How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[SmashCentralOfficial]

I agree, most AT's should be there.
But why don't you think they should be accesible so people won't feel cheated online? By losing to something they have no clue about. All I'm sugesting is to include AT's in the games tutorials or manual. That is my main point I am argueing. Why do you want them to be something hidden instead of something integrated in the game that feels as a big part of it, just as much as using A+forward to perform a smash?
Make them something most people who play the game know about. Then if they master them or use them, up to them. But they won't feel cheated when losing vs somenoe who does. They will see they lose because that someone masters and/or uses the better. Best scenario this will get even more people using them and playing better. A bigger scene of descent players, even thou it might not effect pro's, since there is a huge gap between the two. AT's are a big part of the game, it's only natural that all palyers should be informed of their existence.


Well, to go with my L-cancel argument I mean that it should be automatic. Since it is something you ALWAYS want to do (and it's not hard to do as skill goes), why even have a button for it?

Your logic is so flawed. First of all, no one (not even myself) said that they "should be hidden". Second of all, if you DO NOT KNOW that they exist and someone for example L-Cancel's online, YOU WON'T NOTICE. I highly doubt that if you've never seen L-Cancelling or JumpCancelGrabbing before in your life, you won't notice when someone does it to you online.


Making L-Cancelling automatic is the worst argument I've ever heard. Every characters aerial animation would then be automatically different. The characters are designed the way they are for a reason, even every single frame of their animations is put there for a reason (to make things look fluid and proper).

Casual won't know that these things exist and will feel cheated loosing to somenoe that can recover 2x times faster and someone that flies out of the stage alot shorter then them. Even with the exact same characters. So just make remove the AT's that give almost no game depth but makes for alot more complexity. They will atleast not feel cheated by something "hidden" or similar. Then everything will be peachy, for both us and Casual players!


Maybe even more players will se that the game has a depth and go deeper, even join us here on smashboards! =)

You're contradicting yourself. "Casual won't know that these things exist" ...but then they'll feel cheated when someone uses something they don't know exists against them? The "casual player" won't even recognize the other player is using some technique like lcancelling. You're overexaggerating by saying someone can recover 2x faster. That doesn't happen. Characters don't get some crazy ability boost like Wario's Final Smash or something. It sounds like you yourself a casual player, don't take offence to that.

 

[HeroMystic]

This is my biggest pet peeve. L-Cancelling allows you to ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO PERFORM COMBOS. "Unnecessary complexity"? It's ONE button, and you have the choice as to whether you want to use your right or left hand to hit it as well!

No offense, but you don't seem to understand why L-Cancel is so opposed. Everyone knows why it's good to use (and anyone who doesn't should seriously stop posting in this thread). The actual question is, is that good design? Is it good design to push a button to cancel landing lag all the time in order to combo?

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

No offense, but you don't seem to understand why L-Cancel is so opposed. Everyone knows why it's good to use (and anyone who doesn't should seriously stop posting in this thread). The actual question is, is that good design? Is it good design to push a button to cancel landing lag all the time in order to combo?

Sigh. I understand why it's "opposed". Don't assume things, just like how I'm not assuming that you don't know how l-cancelling actually works.

How is it not good design? Players who play at a higher skill level can perform longer combos by reducing the lag on their aerial's if they can time it correctly.

The actual question is, why are "casual" players or people who just don't want to learn advanced techniques so butt-hurt about them being in the game (Melee/Brawl)? Just like the OP and many other people have said, Advanced Techniques being in the game does not hinder or negatively affect the game experience of the "casual" player, or those players who never discover or learn the techniques.

You're not going to be constantly playing against competitive players who constantly destroy you. You're going to be playing against people of relatively the same skill level, whether it's in person or online.

 

[Barbs Jr]

I agree, most AT's should be there.
But why don't you think they should be accesible so people won't feel cheated online? By losing to something they have no clue about. All I'm sugesting is to include AT's in the games tutorials or manual. That is my main point I am argueing. Why do you want them to be something hidden instead of something integrated in the game that feels as a big part of it, just as much as using A+forward to perform a smash?
Make them something most people who play the game know about. Then if they master them or use them, up to them. But they won't feel cheated when losing vs somenoe who does. They will see they lose because that someone masters and/or uses the better. Best scenario this will get even more people using them and playing better. A bigger scene of descent players, even thou it might not effect pro's, since there is a huge gap between the two. AT's are a big part of the game, it's only natural that all palyers should be informed of their existence.


Well, to go with my L-cancel argument I mean that it should be automatic. Since it is something you ALWAYS want to do (and it's not hard to do as skill goes), why even have a button for it?

And we've already argued that having ATs in the tutorials threatens the casual appeal (aka mass appeal aka $$$$$$$$$$) of the game. We want this game to have as much casual appeal as melee did. But we think that as people as dedicated to this franchise as we are, we deserve a chance for competitive enjoyment as well. With "secret" ATs like WDing, multishining, etc.., casuals can have their cake and competitive players can eat it too.

I like L-cancelling because i like pressing a lot of buttons. Other people think it adds complexity but not depth, and that's true. It's bad game design. It's a mechanic where you have to arbitrarily press it every time. There's no reason to do anything else in that situation, so there's no depth being added.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Huh? I'm certainly positive that LCanceling and most ATs (besides Dash and Wave Dancing) were in the advanced tutorials or manual in Melee...

So anyone has access and knowledge to it. I'm not home at the moment, but I will look for it and link accordingly when I am.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sigh. I understand why it's "opposed". Don't assume things, just like how I'm not assuming that you don't know how l-cancelling actually works.

How is it not good design? Players who play at a higher skill level can perform longer combos by reducing the lag on their aerial's if they can time it correctly.

I'll assume things as I deem fit. I don't mind being corrected.

So competitive players will be able to perform longer combos with consistent use of L-Cancel. That doesn't answer anything though, that just states the benefit for players who constantly have L-Cancel locked into muscle memory. The question is, is it good design? Does it attract or deter players from the game (or in this case, the tournament scene)?

 

[Priap0s]

Your logic is so flawed. First of all, no one (not even myself) said that they "should be hidden". Second of all, if you DO NOT KNOW that they exist and someone for example L-Cancel's online, YOU WON'T NOTICE. I highly doubt that if you've never seen L-Cancelling or JumpCancelGrabbing before in your life, you won't notice when someone does it to you online.


Making L-Cancelling automatic is the worst argument I've ever heard. Every characters aerial animation would then be automatically different. The characters are designed the way they are for a reason, even every single frame of their animations is put there for a reason (to make things look fluid and proper).



You're contradicting yourself. "Casual won't know that these things exist" ...but then they'll feel cheated when someone uses something they don't know exists against them? The "casual player" won't even recognize the other player is using some technique like lcancelling. You're overexaggerating by saying someone can recover 2x faster. That doesn't happen. Characters don't get some crazy ability boost like Wario's Final Smash or something. It sounds like you yourself a casual player, don't take offence to that.

You have a very weird definition of casual. It is not an insult, its just a different way of playing. The "it sounds like you yourself a casual player, don't take offence to that."-card is just dumb. Even if I was, then wouldn't my opinion concernign this be much more valuable than yours? Concernign how it affects casual players. Not participating in tournaments = casual, to you? Or explain to me why you said this?

About it being hidden and easy accesible. You just left the part out so I thought you didn't think this is an important aspect of how AT's will affect casuals. Glad we agreed on that, to me that is the most important thing when it comes to AT's existens. So, my bad of thinking you disagreed when you actually agree!

Again, do not start an argument with "is the worst argument Ive heard". We are trying to discuss, stop being childish. It gives the feeling that you have a closed mind and no matter what anyone would say you would still hold on to your opinion. Now, on to the real subject. If L-canceling was automatic, you don't think that every characters animation would be based around that?... That sounds rather dumb. I thought that was obvious. I just don't see the point of it not being, maybe explain it to me, how you feel, and I might change my mind.

My last point: There was a time when I did not know L-canceling or wavedashing or even DI. You bet it was frustrating seeing myself die to stuff my friend would not die to. You bet it was frustrating how fast he recovered after landing with an aerial while I couldnt. Luckily this was not online. After winning for a good while my friend finaly pitied me and told me about those things. Wavedash is obviously noticable. The others, I think you might be right. I played alot of melee even back then and I notced the differences. But maybe most people wont. Now, this was my argument to why they should be easily accesible, not removed. So why did you argue it when you claim to agree that they should be easy to find out about in game?

 

[Vkrm]

I agree, most AT's should be there.
But why don't you think they should be accesible so people won't feel cheated online? By losing to something they have no clue about.

They're probably going to feel cheated anyway. People in my general friend group know me as that dude who plays smashbros and goes to tournaments. I met up with a few friends who felt the desire to play seriously after seeing the smash 4 trailer, but they insisted we use items. We got together, turned on green shells and motion sensors and I thought they were having fun. It seemed it was going well until I heard the phrase, " oh my ****ing god, this dude just grabs over and over again." I know you personally aren't arguing for their removal, this more for people who are trying to argue that at's discourage players from learning. Only losing discourages players, and there's nothing sakurai can do about that.

 

[Chiroz]

You have a very weird definition of casual. It is not an insult, its just a different way of playing. The "it sounds like you yourself a casual player, don't take offence to that."-card is just dumb. Even if I was, then wouldn't my opinion concernign this be much more valuable than yours? Concernign how it affects casual players. Not participating in tournaments = casual, to you? Or explain to me why you said this?

About it being hidden and easy accesible. You just left the part out so I thought you didn't think this is an important aspect of how AT's will affect casuals. Glad we agreed on that, to me that is the most important thing when it comes to AT's existens. So, my bad of thinking you disagreed when you actually agree!

Again, do not start an argument with "is the worst argument Ive heard". We are trying to discuss, stop being childish. It gives the feeling that you have a closed mind and no matter what anyone would say you would still hold on to your opinion. Now, on to the real subject. If L-canceling was automatic, you don't think that every characters animation would be based around that?... That sounds rather dumb. I thought that was obvious. I just don't see the point of it not being, maybe explain it to me, how you feel, and I might change my mind.

My last point: There was a time when I did not know L-canceling or wavedashing or even DI. You bet it was frustrating seeing myself die to stuff my friend would not die to. You bet it was frustrating how fast he recovered after landing with an aerial while I couldnt. Luckily this was not online. After winning for a good while my friend finaly pitied me and told me about those things. Wavedash is obviously noticable. The others, I think you might be right. I played alot of melee even back then and I notced the differences. But maybe most people wont. Now, this was my argument to why they should be easily accesible, not removed. So why did you argue it when you claim to agree that they should be easy to find out about in game?

DI is highly noticeable and is on the tutorial. L-Cancelling was on the original game's manual and is very highly noticeable in Smash 64. So in these regards both of these are easily accessible and easy to perform. The thing is Melee forgot to mention L-Cancel and the fact that also people are very lazy and don't normally read guides or wait on tutorials, people don't care about that. They will learn by playing, it's the way its always been in most games.

In Melee I only noticed L-Cancel after I tried imitating one of my already hardcore friends and couldn't pull off a simple combo he pulled off every single time consistently because my character just wouldn't jump after landing. But once I tried to imitate my competitive friend in order to learn some character specific combos and sort of get a faster mentality I was admittedly not a casual anymore. I was taking the game more seriously and wanted to improve in order to catch up to my friend's current skill level.

So what I mean is that as soon as I had the desire to become as good as my friend and actually started practicing to beat him, well that was the moment I wasn't a casual anymore.

 

[Chiroz]

They're probably going to feel cheated anyway. People in my general friend group know me as that dude who plays smashbros and goes to tournaments. I met up with a few friends who felt the desire to play seriously after seeing the smash 4 trailer, but they insisted we use items. We got together, turned on green shells and motion sensors and I thought they were having fun. It seemed it was going well until I heard the phrase, " oh my ****ing god, this dude just grabs over and over again." I know you personally aren't arguing for their removal, this more for people who are trying to argue that at's discourage players from learning. Only losing discourages players, and there's nothing sakurai can do about that.

I've heard that exact same phrase before (the grabbing one) when I am playing with casuals. I have also heard a lot "I cannot play with you, you only spam smashes and you keep hitting me with them out of pure luck" to which I respond: "It isn't luck, you keep rolling past me, I know you are going to do it so I charge a smash and hit you out of the roll". They seem to get offended at this, but this was the exact response that was given to me all those years ago, the one that got me to stop rolling and start dash dancing. People have different mentalities, people who complain when they lose will always find something else to complain about.

 

[Priap0s]

The two posts above: Thank you, you both understand. Many seem to think that I wan't to remove AT's juts because I think they do have a, maybe minimal, affect for casuals. That is far from the case. All Im trying to say is that I wan't the AT's to be ver yaccesible and feel like a part of the game, just as much as a roll or a grab feels like a part of the game. Then theyre effects on casuals would be even more minimal, and many would even start to pick up some of them.

Yes it's still true, I personally would prefer no L-cancel (but with it automatic) over having it in again. But that discusion is for a different topic.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The two posts above: Thank you, you both understand. Many seem to think that I wan't to remove AT's juts because I think they do have a, maybe minimal, affect for casuals. That is far from the case. All Im trying to say is that I wan't the AT's to be ver yaccesible and feel like a part of the game, just as much as a roll or a grab feels like a part of the game. Then theyre effects on casuals would be even more minimal, and many would even start to pick up some of them.

Yes it's still true, I personally would prefer no L-cancel (but with it automatic) over having it in again. But that discusion is for a different topic.

I don't understand how the advanced techniques in the games feel out of place. Melee's felt very organic in my opinion, particularly the wavedash since it was just jumping and doing an air dodge. The one notable AT in Brawl that didn't feel organic was the dash attack canceled up smash when you had to hit down on the C-stick while buffering in Up and Z, causing you to slide across the stage stage like a madman (Don't get me wrong, it's cool to do with Link and the dash attack Gatling esc cancel with Falco's dash attack>Usmash combo). ON the smae token, these things seem pretty dope, and hint towards Sakurai perhaps having ideas in the game that weren't finished.

 

[Priap0s]

W

I don't understand how the advanced techniques in the games feel out of place. Melee's felt very organic in my opinion, particularly the wavedash since it was just jumping and doing an air dodge. The one notable AT in Brawl that didn't feel organic was the dash attack canceled up smash when you had to hit down on the C-stick while buffering in Up and Z, causing you to slide across the stage stage like a madman (Don't get me wrong, it's cool to do with Link and the dash attack Gatling esc cancel with Falco's dash attack>Usmash combo). ON the smae token, these things seem pretty dope, and hint towards Sakurai perhaps having ideas in the game that weren't finished.

Well, to me I do agree. But they didn't from the start and I didn't learn them by myself like I did everything else. I like them now (pretty indeferent to wave dash or no wavedash thou), but they by no means feel or atleast felt as crucial part of the game as some other things. Tbh, a wave dash isnt even much harder than to perfrom a fast roll. Its just two buttons plus stick movement. Well maybe a little, but it's not that hard. Smash has always been a kind fighting game for casuals aswell.
I just hope the AT's are implemented well in smash4 , so that people feel it is just as crucial and simple as to use grab from time to time. Cause in all honesty, almost no AT is that hard to perfrom. The more people knowing them and playing to their full potential the better imo. More good competition out there!

 

[Priap0s]

And we've already argued that having ATs in the tutorials threatens the casual appeal (aka mass appeal aka $$$$$$$$$$) of the game. We want this game to have as much casual appeal as melee did. But we think that as people as dedicated to this franchise as we are, we deserve a chance for competitive enjoyment as well. With "secret" ATs like WDing, multishining, etc.., casuals can have their cake and competitive players can eat it too.

I like L-cancelling because i like pressing a lot of buttons. Other people think it adds complexity but not depth, and that's true. It's bad game design. It's a mechanic where you have to arbitrarily press it every time. There's no reason to do anything else in that situation, so there's no depth being added.

Good point. to much in tutorial might be off putting to people. It would have to be done in a nice way, like an advanced tutorial. Even a secret one maybe that would be unlocked after playing x amount of times. I don't know, Im not a game designer. Maybe they rather think "let the casuals play like they do without knowlede of this and that". I would think that would hinder competetive play thou since less people might see the depth of the game. Probably not a big deal thou.

 

[peeup]

From personal experience, this is my belief on whether or not ATs feel out of place in Smash.

Before I could wavedash, I thought it was a dumb looking, weird exploit that didn't fit.

When I got better at it/understood it better, I thought it was a clever way to make use of a core mechanic of the game, an exploit that fit very nicely.


With regards to the talk of whether or not to have an advanced how-to video, I really don't think that's a good idea. The advanced tutorial in Injustice is hugely offputting for somebody who isn't technically aware. If someone gets thrashed online because his opponent had no landing lag from aerials, he can look it up online, read any information that he deems applicable and/or important, and learn what he wants, when he wants. Having an advanced tutorial in a game like Smash that is particularly catered to the casual audience is a really, really awkward idea. Let the people who are curious about advanced information find it out at their own pace, just like everybody on this site did. Let the people who couldn't give two ****s about advanced mechanics and just want to play with their friends do just that.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

I'll assume things as I deem fit. I don't mind being corrected.

So competitive players will be able to perform longer combos with consistent use of L-Cancel. That doesn't answer anything though, that just states the benefit for players who constantly have L-Cancel locked into muscle memory. The question is, is it good design? Does it attract or deter players from the game (or in this case, the tournament scene)?

"Assuming" is a very bad habit. If you don't mind being corrected, I'm also guessing you don't mind looking like an a-hole too, assuming things about people you've never met.

And Yes, it is good design. It DOES attract players to the tournament scene. Why do you think the community was split in half with Brawl's release?

About it being hidden and easy accesible. You just left the part out so I thought you didn't think this is an important aspect of how AT's will affect casuals. Glad we agreed on that, to me that is the most important thing when it comes to AT's existens. So, my bad of thinking you disagreed when you actually agree!

Wow. Pretty much my ENTIRE post was centered around advanced techniques being "hidden". The fact that they are "hidden" is irrelevant. Like I said before, if you play against someone who uses L-Cancelling and the like, and you have no clue they exist, you're not going to realize that the opponent is doing something different.

Once again I'm just going to reference the title of this thread, how do advanced techniques even effect casual players? You're not going to be playing against people who always use them. If you are, you're probably going to tournaments. If you are going to tournaments, you should probably learn to play at the tournament level.

So what I mean is that as soon as I had the desire to become as good as my friend and actually started practicing to beat him, well that was the moment I wasn't a casual anymore.

THIS. If one of your friends learns an Advanced Technique, you're all going to learn it. If you all continue to play the way you always play and never seek out and learn the "hidden" techniques in the game, you'll all remain at the same level. I really don't understand why AT's affect the "casual" smasher. They really don't.

Why should the competitive players suffer by having to play a slow/campy/untechnical game at their fast-paced technical level? By including advanced techniques, both audiences can enjoy the game the way they would like to.

 

[Priap0s]

I like L-cancelling because i like pressing a lot of buttons. Other people think it adds complexity but not depth, and that's true. It's bad game design. It's a mechanic where you have to arbitrarily press it every time. There's no reason to do anything else in that situation, so there's no depth being added.

I understand wher you are coming from. I can also see alot of fighting game players would enjoy the extra button clicking since there isnt that much of it in smash compared to other fighting games. When people argue that it is good for the game in general I just want to ask them one question: If there was an option in the game for every individual player to have automatic l-canceling on or off. Then would you have it off and do it manualy? I think most would agree that they would have it on and that hints at it being bad game design considered. It as you say, add no depth. But I can see your point how, to some, it will create a better feel when playing.

Unfortunantly I think you are a vast minority there and maybe shouldn't be catered to (maybe your muscle memory would just click it anyway . But I get your point!

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

When people argue that it is good for the game in general I just want to ask them one question: If there was an option in the game for every individual player to have automatic l-canceling on or off. Then would you have it off and do it manualy?

You know what? You're 100% right. People only like advanced techniques because they have a fetish for pressing as many buttons as possible when playing a video game. Making an advanced technique automatic immediately contradicts the definition of an Advanced Technique. Do you not see that?

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Try looking at it this way. Imagine a SSBM player that you know is really good, professional or not, just someone who wavedashes and l-cancels and the like. Now imaging playing a match with them where they weren't allowed to l-cancel or anything like that. If you're being honest with yourself, nine times out of ten they're probably still going to beat you. It's not the fact that they can press L or R at the right time that makes them better. It's their knowledge of the characters, the matchups, move priority, spacing, edgeguarding, etc. which makes them the superior player. Removing advanced techniques will not lessen the gap between competitive and casual players whatsoever. Skill level isn't determined by how fast you can press the buttons, it's determined by a plethora of factors like a mentioned above.

 

[Chiroz]

You know what? You're 100% right. People only like advanced techniques because they have a fetish for pressing as many buttons as possible when playing a video game. Making an advanced technique automatic immediately contradicts the definition of an Advanced Technique. Do you not see that?

Don't speak on behalf of the whole community.

What I like about ATs is the depth they bring and the options they open, I could care less how many buttons I press. Obviously if wavedash was made into a single button press and called "Trotting" it would probably not be called an advanced technique anymore and would just be called a technique (sort of like Rolling or Air Dodging). But not everyone is an advocate of complex inputs.

 

[Priap0s]

You know what? You're 100% right. People only like advanced techniques because they have a fetish for pressing as many buttons as possible when playing a video game. Making an advanced technique automatic immediately contradicts the definition of an Advanced Technique. Do you not see that?

Are you really this narrow minded? Please have an open mind, or it is no point discussing with you at all. You are just always going to be right, no matter what anyone says...

L-cancel is ALWAYS optimal to do. Other AT's give depth and options to use. You always want to L-cancel, always. Therefor having it automatic would just make sense game design wise. I don't care that you feel like it's always been there and so on. Now please tell me why it's a good thing, instead of just saying "you are wrong" and putting words in my mouth that I havent said. Claiming that I have said "people only like AT's because they like pushing alot of buttons" is just dumb and you know its not true. Or you need to read my post again. So please stop arguing like that.

Bringing up it being called Advanced technique and that it would be dumb to have it automatic because of that is just dumb.... If it was automatic it wouldn't be an AT anymore. And honestly, do you really think it is an Adcanced Technique rithgt now? The word advanced is a bit misued for AT's yes, but thats what everyone call them so lets not get into semantics.

ps: if your other post was also directed to me you should know that I do not want to remove any AT except L-cancel. And I have stated many times that a good player would beat a mediocre player every day, AT's or no AT's. If youve read my posts you know that. Tbh, I have barely seen anyone that really wants to remove every AT in here. So I dont get why so many post in here to defend AT like you did? Maybe Ive missed some post, havent followe the thread from start!

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Don't speak on behalf of the whole community.

I was being EXTREMELY sarcastic. -__-

Are you really this narrow minded? Please have an open mind, or it is no point discussing with you at all.

I'm done with this thread, it's as if you think you run things in here or something. You're being blind and stubborn. If anyone is narrow minded it's you. Considering you joined this site less than half a year ago and only have a handful of posts, you shouldn't really be pointing fingers, calling names, or assuming you're more educated on these topics than others. Last time I checked this wasn't the "Should L-Cancelling should be removed in Smash 4?" thread, but rather the "why the hell do casual players even care about advanced techniques?" thread.

Advanced Techniques are a great addition to any fighting game. The people that use them aren't "HURR DURR WERE SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU LOLOLOLOL". It's more like "Whoa, this game is so much faster and I can do so many cool new combo's now". It's not about getting enjoyment out of pressing 2489692386 buttons.

Have you ever played Street Fighter 4? Have you ever tried Focus Attack Dash Cancelling an EX-move into an Ultra? Now THAT is a extremely hard advanced technique to master. Smash Bros has nothing that complex, nor will it ever.

 

[Zzuxon]

Not at all. We scrubs don't pay enough attention to understand obscure concepts like gravity or momentum.

 

[Vkrm]

L cancel being the optimal way to end an aerial doesn't mean it can add decision making elements to the game. You always want to l cancel the same way you always want to tipper marths fsmash. I personally find the the adjustments the marth has to make to get the tipper (di and spacing reads) require enough mental effort for me to want them around. Still, I could give or take Lcancelling. It definitely is not particularly good when compared to other AT's in melee.

 

[Priap0s]

I'm done with this thread, it's as if you think you run things in here or something. You're being blind and stubborn. If anyone is narrow minded it's you. Considering you joined this site less than half a year ago and only have a handful of posts, you shouldn't really be pointing fingers, calling names, or assuming you're more educated on these topics than others.

Advanced Techniques are a great addition to any fighting game. The people that use them aren't "HURR DURR WERE SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU LOLOLOLOL". It's more like "Whoa, this game is so much faster and I can do so many cool new combo's now". It's not about getting enjoyment out of pressing 2489692386 buttons.

Have you ever played Street Fighter 4? Have you ever tried Focus Attack Dash Cancelling an EX-move into an Ultra? Now THAT is a extremely hard advanced technique to master. Smash Bros has nothing that complex, nor will it ever.

So when it gets hard you refuse to answer? Great arguing techniques. One could think you have been taught by the grand master Bill O'Riley himself.


* I call names you say. Please evaluete? I might have been abit upset when you tried to put words in my mouth, but that is only natural. Considering how childish and cheap that was of you.

* And I see you brought up how long Ive been a member here an actively contributing. What does that have to do with the discussion again? Sure Ive been lurking and not contributing. Bad of me yes but I dont see how it effects our discussion?

* You claim I behave like I run things around here "or something". All Im doing is discussing and expressing my personal opinions. Evaluate what you mean with this attack?

* Again you say that AT's are a great addition to fighting games and that people dont use them to go "hurr durr we are better.....". Yes, whats your point? I do as said, agree that they are good and can give the game alot of depht. More depth is good. I agree with you on this, stop trying to make it sound like I don't.

*You bring up Street Figher and end with "smash bros has nothing complex, noe will it ever". I stated just some post ago how calling them advanced technique is missleading and none of them are actually hard to do. So what is your point here again? And what does it have to do with what we are discussing again? L-canceling is super easy but who cares. I have said why I think it should be automatic, and it has nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to do.

So now, pls man up and answer. Don't try to put words in my mouth and try to ridicule me, then get pushed up in a corner and just run away. If you do that I would say you have nothing to do in a thread that is for discussion. Yes, you rile me up with your childish methods, putting words in my mouth and avoiding to answer what I say. So I appologise if Ive gone to far somewhere. Just answer and be serious this time, or I take it you have nothing to say and admit defeat in what you think is a battle, not a discussion where we both can learn. (hint, it isnt. It is to grow and maybe change opinions. I for one have been convinced that maybe a tutorial on AT's wouldnt be a good thing as I first though. It might juts make the game feel to complex and heavy for newcomers).

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Instead of going in circles regurgitating the same lines over and over again (the irony of this post), I'm going to quote myself to hopefully redirect this conversation back to the initial topic of the thread: How do AT's affect Casual Players?

Try looking at it this way. Imagine a SSBM player that you know is really good, professional or not, just someone who wavedashes and l-cancels and the like. Now imaging playing a match with them where they weren't allowed to l-cancel or anything like that. If you're being honest with yourself, nine times out of ten they're probably still going to beat you. It's not the fact that they can press L or R at the right time that makes them better. It's their knowledge of the characters, the matchups, move priority, spacing, edgeguarding, etc. which makes them the superior player. Removing advanced techniques will not lessen the gap between competitive and casual players whatsoever. Skill level isn't determined by how fast you can press the buttons, it's determined by a plethora of factors like a mentioned above.

 

[smashbrolink]

Dude. Play any online game. Literally any online game from any point in time or of any genre. This happens in every single one of them, regardless of ATs or skill cap or anything else. People who are amazing at the game will always be *******s and take ****s on people who play the game for fun, ATs or no. Removing ATs will not prevent this from happening; it never has before and it never will.

Removing AT's takes away an important tool that allows them to do that in an easier fashion, though.
We should be going for any attempt to make this game more accessible so long as it doesn't sacrifice speed or introduce things like tripping.
Smash 4 doesn't look like it'll be bringing back AT's, and it's already looking far more competitive-friendly than Brawl ever was.

 

[smashbrolink]

No ATs / brawl-like mechanics = scene that no one cares about. Don't believe me? Evo.

Less floatiness+No Tripping+higher speed = competitive even without AT's, so Evo won't likely be dismissing Smash 4.

 

[peeup]

Removing AT's takes away an important tool that allows them to do that in an easier fashion, though.
We should be going for any attempt to make this game more accessible so long as it doesn't sacrifice speed or introduce things like tripping.
Smash 4 doesn't look like it'll be bringing back AT's, and it's already looking far more competitive-friendly than Brawl ever was.

Losing ATs like L-Canceling and wavedashing both sacrifice speed. That's partly what ATs do. They increase the speed of the game.

 

[smashbrolink]

This is going to happen anyway, regardless of what ATs are in the game. ATs don't automatically make someone good, practicing does. The ones who practice will inevitably destroy lesser skilled players online.

The more complicated AT's only widen that gap, though, and they only add value to the people who want to reach those utmost heights, at the expense of the players who don't know about them that they use said techniques on.

 

[smashbrolink]

Losing ATs like L-Canceling and wavedashing both sacrifice speed. That's partly what ATs do. They increase the speed of the game.

Doesn't look that way to me from the vids of Smash 4 I've seen so far.
There's still plenty of speed left in the game; it's been fine-tuned to have decent speed even without the techs.

 

[Priap0s]

Instead of going in circles regurgitating the same lines over and over again (the irony of this post), I'm going to quote myself to hopefully redirect this conversation back to the initial topic of the thread: How do AT's affect Casual Players?

Could you just answer the list of points I did instead? It seems like you are just avoiding them. Answer them one by one please so I can understand it. You claim to go in circles regurgitating the same lines, but to be completly honest. I haven't seen you answer a single one of them. So just answer my list one by one and I promise I wont bother you again. Okey?

Also I do not appreciate you sending me private messages instead of answering on what I debate. Why can''t you jsut type them here? Let me help you:
"You literally sound like a 12 year old or something. Work on your grammar and spelling a bit before trying to sound intelligent."
"What are you 14 years old or something? Your posts reek with a lack of maturity"
"it really seems like you think you're some master debater"
"Maybe instead of stroking your forum hard on" (I dont even know what this means)


Sorry that english isn't my native language. You also write "your illogical points" many times to me. Isn't it a better way to prove my points wrong, by answergin them? Giving your view on why they are wrong and so on. You seem to be in the mindset that you are arguing me and its a battle that you most win. What it really should be, is my arguments vs yours. And anyone can be the winner.

 

[HeroMystic]

"Assuming" is a very bad habit. If you don't mind being corrected, I'm also guessing you don't mind looking like an a-hole too, assuming things about people you've never met.

And Yes, it is good design. It DOES attract players to the tournament scene. Why do you think the community was split in half with Brawl's release?

Of course I don't mind looking like an asshole. I go into asshole mode whenever people bring in bad arguments.

You once again did not answer my question. I am not talking about ATs in general, I am talking about L-Cancel.

The community was divided (not split in half) because Brawl was a slow floaty game with broken physics and people were constantly ******** about Snake's F-tilt and U-tilt. Funnily enough, the use of ATs itself was hardly the focus of the debate.

Now I know it's hard, but try again. Is L-Cancel good game design?

 

[Zzuxon]

Now I know it's hard, but try again. Is L-Cancel good game design?

I don't think so. I'm a casual guy, but from my understanding there is no reason ever to not l-cancel. It should be automatic ad it doesn't add depth.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Also I do not appreciate you sending me private messages instead of answering on what I debate. Why can''t you jsut type them here?

I sent you private messages because a personal debate is not relevant to a public thread. This is just forum etiquette.

Is L-Cancel good game design?

How is it not good design? Players who play at a higher skill level can perform longer combos by reducing the lag on their aerial's if they can time it correctly.

The actual question is, why are "casual" players or people who just don't want to learn advanced techniques so butt-hurt about them being in the game (Melee/Brawl)? Just like the OP and many other people have said, Advanced Techniques being in the game does not hinder or negatively affect the game experience of the "casual" player, or those players who never discover or learn the techniques.

You're not going to be constantly playing against competitive players who constantly destroy you. You're going to be playing against people of relatively the same skill level, whether it's in person or online.

--

I don't think so. I'm a casual guy, but from my understanding there is no reason ever to not l-cancel. It should be automatic ad it doesn't add depth.

You're correct about there never being a reason to not L-Cancel, however, it does add depth. It a tournament setting, players who are consistent with their L-Cancel's will most likely perform better than those who aren't. It allows for faster movements (shielding, jabs, etc.) and longer, actually possible, combos.

 

[Priap0s]

Of course I don't mind looking like an *******. I go into ******* mode whenever people bring in bad arguments.

You once again did not answer my question. I am not talking about ATs in general, I am talking about L-Cancel.

The community was divided (not split in half) because Brawl was a slow floaty game with broken physics and people were constantly *****ing about Snake's F-tilt and U-tilt. Funnily enough, the use of ATs itself was hardly the focus of the debate.

Now I know it's hard, but try again. Is L-Cancel good game design?

Give up on this guy. He refuses to adress any good point you make. Then resort to attack you personally, in my case, my english. Starts sending you private messages. He does not wan't to hear other peoples views or discuss anything. He just want to say his views and they are right. No matter what anyone says.

Im sorry SUP3RCANS1R, but I just got tired of your **** and attitude. Make a real answer to our post if you want to be taken seriously again.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

All of my posts have provided logical, concrete evidence as to why advanced techniques, more specifically L-Cancelling, add depth to the game. I've also elaborated numerous times on how advanced techniques do not negatively affect the casual smash player in any way whatsoever.

I've also AGREED that it would be a good idea to have in game videos/tutorials on how to perform these techniques.

 

[nessokman]

ATs and such do indeed affect casuals.Sakurai does intend for the player to play this game online, or there wouldn't be an option for it. If someone can do all these techniques and exploit physics, then casuals don't stand a chance, and getting ***** every round not only tears your self esteem apart, but ruins the experience. That causes people to just give up.


He wants the game to last long, if brawl didn't have s**t online, casuals would have played more. I never had any trouble with lag, and played hundreds of hours online enjoying myself casually.



The people who become godly good at the game make it hard for people who get the game later, and casuals looking for fun to enjoy the online.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

ATs and such do indeed affect casuals.Sakurai does intend for the player to play this game online, or there wouldn't be an option for it. If someone can do all these techniques and exploit physics, then casuals don't stand a chance, and getting ***** every round not only tears your self esteem apart, but ruins the experience. That causes people to just give up.


He wants the game to last long, if brawl didn't have s**t online, casuals would have played more. I never had any trouble with lag, and played hundreds of hours online enjoying myself casually.



The people who become godly good at the game make it hard for people who get the game later, and casuals looking for fun to enjoy the online.

Hopefully this time around it won't just be random Free For All matches. Even if it is, competitive players will not be playing Smash 4's online. If Brawl didn't have such poor online play like you said, competitive/advanced smash players would have played it as well.

If there is a ranking/ladder system however, the casual smashers will probably never face off against high level players, and therefore will never suffer from the negative consequences you mention.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Try looking at it this way. Imagine a SSBM player that you know is really good, professional or not, just someone who wavedashes and l-cancels and the like. Now imaging playing a match with them where they weren't allowed to l-cancel or anything like that. If you're being honest with yourself, nine times out of ten they're probably still going to beat you. It's not the fact that they can press L or R at the right time that makes them better. It's their knowledge of the characters, the matchups, move priority, spacing, edgeguarding, etc. which makes them the superior player. Removing advanced techniques will not lessen the gap between competitive and casual players whatsoever. Skill level isn't determined by how fast you can press the buttons, it's determined by a plethora of factors like a mentioned above.

By that rate, I'm actually pretty damned good. The way some people seem to talk, it seems like ATs make the player though.