Hierarchies of Power: The Ganon Community Tier List! (Updated October 8th 2017)

[_Magus_]

For now I'm moving -VictoriaJustice- to around _Magus_'s position, as last I observed of their playstyles, while they might be comfortable with Ganon, they definitely have some notable bad habits to work out, especially in playing negative states and making more intelligent techchasing decisions.

Aside from the fact Gungnir lacks notable recent tournament results, there's two reasons I think he's still overall the best. One being his reaction time, the other being his sheer creativity. There legitimately isn't another Ganon player that has his level of precise creativity, and you can see this not only in his excellent punishes, but the stuff he labs. No other Ganon I think labs things nearly as efficiently as Gungnir, the way things are right now, and even to this day he continues to produce technology (even if it's just matchup specific tricks) that is ahead of our metagames.

So not just his sheer skill, but what he demonstrates he knows and contributes for us, he's simply the best of us.

That being said, it's up for debate, so I dissolved the "King of Evil" tier for now.

I think that's a fair assessment. I'd like to keep training with you if you don't mind.

 

[Opana]

I am part of the 25% that voted for someone else

Thanks.

EDIT:
Also, while I feel like Gungnir is definitely creative he often can't apply a lot of what he does. I feel like in friendlies he's more than willing to show off tech skill, but knows in a tourney setting that the likelihood of landing one of his setups is pretty impractical. Nobody is denying he has furthered the Ganondorf meta, but his lab work doesn't necessarily translate into actual fights well imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks.

EDIT:
Also, while I feel like Gungnir is definitely creative he often can't apply a lot of what he does. I feel like in friendlies he's more than willing to show off tech skill, but knows in a tourney setting that the likelihood of landing one of his setups is pretty impractical. Nobody is denying he has furthered the Ganondorf meta, but his lab work doesn't necessarily translate into actual fights well imo.

Disagree with this completely.

Gungnir's massive tech skill and insane reaction time are very evident in the serious sets he's played against notable players. Mind you, Japan is probably the most stacked region in the world. He's still learning matchups on a completely different level than anyone else, arguably.

It's not about what gimmick setups he doesn't land, it's still evident the way he plays the game is just not on the same level as what other people do.

 

[Opana]

Yeah but how many of these great players is he facing? Is there footage available anywhere? I believe you're one of, if not the most informed on the Japanese Ganondorf scene so I figured I'd ask. I can't really say I agree based on what I've seen and experienced. I will say though his reaction time is fantastic, last time I played I was in a 4 player rotation with him, Rudori, and Papaya, and he only missed like one tech despite there being bad input lag. I'm not saying his reaction time isn't fantastic, or even the best, and while that is extremely important to a Ganondorf main there are many other things that are important that make up us dorf mains.

Well anyway, I think for the time being maybe we should just generalize all the categories, and as Ganondorf mains attend more tourneys and demonstrate their skills we slowly, as a community, start ordering us mains where we feel they should place.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm middle of the road on Gungnir. I do think he's creative and overall has A+ fundamentals, I just don't think he's on a different level. In friendlies, as Opana said, Gungnir shows some extremely entertaining tech, but in the more competitive matches I've seen of his (from online tourneys, presumably) he plays pretty in line with what you'd expect from any other top Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah but how many of these great players is he facing? Is there footage available anywhere? I believe you're one of, if not the most informed on the Japanese Ganondorf scene so I figured I'd ask. I can't really say I agree based on what I've seen and experienced. I will say though his reaction time is fantastic, last time I played I was in a 4 player rotation with him, Rudori, and Papaya, and he only missed like one tech despite there being bad input lag. I'm not saying his reaction time isn't fantastic, or even the best, and while that is extremely important to a Ganondorf main there are many other things that are important that make up us dorf mains.

Well anyway, I think for the time being maybe we should just generalize all the categories, and as Ganondorf mains attend more tourneys and demonstrate their skills we slowly, as a community, start ordering us mains where we feel they should place.

On my channel if I'm not mistaken, that long 30 minute set against a Luigi has a fairly well known player named Aki. Shi-G has sets of Gungnir struggling against other known players, including Ranai and Songun for instance. As far as I know, most of the games he struggles in are effectively against top level players, and as much as we can cite accomplishments other Ganon players have in North America, I think it was recently pretty clearly demonstrated that Japan still largely outclasses the world at this game.

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't know if I'd say they outclass the world. This is what most people thought when the Japanese attended Apex 2012, and they were a bit demystified. Same with the most recent one. I think Japan is extremely strong, but I'd be remiss to say they outclass our strongest regions in NA.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't know if I'd say they outclass the world. This is what most people thought when the Japanese attended Apex 2012, and they were a bit demystified. Same with the most recent one. I think Japan is extremely strong, but I'd be remiss to say they outclass our strongest regions in NA.

The Japanese do outclass us in the west.

If I'm not mistaken, Ally got a measly 7th a few days ago in a tourney in Japan which he left a day after a tournament he dominanted in Toronto.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The Japanese do outclass us in the west.

If I'm not mistaken, Ally got a measly 7th a few days ago in a tourney in Japan which he left a day after a tournament he dominanted in Toronto.

Yeah, but Ally has been placing 5th or 7th in a lot of major events in NA as well. The very tournament you're citing was won by Nairo, after all.

This isn't to say that Gungnir isn't insane--I still think he's the best. But I also think Nairo and ZeRo are at least as good if not better than the top Japanese players.

 

[Vermanubis]

The Japanese do outclass us in the west.

If I'm not mistaken, Ally got a measly 7th a few days ago in a tourney in Japan which he left a day after a tournament he dominanted in Toronto.

The Japanese do outclass us in the west.

If I'm not mistaken, Ally got a measly 7th a few days ago in a tourney in Japan which he left a day after a tournament he dominanted in Toronto.

Ally's not nearly as dominant in Sm4sh as he was in Brawl. And as Jile said, that'd pretty standard placement for him in nationals in NA. Abadango, who routinely gets 1st in Japan, got 7th at Apex. The Japanese are great, but as everyone saw when the Japanese began attending western nationals, everyone thought they were gods, but were handily demystified and brought back down to earth.

 

[KenMeister]

I'd like to see how I stand actually. I have a secondary in Ganon who isn't....terrible I guess. I got some games in with A2ZOMG and would like to see how I rank. I definitely have alot to work on though, namely pressing an advantage when I have one (and not accidentally overextending) and conditioning people in edgeguards.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd like to see how I stand actually. I have a secondary in Ganon who isn't....terrible I guess. I got some games in with A2ZOMG and would like to see how I rank. I definitely have alot to work on though, namely pressing an advantage when I have one (and not accidentally overextending) and conditioning people in edgeguards.

While I've been doing most of the rankings (since I manage the topic) it would be cool to also play some of the other cool Ganon users in the community. We all play different.

 

[Koskinator]

By which I mean
Wifi crew battle!
5 vs 5 3 stocks each!
Rally your girlfriends!
Ganon boards are here to panty raid this sorority.
Figure out your teams here, I will be captain of the Ganon crew, when teams are finalized a start date will be chosen.

So bring the fire you barbie doll flat crotch caitlyn jenner lookin mother ****ers
*mic drop*

 

[Vermanubis]

Any recent news on placings/exploits?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any recent news on placings/exploits?

Nothing that I would know of given I've personally not been tracking anything. Ray_Kalm went to a tourney recently (and presumably did well) but I'm not the one who knows anything about it.

 

[Vermanubis]

Nothing that I would know of given I've personally not been tracking anything. Ray_Kalm went to a tourney recently (and presumably did well) but I'm not the one who knows anything about it.

He's been to several recently if I recall. Ganonthebeast placed 2nd recently, and I haven't seen anything new from Gungnir.

 

[Gunblade789]

Hey everyone. I just was interested to see if I was placed on here yet. Still nothing. I am in the same league as those in S tier tbh. I know that is kinda a bold claim but I mean anyone who has played me can vouch for that and I recently just beat Jribs in tournament with Ganon. He is considered one of if not the best ness on the east coast, taking 2 sets off Vinnie and a game off of Zero. I do have somewhat of a legacy with Ganon coming from brawl so the elder Ganons should know what I bring to the table.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey everyone. I just was interested to see if I was placed on here yet. Still nothing. I am in the same league as those in S tier tbh. I know that is kinda a bold claim but I mean anyone who has played me can vouch for that and I recently just beat Jribs in tournament with Ganon. He is considered one of if not the best ness on the east coast, taking 2 sets off Vinnie and a game off of Zero. I do have somewhat of a legacy with Ganon coming from brawl so the elder Ganons should know what I bring to the table.

I'd be a lot more willing to add you to the list if there was more recent videos or tournament results to judge from. Ganon the Beast for instance has a fair amount of footage of his exploits in Minnesota, and has placed top 8 in some pretty large tournaments with Ganon. Verm and Kalm are noted for placing high consistently in the presence of other PR players who main top tiers and also have appeared frequently on video archives.

I would also argue Ness is by far one of Ganon's easier matchups, to be really honest.

 

[Vermanubis]

Hey everyone. I just was interested to see if I was placed on here yet. Still nothing. I am in the same league as those in S tier tbh. I know that is kinda a bold claim but I mean anyone who has played me can vouch for that and I recently just beat Jribs in tournament with Ganon. He is considered one of if not the best ness on the east coast, taking 2 sets off Vinnie and a game off of Zero. I do have somewhat of a legacy with Ganon coming from brawl so the elder Ganons should know what I bring to the table.

My boy.

You're indeed a good Ganon. But A2's right in almost everything he said. This isn't to diminish your skill, but rather, those in S tier have either brought top 3, 5 or 10 results home consistently, Ganon only, and overcome fairly respectable obstacles. Though I know you have nothing but the best intentions, saying you belong in S tier when the 4 of us have really worked hard to get results and make a name for Ganon without offering something as well somewhat undermines that work. Ganon's a relatively intuitive character at most levels, so one can get a lot of mileage out of him and feel unstoppable... that is, until you have the misfortune of fighting someone who's intensely patient, knows the MU, and forces you to squeeze blood from a stone with concrete fundamentals, consistently good decisions and the ability to force reactions/decisions. That's where Ganonhood is tested, as it were. That's why it's important to see vids of big-name wins, since the more important consideration is how they played, rather than their reputation. If I play M2K, but he has literally no idea how to fight Ganon, then it'd be hard to compare that to someone who's not as reputable as M2K, but played the MU much better.

No one's saying it isn't possible. But A2's right when he says that you have to show some kind of credentials, be it getting top results or vids showing that you're undisputed top-level material. Do you have any recent videos handy you can show us?

 

[Koskinator]

Yay young squire please recount us with the tale of the legacy of gunblade, the ganon no one ever heard of ever

 

[KenMeister]

Where do you guys think Gunblade should place in the tier list as of right now, then?

 

[Vermanubis]

Where do you guys think Gunblade should place in the tier list as of right now, then?

The three most recent vids I found were

Spoiler

Giving my honest opinion here, and I'll edit in details in a few minutes, but... my feeling is mid-to-lower B. GB's my boy, but I can't speak against how I feel.

Here's what I noted:

The Good:

• Generally good spacing

The Maybe-Could-Be-Better:

• Missed a lot of setup opportunities (like after dthrow, dtilt at low%)
• Commited too much (aerial wizkicks, fsmashing shields, etc.)
• A little too aggressive (NAir after UTilt juggle, aerial wizkicks against Keitaro, etc.)
  
  In general, GB's got good spacing and has the Ganon basics down, but doesn't really do that which can make Ganon successful: control movement, cover options, capitalize on bad habits (Keitaro and Dugan did a lot of things which, with the right knowledge of setups, could've ended 'em real quick) and make the most of advantageous positions (lots of times they got away with stuff due to not having to worry about ledgeplay). In general, it just seemed that GB makes good use of Ganon's big hitboxes, but I didn't leave with the feeling that I was watching a deeply experienced Ganon who knew how to deal with tough situations and bring the fullest of the character out. Keitaro and Dugan both played in ways in which Ganon should've slaughtered them.
  
  So yeah, I'm feeling somewhere in mid-B

A2ZOMG , I'm curious about your input. I wanna make sure I'm not being unfair here.

 

[verbatim]

C or B fine. IMO anything A or higher should be a combination of tournament placings + overall performance in the ditto with other comparatively ranked players. If I'm not mistaken, Gunginir's place at the top of S is in large part substantiated by his positive history against everyone else there (side question, have any of us taken a set off of him?).

 

[Vermanubis]

C or B fine. IMO anything A or higher should be a combination of tournament placings + overall performance in the ditto with other comparatively ranked players. If I'm not mistaken, Gunginir's place at the top of S is in large part substantiated by his positive history against everyone else there (side question, have any of us taken a set off of him?).

Though some people's performance in the ditto did influence their placement, as far as I know, we generally try to recognize that a good showing in a WiFi friendly ditto can only say so much. But yeah, Gungnir's place is influenced a lot by those who've dittoed him/his vids.

 

[KenMeister]

Dittos are something yeah, but if you can't play a good chunk of different MUs as well as the other players then it really won't mean a whole lot in the long run.

 

[Opana]

Also how often have you played JRibs? Not to take away from your win, but players of varying skill levels seems to play fairly evenly after they've fought enough.

Also I'll probably have my games streamed at some point, I'm going all Ganon for the most part, although tbh if I come across a skilled Shiek I won't hesitate to bring out another character. Last time I just barely beat this Shiek, while the other actually said he has played Gunblade and knows the MU well(Which I could tell as he played extremely safe). When they do get a stream set up I'll link them either here or the video thread.

 

[Gunblade789]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Sorry if I came off a little strong there. I am just very confident in my abilities. I would say middle of B would be fair tbh. Most of my videos on youtube are pretty trash with Ganon. Also I dont solo main him so that makes a difference. It is hard for me to get results with Ganon because I live in NJ. The like hardest region in smash. So I am surrounded by God tier and top tier talent at every event basically. Not trying to make excuses because git gud. lol. I always lose to Jribs but I never tried Ganon, this was the first time. haha. Thanks Verm for the input. It has been a long time since we stole souls in the Ganon Gauntlet every year at Apex. =]

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Sorry if I came off a little strong there. I am just very confident in my abilities. I would say middle of B would be fair tbh. Most of my videos on youtube are pretty trash with Ganon. Also I dont solo main him so that makes a difference. It is hard for me to get results with Ganon because I live in NJ. The like hardest region in smash. So I am surrounded by God tier and top tier talent at every event basically. Not trying to make excuses because git gud. lol. I always lose to Jribs but I never tried Ganon, this was the first time. haha. Thanks Verm for the input. It has been a long time since we stole souls in the Ganon Gauntlet every year at Apex. =]

My area is also pretty ridiculous at times too, so it's pretty hard to do well with Ganon in SoCal (which under any circumstances, strictly keeps me from ranking myself higher than B tier either way). And I apologize in advance for not having any tournament sets of my Ganon recorded. Usually I place around 13th or so in my 30some man locals, usually getting eliminated by people who are on the PR, or were considered for it.

The three most recent vids I found were

Spoiler

Giving my honest opinion here, and I'll edit in details in a few minutes, but... my feeling is mid-to-lower B. GB's my boy, but I can't speak against how I feel.

Here's what I noted:

The Good:

• Generally good spacing

The Maybe-Could-Be-Better:

• Missed a lot of setup opportunities (like after dthrow, dtilt at low%)
• Commited too much (aerial wizkicks, fsmashing shields, etc.)
• A little too aggressive (NAir after UTilt juggle, aerial wizkicks against Keitaro, etc.)
  
  In general, GB's got good spacing and has the Ganon basics down, but doesn't really do that which can make Ganon successful: control movement, cover options, capitalize on bad habits (Keitaro and Dugan did a lot of things which, with the right knowledge of setups, could've ended 'em real quick) and make the most of advantageous positions (lots of times they got away with stuff due to not having to worry about ledgeplay). In general, it just seemed that GB makes good use of Ganon's big hitboxes, but I didn't leave with the feeling that I was watching a deeply experienced Ganon who knew how to deal with tough situations and bring the fullest of the character out. Keitaro and Dugan both played in ways in which Ganon should've slaughtered them.
  
  So yeah, I'm feeling somewhere in mid-B

A2ZOMG , I'm curious about your input. I wanna make sure I'm not being unfair here.

Frankly I trust your analysis, and looking over his videos, I can't say I really disagree.

While he could play neutral fairly decently, I definitely felt like he played negative states pretty poorly and had somewhat limited followup knowledge outside of fairly generic read situations (which to his credit, he had good execution for).

That being said, I think I'll rank him lower B for now. Some of his tournament performance is admirable, though I think when I reflect on wha I see from him and my own playstyle, I feel we both have a lot to learn in a practical sense to take Ganon to the next level.

 

[MGK]

Hello Ganondorf mains, I was just interested to see what you guys think of my Ganondorf and where I sit in the Ganondorf tier list.

Just some background information about myself, I've been playing competitively for about 3 years now starting with PM and joined the smash scene for a little over a year. I play Ganondorf in all games as he is my man and love him to bits, I just can't see myself playing anyone else if Ganondorf is in the select scene. I live in Australia, Melbourne, we have some great talent here, such as V (Villyness), Attila, Tibs, Earl, Viva, Extra, Jei and many more. The best I have ever come in tournament is 9th / 49 with Ganondorf and am now sitting around the 25th / 33rd with 100 + players each monthly.

Here is my Online stats: http://qldsmash.com/Players/VIC?p=MGK

Sadly, I have no matches from my tournaments but I have a few Online matches. Any feed back would be awesome and much appreciated.

Matches

These 2 matches are Online against V (Villyness), V is in my eyes one of the best Villagers in the world as she is known of taking a game off of Zero in an Online tournament back in the 3DS days and keeps improving ever since.

These 2 matches are against an amazing Yoshi known as Nikes. Just like me, he plays one character in all the games and he is defiantly the hardest Yoshi I have fought in smash 4.

Thank you for your time.

Edit: I have other matches I can upload if you guys need more info on my play style.

 

[Koskinator]

The real question is


How many matches could those players upload of them destroying you?

 

[MGK]

The real question is


How many matches could those players upload of them destroying you?

Haha, true. With V, it took a while to learn the Villager MU but after 2 months or so, we now go 60 / 40 in her favor.

As for Nikes, I had a fair amount of Yoshi MU experience and took about 45 mins to learn his play style and we were going 50 / 50.

 

[Opana]

So I have adjusted to my controller, and took 1st in singles and 2nd in doubles. Just wanted to let you know I think the bracket reset I got will be uploaded, it was vs. a D3. I also beat the Shiek who had beaten me last time(Double eliminated, very solid and coll dude though) which made me very happy tbh. Oh and I went all Ganondorf, I have proven to myself that he is worth keeping.

Dubs
http://challonge.com/ESEsmashdowndoubles

Singles
http://challonge.com/esesmashdownsingles1

Previous Tourney Singles(Winner was actually Calm)
http://challonge.com/fountainsofdreams1

And I will be attending another this Wednesday, wish me luck.

Also, when works for the online tourney A2ZOMG ?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Opana

While I obviously I'm only mildly salty you don't have vids of your exploits here, that's pretty fine stuff you got there! I'm aiming to get local results like that to prove I'm reaching the next level.

Thursday (today) or Friday are possible, but I'm also working on homework on and off, so suggesting a time on those days would help me.

 

[Swoops]

Seeing as how everybody is talking up their placement on the tier list, I'll hop in and say I should be higher.

How is Koskinator higher than me?! Seriously, that's like my only gripe. You can even put me in the bottom tier, just put me one place above Kosk and my mission will be complete. Dude is a scrub.

 

[Opana]

A2ZOMG

We were going to upload all of grands but we forgot to save most of set 1 lol, so they should be uploading the reset at some point. I used a lot of dark dive and got quite a few kills off of that, not just in grands but in general. The crowd went crazy when I got dair->dd uppercut as a kill lol.

Anyway I think I'll be free around 3pm today if that works.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG

We were going to upload all of grands but we forgot to save most of set 1 lol, so they should be uploading the reset at some point. I used a lot of dark dive and got quite a few kills off of that, not just in grands but in general. The crowd went crazy when I got dair->dd uppercut as a kill lol.

Anyway I think I'll be free around 3pm today if that works.

So basically about 3 hours from when you last posted that message? I'll try my best to make that.

Seeing as how everybody is talking up their placement on the tier list, I'll hop in and say I should be higher.

How is Koskinator higher than me?! Seriously, that's like my only gripe. You can even put me in the bottom tier, just put me one place above Kosk and my mission will be complete. Dude is a scrub.

The reminder is appreciated, and your tournament performance impresses me.

*edits list*

 

[Koskinator]

Seeing as how everybody is talking up their placement on the tier list, I'll hop in and say I should be higher.

How is Koskinator higher than me?! Seriously, that's like my only gripe. You can even put me in the bottom tier, just put me one place above Kosk and my mission will be complete. Dude is a scrub.

Ya lets ditto then noob

 

[Swoops]

So basically about 3 hours from when you last posted that message? I'll try my best to make that.
The reminder is appreciated, and your tournament performance impresses me.

*edits list*

<3

Ya lets ditto then noob

Sorry, I don't ditto noobs that are below me on the tier list. MUAHAHAHAHA

...but seriously I can probably play tonight :3

 

[Koskinator]

I hope ur anus is resilient
cuz im goin in hard
dry
no spit son

 

[Opana]

lmao

I am free for longer than expected but I need like 15min. If you need time or can't make it lmk