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How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

Ulevo

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We didn't get a bad Smash game, we got a Smash game that wasn't purposefully designed around hardcore players the way Melee was. Those two things are not the same. Stop treating them like they are. Brawl wasn't a bad game.

It was littered with bugs, inconsistencies, and design problems that even a casual player could resent, while its design philosophy also pushed to alienate a portion of the playerbase that helped to expose and explode the series in to the phenomenon it is now. It had a severe lack of tentative care during its development, and it shows.

Have I once said that I resented Melee?
No.
Only specific elements of it, the same way that I disliked specific elements of Brawl.

Also, saying that those who loved Brawl for what it was do not matter is equally as biased as someone saying those who loved Melee don't matter and have no right to feel as they do. There are still quite a large number of players that were dedicated and passionate about Smash who still play Brawl.[not its hacked versions]


Brawl had negative elements just like every version before it, but it was not a bad game in and of itself simply because it didn't cater to the competitive base.
No, not word for word. But your position stems from and coincides with a mentality that Brawl as a game not being Melee down to the last detail is the reason for its negative reviews and criticisms. There's a lot more going on then that.

Also, I'm saying a players love for Brawl as a game doesn't discount its problems. I'm not saying people who love Brawl don't have opinions that should be considered.

I'm sure there are people out there that loved Sonic 2006. That doesn't mean it was designed well, or that it was even that good. And making the strawman that the majority of Sonics fanbase don't like Sonic 2006 because it isn't like any of Sonic's previous successful titles and they just don't like that its different doesn't help the development of future games to come. It also sounds pretty silly.
 

Jack Kieser

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Melee was littered with bugs, inconsistencies, and design problems, too. WE just happened to like those. The fact that we didn't like the Brawl ones doesn't somehow make them worse. Also, don't be so self important. Brawl had PLENTY of care during its development, just not in relation to you. Again, the fact that you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad.
 

Ulevo

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Melee was littered with bugs, inconsistencies, and design problems, too. WE just happened to like those. The fact that we didn't like the Brawl ones doesn't somehow make them worse. Also, don't be so self important. Brawl had PLENTY of care during its development, just not in relation to you. Again, the fact that you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad.

Melee, based on a proportion, had no where near the amount of bugs, inconsistencies, and poor design choices. Particularly ones that affected the game negatively. I can only think of a small handful of bugs in Melee that are actually noteworthy of mention that could be considered problematic to the player, and only several more that were there but we just accepted. If you want to talk about Brawl, there's an entire laundry list of problems.

That's also not accounting for the poor choices of its design, or blatant disregard for character balance. If you think Dedede having an infinite down throw or Meta Knight being overpowered on every skill level doesn't affect casual players, then we're not really going to have the foundations for a constructive conversation.
 

Jack Kieser

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First of all, again, by who's definition of bad? Ours? Because for as much the Internet hees and haws about tripping, most people just didn't give a ****. Sometimes it was a pain, but sometimes someone tripped into your F-smash, and for casuals just having fun, they didn't care. WE think it's a bad choice because WE have this fetish for eliminating random elements, but tripping is not, in and of itself, a bad choice, or even badly implemented. WE just didn't like it.

Wavedashing / landing is an inconsistency that could totally **** over a player who wasn't ready for it. But, again, WE like it, so I guess it's a good thing? L-cancelling is an arbitrary skill gate, and those are almost universally viewed by actual designers as bad design in any game, but we liked it. So, according to the pattern, it's a good thing.

Besides, you change your criteria for badness halfway through your post. First, you say that it has to affect the casual player. Then you cite D3's infinintes and chain grabs which, although easy for us, NEVER come up in a casual FFA. Hell, how many casual 1v1 players even know about D3's standing infinite? If you think the answer is anything over "almost none", you're insane. So, D3 is out as an example. And MK? Really? Mk being a problem to a casual is asinine. Planking isn't a concern for them because no casual does that, and certainly not with enough precision and consistency to break the game for their friends. WE don't even think 'nado is a real problem anymore, and we laugh at people who just let MK spam it. IDC would NEVER come up in a casual match. And Uair chains off of top? REALLY? You think casuals just do that? MK is a horrible example of character balance messing with casuals.

You're free to try again, though.
 

StarshipGroove

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What about the fact that sometimes my Olimar's Pikmin can go ghost and disappear and I can't even switch it?
Or how about the fact that that Popo and Nana sometimes fuse together in some bizzarre freak of nature and the game goes ape ****?
Or that I can CRASH THE WHOLE GAME with Sheik's chain.
 

Vkrm

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First of all, again, by who's definition of bad? Ours? Because for as much the Internet hees and haws about tripping, most people just didn't give a ****. Sometimes it was a pain, but sometimes someone tripped into your F-smash, and for casuals just having fun, they didn't care. WE think it's a bad choice because WE have this fetish for eliminating random elements, but tripping is not, in and of itself, a bad choice, or even badly implemented. WE just didn't like it.
so I guess casuals like having control ripped from them every so often. And the collective cheers joy that the entire gaming community shared when tripping confirmed to be gone weren't real.


Wavedashing / landing is an inconsistency that could totally **** over a player who wasn't ready for it. But, again, WE like it, so I guess it's a good thing?
yep, ****s over the unprepared, grabbing should be gone as well by this logic.



L-cancelling is an arbitrary skill gate, and those are almost universally viewed by actual designers as bad design in any game, but we liked it. So, according to the pattern, it's a good thing.
do we like it? You see even top melee players scorn the mechanic. Pretty sure we like lower lag on our aerials.


D3's infinintes and chain grabs which, although easy for us, NEVER come up in a casual FFA. Hell, how many casual 1v1 players even know about D3's standing infinite?
more than you think actually. Besides brawl has online, there's a pretty good chance that at some point a casual could get matched up with a D3 who does, and learn it that way.


So, D3 is out as an example. And MK? Really? Mk being a problem to a casual is asinine. Planking isn't a concern for them because no casual does that, and certainly not with enough precision and consistency to break the game for their friends. WE don't even think 'nado is a real problem anymore, and we laugh at people who just let MK spam it. IDC would NEVER come up in a casual match. And Uair chains off of top? REALLY? You think casuals just do that? MK is a horrible example of character balance messing with casuals.

Giving casuals too little credit, pretty sure they can all find the b button. Nado is broken at lower levels. Even if there are counters ad mid level play, casuals are still gonna get bopped.
 

Jack Kieser

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@Starship: Again, we only know about those things because we were looking for ATs. By Ulevo's own criteria, those don't count because they don't affect average players in normal matches (or something, he switched halfway through the post). I mean, what casual player tries to jacket Sheik's chain?
 

Vkrm

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@Starship: Again, we only know about those things because we were looking for ATs. By Ulevo's own criteria, those don't count because they don't affect average players in normal matches (or something, he switched halfway through the post). I mean, what casual player tries to jacket Sheik's chain?

Melee has been being played actively for over a decade by competitive player each looking for one more trick or AT that will improve their performance. Why don't we have this problem?
 

Ulevo

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First of all, again, by who's definition of bad? Ours? Because for as much the Internet hees and haws about tripping, most people just didn't give a ****. Sometimes it was a pain, but sometimes someone tripped into your F-smash, and for casuals just having fun, they didn't care. WE think it's a bad choice because WE have this fetish for eliminating random elements, but tripping is not, in and of itself, a bad choice, or even badly implemented. WE just didn't like it.

Wavedashing / landing is an inconsistency that could totally **** over a player who wasn't ready for it. But, again, WE like it, so I guess it's a good thing? L-cancelling is an arbitrary skill gate, and those are almost universally viewed by actual designers as bad design in any game, but we liked it. So, according to the pattern, it's a good thing.

Besides, you change your criteria for badness halfway through your post. First, you say that it has to affect the casual player. Then you cite D3's infinintes and chain grabs which, although easy for us, NEVER come up in a casual FFA. Hell, how many casual 1v1 players even know about D3's standing infinite? If you think the answer is anything over "almost none", you're insane. So, D3 is out as an example. And MK? Really? Mk being a problem to a casual is asinine. Planking isn't a concern for them because no casual does that, and certainly not with enough precision and consistency to break the game for their friends. WE don't even think 'nado is a real problem anymore, and we laugh at people who just let MK spam it. IDC would NEVER come up in a casual match. And Uair chains off of top? REALLY? You think casuals just do that? MK is a horrible example of character balance messing with casuals.

You're free to try again, though.

From a game design perspective (in this case I am speaking for myself, but feel there are those who would agree), it is bad.

As much as tripping was a poor decision, it is not my most targeted accusation nor the culprit for most of my complaints. It's the 'poster boy' of Brawl's bull**** for people who hate Brawl, kinda like how L-Cancelling is the 'poster boy' for why people dislike Melee, or certain aspects of it anyway. I don't think tripping is the worse offender in application, it was just more-or-less a 'was this really necessary' decision. But the rate at which it affects the gameplay negatively is much less noticeable when compared to other problems.

Wavedashing is not an inconsistency. It's a result of the way Melee operates. And the reason 'we' like it is because it adds depth to an already enjoyable game.

As far as L-Cancelling goes, you know what. I hear people give this thing a lot of flack, and I actually can't argue with their perspective. The reason I say this though is its all about the philosophy of the game, and the direction you want to take it in. While some directions you can point your games towards will inevitably have consequences that far outweigh the benefits, in a lot of cases its merely preference. I see this as one of those cases. Requiring execution to play a game is not inherently bad, it's just a design choice. Look at Guitar Hero. That game is all about execution, and almost nothing else. To the people who play and enjoy it, it's also very rewarding, because knowing that your practice and dedication (or innate talent and dexterity) allows you to pull through the difficult songs you do gives the player satisfaction and encourages them to play further. L-Cancelling is no different. The argument against L-Cancelling comes from the idea that Smash as a game should revolve around mental decision making and reactionary choices, rather than how difficult something is to execute, as that just serves to alienate specific players from the playerbase. While some appeal to that, and I can understand there preference (even though I also think L-Cancelling isn't difficult enough to actually have debates over), there's the Guitar Hero aspect of it as well. Player execution has been a part of fighting games essentially since day 1, and it always will be to some degree or another. Even though it doesn't add depth, it adds appeal to some players. So, tl;dr, even though I actually like L-Cancelling and would prefer it, that's simply me catering to a design philosophy that's just different and that I like, not better or worse. I don't hold Brawl in a negative light because of that.

As for the last of your post, if you think that things like infinitely down throwing someone as D3 on a stage like Shadow Moses Island or Bridge of Eldin and killing them for free doesn't happen in casual play, I think you're being very narrow with your perspective here.

Casuals and competitors are not different species of people. We all exist on different levels of skill, and varying reasons for playing the game. Some of us are more competitive than others, and the opposite is also true. There are plenty of players out there that don't go to tournaments and are ignorant of what framerates are, what a tier list looks like, or what a wavedash means, but still play with items off and know how to press L+R + Down + Run repeatedly. I'd also be willing to wager they can see how cheesy it is. Low and behold, there's a lot of very easy, very potent bull**** in Brawl.

I'll often say things like how designing Smash with competitive integrity in mind won't negatively impact a casual players experience, and that's because it won't. It's just how Smash beautifully operates. It lets everyone play. But if you ignore or remove important components to the games design that affect its integrity that only competitive (or should I more appropriately say studious) players are likely to recognize because they see the finer details, while the lesser skilled players don't, it doesn't mean they won't feel the effect.
 

Jack Kieser

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so I guess casuals like having control ripped from them every so often. And the collective cheers joy that the entire gaming community shared when tripping confirmed to be gone weren't real.
Like? Not necessarily. Care about? Not if it adds lulz, which for them it might (context is important). And, as I just said in the very post you freaking quoted without reading, the Internet =/= all players. I've played with a LOT of people who don't care, at worst. Tripping being removed wasn't in service of casual players, it was one of the concession Sakurai was making towards US. You know, the concessions competitive players ***** about wanting then promptly forget to claim that Sakurai never listens to us.

yep, ****s over the unprepared, grabbing should be gone as well by this logic.
Hey, don't ***** at me. Ulevo said that was the criteria. He said Brawl was bad because it had stuff that could **** over players without them knowing what happened, and I countered with wavelanding, which makes little sense the first time you do it, as something that met his criteria and yet was viewed as a good thing. You have a problem with his criteria, take it up with him.

do we like it? You see even top melee players scorn the mechanic. Pretty sure we like lower lag on our aerials.
Pretty sure we also constantly say "hey, if you don't like it, don't play, because it separates the casuals from the competitive players and adds tech skill to the game". Either you like more tech skill or you don't. Which is it? Because you all keep fellating tech skill, so all added tech skill must be good. Unless you don't actually think that, in which case you agree with me and have been for, like, a week now.

more than you think actually. Besides brawl has online, there's a pretty good chance that at some point a casual could get matched up with a D3 who does, and learn it that way.
Oh, but wait! I thought we didn't get matched up with casuals enough for our stuff to affect them? So, are you admitting that the OP is wrong? Because it sounds like you're admitting the OP is wrong, and that our ATs and stuff affect casual players.

Giving casuals too little credit, pretty sure they can all find the b button. Nado is broken at lower levels. Even if there are counters ad mid level play, casuals are still gonna get bopped.
EVERYTHING is broken at lower levels. Link's arrow / boomerang / bomb spam is broken at a low enough level. So what? We don't say a game is bad because people aren't good at it. Isn't that the whole point?
 

Big-Cat

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Again, I'm going to ask this once more: What exactly is an AT? Everyone's talking about them like they were unintentional byproducts of the mechanics save for L-Canceling and Wavedashing.
 

Jack Kieser

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As far as I know, an AT is anything not in the manual that's useful to us. A glitch that doesn't help in a match is a glitch, until it becomes useful, and then we call it technology.
 

Kekezo

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Not really sure what these "advanced techniques" from melee are, but they sound like some secret glitch bs. If he was to add it back in at all, it wouldn't be as some secret glitch, it would be as a technique everyone has access to from the start. The kind of thing they give tutorials for. People can't complain about losing if they're too lazy to learn how to play the game.

Also, just because casual players are casual players doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say. They have the right to enjoy the game just as much as competitive players.
 

Ulevo

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To put it in to a more understanding perspective, a long time ago a sticky was made in the now Melee section of the SmashBoard forums for newer players to use to help them learn techniques within the game that were lesser known that would help their gameplay. They were labeled as Advanced Techniques. Because learning these finer points of detail was one of aspects for players to learn to play competitively, when Brawl was released, a rush of players new to the scene or previously not in the tournament scene (like myself) sought to learn any new 'AT's' that might be in Brawl to be discovered. And so it's just kind of stuck.

The Smash community is pretty habitual for naming things in a funky manner.

I couldn't find the original thread. This video also had a lot to do with it as well. A lot of the commentary in the video is quoting AlphaZealot from the original thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n4s5yB7ZkE
 

Big-Cat

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As far as I know, an AT is anything not in the manual that's useful to us. A glitch that doesn't help in a match is a glitch, until it becomes useful, and then we call it technology.
By that logic, even combos are ATs as those are rarely, if ever, mentioned in the manual of any fighting game.
 

Jack Kieser

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First of all, you mean by that definition, not by that logic. That was a statement, logic would be a series of statements that relate to each other.

Second, particular combos aren't, combos as a mechanic are. Smash is the only fighting game where combos aren't mentioned in the manual, to my knowledge. That being said, we call combos "combos" and not "ATs" because they are a subset, a particular kind of technology that makes sense to differentiate from other tech. If we called combos and DACUS the same thing, both would lose meaning.
 

otter

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I don't even care about tripping personally. It favors the prepared mind anyway. I'm glad it's gone, but it's not on the top 10 list of why the game sucks.
 

Jack Kieser

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Oh, never mind. I got it. You're trying to flood the thread with ridiculous in an attempt to drive me away. >_<
 

Ulevo

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I think I should also mention that, again, "advanced techniques" is a pretty misleading term to use in a lot of these situations.

None of the techniques involved in Smash are ever were ever intuitively complicated. They're usually just mechanically complicated. Crouch Cancelling was considered an advanced technique, but honestly there is nothing advanced or complicated about it. You hold down, and when someone hits you when you are at lower %'s or with an attack that isn't as powerful, you don't fly or go as far. In some cases, you can you use this to counter attack. It's similar in concept to shield grabbing, but the only action it requires is holding down at the right time. It's not complicated.

Most advances techniques are like this. Simple, easy to use, and open up tons of possibilities for players. A lot of the advanced techniques in Brawl, ironically enough, are not intuitive at all. Most of them involve an exploitation of framerates or some kind of interior game knowledge that is only accessible to the player that knows better, but can't be observed by the untrained spectator. It took months and months for people to discover that you could actually use aerial attacks to cancel your momentum from flying away after being hit, and that's not hard to see why. It doesn't make sense to the player anymore than it makes sense to have it in the system.
 

Jack Kieser

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"Advanced" doesn't just refer to tech skill, though; it also refers to usage or just plain un-intuitiveness. I mean, you bring up crouch cancelling. You're right: input wise, it's incredibly simple. But, it make zero sense. EVERYTHING in Smash is supposed to send you flying, to some degree, and everything that sends you flying into the ground is supposed to make you bounce (assuming you didn't tech the hit). Everything. But, some things don't? Depending on whether you held down or not? And it's not just that you don't bounce, you stay in place. And it's not just that you stay in place, but that you are in a neutral position (well, crouching, but you know what I mean) and can react however you want. That's. ********. At any percent, if you hold down into the ground and get hit, you should be in hitstun and bounce off the ground.

But, you don't, and so it's an advanced concept insofar as its something that's counter-intuitive.

@EPF: Yeah, maybe you'll learn not to flood the thread with ridiculous because not only does it not work, but it degrades the quality of the thread? Again, don't be a smartass.
 

Kekezo

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Why do people sound like these AT's have to be added in as glitches? Is that what people are saying?
 

Jack Kieser

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They don't have to be, and optimally wouldn't be; the game would be glitch / exploit free and there'd only be technology that the game tells us about so that everyone would know all the tools and the trick would be in utilizing them / having good strategy and good execution.
 
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Why do people sound like these AT's have to be added in as glitches? Is that what people are saying?

They're saying that some of the techniques later found in some of the smash games (notably 64 and Melee) were glitches that essentially created a non-existent revolution among the players who weren't aware of them, thus they opt for the removal. the reality of the matter is that these players are likely just people that were unable to successfully grasp the concepts of competitive smash whether it be a limitation in hand dexterity or plain apathy to learn. These players magically became a part of the community when Sakurai said that "Melee was too hard" in an interview, thus these people found a scapegoat to say things for whatever reason they felt inadequate. More or less they are sheep.
 

Ulevo

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"Advanced" doesn't just refer to tech skill, though; it also refers to usage or just plain un-intuitiveness. I mean, you bring up crouch cancelling. You're right: input wise, it's incredibly simple. But, it make zero sense. EVERYTHING in Smash is supposed to send you flying, to some degree, and everything that sends you flying into the ground is supposed to make you bounce (assuming you didn't tech the hit). Everything. But, some things don't? Depending on whether you held down or not? And it's not just that you don't bounce, you stay in place. And it's not just that you stay in place, but that you are in a neutral position (well, crouching, but you know what I mean) and can react however you want. That's. ********. At any percent, if you hold down into the ground and get hit, you should be in hitstun and bounce off the ground.

But, you don't, and so it's an advanced concept insofar as its something that's counter-intuitive.

Mm, I disagree. In the context of Smash, it's fairly consistent, and makes perfect sense. You're able to DI your trajectory when you're thrown or hit in the air by holding the joystick a certain way. While it might not be readily realized by the player that it won't do anything to hold the stick parallel to their direction they're going in, and that holding it perpendicular will yield the most influence (something a competitive player would know), it is easy to see it in action while you play and is hard to not notice that you have some control over where you go when you're sent flying. So it stands to reason that holding the joystick in a downward direction while on the ground might yield similar results, or have some kind of effect.

Also, you don't just stay in place. At higher percents you won't, and it can be dangerous to crouch cancel at certain % and against certain moves.

There is both an intuitive science to discover here, as well as a very fine tuned understanding of when and where to apply it. To say it is an advanced technique is a bit of a stretch because honestly anyone can apply it, but only skilled players know the benefits and consequences of that application when it is applied. That's where most of the depth comes from, and it's the removal of things like this that disappoint most people.
 

Kekezo

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Yeah. If it's just an added feature everyone (informed) knows about, then there's no problem...
 

Ulevo

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Why do people sound like these AT's have to be added in as glitches? Is that what people are saying?

No. People are ignorantly confusing "advanced techniques" as unintended exploits or glitches in Smash's mechanics that players use to win, when the reality is that very few of them even loosely fall under that definition. An example of an advanced technique is wavedashing, which most people cite (this does not make it unintended nor a glitch however.) Another example of an advanced technique that is an unintended exploit is Samus's Superwavedash, though it doesn't present any balance problems or game quality concerns.
 

Jack Kieser

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Mm, I disagree. In the context of Smash, it's fairly consistent, and makes perfect sense. You're able to DI your trajectory when you're thrown or hit in the air by holding the joystick a certain way. While it might not be readily realized by the player that it won't do anything to hold the stick parallel to their direction their going in, and that holding it perpendicular will yield the most influence (something a competitive player would know), it is easy to see it in action while you play and is hard to not notice that you have some control over where you go when you're sent flying. So it stands to reason that hold the joystick in a downward direction while on the ground might yield similar results, or have some kind of a effect.
I'm not saying that the DI'ing into the ground doesn't make sense. That makes perfect sense. It's the not being in hitstun and not bouncing off the ground that makes no sense. Again, literally everything else that's not CC that hits you into the ground and isn't teched bounces you off the ground. Except a CC'ed move. That's the exception, and it doesn't even make sense as to why it'd be the exception. If the game maintained a perfectly consistent internal logic, an un-teched CC'ed Peach D-smash would pop you into the air at ANY percent.

Also, you don't just stay in place. At higher percents you won't, and it can be dangerous to crouch cancel at certain % and against certain moves.
I know you don't just stay in place perfectly, I was oversimplifying. Sorry, I got lazy with my typing.

There is both an intuitive science to discover here, as well as a very fine tuned understanding of when and where to apply it. To say it is an advanced technique is a bit of a stretch because honestly anyone can apply it, but only skilled players know the benefits and consequences of that application when it is applied.
There are plenty of things in games of all kinds, not just fighting games, that are considered "advanced", even though the buttons are simple or something. Mainly because "advanced" is a relative term by nature, so every "advanced" tech is being compared to something else. Which is also why my definition didn't take any of that into account; I was tacitly agreeing that the term itself is a bit dumb, but we're bad at naming things.
 

Jack Kieser

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No. People are ignorantly confusing "advanced techniques" as unintended exploits or glitches in Smash's mechanics that players use to win, when the reality is that very few of them even loosely fall under that definition. An example of an advanced technique is wavedashing, which most people cite (this does not make it unintended nor a glitch however.) Another example of an advanced technique that is an unintended exploit is Samus's Superwavedash, though it doesn't present any balance problems or game quality concerns.
Who exactly is doing THAT? Some ATs are glitches, some are oversights in coding, some are intended, some aren't... But OUR usage of the term encompasses pretty much everything we do in a match that isn't just a basic mechanic like jumping, Smash attacks, specials, etc. I don't see anyone saying all ATs are unintended glitches or something. The most obvious ones are, but not all of them. -_-

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.
 

Ulevo

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I watched a recent episode of Extra Credits, and it covered the relative easiness of games, game depth, and so forth. It also covered tutorials as an instrument to be used as a way to make games more accessible (rather than easy) as a means to make long standing, lasting franchises. I think this is something we could have used in a more convenient form in all of our Smash games actually. Sure that 1 minute demo between Mario and Bowser was cute, but if Sakurai made it an effort to put L-Cancelling in the manual or throw it up on his Dojo, I don't see why he couldn't include it in the in-game tutorial itself. I think this going forward would be a huge help to all players alike and would just help the game to grow in all respects.

Here's the video I was watching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U

Who exactly is doing THAT? Some ATs are glitches, some are oversights in coding, some are intended, some aren't... But OUR usage of the term encompasses pretty much everything we do in a match that isn't just a basic mechanic like jumping, Smash attacks, specials, etc. I don't see anyone saying all ATs are unintended glitches or something. The most obvious ones are, but not all of them. -_-

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

It's not as prevalent in this thread so much as it might be elsewhere, but it does happen a lot, and it's one of the reasons for player confusion, like in Kekezo's case.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Las Vegas
Like? Not necessarily. Care about? Not if it adds lulz, which for them it might (context is important). And, as I just said in the very post you freaking quoted without reading, the Internet =/= all players. I've played with a LOT of people who don't care, at worst. Tripping being removed wasn't in service of casual players, it was one of the concession Sakurai was making towards US. You know, the concessions competitive players ***** about wanting then promptly forget to claim that Sakurai never listens to us.

I never figured you an apologist, trying to downplay how loathed tripping is. look no further than reddit, which is populated by mostly casual players. What your essentially doing is a copy and paste of sakurai's silent majority argument. Tripping has literally never been talked about in a positive light, no one brings it up outside of brawl bashing, but you insist that there are a bunch of players who find it to be a compelling feature but don't feel compelled to defend it. Works just as well for superman64. And for the record, I like posts that present good arguments weather or not I agree, or that make me laugh.



Hey, don't ***** at me. Ulevo said that was the criteria. He said Brawl was bad because it had stuff that could **** over players without them knowing what happened, and I countered with wavelanding, which makes little sense the first time you do it, as something that met his criteria and yet was viewed as a good thing. You have a problem with his criteria, take it up with him.
Probably will.


Pretty sure we also constantly say "hey, if you don't like it, don't play, because it separates the casuals from the competitive players and adds tech skill to the game". Either you like more tech skill or you don't. Which is it? Because you all keep fellating tech skill, so all added tech skill must be good. Unless you don't actually think that, in which case you agree with me and have been for, like, a week now.
Dont set me up as someone who demands arbitrary difficulty for the sake of making this argument easier on you. Smash bros is a game that gives the player absolute control. With so much control, it's a given that some players will be limited my their coordination. I'm against needlessly over complicating inputs, as long as we preserve depth. The removal of l cancel made smash more simple, it's too bad that we also lost a lot strategic elements as a result. Let me ask, what was gained? brawl doesn't enjoy a partcularly big or active tourney scene.


Oh, but wait! I thought we didn't get matched up with casuals enough for our stuff to affect them? So, are you admitting that the OP is wrong? Because it sounds like you're admitting the OP is wrong, and that our ATs and stuff affect casual players.
Your absolutely right, Nintendo should've instituted matchmaking here as well, hopefully they'll rectify this mistake for smash 4.
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
8,377
Location
Long Beach,California
I watched a recent episode of Extra Credits, and it covered the relative easiness of games, game depth, and so forth. It also covered tutorials as an instrument to be used as a way to make games more accessible (rather than easy) as a means to make long standing, lasting franchises. I think this is something we could have used in a more convenient form in all of our Smash games actually. Sure that 1 minute demo between Mario and Bowser was cute, but if Sakurai made it an effort to put L-Cancelling in the manual or throw it up on his Dojo, I don't see why he couldn't include it in the in-game tutorial itself. I think this going forward would be a huge help to all players alike and would just help the game to grow in all respects.

Here's the video I was watching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U


It's not as prevalent in this thread so much as it might be elsewhere, but it does happen a lot, and it's one of the reasons for player confusion, like in Kekezo's case.

Just watched it. Seriously, everyone should watch that video. It brilliantly addresses everything that is discussed in the thread.
 

Kekezo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
60
So... the easiest solution to this thread's problem is simply to give a good tutorial, and expose players to complicated techniques.
What would you all think if they dug a tutorial into the story mode?
 
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