How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[VA3TO]

And @VA3TO. With making L-cancel automatic appropiet game changes would of course come with it if needed. I think having something that contributes nothing more than making stuff harder to perform is bad design for a game like smash. Where do we stop? Want to make every move in the game more complex? I'd rather see focus of skill being directed at different things like positioning, game depth, reading your opponent and being creative. Thats my point of view, you want the game to be harder for bad people (thats what it adds. It adds nothing for pros since it's easy to do and you never ahve to do descision or think about it. You should just always do it) and thats fine. I think we just have a different view of what smash is. Agree to disagree.
Peace out "How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?"-Thread.

You kind of contradicted yourself here a bit.

If its simple to do why does is it make the game more complex?

L cancelling takes the whole of... 30 minutes to understand and get fairly decent at. To me it's a nice way to ease people into a competitive setting without having to learn techniques link P-linking (SF Term) or learning each characters safest options. Just 1 old button press opens up a whole load of options BUT if failed can cause your opponent to get a devastating punish on you. L cancelling was in 64, nobody complained. L cancelling in Melee? "OH MY GOD REMOVE IT, IT'S TOO DIFFICULT!".

Where is the logic?

 

[Priap0s]

I really dont think I do. Something that is easy to do can still give some complexity. That something adds complexity does not have to mean its hard. And the "remove cause its hard"-argument is really dumb, agreed. Its super simple and after a short while a nuisance you just do. But is anyone even saying that? I for sure am not, so dont hold that against me pls.
I dont understand your melee vs n64 analogy or how its relevant, sorry. I dont think l-cancel is somwthig horrible that destroys the game, I just think ts unnecesary nd would be better of removed. Game design Wise. Thats all. Im not arguing for my own sake, personally I dont care. I was just generalising what is best for the game. Not my wish, just My opinion, nothing else.
Oh, good point on easing in people to competetive play with an easy thing btw. I guess that it Can give a feel of the games depth, even if it gives none in itself, in a. Easy way. Good point.

Bah, I wanted to stop posting here and will Do now. Just needed to say that I absolutely did not contradict myself. Now lets just agree to dissagree

 

[Diddy Kong]

I haven't reach much of this thread but, Melee's Advanced Techniques >>> Brawl's Items.

 

[Spin3no]

Can someone please tell me the advanced techs of melee compared to brawl other than wave dashing.. Tell me something harder than dacus .. B reversal footstooling platform canceling.. What does melee have?

For casual players it doesn't matter because they most likely don't know about these techs.

 

[Dash000]

That threatens the casual appeal of the game, though.

Let the casuals have their pokeballs and easy to grasp gameplay. If they get beat online and want to do something about it, then they can do a google search. But then, by definition, they are not casual smashers.

I would love to see a ranked matchmaking system where you get matched up with people of similar skill. That way, the argument that casuals will hate going online because they get owned by competitive ATers doesn't even hold up (and I question the validity of that argument in the first place).

The presence of balanced ATs hasn't done anything to lessen the fanbase of any game i've seen in the past. If anything, it ensures a cult following to the game for years and years.

^^ Dash - hence why there needs to be matchmaking. Casuals will get stomped by competitive players, ATs or no. That should be the biggest focus, not whether or not ATs will be in the game (which they should be).

I agree, it would be nice to have matchmaking. If a competetive player wants to play online randoms, they should be able to without having to be stuck in a taunt party, or disrupting a casual match. And, casuals shouldn't have to end up in a room with 3 competitive players that know ATs and whatnot.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Can someone please tell me the advanced techs of melee compared to brawl other than wave dashing.. Tell me something harder than dacus .. B reversal footstooling platform canceling.. What does melee have?

For casual players it doesn't matter because they most likely don't know about these techs.

Here you go my friend!

Could someone explain the "L-Cancelling doesn't add 'Depth' " argument? What is the definition of "depth" in this case?

In a literal sense, something that adds "depth" to a game would be something that enables you to play a different way, or even a more "advanced" way. So if one plays Smash Bros. without L-Cancelling for an extended period of time, they will soon reach a "plateau" where they cease to discover new techniques and strategies and whatnot. Sure one can argue that the player might continue to learn new things occasionally from time to time, but where is the "depth"? How would this player ever achieve a "deeper" experience than they already have?

L-Cancelling (and other advanced techniques) are THE definition of "adding depth".

Being able to perform combo's you couldn't before is "adding depth". Being able to move your characters faster than you could before is "adding depth".

Anything that allows you to experience the game in a different way is literally the definition of "adding depth". People need to stop using terms that they themselves do not understand.

 

[Spin3no]

Here you go my friend!

Could someone explain the "L-Cancelling doesn't add 'Depth' " argument? What is the definition of "depth" in this case?

In a literal sense, something that adds "depth" to a game would be something that enables you to play a different way, or even a more "advanced" way. So if one plays Smash Bros. without L-Cancelling for an extended period of time, they will soon reach a "plateau" where they cease to discover new techniques and strategies and whatnot. Sure one can argue that the player might continue to learn new things occasionally from time to time, but where is the "depth"? How would this player ever achieve a "deeper" experience than they already have?

L-Cancelling (and other advanced techniques) are THE definition of "adding depth".

Being able to perform combo's you couldn't before is "adding depth". Being able to move your characters faster than you could before is "adding depth".

Anything that allows you to experience the game in a different way is literally the definition of "adding depth". People need to stop using terms that they themselves do not understand.

I never thought that L canceling was useless. It is the same concept for platform canceling. I just don't know why some people say there are no tech in brawl compared to melee.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

I never thought that L canceling was useless. It is the same concept for platform canceling. I just don't know why some people say there are no tech in brawl compared to melee.

I agree (and my post was targeted towards anyone and everyone, not you), there are tons of little advanced techniques in Brawl.

Do people get stomped online in Brawl by advanced players using these techniques? Nope.

 

[BSP]

I beg to differ

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

LOL. Well my logic is that Brawl's online is so bad, nobody really plays it - casual or competitive.

(the "With Anyone" mode)

 

[Spin3no]

LOL. Well my logic is that Brawl's online is so bad, nobody really plays it - casual or competitive.

(the "With Anyone" mode)

Haha To be fair If they made a melee 2.0 you wouldn't be able to L cancel either....

To be honest I do not care about brawl or melee anymore. All about the wiiU smash.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Precisely! I'm a big fan of SSBM and now Project: M. Everything I said in that post was from close to 100 posts ago, but was grossly overlooked.

I'm hoping that Smash 4's wifi will implement some sort of 1v1 system like Playstation All Star's has. From what I've read on SWF, even the casual smashers hated Brawl's FFA online matches. With a ranking/ladder system, once again the two audiences will have separate pools of opponents to play from based on their skill level, and everyone will be happy.

Oh god PSASBR...

The 1v1 system I admit was kinda nice, invite a friend, set the rules and go. Seriously easy to do and intuitive. As long as they avoid the horrible style of ranking system and a ton of other online crap PSAS had, they should be alright.

 

[otter]

I'll play the devil's advocate here and be anti-AT regarding L-canceling because it's going over some people's heads.

It does not add depth because it is ALWAYS a good idea. You never have to decide whether this is a good time to L cancel or not. Any opportunity you have to do it, it will net a huge reward if you succeed. You are just holding this reward in front of the player and telling them to jump through hoops (albeit large, greased up, easily reached hoops) to get it.

This is different than say, wavedashing, which is a decision making tool. It helps you get from point A to point B faster, but doesn't help you decide if point B is a better place to be or not. That's the key difference.

 

[Strong Badam]

l-canceling sucks, awful mechanic. nb4 someone goes "well it's better than aerials having tons of lag!" and completely missing the point.

 

[Vkrm]

I'll play the devil's advocate here and be anti-AT regarding L-canceling because it's going over some people's heads.

It does not add depth because it is ALWAYS a good idea. You never have to decide whether this is a good time to L cancel or not. Any opportunity you have to do it, it will net a huge reward if you succeed. You are just holding this reward in front of the player and telling them to jump through hoops (albeit large, greased up, easily reached hoops) to get it.

L cancel being the optimal way to end an aerial doesn't mean it can add decision making elements to the game. You always want to l cancel the same way you always want to tipper marths fsmash. I personally find the the adjustments the marth has to make to get the tipper (di and spacing reads) require enough mental effort for me to want them around. Still, I could give or take Lcancelling. It definitely is not particularly good when compared to other AT's in melee.

I see Lcancel as feat of execution instead of a decision between weather or not I want landing lag.

 

[BSP]

LOL. Well my logic is that Brawl's online is so bad, nobody really plays it - casual or competitive.

(the "With Anyone" mode)

I screw around on "With Anyone" sometimes. It's fun if you like 1 vs 3 matches.

 

[otter]

I see Lcancel as feat of execution instead of a decision between weather or not I want landing lag.

Agreed, but It's less ignorant to say you don't want feats of execution in the game rather than ATs all together.

 

[Vkrm]

Agreed, but It's less ignorant to say you don't want feats of execution in the game rather than ATs all together.

I feel like they both have their place in fighting games, but I can see why not everybody wants that kind of thing.

 

[Big-Cat]

I feel like they both have their place in fighting games, but I can see why not everybody wants that kind of thing.

The whole execution aspect has to be done very carefully. Remember that Tekken video I posted? That was an example of a high level mixture of execution and strategy - though a real match would likely not have her dancing so much around the opponent. This is the kind of thing where execution complements the options.

As I've said before, I feel L-Canceling does not accomplish this. With all those airbending moves Xiaoyu has, there are times you will want to move left, right, counter, etc. so no decision is automatic as a result of this. L-Canceling might as well be automatic from a strictly strategical standpoint as there is rarely a benefit for not L-Canceling. If you want to do things like disrupting the rhythm of the opponent, there are things like slightly delaying an attack after L-Canceling. At least in this scenario, you also have the option to just shield in anticipation.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

l-canceling sucks, awful mechanic. nb4 someone goes "well it's better than aerials having tons of lag!" and completely missing the point.

LOL Clearly you've missed the entire point and haven't read anything in this thread before posting.

 

[Strong Badam]

i responded to the person above me. is there a problem with that?

 

[peeup]

Well, frankly, yeah, it doesn't contribute at all to the thread. But I can't really throw stones cause that's what I'm doing right now =)

I think I'm done with this thread, everything that can be discussed already has been, and nobody in either camp will concede.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

i responded to the person above me. is there a problem with that?

The problem really, is this:

I think I'm done with this thread, everything that can be discussed already has been, and nobody in either camp will concede.

Every argument against L-Cancelling and Advanced Techniques in general has been refuted and beaten. It seems like the arguments were:
1. Online Play - casual smashers will get beat by advanced techniques and be upset
2. They don't "add depth" - some might go as far as to say they're not very useful or useless, even. "Is it good design?"
3. They are "hidden" in the game, away from the general public's knowledge

I can go back and copy and paste if need be, because like I said, these have all been beaten. It sucks that the existence of advanced techniques rustles some peoples jimmies, but in all honesty, you don't have to play against anyone you don't want to play against.

 

[azzucips]

Can someone please tell me the advanced techs of melee compared to brawl other than wave dashing.. Tell me something harder than dacus .. B reversal footstooling platform canceling.. What does melee have?

For casual players it doesn't matter because they most likely don't know about these techs.

I mean, there's not one technique that may be harder than the one technique for which you asked, but movement in general in Melee links everything together, and using everything makes it harder to maneuver your character.

So maybe you'd dashdance, commit to a direction, wavedash to change directions for another dash, jump to waveland on a platform, dash and fall off the platform into a fast fall, waveland and dash again...This is just jumping around a stage.

You need to use everything to get the most out of your characters.

I also realize this is sort of an empty answer, but I do want to stress that it's hard to move your character everywhere you want to, and in the blink of an eye too

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I agree (and my post was targeted towards anyone and everyone, not you), there are tons of little advanced techniques in Brawl.

Do people get stomped online in Brawl by advanced players using these techniques? Nope.

Lol yeah they do. The dash cancel up smash for snake, versus a snake who doesn't know how to do it, will be a 3 stock everytime. I'd also money match any snake in the world if he promises not to use that dash cancel against my Peach and be confident I wouldn't lose to any. Makes a world of difference.

 

[eshu125]

Didn't even get through page 2, but the whole matchmaking argument is void. Yes, it'd be possible. But like smashbrolink stated, I doubt Nintendo could do that well. And even if they could, Sakurai already stated he doesn't want a ranking system. So there goes that idea. So now, once again, as it was being stated, casuals don't care about techs or tier lists, but they care about having fun. Believe it or not, getting stomped by things they've never seen is not fun at all for casuals. They don't strive to get better; they strive to win and feel good about themselves. There needs to be sense of accomplishment, and straight up getting ***** online won't give a casual player that.

The game doesn't need wavedashing and whatever the hell makes melee unique from the other smashes. Believe it or not, even with the amount of people that still play melee competitively, it's nothing compared to the amount of people that own Brawlor its predecessor. More than anything, I want smash 4 to be completely unique and different from the others. If you want to wave dash and such, you already have a game to do that.

 

[VA3TO]

Didn't even get through page 2, but the whole matchmaking argument is void. Yes, it'd be possible. But like smashbrolink stated, I doubt Nintendo could do that well. And even if they could, Sakurai already stated he doesn't want a ranking system. So there goes that idea. So now, once again, as it was being stated, casuals don't care about techs or tier lists, but they care about having fun. Believe it or not, getting stomped by things they've never seen is not fun at all for casuals. They don't strive to get better; they strive to win and feel good about themselves. There needs to be sense of accomplishment, and straight up getting ***** online won't give a casual player that.

The game doesn't need wavedashing and whatever the hell makes melee unique from the other smashes. Believe it or not, even with the amount of people that still play melee competitively, it's nothing compared to the amount of people that own Brawlor its predecessor. More than anything, I want smash 4 to be completely unique and different from the others. If you want to wave dash and such, you already have a game to do that.

There doesn't even have to be a "Ranked Matchmaking" in order to counter everything you just said. Just "Free for All" and "Advanced play", neither has to be ranked and you know exactly what you are getting into right at the get go. So there your argument is void. I would love to get my ass kicked by a guy who was playing the game at its best, that **** is exciting. I don't know how many butt hurt little people you know but they need to get a grip. Well I want this Smash to be like Melee, you had Brawl why can't you play that game?

 

[peeup]

...

Agreed on all counts. Though I'm sure that everybody from the other camp has their own set of points that we have laid out that they have refuted multiple times. Everything from this point is just circular argument, and I dont' want to be the asshole that doesn't listen to the other side anymore.

 

[Barbs Jr]

There doesn't even have to be a "Ranked Matchmaking" in order to counter everything you just said. Just "Free for All" and "Advanced play", neither has to be ranked and you know exactly what you are getting into right at the get go. So there your argument is void. I would love to get my *** kicked by a guy who was playing the game at its best, that **** is exciting. I don't know how many butt hurt little people you know but they need to get a grip. Well I want this Smash to be like Melee, you had Brawl why can't you play that game?

Agreed. We aren't saying we want another melee. We just want a game that is as good as melee. Objectively, brawl is not as good as melee. Including ATs is a step in the right direction for all of the reasons that the smart people in this thread have said.

 

[Kamiko]

I would love to know why some people seem to think that being able to pull off Melee's ATs is actually an indication of skill. Because they're really not that hard.

 

[Barbs Jr]

I would love to know why some people seem to think that being able to pull off Melee's ATs is actually an indication of skill. Because they're really not that hard.

No one said being able to pull of melee ATs is an indication of skill. Winning games is the only indication of skill (with flashiness being a separate side consideration). Being able to pull off ATs in the proper situations helps you win games. In that way, by proxy it is an indication of skill. But no one's impressing anyone by wavedashing around a stage in training mode and no one here said they were.

 

[Kamiko]

I occasionally see some people basically treat it like some kind of indicator of high-level play, separating casual and competitve players. There was more of it going on the last time I posted in here. And also in other threads.

Really, if Smash 4 gets ATs that feel more like they're supposed to be a part of the game, then maybe these arguments will finally stop happening.

 

[Pyra]

Voicing his concerns of "the SILENT majority prefers Brawl over Melee" which is completely.... well full of sh*t to be completely honest.

Don't know if this has been said already but..

I don't doubt it.
Not everyone is religiously competitive like people on these forums. And a lot of people have the game.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Lol yeah they do. The dash cancel up smash for snake, versus a snake who doesn't know how to do it, will be a 3 stock everytime.

Now is this "With Friends" or "With Anyone"? Let me repeat myself: BARELY ANYONE plays Brawl's WITH ANYONE mode, whether they are a casual or competitive player. It's garbage, has a gross lack of options, and is only 4-Player matches.

Anything to do with Brawl's "With Friends" mode is irrelevant.

the whole matchmaking argument is void. Yes, it'd be possible. Sakurai already stated he doesn't want a ranking system. So there goes that idea.

Sakurai clearly said there's going to be some kind of system that will rank you so that you will be matched with other players of your skill level.

We don’t want to have a type of situation where you have a ranking pyramid, and only the people at the very top can enjoy it. I think there are other unique ways to be able to implement a system where people can get satisfaction out of performing at a skill level relative to their peer group.

I would love to know why some people seem to think that being able to pull off Melee's ATs is actually an indication of skill. Because they're really not that hard.

You're right, they aren't hard to perform. However, knowing how/when/where to use them is what separates players. Being able to l-cancel, waveland, and wavedash makes your character exponentially faster. If you watch how certain top players navigate the stage using the platforms and just spacing with wavedashes, it's clear that they are at a "higher level of skill".

 

[Barbs Jr]

I occasionally see some people basically treat it like some kind of indicator of high-level play, separating casual and competitve players. There was more of it going on the last time I posted in here. And also in other threads.

Really, if Smash 4 gets ATs that feel more like they're supposed to be a part of the game, then maybe these arguments will finally stop happening.

Yeah but that can't happen because then the game seems overwhelming to the casual players. Melees ATs were a perfect middle ground- if you didn't want to know how complicated the game was, you didn't have to. If they shoved WDing, DI, L cancelling and even SHs into the intro tutorial, a lot of casual players would give up. This way, only the people with the drive to learn these techniques will know about them.

Also, its not that ATs were the one thing separating casual and competitive players. But it's a fact that casuals by definition DONT do ATs, and almost all competitive players do use them.

 

[Kamiko]

Yeah but that can't happen because then the game seems overwhelming to the casual players. Melees ATs were a perfect middle ground- if you didn't want to know how complicated the game was, you didn't have to. If they shoved WDing, DI, L cancelling and even SHs into the intro tutorial, a lot of casual players would give up. This way, only the people with the drive to learn these techniques will know about them.

Also, its not that ATs were the one thing separating casual and competitive players. But it's a fact that casuals by definition DONT do ATs, and almost all competitive players do use them.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure most people didn't find out about any of those things intentionally. If ATs are introduced officially in the right way, it won't seem that daunting, and most people probably just don't/won't care anyway. Soul Calibur has everything right there in the tutorials, but I see some people never bother with most of it. They enjoy it just fine anyway.

 

[StriCNYN3]

In this thread, people don't know the saying "What they don't know won't hurt them.".

Before, the consensus was that casuals make up the majority of the Smash player base, but now when it comes to a topic like this, people here all of a sudden act like high level play will be running rampant. Please tell me how do you come to that conclusion?

Also, last time I checked, not every casual are sheep. They are human beings you know, and with that, not everyone shares the same experience and perception. I'm willing to bet most tourney goers here were once item chucking casuals themselves. Heck, I can vouch for myself and many others on that point so the notion that the millions of casuals online are going to be put off from Smash all together by A COUPLE losses here and there from a random AT user is just ridiculous. Going by that logic, please tell me how do I exist then? Was it because I was playing offline? That's the only sense I can make of it.

Also, the people arguing for the quitters who complain they don't have the same tools as the AT users can gladly GTFO, lol. It's 2013. We have Smashboards. We have Google. FFS we have Miiverse now. Literally the answer for aspiring players to know the ins and outs of a video game from people all around provided by the Wii U ITSELF... JUST incase you don't know what a Smashboards or Google is. There's literally no excuse for you to not just simply ask the AT user what he's doing. So because you're unwilling to do all this, we destroy a part of a community? Tell me how we need these type of people?

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

In this thread, people don't know the saying "What they don't know won't hurt them.".
Also, last time I checked, not every casual are sheep. They are human beings you know, and with that, not everyone shares the same experience and perception. I'm willing to bet most tourney goers here were once item chucking casuals themselves.

Throwing Items > Using Items. I remember the days before I discovered competitive smash. Items are tons of fun.

Also, the people arguing for the quitters who complain they don't have the same tools as the AT users can gladly GTFO, lol. It's 2013. We have Smashboards. We have Google. FFS we have Miiverse now. Literally the answer for aspiring players to know the ins and outs of a video game from people all around provided by the Wii U ITSELF... JUST incase you don't know what a Smashboards or Google is. There's literally no excuse for you to not just simply ask the AT user what he's doing. So because you're unwilling to do all this, we destroy a part of a community? Tell me how we need these type of people?

THIS. When I was playing 2v2 Call of Duty gamebattles, I would always stay in the lobby and chat with the other team to ask them about their strategies and techniques.

Other people are humans just like you, you know. If you ask them a question, or ask for advice/or tips, they probably won't respond by biting your head off and telling you to GFY.

 

[smashbrolink]

There doesn't even have to be a "Ranked Matchmaking" in order to counter everything you just said. Just "Free for All" and "Advanced play", neither has to be ranked and you know exactly what you are getting into right at the get go. So there your argument is void. I would love to get my *** kicked by a guy who was playing the game at its best, that **** is exciting. I don't know how many butt hurt little people you know but they need to get a grip. Well I want this Smash to be like Melee, you had Brawl why can't you play that game?

Dude, you've got Melee alongside 2 or three other Melee-like clones through hacked versions of Brawl.
You've got many more options if you want a Melee-like game.
Also, you're not seeing it from the other side of the spectrum.
Rather, you're forcing your excitement, that mindset of liking being stomped into the dirt, out into the open as if it's the way everyone should be feeling, and that any other way of looking at it is wrong.
Also, being stomped and merely losing are two different things.
You make it especially clear after using terms like "butt hurt people need to get a grip" that you just don't give half a crap about how these issues affect anyone who isn't as competitive as you.

Tell me something; how are you going to feel when someone uses that same exact line of reasoning on you, when Smash 4 is NOT like Melee?

Think about how others feel before you go off insulting them.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

In this thread, people don't know the saying "What they don't know won't hurt them.".

Before, the consensus was that casuals make up the majority of the Smash player base, but now when it comes to a topic like this, people here all of a sudden act like high level play will be running rampant. Please tell me how do you come to that conclusion?

Also, last time I checked, not every casual are sheep. They are human beings you know, and with that, not everyone shares the same experience and perception. I'm willing to bet most tourney goers here were once item chucking casuals themselves. Heck, I can vouch for myself and many others on that point so the notion that the millions of casuals online are going to be put off from Smash all together by A COUPLE losses here and there from a random AT user is just ridiculous. Going by that logic, please tell me how do I exist then? Was it because I was playing offline? That's the only sense I can make of it.

Also, the people arguing for the quitters who complain they don't have the same tools as the AT users can gladly GTFO, lol. It's 2013. We have Smashboards. We have Google. FFS we have Miiverse now. Literally the answer for aspiring players to know the ins and outs of a video game from people all around provided by the Wii U ITSELF... JUST incase you don't know what a Smashboards or Google is. There's literally no excuse for you to not just simply ask the AT user what he's doing. So because you're unwilling to do all this, we destroy a part of a community? Tell me how we need these type of people?

Dude speaks the truth. There is an infinitely expanding information resource at our disposal, and considering how close people can be these days there is no excuse not to try to learn.

I was in the same exact position, playing item FFAs etc. (Granted I still do) when one day a friend of a friend played me mono y mono. Given that I was undefeated in my close knit circle of friends I assumed I would just demolish him. He destroyed me, and showed me some ridiculous **** that made me question myself. I wasn't mad, I was amazed. Then he told me to check out smash boards, so I did. I wasn't as receptive of the advanced playing as I should be as I practiced them and had my doubts, but over time it just felt more natural. I watched matches, advanced how to play videos, researched proper DI, competitive mindset and all that jazz. I started playing with better people and enjoyed it greatly. Not only that, getting better at Melee opened my eyes to getting good at other fighting games as a result. Getting better was an amazing experience, and I regret nothing .

Players who feel the need to dumb a game down need to get over their self-entitled elitism and learn how to apply themselves when necessary. I never understood the motifs of people who only care about winning and have an extreme reluctance to accept that they are not the pinnacle of perfection in what they do. In my experience most of these people appear to be appear to be spoiled and would yell obscenities about peoples mothers without hesitation if things don't work their way.