Houston Thread - No HOBOs and no WHOBOs. What do we do now??????????????????????????????????????????

[RT]

Like I said, I feel knockback reduction was a good idea, but suffered poor execution. It was obviously designed so that people wouldn't spam the same move over and over when trying to KO their opponent. From a game design standpoint, you want to make sure that a move isn't neglected or spammed, so you have to implement some sort of mechanic to achieve this balance.

As much as I love watching someone getting triple'd kneed in Melee, it does seem kind of silly to die from a single move being used over and over.

Brawl had the right idea, but it had too strong an effect. If it was more gradual, it could work.

 

[Smoom77]

-gets out melee disc and memory card-

 

[kailo34ce]

allans just trying to defend brawl for no reason

brawl has stuff ok. standing there and pushing z with a 10 frame window breaking a bunch of matchups is just dumb lol

 

[Xyro77]

What Pikachu player has been dominating besides ESAM? Honest question.

its not about domination. its the discovery of the move that changed MUs by a large amount. so kalo was wrong, something MAJOR was discovered with a not so MAJOR character that changed MUs big time. and it wasnt in 08 or early 09 either. like late 09 or early 2010.

Like I said, I feel knockback reduction was a good idea, but suffered poor execution. It was obviously designed so that people wouldn't spam the same move over and over when trying to KO their opponent. From a game design standpoint, you want to make sure that a move isn't neglected or spammed, so you have to implement some sort of mechanic to achieve this.

As much as I love watching someone getting triple'd kneed in Melee, it does seem kind of silly to die from a single move being used over and over.

Brawl had the right idea, but it had too strong an effect. If it was more gradual, it could work.

i disagree but w/e. it doesnt matter. brawl was made and ssb4 wont be much diff.

 

[Nicknyte]

Why is there so many people in this thread? Lol

 

[RT]

The Houston thread has a meaningful discussion .01% of the time. This is one of those times.

 

[Smoom77]

This is meaningful?

 

[Gea]

Like I said, I feel knockback reduction was a good idea, but suffered poor execution. It was obviously designed so that people wouldn't spam the same move over and over when trying to KO their opponent. From a game design standpoint, you want to make sure that a move isn't neglected or spammed, so you have to implement some sort of mechanic to achieve this balance.

As much as I love watching someone getting triple'd kneed in Melee, it does seem kind of silly to die from a single move being used over and over.

Brawl had the right idea, but it had too strong an effect. If it was more gradual, it could work.

I disagree. I understand the premise, but that's assuming that the movesets are balanced and flexible, which has never ever been the case in any smash game. In every game some characters only have 1-2 killmoves period, and knockback staling is a pretty damn solid nerf to them as a character.

Take Peach in Brawl. Staled fair doesn't mean usmash is more viable as a result, it just means she has to camp it out or save the fair whereas a character like Snake can just use another one of their viable killmoves after staling utilt.

So until the rosters are balanced better, I disagree. It wasn't even an issue in Melee except in the lowest levels of play anyways. Spamming the same (kill)move over and over is not even safe. Triple knees only work because they actually combo. Something tells me moves like Marth's fsmash were more the cause of knockback staling.

Also another thing is you get really weird/stupid combos that work with knockback staling. Low knockback moves suddenly get more potent to be spammed. Isn't that what staling what supposed to solve?

its not about domination. its the discovery of the move that changed MUs by a large amount. so kalo was wrong, something MAJOR was discovered with a not so MAJOR character that changed MUs big time. and it wasnt in 08 or early 09 either. like late 09 or early 2010.

His entire point was that the game hasn't changed much. I'm honestly asking if Pikachu is more of a national threat now minus one player.

 

[Xyro77]

allans just trying to defend brawl for no reason

brawl has stuff ok. standing there and pushing z with a 10 frame window breaking a bunch of matchups is just dumb lol

yea it is dumb but its proof that this game still has stuff to find out about. buffering changes things. it made pika good and give falco a decent chance at a Usmash oos or after a throw. that changes things.

 

[Xyro77]

This is meaningful?

yes. higher level discussion means nothing to new gens like you.

Also another thing is you get really weird/stupid combos that work with knockback staling. Low knockback moves suddenly get more potent to be spammed. Isn't that what staling what supposed to solve?

squirtle

hes better stale than refreshed.

 

[Xyro77]

His entire point was that the game hasn't changed much. I'm honestly asking if Pikachu is more of a national threat now minus one player.

the game has. i gave example. besides, buffering possibilites have not be fully understood yet.s

 

[Gea]

But your example is overshadowed by the fact that those discoveries did not see a significant increase in the placings of those characters as far as I am aware.

 

[kailo34ce]

The initial point was the one i gave about brawl never evolviing into anything else but brawl.

it never did, things were discovered in brawl, but the game is still the same general thing, it didnt become something beyond the garbage everyone thought it was in the beginning, people just became garbage sucked into the brawlness.

you can find something meaningful in everything in life (like buffering tricks) doesnt change them.

 

[Xyro77]

But your example is overshadowed by the fact that those discoveries did not see a significant increase in the placings of those characters as far as I am aware.

we are not talking about placings. we are talking about game changing.

pika buffered CGs change falco/fox/snake/ddd MUs MUCH more than they were before.

buffered dacus oos on falco gives him another chance at a KO(which he has a hard time of doing already)

these things change MUs and thus changes the game.

 

[Xyro77]

The initial point was the one i gave about brawl never evolviing into anything else but brawl.

it never did, things were discovered in brawl, but the game is still the same general thing, it didnt become something beyond the garbage everyone thought it was in the beginning, people just became garbage sucked into the brawlness.

you can find something meaningful in everything in life (like buffering tricks) doesnt change them.

had u said brawl sucks and will never become more than a defensive/camp/gay fest....i would have agreed with you. but u didnt.

 

[RT]

I disagree. I understand the premise, but that's assuming that the movesets are balanced and flexible, which has never ever been the case in any smash game. In every game some characters only have 1-2 killmoves period, and knockback staling is a pretty damn solid nerf to them as a character.

Take Peach in Brawl. Staled fair doesn't mean usmash is more viable as a result, it just means she has to camp it out or save the fair whereas a character like Snake can just use another one of their viable killmoves after staling utilt.

So until the rosters are balanced better, I disagree. It wasn't even an issue in Melee except in the lowest levels of play anyways. Spamming the same (kill)move over and over is not even safe. Triple knees only work because they actually combo. Something tells me moves like Marth's fsmash were more the cause of knockback staling.

Also another thing is you get really weird/stupid combos that work with knockback staling. Low knockback moves suddenly get more potent to be spammed. Isn't that what staling what supposed to solve?

Then maybe give unstaled moves a knockback/damage bonus? I dunno. I still like the general concept.

In Melee, some characters can overuse their kill moves BECAUSE they have high damage and knockback to the point where there is almost no incentive to use another kill move anyways. So if Fox gets you offstage, you're trying to recover, and you're at kill percent, is there really an incentive to use another move besides bair? And you already mentioned Marth.

 

[kailo34ce]

we are not talking about placings. we are talking about game changing.

pika buffered CGs change falco/fox/snake/ddd MUs MUCH more than they were before.

buffered dacus oos on falco gives him another chance at a KO(which he has a hard time of doing already)

these things change MUs and thus changes the game.

we are talking about the game changing, not the floaty slow campy time-out rules enforced to make the game actually playable game that alrady had standing chaingrabs, getting standing chaingrabs and the ability to sit there and utilt 10 times in a row (squirtle)

all garbage, nothing has ever redeemed that game outside what i said,diddy banana spam, because that added a whole dimension to the metagame. getting chaingrabbed adds exactly nothing except your character better not get grabbed by pikachu (not getting grabbed changes nothing

 

[Xyro77]

we are talking about the game changing, not the floaty slow campy time-out rules enforced to make the game actually playable game that alrady had standing chaingrabs, getting standing chaingrabs and the ability to sit there and utilt 10 times in a row (squirtle)

all garbage, nothing has ever redeemed that game outside what i said,diddy banana spam, because that added a whole dimension to the metagame. getting chaingrabbed adds exactly nothing except your character better not get grabbed by pikachu (not getting grabbed changes nothing

the discovery and "dynamic" use of these things^ change the game. this is not hard to understand

 

[Xyro77]

lol im not saying brawl is good/better im just saying its deeper than u think/want to admit

 

[Gea]

Then maybe give unstaled moves a knockback/damage bonus? I dunno. I still like the general concept.

In Melee, some characters can overuse their kill moves BECAUSE they have high damage and knockback to the point where there is almost no incentive to use another kill move anyways. So if Fox gets you offstage and you're at kill percent, is there really an incentive to use another move besides bair?

Actually, having lower knockback on bair (to an extent) would be beneficial to Fox because it gives players at mid % less of a chance to DI it upwards and make it back. Bair isn't really a killmove until %s way higher than other nice delicious Fox moves like usmash. Bair is used because of the priority, hitbox, and the fact that it can be done from the ledge more than the potential it has to kill outright.

So I'm gonna ask for another example to understand your point. Unstaled moves already are "stronger" in % and knockback to their staled counterparts, so a buff to them would just be making staled moves even more weak.

Here's another example. Say that knockback reduction was in Melee and you are playing as Falco vs my Fox. I uthrow usmash you. Normally another usmash would let you jump out, but because of staling I get 2+ more and get you to 70% just tapping the cstick upwards. From there I can just uthrow bair you and edgeguard, who cares about killing upwards?

It is an interesting idea in concept, but knockback reduction doesn't pan out imo.

 

[kailo34ce]

i dont care how deep it is, link has 1000 tricks.

1000 tricks in a bad game.
pikachu grabs and dthrows , the other char sits there and takes it.

diddys bananas however are entirely different,theres all kinds of **** going on beause it constnatly vchanges the movement and etc of the game.

i am sorry for using the word "evolve" against someone who watches CNN

 

[RT]

Actually, having lower knockback on bair (to an extent) would be beneficial to Fox because it gives players at mid % less of a chance to DI it upwards and make it back. Bair isn't really a killmove until %s way higher than other nice delicious Fox moves like usmash. Bair is used because of the priority, hitbox, and the fact that it can be done from the ledge more than the potential it has to kill outright.

So I'm gonna ask for another example to understand your point. Unstaled moves already are "stronger" in % and knockback to their staled counterparts, so a buff to them would just be making staled moves even more weak.

Here's another example. Say that knockback reduction was in Melee and you are playing as Falco vs my Fox. I uthrow usmash you. Normally another usmash would let you jump out, but because of staling I get 2+ more and get you to 70% just tapping the cstick upwards. From there I can just uthrow bair you and edgeguard, who cares about killing upwards?

It is an interesting idea in concept, but knockback reduction doesn't pan out imo.

Yeah, I see what you're getting at.

I still like the concept...but I guess implementing it correctly will take some creativity...something Sakurai wouldn't have anyways.

 

[Gea]

I can agree with that.

 

[RT]

I take that back, tripping in a fighting game is very unique and very terrible at the same time.

 

[Zano]

I like brawl!

 

[kailo34ce]

stale moves is as stupid as if sometimes moves came out like 5 frames later, it isnt how you balance a game lol. it caters to that random kid fighting his brother who is spamming dsmash with pikachu

 

[BioDG]

This is meaningful?

When you compare to the usual, yes.

 

[Xyro77]

i dont care how deep it is, link has 1000 tricks.

1000 tricks in a bad game.
pikachu grabs and dthrows , the other char sits there and takes it.

diddys bananas however are entirely different,theres all kinds of **** going on beause it constnatly vchanges the movement and etc of the game.

i am sorry for using the word "evolve" against someone who watches CNN

ummm i watch CNN.


anyways, what you are arguing is what im saying. the discovery(bananas in this case) and the "dynamic" use of them(glide toss/instant toss...ect) changed the game.

The discovery(buffering) and the "dynamic" use of it(combining buffering with CGs) changed the game.

one is on a LARGER scale and one is on a SMALLER scale but they are both meaningful changes to the game.

 

[Gea]

I think putting the tripping property on moves themselves isn't that bad of an idea. God knows Mario's dtilt tripping (really just "knocking over" even at low %s) wouldn't hurt him. Random trips is dumb, though. And putting it on nearly every weird move is dumb too. Whatever. Footstooling is an interesting idea as well but I don't feel like it panned out well. Janky *** hitboxes.

 

[Xyro77]

I take that back, tripping in a fighting game is very unique and very terrible at the same time.

yes!!!!

stale moves is as stupid as if sometimes moves came out like 5 frames later, it isnt how you balance a game lol. it caters to that random kid fighting his brother who is spamming dsmash with pikachu

yes!!!!

 

[Zori]

my eyes.......

 

[CY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1oge5nHQk

^Jerm, P4, CY, Smoom, Sync, etc

yup I love his solo album.

been listening to some Joy Division/New Order ftw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEJpmDUMKco

amazing^

 

[RT]

I think putting the tripping property on moves themselves isn't that bad of an idea. God knows Mario's dtilt tripping (really just "knocking over" even at low %s) wouldn't hurt him. Random trips is dumb, though.

Oh yeah, for sure, that's fine. But moves that don't need it...like Snake's ftilt...like why does the first hit have that property plus ******** hitstun?

 

[Gea]

Hurr weakhit knee trips you

 

[Xyro77]

Oh yeah, for sure, that's fine. But moves that don't need it...like Snake's ftilt...like why does the first hit have that property plus ******** hitstun?

ITS BRAWL, DEAL WITH iT

 

[RT]

ITS BRAWL, DEAL WITH iT

...................no

 

[BioDG]

@ TESH SETHLON ALLAN BIO SMOOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DjDEnItO6Q

i beat this song SMD.

EDIT: i did not play in this video or get anywhere close to 99% lol

Yeah, I remember your post and that song. Amazing job, dude. Even if it was a terrible percentage I give you props lol

I never got around to play OML. Not many ITG machines were around me but I made the most of it when I went out to play on one.

 

[kailo34ce]

yes!!!!



yes!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs


what i initially meant was evolving= not being brawl anymore
(wavedashing around to actualyl add a spacing synamic to the game)

or maybe having a reason to approach in the game other than being the character who cant camp as hard


reason 2 is the only valor i would give to pikachus cg "i cant camp falco as hard as he can camp me so i better approach to cg him"

problem is this still doesnt happen lol.

 

[kailo34ce]

Yeah, I remember your post and that song. Amazing job, dude. Even if it was a terrible percentage I give you props lol

I never got around to play OML. Not many ITG machines were around me but I made the most of it when I went out to play on one.

have you ever played on an actual ITG pad?

 

[Leaf.]

So, what's up guys?