. He's expectations were realistic. That's a different thing. There weren't hidden tools.

I don't think your post made much sense, other than putting words in our mouths and then countering how you think we think to make it look you have a point.

edit: I understand what competitive melee players see in ATs, I can understand the... attraction in them. But could you stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you?

EDIT: I don't want dumbed down game. In fact I haven't even fully decided do I like ATs or not. I'm just trying to show you guys what the problem is, how some people see ATs. But yeah, I think the main problem is the lack of information.


EDIT AGAIN:



This is exactly the reason why I think that there needs to be an advanced tutorial. Even if the casuals or any other non competitive didn't care about them, they know have the right expectations and they know that they exist.

If you read my post you will notice the exact demographic it is targeted against. People who want AT gone just because it is hard to execure/they can't execute it.

You talk about yourself as a casual, you are not, get over it.

The following post is not extrictly targeted towards you, again it is targeted towards most of the people here who call themselves casual in order to make a point.

I use the term noob because I refer to anyone who thinks they are superior to another player yet is bad as a noob. I know there is irony in my words but right now I honestly do not think my style of play is superior to yours, every one can play however they like, my argument is not about that. My argument is about you guys using the word casual to shield yourselves from true debate. You call yourself casual so that you can overcome the real issue without having to face it at all. If you are in this forum you are not a casual, specially if you are discussing intricate game mechanics.

I have been playing online games since I was 7 (I am almost 24 mind you) and I have seen the word noob thrown around at the smallest expense. I on the other hans reserve this word very carefully. I don't use it on someone who is bad at the game, I don't use it for someone who is new at the game either. I use the word to name those players who try to create a toxic atmosphere yet they have no knowledge of what they speak. Someone who tries to bash other player's abou something without actually knowing what it is he is talking about. That is my definition of a noob.

The fact that you can't wavedash or the fact that you play with items does not make you a casual. The fact that you come in this forum, know about this ATs and actually argue against their inclusion means you are a hardcore player with a different mentality.

Now I do not judge anyone's mentality or desired playatyle but what bothers me is that you guys defend your points of view by claiming to want no part of our playstyle yet your views are actually demanding a portion of this playstyle to be removed so that you can have the option to join our playstyle. Hypocrite much?

In my post I said that I would advocate making ATs easier to use and easier to learn. L-Cancel was actually on the game manual. I do not believe ATs need to be complicated and I am against complex inputs, I believe they should be simplified. That is not what you guys are discussing, you are just using the casual barrier again saying it should be taught to casuals. Yes it should, but that is not my argument.

My argument is that wanting ATs to be removed solely because you can't perform them is selfish. Explaining that ATs give Hardcores an unfair advantage over casuals is ridiculous as hardcores won't want to play against spamming casuals and the sole reason they learn these techniques is not to grief on unskilled players but to advance themselves into the next level of players and as such casuals and hardcores will never be playing together except for the occasional online meet up. Claiming that you are a casual and that most casuals can't perform the ATs is idiotic because casuals don't care about these mechanics and the sole fact that you do care means you are not a casual. Saying that a lot of people are casuals that want nothing to do with the competitive play and are put off when they find out there are ATs they can't perform and quit the game is extremely hypocritical. Why quit when you find out the crowd you don't want to join can perform things you don't want to learn? Just keep playing with your crowd, what is there to stop you, why does somethint no one in your crowd cares about or wants to use bothering you? It is either because you do want to play at a higher level or you do care about the mechanics.

Basically my post reflects a question:

If you claim are a casual then why do you care about these mechanics?

If you are afraid of facing us in online then let me remind you that most hardcore players are put off by other playstyles that are not their own and the probability of you running into one of them playing a different style is not that great, and that is assuming there is no ranking or stat record system, which if there was then the probability of you running into a hardcore are close to none.

Basically, why remove something hundreds of thousands like just so that you do not lose once a day (If you run into them at all. I play a lot of online ladders and normally I may play a unskilled player once in my whole game career after I am already settled in at my correct skill level) what may constitute 2-3 minutes of your daily experience, but to them it constitutes their whole gaming experience.

Are you really that selfish? My guess is no, you are not. But what you truly are is a coward and most of you don't want to express your real opinion which is that you want them removed because you want the option to compete against hardcore players yet you feel like the game currently gives them an unfair advantage. If anything an advantage that is gained through practice, hard work and knowledge and is accessible to both players is the most kind of fair advantage there is.

 

[Priap0s]

No ATs / brawl-like mechanics = scene that no one cares about. Don't believe me? Evo.

Reading comprehension please. As you should have seen by my posts I am very much for AT's. In here we discuss how they affect casuals and I ahve explained how they do. I have also have explained that there is an easy solution to this by making them more accesible. And maybe get rid of some that are very complex but give little to zero depth.

And I hardly think I have said anything to promote brawl-like mechanics or the removal of all AT's? I'm a melee player (whom plays some brawl with certain friends, but hate the defensive feel and clunkinesss of the game) and user of these AT's myself. So would be quite contradictory. Even if I have the ability to look at things outside of my own view. Wich you should try. This thread is not "Do you want all AT's to eb in smash4?".

 

[VA3TO]

Next time will you please read my post before quoting it? It has much to do with how AT's affect casual players. Before reading my post, read this threads title.

Again you say "yeah they get beat, so what?". As Ive said over and over, they would get beat just as much if there was no AT's... That's not my point... Just... Please read my posts before answering

I know the threads title because I uhh; created it.

I have read your quote because that's what I wanted to reply to.

They get beat NO MATTER if AT's are in the game so why do they have to be removed? You are fighting a counter intuitive argument here.

 

[Zonderion]

Can we have a vote? Not that it will matter to Sakurai and his team, but I would be interested to see how the majority of SWF account holders feel...

 

[BSP]

I'll just ask again. Do ATs enhance the average player's experience with the game? If not, and the developer's goal isn't to make the game as competitively deep as possible, why bother with putting ATs in the game since a large portion of the game's audience won't care about them?

 

[Priap0s]

I know the threads title because I uhh; created it.

I have read your quote because that's what I wanted to reply to.

They get beat NO MATTER if AT's are in the game so why do they have to be removed? You are fighting a counter intuitive argument here.

I have never ever said that I want them to be removed. So why do you claim I have? =)

I have mentioned that I'd like to see L-cancel go (and landing lag removed/reduced to go with it). Since it gives so very little game depth in exchange for uneccesary complexity. Nothing more. That is for another thread thou, since this is not about what AT's I want for next game or not. It's about how they affect casual palyers.
And Ive sugested that they should be accesible. In turorials in game or in its manual. This is to not make the casuals feel cheated by something they don't know exist (cause they don't know about smash-boards or whatever). Why the **** would I suggest that if I want them removed? "Put them in an advanced tutorial in game, but don't have them usable in the game"....

 

[PHD]

You claim it won't do anything to harm the strictly casuals.
Would you still be claiming the same thing if Melee were online-capable, and skilled AT-users started crashing into public online for the sake of demolishing anyone that isn't up to their level, then justifying it by telling them to get better or get out?
Because that's what leaving AT's in Smash 4 would leave room for, and I think we ALL know that it would happen.

This is going to happen anyway, regardless of what ATs are in the game. ATs don't automatically make someone good, practicing does. The ones who practice will inevitably destroy lesser skilled players online.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Tldl: I like most AT's. In particular the ones that give the game alot of depth without being to complex. My opinion is that they have to be easy accesible to find out about so that they give no "unfair" advantage to core gamers that lurk smash boards and such to find out about them.

I really see no "unfair advantage". It doesn't exist. So what if someone discovers smashboards or some youtube tutorial on how to do advanced techniques? What are the chances of you playing that random person? Everyone plays smash in their own little vaccuum, and I'm guessing if one of your friends figures out a new technique, soon all of you will know how to do it. There is no unfair advantage. If you are aware of the techniques, learn them or don't. It doesn't matter, if you choose not to because you'll probably just continue to play your friends who are at the same skill level as you are. So how is that unfair at all?

A lot of your arguments having to do with pub-stomping in Online Play. Hopefully Smash 4's online is completely random FFA's like Brawl, and there will actually be some sort of ranking or ladder system. This would easily stop casual players from getting matched up with more advanced players and the whole "get good or gtfo" scenario like you suggest would never happen.

I have never ever said that I want them to be removed. So why do you claim I have? =)

I have mentioned that I'd like to see L-cancel go (and landing lag removed/reduced to go with it). Since it gives so very little game depth in exchange for uneccesary complexity. Nothing more.

This is my biggest pet peeve. L-Cancelling allows you to ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO PERFORM COMBOS. "Unnecessary complexity"? It's ONE button, and you have the choice as to whether you want to use your right or left hand to hit it as well!

I don't know where people get this "L-Cancelling adds nothing to the game" theory from. Can you even perform more than 3 hit combo's without L-Cancelling?

Everyone always goes back and forth with the "If you actually READ my blah blah blah" or "did you even read what I blah blah blah", yet I feel as if everything I say is just instantly overlooked aha. Just my feels.

 

[Priap0s]

I really see no "unfair advantage". It doesn't exist. So what if someone discovers smashboards or some youtube tutorial on how to do advanced techniques?
A lot of your arguments having to do with pub-stomping in Online Play. Hopefully Smash 4's online is completely random FFA's like Brawl, and there will actually be some sort of ranking or ladder system.

This is my biggest pet peeve. L-Cancelling allows you to ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO PERFORM COMBOS. "Unnecessary complexity"? It's ONE button, and you have the choice as to whether you want to use your right or left hand to hit it as well!

I don't know where people get this "L-Cancelling adds nothing to the game" theory from. Can you even perform more than 3 hit combo's without L-Cancelling?

I agree, most AT's should be there.
But why don't you think they should be accesible so people won't feel cheated online? By losing to something they have no clue about. All I'm sugesting is to include AT's in the games tutorials or manual. That is my main point I am argueing. Why do you want them to be something hidden instead of something integrated in the game that feels as a big part of it, just as much as using A+forward to perform a smash?
Make them something most people who play the game know about. Then if they master them or use them, up to them. But they won't feel cheated when losing vs somenoe who does. They will see they lose because that someone masters and/or uses the better. Best scenario this will get even more people using them and playing better. A bigger scene of descent players, even thou it might not effect pro's, since there is a huge gap between the two. AT's are a big part of the game, it's only natural that all palyers should be informed of their existence.


Well, to go with my L-cancel argument I mean that it should be automatic. Since it is something you ALWAYS want to do (and it's not hard to do as skill goes), why even have a button for it?

 

[mimgrim]

I think Raykz summed it up nicely. According to his descriptions I would fall under "Expreinced Player" as I have tried to preform ATs and some of them I can do and others I can't no matter how hard I try and I do have a hard time at the technialties aspect of the game. Because of this I ofc naturally prefer Brawl over Melee. But does that mean I think ATs should be taken out? No I do not. I'm fine with ATs as they can add something to the game. Now would I prefer them to be easier to implement? Yes, but that's jsut because I lack in the techicality part. Take for axample Boost Smashing and Item Boosting, for the life of me I cannot preform these ATs yes I am able to preform Pivot Grabs, Reverse Blasters and the like easily enough. Does this mean I want Boost Smash and Item Boost gone? No. Easy to preform? Yes, but it doesn't have to be as I can live without being able to preform them. And his description of "Casual Player" seems pretty acurate and I can vouche for it. For a long time when it came to SSB I WAS a casual player and didn't go online looking stuff up for SSB and didn't know anything about ATs and I doubt I would have cared or even noticed if someone used one against me. But since I have tried getting into competitive play I have learnt what allot of the ATs are and how they are suppose to work, just some of them I am unable to preform while others I can. But to answer the question of wethere or not ATs affect casual players. They don't, as I can personally say that for a long time I WAS a casual player and can peronally say ATs wouldn't have affected me.

 

[Vkrm]

I'll just ask again. Do ATs enhance the average player's experience with the game? If not, and the developer's goal isn't to make the game as competitively deep as possible, why bother with putting ATs in the game since a large portion of the game's audience won't care about them?

Sakurai's style is deep games with simple control schemes. A competitively viable smash game with online would grown the scene immensely, and Nintendo would rake in the dolla doing what capcom does for sf4 by selling balance patches and alternate costumes.

 

[RODO]

I keep thinking of things to add to this so I keep coming back (lol sorry if I'm overdoing it). Think about it like this:

I can't dunk a basketball. Now since some guy I played the other day could and he dunked on me I want dunks out of the game. It's just not fun to be dunked on when I can't do it. How many people do you think would take me seriously? Probably not many people that like basketball would take me seriously and it would probably just seem like I was whining because the guy likely beat me or something. This is what it sounds like to me when people say that AT's are making the game not fun because people who can use them are beating them.

There are other connections you can make here too. For example a dunk is still only 2 points. AT's aren't the end all be all of Smash, and someone who is great at AT's but terrible at fundamentals probably isn't going anywhere. It's not breaking the game really. AT's are certainly much more available to people than dunking a basketball is too.

 

[otter]

I'll just ask again. Do ATs enhance the average player's experience with the game? If not, and the developer's goal isn't to make the game as competitively deep as possible, why bother with putting ATs in the game since a large portion of the game's audience won't care about them?

That's sort of a complicated question. At Melee's launch, maybe 1% percent of the player base's experience was enhanced by ATs. Today, it's 100%. Sure, Nintendo doesn't profit from people still playing the game, but that's their own fault.

Melee at Evo is going to sell thousands of copies of Smash4 to a demographic that Nintendo could never reach alone. Not that ATs are the only reason Melee is superior, but if people got bored of it in six months like most Brawl players did, that could never be a possibility.

 

[RODO]

I'll just ask again. Do ATs enhance the average player's experience with the game? If not, and the developer's goal isn't to make the game as competitively deep as possible, why bother with putting ATs in the game since a large portion of the game's audience won't care about them?

This is a much better question that could be used to make a valid argument. Well done

 

[Priap0s]

I keep thinking of things to add to this so I keep coming back (lol sorry if I'm overdoing it). Think about it like this:

I can't dunk a basketball. Now since some guy I played the other day could and he dunked on me I want dunks out of the game. It's just not fun to be dunked on when I can't do it. How many people do you think would take me seriously? Probably not many people that like basketball would take me seriously and it would probably just seem like I was whining because the guy likely beat me or something. There are other connections you can make here too. For example a dunk is still only 2 points. AT's aren't the end all be all of Smash, and someone who is great at AT's but terrible at fundamentals probably isn't going anywhere. It's not breaking the game really. AT's are certainly much more available to people than dunking a basketball is too.

We are not discussing people in here. Obviously someone on smashboards is not a normal "casual" player... Casual won't know that these things exist and will feel cheated loosing to somenoe that can recover 2x times faster and someone that flies out of the stage alot shorter then them. Even with the exact same characters. So just make remove the AT's that give almost no game depth but makes for alot more complexity. And then have the remaning AT's accesible in form of tutorials or the game's manual so that the casual will know they exist. Then they can choose to use and practie them or not. They will atleast not feel cheated by something "hidden" or similar. Then everything will be peachy, for both us and Casual players!

Maybe even more players will se that the game has depth and go deeper, even join us here on smashboards! =)