Hierarchies of Power: The Ganon Community Tier List! (Updated October 8th 2017)

[Ray_Kalm]

@ Koskinator We should get in some games again soon. The lag left a lot to be angered about.

You've improved and are playing very well though.

 

[Koskinator]

Thanks man and yeah the lag definetly affected both of our play, we'll have to try another time. You're still as good as ever

 

[Z1GMA]

We should get in some games again soon. The lag left a lot to be angered about.

Hey, that's my line, Kalm!

 

[Opana]

There's a chance we could play in this tourney actually, that'd be cool.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Kyogokudo looks like he should be steadily gaining rank.
Seriously, that Boy just keeps improving.

 

[_Magus_]

I'm back, (again ) and ready to improve my rank! I'm open for games tonight if any of you gents are up for it.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm back, (again ) and ready to improve my rank! I'm open for games tonight if any of you gents are up for it.

If you're willing to go 3DS, I can play you.

 

[_Magus_]

If you're willing to go 3DS, I can play you.

Sorry man. I wish, but I just don't play enough on 3ds. I'm not comfortable with the controller at all. :/

 

[MezzoMe]

I cuold try, but distance might be an issue.

 

[Garioshi]

bump
victoriajustice should not be that high up based on personal experiences
i need to get a gc adaptor

 

[Vermanubis]

bump
victoriajustice should not be that high up based on personal experiences
i need to get a gc adaptor

The list needs some revision in general, I think. I've not seen much community involvement in it. In other words, as far as I understand (and I may be wrong), this list is largely the reflection of a small handful of people.

As for my personal thoughts on things on needed changes, I'm still on the "opinions + results" side of things, but at this point, I don't think there's much delineation between Gungnir and the other top contenders. I say this both having faithfully watched his most recent stuff and being mindful of the absence of his results.

 

[Opana]

Yeah I think it could use some changes. I don't think tourney results factor into this enough, and I don't think mirrors should be apart of this at all actually assuming they are. I feel like once these mirrors get to a certain level anyone can take it, I mean it often boils down to decisive read ands that's the game. Not that I'm against that, I mean I main Ganondorf, but I just don't like a match flip flopping too much. A lot of the time it seems percentage doesn't matter much lol.

I think tourney results should take priority, followed by notable wins over players, experience vs them, and then vids. I think it'd be better if more people were in on this too as Verm said, it'd make it easier on a2 I think as well.

Also if it matters Acid said he thinks I'm right under Vex, not sure if he knows too much about other dorf players though.

 

[Sykkamorre]

From what I know, A2's been factoring in MU experience to these rankings where he can.

Dunno if that includes people's performance with their secondaries or not.

 

[Garioshi]

I have bad tourney results because my scene is full of tier whores.

 

[Vermanubis]

I have bad tourney results because my scene is full of tier whores.

That's the one reason why I think videos are really important. Regional disparities can have a pretty dramatic influence on results, e.g. if you meet with Sheik every other match and place below someone in whose region the top players use characters with agreeable MUs.

All the same though, just beat 'em. The kinds of MUs you come up against are necessary to know for comparisons like the ones here, but don't let bad MUs distract you from personal accountability, now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

From what I know, A2's been factoring in MU experience to these rankings where he can.

Dunno if that includes people's performance with their secondaries or not.

It depends, but yeah. Where I can see matchup knowledge, that's a pretty big factor in how I assess skill.

The list needs some revision in general, I think. I've not seen much community involvement in it. In other words, as far as I understand (and I may be wrong), this list is largely the reflection of a small handful of people.

As for my personal thoughts on things on needed changes, I'm still on the "opinions + results" side of things, but at this point, I don't think there's much delineation between Gungnir and the other top contenders. I say this both having faithfully watched his most recent stuff and being mindful of the absence of his results.

On the subject of top Ganon contenders, I also believe there's a few others who are better than @ Ray_Kalm , you probably being one of them, though Ray has more results admittedly.

Ganon the Beast is almost certainly within the highest of tiers, and while Ray may disagree, I would honestly say it's fairly obvious his fundamentals (especially his spacing) are stronger than Ray's, though I would somewhat prefer having more footage to judge given the inability to actually contact him.

 

[Vermanubis]

It depends, but yeah. Where I can see matchup knowledge, that's a pretty big factor in how I assess skill.
On the subject of top Ganon contenders, I also believe there's a few others who are better than @ Ray_Kalm , you probably being one of them, though Ray has more results admittedly.

Ganon the Beast is almost certainly within the highest of tiers, and while Ray may disagree, I would honestly say it's fairly obvious his fundamentals (especially his spacing) are stronger than Ray's, though I would somewhat prefer having more footage to judge given the inability to actually contact him.

I'd comment as well on the specific arrangement, but I always feel a bit funny commenting on the upper strata, since any arrangement thereof involves me, and it just feels like a weird conflict of interest.

I can say though that GtB is impressive. He's certainly a top Ganon from what I've seen. Where he sits among us, I don't know, but he's definitely an S tier. I'd like to see more footage of him too, though.

 

[Swoops]

I think Vex and GtB deserve to be higher on the list for sure.

Last time I saw Vex play was vs JTails and he showed a lot of competence. However, I haven't seen him play since then. From what I understand he's constantly playing ladder?

I've watched quite a bit of GtB and seeing him play, he is very solid overall. To be honest though it seems like he plays in a very underwhelming region. One of the few other solid players there is Triple Rs Kirby. Comparing it to Ray Kalm and Verm's scene would be very silly :/

 

[Opana]

Positive tourney results

Consistently plays well

Has taken games/sets off skilled players

Others who have fought them have given positive feedback on their skills

Skill is apparent in their footage

Was written out better but gpad glitched out smh. I think a list like this could be used and depending on how many they fit they go into __________ tier. We don't need to use this list but I think having one might help. Also I don't think we should worry about where we place lowers untl the higher tiers since it seems it'd be difficult to gauge everyone's skill, especially if they're not too active. Maybe some high spots could be shared too, if two or more Ganons are seemingly even. Feel free to ignore this if it's not too great an idea though.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Seems decent enough, I guess.

Unfortunately, those without tourney scenes remotely nearby will have a tougher time going up in ranking, but I guess that's just how it goes D:

 

[Vermanubis]

I think Vex and GtB deserve to be higher on the list for sure.

Last time I saw Vex play was vs JTails and he showed a lot of competence. However, I haven't seen him play since then. From what I understand he's constantly playing ladder?

I've watched quite a bit of GtB and seeing him play, he is very solid overall. To be honest though it seems like he plays in a very underwhelming region. One of the few other solid players there is Triple Rs Kirby. Comparing it to Ray Kalm and Verm's scene would be very silly :/

I have to agree with Swoops here. As far as I understand, Minnesota isn't a terribly strong region. Though he demonstrates really solid play in his sets, and his opponents definitely aren't pushovers, I think it'd be a bit naive to say he comes up against serious resistance. I watched a few sets of his going up against OoR players who seemed to know the MU, and while he still put on a great show, the dominance wasn't quite there.

Positive tourney results

Consistently plays well

Has taken games/sets off skilled players

Others who have fought them have given positive feedback on their skills

Skill is apparent in their footage

Was written out better but gpad glitched out smh. I think a list like this could be used and depending on how many they fit they go into __________ tier. We don't need to use this list but I think having one might help. Also I don't think we should worry about where we place lowers untl the higher tiers since it seems it'd be difficult to gauge everyone's skill, especially if they're not too active. Maybe some high spots could be shared too, if two or more Ganons are seemingly even. Feel free to ignore this if it's not too great an idea though.

I think these're fine criteria. And I definitely agree that S tier should be reserved for those with tournament results. That's the tough thing with Gungnir though. He has no results, but it's tough to say he's not running with the top players. That being said, I think for the moment, the King of Evil rank should be dissolved and the S tiers should all be, until further notice, placed in no particular order until something is incontroveribly demonstrated worthy of separation from the rest. As of right now, I don't think any of them, myself included, have done that. We've yet to overcome any truly tremendous obstacles.

Seems decent enough, I guess.

Unfortunately, those without tourney scenes remotely nearby will have a tougher time going up in ranking, but I guess that's just how it goes D:

Aye, but that's precisely why there needs to be community involvement so that we can follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter, so to speak. That is, because of regional disparities, it'd be tough to codify stringent guidelines for placement, so exceptions can always be made.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Aye, but that's precisely why there needs to be community involvement so that we can follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter, so to speak. That is, because of regional disparities, it'd be tough to codify stringent guidelines for placement, so exceptions can always be made.

Verm, did I ever mention how hard you stir up my loins? I couldn't agree more.

/Creep.

 

[Opana]

Is it bad I actually don't think Gungnir is the best? I think he definitely has the best tech skill but Ia lot of what he's capable of seems impractical, I mean I haven't seen him implement too much tech skill outside of the mirror tbh. That's not to say I don't think he's S rank, which I do, but I agree there is no clear top dorf atm.

I think if someone is clearly skilled and widely recognized as such, they could potentially work their way into S. I wouldn't give them anyone without results the crown though. I mean, I don't want to alienate players, and I fall into the lacking results area too, I just want this to be as accurate as possible.

As for GanonTheBeast, results aside I'd say he's a solid A. I haven't seen much, but I recall seeing him vs a Sheik and the Sheik seemed unfamiliar with the MU. I don't think any Sheik that knows the mu would allow him to get away with that ledge camping that I saw tbh. He's solid though, no denying that. I think adom is a contender for A as well, he's taken games off DKWill, Slavoslav, and Keitaro iirc, and while it was wifi I do think there is something to be said for that. Aside from that he just seems really solid fundamentally, some of the best choke use I've personally been the victim of lol. I can't speak for GTB but adom seems pretty consistent as well, more so than more for sure. Honestly I feel very inconsistent, I feel like some days I play at a top dorf level and others at a B.

 

[Vermanubis]

Verm, did I ever mention how hard you stir up my loins? I couldn't agree more.

/Creep.

Embarrass

Spoiler

Ganon makes a maelstrom of all he passes, including loins

Is it bad I actually don't think Gungnir is the best? I think he definitely has the best tech skill but Ia lot of what he's capable of seems impractical, I mean I haven't seen him implement too much tech skill outside of the mirror tbh. That's not to say I don't think he's S rank, which I do, but I agree there is no clear top dorf atm.

I think if someone is clearly skilled and widely recognized as such, they could potentially work their way into S. I wouldn't give them anyone without results the crown though. I mean, I don't want to alienate players, and I fall into the lacking results area too, I just want this to be as accurate as possible.

As for GanonTheBeast, results aside I'd say he's a solid A. I haven't seen much, but I recall seeing him vs a Sheik and the Sheik seemed unfamiliar with the MU. I don't think any Sheik that knows the mu would allow him to get away with that ledge camping that I saw tbh. He's solid though, no denying that. I think adom is a contender for A as well, he's taken games off DKWill, Slavoslav, and Keitaro iirc, and while it was wifi I do think there is something to be said for that. Aside from that he just seems really solid fundamentally, some of the best choke use I've personally been the victim of lol. I can't speak for GTB but adom seems pretty consistent as well, more so than more for sure. Honestly I feel very inconsistent, I feel like some days I play at a top dorf level and others at a B.

I agree with the Gungnir. He's always impressed me with his techs and shenaniganons, but I don't think I've ever seen how he operates in a staked competitive setting. Like you said, many of the things I've seen him go for in friendlies or in mirrors I don't think would fly so well otherwise. Still a fantastic player, but most of us know that the difference between a tourney and a friendly can't be understated.

As for GtB, I could sway either way with him being A or S. He gives S tier performances in some of his vids, but like Swoops and you've pointed out, his competition is difficult to gauge as high-quality. In the vids I mentioned, where he fought OoR players, he gave betwee an A-S feel. I wouldn't complain if he landed in either.

 

[Opana]

I know I'm known for playing really aggressive but in serious games I play much safer so I know what you mean. I think friendlies are good for seeing how well they understand the game and a rough gauge of what they're capable of. Speaking of friendlies I wish I never busted my ds man, I miss playing you Verm lol. I took from you more than anyone tbh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zrtTPDCWcc

I believe this is Gungnir. He lost the set but played it about as well as you can, I have a good deal of exp with MM from Scatt and iirc there's not too much more he could've done. It's the most recent set I could find at the time and it still is. Just wanted to drop this by here in case it helps, my internet is lagging so I can't rewatch though. It appears to be an online tourney but it's better than nothing, idk how much better than say an anther's game this is though.

I haven't seen much of GtB, only a bit of his set with what seemed to be a skilled but reckless Sheik. I'd be cool with him in either as well though.

Another potential contender for A/S I'm assuming is Vex, haven't seen anything of him yet but I've heard he's great. I think he mains DK though, unsure all around here though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think GtB not only preforms below average but as others have pointed out, his scene isn't comparable to those that others have.

I believe in Ontario, I have the toughest competition.

And in terms of skillplay, I think I preform above all except Gungnir. Gungnir is really really good and smart.

 

[Vermanubis]

I think GtB not only preforms below average but as others have pointed out, his scene isn't comparable to those that others have.

I believe in Ontario, I have the toughest competition.

And in terms of skillplay, I think I preform above all except Gungnir. Gungnir is really really good and smart.

This is why we need community involvement, since we'd all naturally want to vouch for ourselves. In terms of competition, it's hard to gauge whose is toughest and furthermore, what we mean by "toughest" -- a constant string of bad MUs, really good players who know the MU, or a mixture of both?

Beyond that, like I mentioned before, I don't think any of us have proven ourselves over the next. Your and my results are good, but not enough to separate us from one another. GtB we need to see more of. Gungnir is great, but we need to see if he can succeed where we've yet to.

 

[Opana]

Hopefully I can make it out soon, I have a strong scene afaik in tristate so I think it'd be good in helping place me more accurately.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This is why we need community involvement, since we'd all naturally want to vouch for ourselves. In terms of competition, it's hard to gauge whose is toughest and furthermore, what we mean by "toughest" -- a constant string of bad MUs, really good players who know the MU, or a mixture of both?

Beyond that, like I mentioned before, I don't think any of us have proven ourselves over the next. Your and my results are good, but not enough to separate us from one another. GtB we need to see more of. Gungnir is great, but we need to see if he can succeed where we've yet to.

Kalm I think is the most battle-tested Dorf, while Gungnir is the most technical by a substantial margin. A lot of the footage I've seen of GtB has been with customs on, so he might be stronger in that meta than some of the other Dorfs. It's hard to really judge when all the top Ganons tend to be pretty spread out and they generally don't go to the major nationals.

 

[Vermanubis]

Kalm I think is the most battle-tested Dorf, while Gungnir is the most technical by a substantial margin. A lot of the footage I've seen of GtB has been with customs on, so he might be stronger in that meta than some of the other Dorfs. It's hard to really judge when all the top Ganons tend to be pretty spread out and they generally don't go to the major nationals.

I'd say we all have our unique strengths, which, yeah, is why it's difficult to judge upon one merit alone who's above the other. The common thread amongst us though, is that we all perform well, but not well enough. Kalm and I have placed well, but we've been stopped by things we shouldn't be stopped by.

As for Gungnir, he's just a mystery. I don't think his skill level will suddenly drop upon entry to an in-person tourney, but almost all the matches I've seen him in, he had the good fortune of fighting highly skilled, but highly reckless and aggressive opponents (vs. GN, Yamanyon, for example). These kinds of opponents aren't the ones a Ganon needs to worry about. Not to say he isn't capable of handling them -- just that I haven't yet seen it from him.

In this meta, I think the flame which forges a Ganon is the ability to circumvent extremely defensive or passive play.

Opana As far as I know, tristate, SoCal and Florida are the strongest Sm4sh regions in NA.

 

[Opana]

That's good to hear, thanks. I just played for around two hours with Koolaid, and while most games were pretty close I only managed to beat his Pac Man twice. He's got a nice variety of characters though. I'm gonna upload a few vids at some point in the vid thread.

I haven't played Ray or seen to much of him in a good while so I can't comment on his placing really.

 

[Vermanubis]

That's good to hear, thanks. I just played for around two hours with Koolaid, and while most games were pretty close I only managed to beat his Pac Man twice. He's got a nice variety of characters though. I'm gonna upload a few vids at some point in the vid thread.

I haven't played Ray or seen to much of him in a good while so I can't comment on his placing really.

There's a name I haven't heard in a while. I used to play Koolaid sometimes in Brawl tournaments when I still lived out east. He's definitely a good player.

 

[jmanup85]

Is it bad I actually don't think Gungnir is the best? I think he definitely has the best tech skill but Ia lot of what he's capable of seems impractical, I mean I haven't seen him implement too much tech skill outside of the mirror tbh. That's not to say I don't think he's S rank, which I do, but I agree there is no clear top dorf atm.

I think if someone is clearly skilled and widely recognized as such, they could potentially work their way into S. I wouldn't give them anyone without results the crown though. I mean, I don't want to alienate players, and I fall into the lacking results area too, I just want this to be as accurate as possible.

As for GanonTheBeast, results aside I'd say he's a solid A. I haven't seen much, but I recall seeing him vs a Sheik and the Sheik seemed unfamiliar with the MU. I don't think any Sheik that knows the mu would allow him to get away with that ledge camping that I saw tbh. He's solid though, no denying that. I think adom is a contender for A as well, he's taken games off DKWill, Slavoslav, and Keitaro iirc, and while it was wifi I do think there is something to be said for that. Aside from that he just seems really solid fundamentally, some of the best choke use I've personally been the victim of lol. I can't speak for GTB but adom seems pretty consistent as well, more so than more for sure. Honestly I feel very inconsistent, I feel like some days I play at a top dorf level and others at a B.

Gungnir is great but I also don't believe he's the best. Results say that the best Ganon is Kalm since he has the solid placings right now. I agree with Verm to dissolve the King of Evil tier and make S tier have the best ones for now. The only way to even make King of Evil tier right now would be if one among us beats Zero in a tourney set. I'm in Florida and about to start going to touneys so I should have results soon.

 

[Opana]

There's a name I haven't heard in a while. I used to play Koolaid sometimes in Brawl tournaments when I still lived out east. He's definitely a good player.

I think he's more known as Chef Pac now, a bit confused myself honestly. They were honestly some of the best games I've had. Sadly the ones I saved are too long except for one where I won and I'd feel wrong to only put that one up. Maybe I can do a phone style recording again...

I will make sure to watch more of Ray's tourney vids though, I'm sure they're entertaining as well.

 

[Garioshi]

Yeah, VictoriaJustice is not C-tier. I 5-0'd him yesterday.

 

[A2ZOMG]

For now I'm moving -VictoriaJustice- to around _Magus_'s position, as last I observed of their playstyles, while they might be comfortable with Ganon, they definitely have some notable bad habits to work out, especially in playing negative states and making more intelligent techchasing decisions.

Aside from the fact Gungnir lacks notable recent tournament results, there's two reasons I think he's still overall the best. One being his reaction time, the other being his sheer creativity. There legitimately isn't another Ganon player that has his level of precise creativity, and you can see this not only in his excellent punishes, but the stuff he labs. No other Ganon I think labs things nearly as efficiently as Gungnir, the way things are right now, and even to this day he continues to produce technology (even if it's just matchup specific tricks) that is ahead of our metagames.

So not just his sheer skill, but what he demonstrates he knows and contributes for us, he's simply the best of us.

That being said, it's up for debate, so I dissolved the "King of Evil" tier for now.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Any specific reason for your decision to bump Vermanubis ahead of me?

I have the best tournament results and very notable top players in my scene, and as I said before, this is what should matter the most. Winning and making it far in tournaments takes a great amount of skills, and should be the first thing to consider, even before the tech and lab work of Gungnir.

As from what I remember, you think that he may be more skillfull than me, but that was just you.

I'm disliking the way you're starting to handle things, A2. Let's not allow personal preference get in way of things here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any specific reason for your decision to bump Vermanubis ahead of me?

I have the best tournament results and very notable top players in my scene, and as I said before, this is what should matter the most. Winning and making it far in tournaments takes a great amount of skills, and should be the first thing to consider, even before the tech and lab work of Gungnir.

As from what I remember, you think that he may be more skillfull than me, but that was just you.

I'm disliking the way you're starting to handle things, A2. Let's not allow personal preference get in way of things here.

It would be pretty simple to just grade things on tournament results, but I don't think that by itself tells the whole story. That's part of why I don't entirely decide placements strictly on results when within tiers.

That being said, things are always subject to change to represent current affairs, and for now given I can't deny there is mostly a lack of anyone else doing much in tournament with Ganon aside from Ganon the Beast (whose regional difficulty doesn't compare), I guess I could move you to the top for now.

 

[Vermanubis]

Any specific reason for your decision to bump Vermanubis ahead of me?

I have the best tournament results and very notable top players in my scene, and as I said before, this is what should matter the most. Winning and making it far in tournaments takes a great amount of skills, and should be the first thing to consider, even before the tech and lab work of Gungnir.

As from what I remember, you think that he may be more skillfull than me, but that was just you.

I'm disliking the way you're starting to handle things, A2. Let's not allow personal preference get in way of things here.

I don't think there's a specific order in the S tier at the moment.

On the topic of results, results do matter, and you certainly have the most to show of us in this regard. But as a few of us mentioned before, numbers themselves are hard to codify Take my 3 tourneys for example. My first one I only beat 2 truly notable players to make it to 3rd. My second one I only had to beat 1 since my bracket was easy. My third one I beat 3. This is why videos are so important. Point being that numbers can be deceptive.

As for notable players, imo, this is best left to others to determine. It's in any given person's interest to overappraise their competition. Having lots of top players is good, but top players being present doesn't mean much if one 1) doesn't fight them and 2) doesn't beat them. Again why vids are so important.

In my appraisal, if it's worth anything, the top Ganons all have something to show for their skill, all in varying degrees and areas, but no one of us has demonstrated anything significant over the others, in my opinion. You beating Yoh, Ally or Holy would be a good example of jumping those hurdles. Me beating Jamnt0ast, Shiny or iCraq would be my example. We've beaten some of our good players, but not our top players.

I feel that a lot of us with few exceptions are naturally eager to climb the ranks, and in doing so, might sometimes be willing to find creative ways to overstate our achievements (e.g. I beat ____ who placed 4th [but isn't really very good]). The separation comes when one of us starts legitimately beating our top players. Ganon's capable of it, even if marginally. We should strive not to scrape the bottom of the barrel to climb to the top on technicalities, but genuinely expect more of ourselves before definitively stratifying ourselves.

 

[Koskinator]

I am part of the 25% that voted for someone else