Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

[Vipermoon]

I don't feel like triple posting in the general thread so I'll post this here. The description in the video explains it all, but basically there is an unused sound file with Marth's voice actor saying "Let's dance!" in Engrish. This is what it would be like if it was used for say... Dancing Blade?

 

[DariusM27]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mOT774xmIqw

This is yet another Grand Finals with Mr E and Nairo, one week after Nairo beat Mr E in the last tourny with falco.

So...what did Mr E do well, and what should he have done to have had a better shot at victory?

Thanks

Just watched it again, first impressions - I liked the nair to fsmash at low percent, that worked out well for him.

Really, it was a close game until the second stock. Mr E made some really strange mistakes, like up b recovery right into the falco fire recovery.

I saw a lot of whiffed grabs and dancing blade.

The main problem I saw was that Mr E never reset the neutral, meaning he always came at falco. That isn't going to work against Nairo, but rather it will give him the advantage. And give the advantage to any character with better frame data than marth, which is most characters.

However, if he backed off of Nairo, and then tried to vary up his approaches while trying to incorporate surprise approaches, traps, spacing the neutral well, and punish Falco's approach, then I think he would have had a better chance.

Marth simply doesn't have the stats needed for super aggressive play, like Sheik or capt falcon does. He is fluid and reactionary.

I don't know if sh ad would have been a good option in this match, but a good substitute would be stalling the short hop before attack. Just a few thoughts.

 

[Vipermoon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mOT774xmIqw

This is yet another Grand Finals with Mr E and Nairo, one week after Nairo beat Mr E in the last tourny with falco.

So...what did Mr E do well, and what should he have done to have had a better shot at victory?

Thanks

Keitaro beat Mr. E in Grand Finals with Falco, not Nairo

Nairo did Nairo stuff, neither Mr. E or his character could handle it. His should have gone Sheik again but I know he wanted to experiment.

Also, that should have been a tipper Fsmash

 

[DariusM27]

Keitaro beat Mr. E in Grand Finals with Falco, not Nairo

Nairo did Nairo stuff, neither Mr. E or his character could handle it. His should have gone Sheik again but I know he wanted to experiment.

Also, that should have been a tipper Fsmash

Well, clearly Mr E didn't handle it.
I don't think Marth is very out tierd by Falco. I have played many good Falco's and I usually win.
I think Mr E was predictable, way off his game, and easily punished.
The question I had for the "video analysis" page was, what could Marth have done better. We should at least try to analyze it.

 

[Ffamran]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mOT774xmIqw

This is yet another Grand Finals with Mr E and Nairo, one week after Nairo beat Mr E in the last tourny with falco.

So...what did Mr E do well, and what should he have done to have had a better shot at victory?

Thanks

Just watched it again, first impressions - I liked the nair to fsmash at low percent, that worked out well for him.

Really, it was a close game until the second stock. Mr E made some really strange mistakes, like up b recovery right into the falco fire recovery.

I saw a lot of whiffed grabs and dancing blade.

The main problem I saw was that Mr E never reset the neutral, meaning he always came at falco. That isn't going to work against Nairo, but rather it will give him the advantage. And give the advantage to any character with better frame data than marth, which is most characters.

However, if he backed off of Nairo, and then tried to vary up his approaches while trying to incorporate surprise approaches, traps, spacing the neutral well, and punish Falco's approach, then I think he would have had a better chance.

Marth simply doesn't have the stats needed for super aggressive play, like Sheik or capt falcon does. He is fluid and reactionary.

I don't know if sh ad would have been a good option in this match, but a good substitute would be stalling the short hop before attack. Just a few thoughts.

I don't know why they do this, but Rush Hour Smash usually has only grand finals and sometimes winners and losers finals. The other videos are on RHS Tournament Videos. So, this video of Mr. E's Marth vs. Nairo's Robin should also be considered: http://youtu.be/rlsJlsrhKDE.

My 2 cents is that it's probably Nairo and not Falco.

Spoiler: Obligatory Falco information

The problem with Falco is that while he has a projectile, it's not a good one. You don't have to be afraid of it as much as say, Luigi, Robin, or Sheik's, but that doesn't mean you can bumrush in since Falco could just Reflector you back if he really needs space or use the fact you're in his zone, his game. The presence of a projectile and the fact he can always slap a 3% on you from afar is always there. That being said, it's much better than going in and letting him rack up at least 9% just from one hit or a full multi-hit hit. Add in his ability to pretty much combo from any move and that 9% becomes an 18%, a 27%, a 36%, a 45%, and so on and so forth. At the ledge, Falco can and will kill you at ~100% with a fresh, clean Bair, a Bair that on-reaction, is one of the fastest and strongest punishes in the game. It doesn't have range like Luigi, Samus, ZSS, or even Fox's, but theirs are about twice as slow. And what's range when you decide it's a good idea to be right next to him?

Treat Falco almost like Ganondorf if he had Fox's combo ability or Fox if he had Ganondorf's power. You don't want to be in range of either Fox or Ganondorf, so you don't want to be in Falco's. You don't want to be hit by Ganondorf, so you don't want to be hit by Falco. And you don't want to be comboed by Fox, so you don't want to be comboed by Falco. Here's the thing, though: you have a sword, so make use of it. Falco has the same problems as Fox and Ganondorf. Like Fox, he's light, so he can't take too much of a beating. Like Ganondorf, Falco is slow-moving, so, if Falco starts running in, then that means he wants something and it's easier to react to than Sonic, Captain Falcon, or Fox running in. And like the both of them, they're fast fallers, so they're prone to combos and gimps. Also, like the both of them, they lack significant disjoints. In the case of Falco, his only disjoints outside of Blaster and Reflector is a small one on Fair and technically the landing hit, but I think that's the same size as his Fair hitbox, but because of the animation, it looks much bigger and Dtilt which is about a third longer than what the trail shows. Fair used in neutral and on-stage is dangerous because of the landing lag, so don't expect that much, but Dtilt is a common tool since it's safe on-shield and can setup or kill.

Also, Falco is a basic character. That isn't to say he's a simple character, but he just doesn't have any tricks, any insane setups, or anything that other characters can't do or excel at. So, don't worry about some super secret setup that lets Falco kill you at 39% or something that should make you feel very confused like you don't know what to expect. He's not Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, or Rosalina and he's not Fox, Luigi, Meta Knight, Ryu, or ZSS. So, if you lose, it's kind of on you. The most Falco has are frame trap Uairs, back hit of Uair to Bair, ledge cancel jab to Nair, and frame canceled Nair to whatever which when you think about it, other characters have too like Captain Falcon can frame trap with his Uair, ZSS can also confirm a Bair with her back hit of Uair, Little Mac can ledge cancel jab to Up Special, and his frame cancel Nair is kind of like how Fox would fast fall Fair to setup, but in this case, it's actually involving a frame cancel to land without landing lag like how Bowser Jr. can land without landing lag from his Dair. This also means he's not Ganondorf who relies on reads and punishes to do anything; Falco's just versatile in a sense all moves have purpose which incidentally, almost all of his combo moves are kill moves - at around 150% is when pretty much all of his moves just meld together into kill mode time. Before that, around 100% to 120% is when Dtilt, Side Smash, and Bair start killing and Up Smash gets close to killing while moves like Nair, Uair, Fair, and Utilt start killing the closer you are to the blast zone. Edgeguarding, something Falco excels at mostly through his options and just how his aerials work; Bair just straightup kills you, Nair and Fair gimp or kill you, Dair's the obligatory slow spike, and Uair's probably not going to do a thing, but if he tips you with the late, front hit, he can send you into the blast zone if you're far enough and if not, with the initial, back hit, he can confirm a Bair from it which will definitely send you in. On the ledge, expect active frame abuse with Utilt and Up Smash.

As for his previous misadventure with Falco, I think it was on Mr. E and not Keitaro and Falco. Why? In both grand and winner finals, Mr. E SD'd several times and made mistakes like mis-spacing his Shield Breaker to kill Keitaro when he broke his shield. In my opinion, Keitaro shouldn't have won either set if Mr. E was playing on point. That is not to say Keitaro or Mr. E is a weaker or stronger player than the other or Marth or Falco is a weaker or stronger character than the other and that Keitaro couldn't have won if Mr. E didn't SD or if Mr. E couldn't have lost if he didn't SD.

 

[DariusM27]

DDD has always given me trouble. It always feels like an accomplishment when I beat him.

I made a few mistakes here. I wanted to full hop fair and land into shield then punish his approach with up b, but I didn't pull it off.

However, I did land nair1 to fsmash ftw, so whatevs.

I get that string alot. Got it in this Roy match too. It was nasty, lol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBUbe2heI6A

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=czilzn18AoI

 

[DariusM27]

Good stuff from Mr E a few weeks ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw3KQvpzoME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_HIEMVxbrU

 

[Turrin]

Hey Marth players - I've been working on my pocket Marth the last few days, this is a Bo3 against my brother's Ike. Any critique welcome. Are there any bread+butter techniques I'm missing? Better approaches besides Fair and dash-grab? Let me know.

 

[IthoughtMarthwasagirl]

Hi, here are two videos of me fighting against a decent Pit-player at the Anvil Smash weekly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxmqBYKfHt0
I lose in this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y75Cf5nwAI
And I win in that one.

Tell me what I have to improve on or what I should implement. Thank you .

 

[moofpi]

FiS10 Winner's Finals
Nicko (Marth) vs Jonny Westside (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxgjrF5dbDM

Grand Finals
Nicko (Shulk/Marth) vs S2H (Diddy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4hUkg1rqa4

He goes Shulk the first two matches then Marth. The first match was especially good Shulk play if you're interested.

 

[Ffamran]

8 matches between Marth and Ike players were uploaded on terminalkai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZLikdcRVk. Different players, so have fun, enjoy, and critique away.

 

[DariusM27]

8 matches between Marth and Ike players were uploaded on terminalkai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZLikdcRVk. Different players, so have fun, enjoy, and critique away.

I didn't really care for those matches. None of them had mastered their own character.

Here's a funny match of some destruction of a FG shulk. I wouldn't have taken so much damage if lag didn't mess up my inputs at the beginning.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K3KNs3Sh7iQ

 

[Joaco]

Can you guys help me improve my Marth? I appreciate it. (I'm the blue one)

 

[DariusM27]

Can you guys help me improve my Marth? I appreciate it. (I'm the blue one)

Marth plays differently in ditto than in other matchups.

Other than just playing solid fundamentals, here's a few particular tricks I use in Neutral.

-Run towards opponent and airdodge through them and then bair.
-Use Dancing blade up when you find an opening. Go for juggles.
-After conditioning the Dancing blade approach, start going for grabs, dthrow, uair. If you have no rage, you can still get the uair if you jump frame perfect, and get kills at 110%. If your percent is 40% or higher, grab to fthrow off stage, or dthrow into jump to up b.
-Keep spacing and pressure with well timed fairs and nairs, as both an offensive and defensive tool.

There's plenty more, but that's a good place to start.

 

[Ffamran]

Mr. E's Marth vs. MikeKirby's Kirby (Winners Bracket): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wyt4kZmb8g.

Mr. E's Sheik and Marth vs. JohnNumbers's Wii Fit Trainer (Winners Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU82hGIXfOI.

Mr. E's Marth vs. MikeKirby's Kirby (Losers Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFMItmhSr00.

Mr. E's Sheik and Marth vs. JohnNumbers's Wii Fit Trainer (Grand Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98noX9Ogwsk.

 

[Vipermoon]

Mr. E's Marth vs. MikeKirby's Kirby (Winners Bracket): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wyt4kZmb8g.

Mr. E's Sheik and Marth vs. JohnNumbers's Wii Fit Trainer (Winners Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU82hGIXfOI.

Mr. E's Marth vs. MikeKirby's Kirby (Losers Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFMItmhSr00.

Mr. E's Sheik and Marth vs. JohnNumbers's Wii Fit Trainer (Grand Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98noX9Ogwsk.

Man.... are you like (youtube) subscribed to every streamer ever?

 

[Ffamran]

Man.... are you like subscribed to every streamer ever?

Nope, I just checked the Greninja boards' video thread, clicked a link since the poster mentioned Nebulous Prime, browsed the channel, and lo, and behold, Mr. E! After that, I checked to see if the Marth boards had his set linked and they didn't so I posted them.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

Brawl+Melee marth main here, new main in sm4sh is metaknight but I still like to relive the past posting so that I can get notifications, because i love watching actual gud marth play.

 

[DariusM27]

Mr. E's Marth vs. MikeKirby's Kirby (Winners Bracket): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wyt4kZmb8g.

Mr. E's Sheik and Marth vs. JohnNumbers's Wii Fit Trainer (Winners Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU82hGIXfOI.

Mr. E's Marth vs. MikeKirby's Kirby (Losers Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFMItmhSr00.

Mr. E's Sheik and Marth vs. JohnNumbers's Wii Fit Trainer (Grand Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98noX9Ogwsk.

Mr E needs to work on his Wii Fit Matchup. Also, he did some unnecessary things, like going for usmash a few times to punish ledge get up, even though Mr E had the lead. I think he should have tried to bait more. When he did use airdodges, it tended to go in his favor.

 

[Joaco]

Thanks Darius :3

 

[DariusM27]

Thanks Darius :3

Here's a recent ditto of mine. The other Marth honestly isn't that great. And I took more damage than I should have. Also, when I'm not down by much, I do play more risky. Playing cautious as Marth really doesn't pay off, imo. But there's a balance, it's calculated risk, not just willy nilly. But the general idea of going for attacks and then also grabs is still in play, and I think that's definitely a big thing the other Marth was missing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akl6E3VuCG8

 

[H-O-G]

I got a video of me vs a Rob on smash ladder Chk it out
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EExbLHoOhyo

 

[DariusM27]

I got a video of me vs a Rob on smash ladder Chk it out
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EExbLHoOhyo

Good stuff! I think the nair gave you the knockback and time needed for that setup. Rob takes that string hard. You probably could have played safer in general, but marth needs to keep the pressure up to be effective, and you did that well.

 

[DariusM27]

"Godlike roll punish"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XgAJbY-yprg

So, I get this setup all the time. In this case, I read the roll, but I could have used it differently.

If you aren't using this combo, that's like Pikachu not using Uthrow to down b or Sheik not using...anything, lol.

I'm not joking. I get this setup all the time, so much it gets old, but I never see other marth's use it. Like, wtf ppl?

You can use it to punish dash attacks, dash grabs, spot dodges, roll punishes, the list goes on.

I think it's marth's best kill setup.

Also, fair, uair, bair, and even dair out of airdodge all have excellent uses also.

Ps - If your Nair1 lands with you right next to the opponent instead of within tipper range, it's often best to usmash instead, or grab and Dolphin Slash are also great options, especially at low percents.
And with the Fsmash, don't forget to use run cancelling to help perfectly spacing the tipper.

 

[Foodies]

I've found it's escapable a lot of the time (character dependent really, and it works better at higher rage and on characters with no fast aerials) and nair1 lacks range. Play dittos and get DSed out of it if your opponent reacts properly. It would only be able to punish all that stuff you listed if you are already in the air when they do those actions. Which means your opponent messing up or you read them. You generally don't want to be be jumping around in neutral because a lot of characters can catch your landings easily.

It's one of Marth's only kill setups (the other being jab, dthrow tipper uair with proper conditioning...that's all I can think of now) so not much competition there lol.

It is definitely a usable option, but your post overhypes it in my opinion. I still use it but most of the time I go for nair1 utilt/jab because those are faster options that can lead to more stringing. I only go for fsmash when untippered will kill because it is usually untippered from my experience rip.

 

[Vipermoon]

I've found it's escapable a lot of the time (character dependent really, and it works better at higher rage and on characters with no fast aerials) and nair1 lacks range. Play dittos and get DSed out of it if your opponent reacts properly. It would only be able to punish all that stuff you listed if you are already in the air when they do those actions. Which means your opponent messing up or you read them. You generally don't want to be be jumping around in neutral because a lot of characters can catch your landings easily.

It's one of Marth's only kill setups (the other being jab, dthrow tipper uair with proper conditioning...that's all I can think of now) so not much competition there lol.

It is definitely a usable option, but your post overhypes it in my opinion. I still use it but most of the time I go for nair1 utilt/jab because those are faster options that can lead to more stringing. I only go for fsmash when untippered will kill because it is usually untippered from my experience rip.

I agree except you get the tipper by a drifted-back Nair 1. If you don't do that then yes, non tipper.

 

[Ffamran]

More of Mr. E's Marth. Of the 3 uploaded sets of Mr. E, only 2 had him use Marth; the other was his Sheik vs. 6WX's Sonic.

Mr. E's Marth vs. Nairo's ZSS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRNF7QoNEdU. Here is one thing I remember Emblem Lord saying about ZSS vs. Marth: ZSS stomps on all sword characters (at the time before Cloud and potentially Corrin). That is all. Oh, and it's versus Nairo, so...

Mr. E's Marth vs. Venom's Ryu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGevZabfHOc. All I can say is this looks rough as hell and the Focus Attack cushioning made it feel like Venom was playing Brawl and hit stun canceling everything Mr. E threw at him. Marth's Dancing Blade seems iffy... I don't know if Mr. E's messing up the inputs or if you really can't transition faster... Meanwhile, Brawl Dancing Blade.

 

[DariusM27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPYi5ALuaJ4

Mr E putting on a clinic on what not to do vs a Capt Falcon. If Mr E used airdodge more, he would have had more of an advantage/mix up.

 

[DariusM27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv3Btw2aols

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzKZfx377-A

Here's some quality Lucina play from MVG Ryo, who is just awesome in general, but posting because the use of Nair1 is on point for the killsetups, which definitely apply for marth also.

 

[DariusM27]

I've posted this tech before, but it's been awhile.

So, this is how marth gets his earliest possible kills after shieldbreaks.

I broke Cloud's shield at 18%, then walked him to the edge from center stage and then I jumped back for the tipper setup.

No other way of setting up the tipper kill is as consistently quick and reliable. The flashiness is an added bonus.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TpyqjNT2-eM

 

[Bowserboy3]

I just finished a few games against great Marth player, BelakXvibe, a YouTuber. I'm uploading a few of the games I had against him, but here was one of my better performances vs him. I'm Marth, he's the Black one.

Anything I can improve on, or any tips?

 

[DariusM27]

I just finished a few games against great Marth player, BelakXvibe, a YouTuber. I'm uploading a few of the games I had against him, but here was one of my better performances vs him. I'm Marth, he's the Black one.

Anything I can improve on, or any tips?

Legit gameplay man.

I respect the use of nair1 fastfall. Just don't get punished for it. If the other marth sees you do this, if they wanted they could rush in with a quick fair or db and get you pretty good.
But you did kind of bait the roll and punished it nicely with the nair1, so again...respect!

Another thing, just like you stall and wait to land or use nair1, do the same thing with fair.

Also, airdodge to uair has good coverage if you get the uair out asap. If you haven't been doing this much lately, try it and see if you can bait an attack and punish with the uair.

Finally, if you really want to dominate marth, use dancing blade up version, instead of down, imo. After the last hit, go for uair or wait for landing and catch the landing with...another db up version.
When he comes back down after eating consistent db attacks, he'll be conditioned for you to get a grab Dthrow.
After Dthrow use up b.

Do that a few times. That's how you reck someone in Marth dittos, imo.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah, Marth can Dolphin Slash out of DB4-down due to frame 1 invincibility. He can sometimes even Counter (frame 5) or Uair (frame 5) out of it at low percents/rage.

At very low percents after DB-forward-forward-forward-then Up you can go for tipper Utilt. You have frame advantage if they air dodge then land. Getting behind your opponent instead works very well at least once.

More use of your Tilts in general would be cool. If you haven't already, change your C-stick to Attack. In my opinion, this is essential in being 'successful' with Marth. All 3 of his Tilts have great, distinct uses.

Utilt will anti-air and start and finish combos. Ftilt will also anti-air and finish combos. It's good for killing and as a high damage punish. You don't to risk using Fsmash because of its risk. You also don't want to stale Fsmash so that when you do need it, it will kill. Dtilt is really good at low percents where it mostly leads into Dancing Blade. It's also amazing to cover rolls due to low lag. Using it leaves you crouched so it could also avoid attacks. Lastly, sour Dtilt will deal tumble knockback at percents over 100 and due to the low hitlag from a sourspt, it's really hard to tech. If you get the knockdown it could lead into an Usmash or Dolphin Slash kill after a read (a lot of people will roll away).

Edit: another great way to cover rolls is short hop fast fall Nair. Marth is susceptible to being rolled behind so watch out

 

[DariusM27]

Yeah, Marth can Dolphin Slash out of DB4-down due to frame 1 invincibility. He can sometimes even Counter (frame 5) or Uair (frame 5) out of it at low percents/rage.

At very low percents after DB-forward-forward-forward-then Up you can go for tipper Utilt. You have frame advantage if they air dodge then land. Getting behind your opponent instead works very well at least once.

More use of your Tilts in general would be cool. If you haven't already, change your C-stick to Attack. In my opinion, this is essential in being 'successful' with Marth. All 3 of his Tilts have great, distinct uses.

Utilt will anti-air and start and finish combos. Ftilt will also anti-air and finish combos. It's good for killing and as a high damage punish. You don't to risk using Fsmash because of its risk. You also don't want to stale Fsmash so that when you do need it, it will kill. Dtilt is really good at low percents where it mostly leads into Dancing Blade. It's also amazing to cover rolls due to low lag. Using it leaves you crouched so it could also avoid attacks. Lastly, sour Dtilt will deal tumble knockback at percents over 100 and due to the low hitlag from a sourspt, it's really hard to tech. If you get the knockdown it could lead into an Usmash or Dolphin Slash kill after a read (a lot of people will roll away).

Edit: another great way to cover rolls is short hop fast fall Nair. Marth is susceptible to being rolled behind so watch out

Uses of fsmash
-Run cancel fsmash (forward and back) VITAL for landing tipper.

-Frame perfect pivot fsmash.
That is, doing a run to pivot fsmash as early as possible with no charge, because if you charge you slide away from target.

Usage - say you break a shield, or someone is going to land next to where you are, or someone rolls to where you are.
Using pivot fsmash as quickly as possible results in the tip landing perfectly on the opponent who was right next to you. Basically guaranteed.

Those two uses of smash c stick is worth keeping it set to smash.

Using tilts without c stick is simple.

Doing a reverse run cancel fsmash is very hard, and doing a frame perfect pivot fsmash is basically impossible.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcwO9gOMN0

In this video I land a very fast pivot fsmash, which I had great control of with c stick. Trying this without stick just wouldn't be reliable.

To be honest, that's exactly why Mr E and definitely Neo miss easy fsmash tips and even fail to input fsmash correctly at times.

 

[countchrisdo]

Can I have some criticism/critique on my Marth and playstyle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc6AiBmNzdk This footage is from the semi-finals at a local tourney.

I can definitely say I was being sloppy (For example my b-airs instead of retreating f-airs) which I think it because of the weird transition from the 3ds to gamecube controller but that's my only john and I won't be able to use it much longer because I'm planning on getting the gamecube extension for my 3ds for practice.

 

[Vipermoon]

Uses of fsmash
-Run cancel fsmash (forward and back) VITAL for landing tipper.

-Frame perfect pivot fsmash.
That is, doing a run to pivot fsmash as early as possible with no charge, because if you charge you slide away from target.

Usage - say you break a shield, or someone is going to land next to where you are, or someone rolls to where you are.
Using pivot fsmash as quickly as possible results in the tip landing perfectly on the opponent who was right next to you. Basically guaranteed.

Those two uses of smash c stick is worth keeping it set to smash.

Using tilts without c stick is simple.

Doing a reverse run cancel fsmash is very hard, and doing a frame perfect pivot fsmash is basically impossible.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcwO9gOMN0

In this video I land a very fast pivot fsmash, which I had great control of with c stick. Trying this without stick just wouldn't be reliable.

To be honest, that's exactly why Mr E and definitely Neo miss easy fsmash tips and even fail to input fsmash correctly at times.

I can do those things just fine with the A button. The other 2 Smash attacks are even easier with the A button of course. But yes there are rare moments when I want a Fsmash and I get Ftilt. A + B Fsmash is a solution for this but I cannot reliably press A and B at the same time so that's off the table.

But in Smash 4, C-stick Tilt is the best way to go for most characters and especially for Marth. That last sentence is basically common knowledge. The highest level players like ZeRo use it.

For Marth (especially for my Marth since I keep Tap Jump on) the ability to quickly Utilt is imperative (it even acts as a 'combo break' sometimes because of that low start-up). Walking Dtilt is very good with this Marth who usually finds himself with worse options than better characters. An immediate Dtilt in general is too good to ignore. Every frame counts. If there was a patch that significantly decreased the start-up of all of Marth's Tilts people would go crazy. Well set C-stick to Tilt and you're doing to same thing as that hypothetical patch.

Also it's very easy for me to do frame percent short hop Uairs with the combination of Tilt Stick and Tap Jump. If I tried that the same way with Smash stick I'd get Usmash.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't think any boards have a dedicated doubles video thread, but Pugwest's Marth and Marss's ZSS team sets are up on showdowngg: Pugwest and Marss vs. Nairo's ZSS and ZeRo's Diddy (Winners Round 1): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWABthemnho.

Pugwest and Marss vs. Dabuz's Rosalina and Hyuga's Toon Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDo7l_LcUMk.

Pugwest and Marss vs. Abadango's Meta Knight and Mr. R's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR990_fjt5s.

Pugwest and Marss vs. Nairo and ZeRo's Sheik (Losers Quarters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2bnnrzgmqs.

 

[DariusM27]

I can do those things just fine with the A button. The other 2 Smash attacks are even easier with the A button of course. But yes there are rare moments when I want a Fsmash and I get Ftilt. A + B Fsmash is a solution for this but I cannot reliably press A and B at the same time so that's off the table.

But in Smash 4, C-stick Tilt is the best way to go for most characters and especially for Marth. That last sentence is basically common knowledge. The highest level players like ZeRo use it.

For Marth (especially for my Marth since I keep Tap Jump on) the ability to quickly Utilt is imperative (it even acts as a 'combo break' sometimes because of that low start-up). Walking Dtilt is very good with this Marth who usually finds himself with worse options than better characters. An immediate Dtilt in general is too good to ignore. Every frame counts. If there was a patch that significantly decreased the start-up of all of Marth's Tilts people would go crazy. Well set C-stick to Tilt and you're doing to same thing as that hypothetical patch.

Also it's very easy for me to do frame percent short hop Uairs with the combination of Tilt Stick and Tap Jump. If I tried that the same way with Smash stick I'd get Usmash.

I can do sh uairs no problem, but usually utilt is the better option.

I am highly skeptical of anyone being able to do marth's pivot fsmash at the earliest possible moment with any consistency. I'll believe it when I see it.

Like, standing next to opponent, and doing pivot fsmash than lands tip, with consistency.

I practiced with a button, I'd get dash attack or pivot ftilt or the fsmash would charge or come out late. Again, I just doubt it's ability to be consistent with a button.

I also am skeptical of someone being able to do reverse and forward dash cancel fsmashes consistently without cstick.

I like to have increased control of fsmash.

The only frame advantage you might get with marth is on his dtilt with cstick, but it's very minimal.

 

[MarMarTheGreat]

Can I have some criticism/critique on my Marth and playstyle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc6AiBmNzdk This footage is from the semi-finals at a local tourney.

I can definitely say I was being sloppy (For example my b-airs instead of retreating f-airs) which I think it because of the weird transition from the 3ds to gamecube controller but that's my only john and I won't be able to use it much longer because I'm planning on getting the gamecube extension for my 3ds for practice.

The main problem is how you handled cloud..You played way too close and aggresive which is not good against Cloud..I generally space out and play very defensive and bait Cloud into making mistakes and capitilizing with like dash up smashes or just combo him till I kill him with a Fair or Nair

Marth seems to have a disadvantage against Cloud anyway since Cloud is really good..But I tend to space out and bait and I get a win and sometimes even 2 stock if I edgeguard correctly

Play more defensive is what I advice and dont use moves with lag often which leaves you open and allows a player as powerful as cloud to do some heavy damage against you.

This is coming from my own experiences against Cloud mains and your footage.

 

[countchrisdo]

The main problem is how you handled cloud..You played way too close and aggresive which is not good against Cloud..I generally space out and play very defensive and bait Cloud into making mistakes and capitilizing with like dash up smashes or just combo him till I kill him with a Fair or Nair

Marth seems to have a disadvantage against Cloud anyway since Cloud is really good..But I tend to space out and bait and I get a win and sometimes even 2 stock if I edgeguard correctly

Play more defensive is what I advice and dont use moves with lag often which leaves you open and allows a player as powerful as cloud to do some heavy damage against you.

This is coming from my own experiences against Cloud mains and your footage.

Thank you that's very helpful